Is it faith alone??

Thiscrosshurts · Sep 16, 2012

Faith or works,hmmm

John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It seems that the works we are to perform is to believe and how can we believe without faith.
There is only one way to please God and that is by having faith that the one whom he sent accomplished the work that he was sent to do.

Christ4Ever · Sep 17, 2012

It's not really about Salvation, given a choice, one can easily see that it's by faith and not works. Also, it's not faith or works, rather faith/works.

Now when one talks about faith/works, outside of the aspect of salvation, it moves into the arena of are you an active servant of the Lord? As one can see below out of Titus, there are people who really do profess to know God, but their works are evidence to this not being the case.

Titus 1:16
(16) They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

So the person who believes that "Hey I'm saved, let me go enjoy the world." will be bitterly surprised that they are "chaff" and not "wheat". Because they don't know God. Our God is not lazy, and neither are His Children. Instead of looking to be guided by the Holy Spirit within us, to be of service. Also, looking for opportunities to do so, some would continue desiring nothing, and giving nothing awaiting the Day of the Lord. Similar to the man who was given coin and buried it. Matthew 25:14 - 30

Instead of trusting that the Holy Spirit to guide them in what to say. They instead give into fear of maybe doing something wrong, or saying the wrong thing. Staying quiet, comfortable in doing nothing to further the Kingdom of God. To this one, I say wake up! Time is short, the end nearing, spread His Word, hesitantly, lowly, with no learning, with cracked voice, fear in your throat. Just Do It! A kind word, a helping hand, opportunities all in sharing the Word of God! Ask if they mind a few questions....Do you go to Church? Do you know Jesus? Takes less than a few seconds to do this. Scary at first!!!! Be Bold! Even if it comes out a squeak. Don't worry! You have help in the Holy Spirit! You have your own testimony by which you can allow the Holy Spirit to touch that other person.

Sorry folks. Moved into evangelism. :embarasse

You know that works, can be just about anything when guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet in it all, keep in mind that you are also an example. Those who sit idly by waiting for the Day of the Lord, are sadly providing a poor one. Sometimes this might be the perception of others of those who say faith only. Nothing further from the truth. Faith is active, not stagnant. Allowing faith to work in you and through you is to say the least; uplifting!

Active faith can enter your life here at TJ as well. Looking at "New Posts" and being moved to reply to one. Seeing someone that needs prayer, and taking that few minutes to pray for that person. This also, is faith in action. Allowing oneself to be that vessel for God to use. Embracing what you are being moved to do. This is faith/works. Moving from inaction to action. Don't bury that precious gift! And what a Gift it is and at what a cost! Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia!

Thanks brothers & sisters for allowing me to spout off. I've beat that rug enough the strands are coming out of it
God Bless and take care.
YBIC
C4E

Final note: For those who say you can't have it both ways, all they have to do is read the postings on this thread. Unless you can see into the heart of that person, one does not know who is the recipient of Salvation. I can shout for the rest of life on top of a mountain that I am saved, I am saved, I am saved. But if that's all I'm doing, I would doubt me being saved! As would anyone else who has read scripture.

Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Just try, what do you have to lose?

Peace Seeker · Sep 18, 2012

Christ4Ever said:
Now when one talks about faith/works, outside of the aspect of salvation, it moves into the arena of are you an active servant of the Lord? As one can see below out of Titus, there are people who really do profess to know God, but their works are evidence to this not being the case.

Titus 1:16
(16) They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

So the person who believes that "Hey I'm saved, let me go enjoy the world." will be bitterly surprised that they are "chaff" and not "wheat". Because they don't know God.

Hi Christ4Ever. I believe all Christians intrinsically have (or will have) works because their works are preordained by God, and He always accomplishes what He sets out to do.

Ephesians 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We are not saved by including works with our faith (that would turn Christ's free gift into a reward), but we are saved unto works. It's not about us (our works), it's all about Jesus working in us.

Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

And your Titus 1:16 quote is referring to people with bad behavior, especially "they of the circumcision", aka the judaizers. So I don't think this verse applies to a debate on faith with/without works. Unless you are saying bad behavior = no salvation. So by including this verse are you saying one is only saved if he behaves?

Here's the preceding 5 verse to get more context of what is being said there :

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I can shout for the rest of life on top of a mountain that I am saved, I am saved, I am saved. But if that's all I'm doing, I would doubt me being saved!

I agree that saying something doesn't make it so; it is believing/trusting in Jesus that saves us, not just saying we are saved, as in some positive-thinking kind of way.

One more comment on this statement you made in post #240 :

I also, would not tie my hat to faith without works, because therein lies "chaff", or a fruitless tree worthy of nothing, and giving no honor or glory to God.

Works are the fruit of salvation, not the root, hence the only thing you need to tie your hat to is belief in Jesus Christ, and let Him handle the rest - He doesn't need our help to save us.

Christ4Ever · Sep 18, 2012

Hello my brother in Christ Jesus. Peace be unto you.

Now to your reply.

Peace Seeker said:
Hi Christ4Ever. I believe all Christians intrinsically have (or will have) works because their works are preordained by God, and He always accomplishes what He sets out to do.

Ephesians 2:10
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

If as you say the believer is "intrinsically have (or will have)" works as the byproduct of salvation, won't that then put the unproductive servant's salvation into question? Meaning were they ever saved in the first place? Bare with me a little. Predestined unto God works however, ".....we should...." in the verse, provides us free will of choice to do so or mistakenly as the servant in Matthew that I mentioned to bury it and do nothing and pay the consequences. Yes God could easily force us, but our obedience is freely given. We love, which is sacrificial in nature not coerced which would not allow for free expression of our love for the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. Our desires as believers are to do His Will, yet things will always get in the way, that require us to battle through them in order to do them, that when we do the work it becomes not a chore, but a labor of love. We know that not everyone is so willing to battle, and for whatever reason, will sit on the sidelines awaiting what comes next. This is poor use of the coin given us, by the Master.

Just to let you know I do agree that works "should" be a by product of salvation.

Peace Seeker said:
We are not saved by including works with our faith (that would turn Christ's free gift into a reward), but we are saved unto works. It's not about us (our works), it's all about Jesus working in us.

Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

What I opened my post with was to address not the question of salvation, which I readily agreed is only by faith. Rather faith/works outside of it. Unless by what you're saying above, is that one is yet saved, and we require the work to be finished that is being done by Jesus working in us?

Peace Seeker said:
And your Titus 1:16 quote is referring to people with bad behavior, especially "they of the circumcision", aka the judaizers. So I don't think this verse applies to a debate on faith with/without works. Unless you are saying bad behavior = no salvation. So by including this verse are you saying one is only saved if he behaves?

Here's the preceding 5 verse to get more context of what is being said there :

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Actually it does deal with faith/works. Notice the use of "specially" in the verse 10 that you quoted. This means that it is not only the "Judaizers" as you would say, but others as well who fit into this category.

As far as questioning their salvation, I truly as I stated before cannot see into the heart of person to know if they be saved or not. That their actions might have me leaning more in one direction or the other is true (my imperfection), but the ultimate determination is yet to be made so I won't make that call. Plus it's not my call to make.

My point is that the person who believes that they can do nothing in the service of the Lord, even if it's just putting the coin in the bank, and are comfortable with that; I believe should have a sit down with God and be reading His Word a bit more. Yet more than likely, they won't because being comfortable with a misguided belief that they faith/works is irrelevant, would never inter their thought processes, and if that person is not saved would not be convicted by the Holy Spirit to do it any differently.

I can see this conviction of the Holy Spirit in my own life. One time when driving on a raining day in a hurry to get home, I buzzed right by a person who was walking and getting drenched. This has happened more than once. Sometimes I have turned around, while other times I've pushed that conviction to the background and continued on my way. This is sad on my part, because the sorrow I feel for my inaction is the realization that it's active disobedience on my part and it has continued a pain for another because of it. Very difficult to bare. My tears and pleas for forgiveness on bended knee I am moved to do. Less as time goes by because the Holy Spirit and continued reading of His Word has made me more aware of my surroundings. The more empathy I have for the plight of others, the more I am moved to help, which then becomes a joy and not a task that needs to get done so I can just continue on my merry way.

Peace Seeker said:
Works are the fruit of salvation, not the root, hence the only thing you need to tie your hat to is belief in Jesus Christ, and let Him handle the rest - He doesn't need our help to save us.

Totally agree and you'll not hear me say otherwise
I'm not a fruit eater, but this kind of fruit I love!!!!
YBIC
C4E

bgsda · Sep 18, 2012

TY C4ever. Theres far too many Christians out there that believe in a faith only relationship. In which i dont understand because simply put if they were to only have faith in whatever physical relationshipbthey have now they will no thave one for long. Imagine me telling my wife imnot going to wash the dishes because i have faith they will be clean. Or hold on honey ill pick you right up stay were you are ill stay here and exercise mybfaith, as she is waiting fir me to pick her up at a store. That wouldn,t fly very well.

Like i stated before back in Christs day or the Dark ages with the Catholics(Roman) they had an all works based religion. Nowadays it seems as if they swung the pendullum all the way on the other side and are all ,so called only faith side. Theres seems to be no midddle ground. I pray that people will see that faith without works is DEAD!!! God bless

Thiscrosshurts · Sep 18, 2012

TY C4ever. Theres far too many Christians out there that believe in a faith only relationship. In which i dont understand because simply put if they were to only have faith in whatever physical relationshipbthey have now they will no thave one for long. Imagine me telling my wife imnot going to wash the dishes because i have faith they will be clean. Or hold on honey ill pick you right up stay were you are ill stay here and exercise mybfaith, as she is waiting fir me to pick her up at a store. That wouldn,t fly very well.

That is really an excellent analogy but in this case he is the Husband and we are the bride.
So when he says I will NEVER leave you or forsake you I expect him to do what only he can do.

jari · Sep 18, 2012

hi bgsda

bgsda said:
I pray that people will see that faith without works is DEAD

it maybe dead but its still faith. one shouldn't underestimate the faith given by God. i think in book of james he was addressing the issue of little faith when it needed to grow.... as God would give them more faith than mere belief there is God (like james said this was as far as their faith reached..).

God bless you

David777 · Sep 19, 2012

Hello bgsda.

Your sda theology has you so confused.

Simply put, a person may only ever be justified before God
on the basis of faith. That is what the Gospel declares bgsda,
you misunderstand the Gospel. Works are not mentioned at
the primary level of the Gospel. Works have nothing to do
with salvation, salvation is solely due to believing the Gospel
of Jesus Christ.

Here are some scriptures that state the Gospel.

Rom. 5:1
"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9
"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall
be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 10:9-10 (Gospel of Jesus Christ)
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes,
resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9
"and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God
on the basis of faith."

See bgsda, it is all about faith in Jesus Christ, the Gospel.

If you argue with this primary foundational doctrine you
do not understand the message of the scriptures.

jiggyfly · Sep 19, 2012

bgsda said:
TY C4ever. Theres far too many Christians out there that believe in a faith only relationship. In which i dont understand because simply put if they were to only have faith in whatever physical relationshipbthey have now they will no thave one for long. Imagine me telling my wife imnot going to wash the dishes because i have faith they will be clean. Or hold on honey ill pick you right up stay were you are ill stay here and exercise mybfaith, as she is waiting fir me to pick her up at a store. That wouldn,t fly very well.

Like i stated before back in Christs day or the Dark ages with the Catholics(Roman) they had an all works based religion. Nowadays it seems as if they swung the pendullum all the way on the other side and are all ,so called only faith side. Theres seems to be no midddle ground. I pray that people will see that faith without works is DEAD!!! God bless

And neither is correct, we are to be led by HolySpirit, not religion ( SDA or any other man-made denomination) and not the ten commandments.

WordinTruth · Sep 19, 2012

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

To be justified means to be cleared of all guilt, to be declared innocent, this is a free gift from God. We can not earn the forgiveness of sin, we can only receive the forgiveness and cleansing of our sin by the blood of Christ. Without this free gift we would be defiled forever with no hope of attonement, seperated from God forever to damnation.

Most will stop defining grace at justification but as seen in the original post grace is much more that justification only...

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Here the Word of God shows grace as being the power of Christ resting on us.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Grace is much more powerful than sin and grace teaches us....

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

This is repentance, denying our flesh and living in accordance to the demands of God. Repentance is a gift from God! Through the power of the grace of God resting on us we can deny ungodliness and worldy lusts, and live righteously in this present world. To live righteously is to live without sin, this is only possible by the power of the grace of God in us. We have to learn to fully trust in God and His ability to empower us to live righteously in this present world.

We will definetly make mistakes while learning to trust in God...

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Those who are truely partakers in the grace of God will have freely received the cleansing of all unrighteousness through the blood of Christ, unattainable by any works we could possibly do, and will also have a desire in their heart to live in accordance to the demands of God. Continuing to confess their sins and seeking the power of God to repent, through the convicting power of the Holy Ghost.

We have the freedom to obey God or not but the power to obey can only come from the grace of God.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The election of grace, God chooses us to overcome but we must choose God, praise the LORD!

jari · Sep 19, 2012

to me grace means forgiven of all sin regardless how much we sin. if there would be measure how much we are allowed to sin after receiving grace then it wouldn't be biblical definition of grace , they way i look at it.
since grace covers all sins there isnt some righteuss criteria that we must live up to. but God accepts us as we are, always...

if rightneusnes would be obtainable by other means why would then Jesus have to die?
it's not that the Holy spirit wasnt around in old testament times in israels temples. they too had law to live by to a righteuss life. but they didnt have full forgiveness as we do now. but the law was very condemning. this is why i don't believe we have to live by some standard or law like they did because its really tried already with man.

this is why we should live in God's grace everyday, grace is needed everyday its our forgiveness every moment.

Joh 1:16-17 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

DutchChristian · Sep 19, 2012

jari said:
to me grace means forgiven of all sin regardless how much we sin. if there would be measure how much we are allowed to sin after receiving grace then it wouldn't be biblical definition of grace , they way i look at it.
since grace covers all sins there isnt some righteuss criteria that we must live up to. but God accepts us as we are, always...

if rightneusnes would be obtainable by other means why would then Jesus have to die?
it's not that the Holy spirit wasnt around in old testament times in israels temples. they too had law to live by to a righteuss life. but they didnt have full forgiveness as we do now. but the law was very condemning. this is why i don't believe we have to live by some standard or law like they did because its really tried already with man.

this is why we should live in God's grace everyday, grace is needed everyday its our forgiveness every moment.

Joh 1:16-17 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Hi Jari,

Be careful not to stretch out grace... as you can read here:

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Do not go about to sin just because your under grace! ........................... look up here ^

God forbid!

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

and how about verse 29 of the same chapter? i think your in trouble: it's the way you see grace it is wrong you behold sin too loosely and too easily as it is all supposedly already done away with all in advance all your sin is already all forgiven you that's what you think in error! so that you can go to a bar and get several beers (as an example be drunk), you can watch horror movies and go to a night club watch women lustfully or worse but since your under grace now anyway -it all doesn't matter since you're already forgiven in advance of all your sins?

Please be careful now as it doesn't work that way... we must always Repent of sin and confess our sins

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And 1 Peter 1:15-16, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:7, 1 John 3:3, etc...

Take care, GOD is HOLY

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

David777 · Sep 19, 2012

A simple Gospel, a simple message.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes,
resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Now that you have read the Gospel you will understand
that there is no additional requirement. God has spoken
and declared for eternity that salvation is only available
through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Should you be of any other opinion please read
the following important line.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Nothing except Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!

No theology, no laws, no traditions, nothing
except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

The very simple Gospel.

Peace Seeker · Sep 19, 2012

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Christ4Ever said:

Hello my brother in Christ Jesus. Peace be unto you.

Click to expand...

Hello again, brother. Thank you, peace be with you as well!

If as you say the believer is "intrinsically have (or will have)" works as the byproduct of salvation, won't that then put the unproductive servant's salvation into question? Meaning were they ever saved in the first place?

Click to expand...

No, I don't think so, because judgment will be about works, not salvation. Do you agree that our works will be judged and if they are burned up we will suffer loss, nonetheless we will be saved? (1 Corinthians 3:15)

And I think the Apostle Paul speaks powerfully against works salvation, if I can call it that, in Romans 4 (emphasis in red):

King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Nowto him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Brother, all I can say to that, is WOW! And then I start wondering what kind of works faithful Abraham, with whom God personally made covenants, must have done in his long life. Which leads me to then surmise which of those works made Abraham special before God. We should all know that not one of them made him anything before God. It was his faith, and his faith only, that pleased God and made him righteous before Him.

So, if believing God makes me righteous, can I make myself MORE righteous in any way?

I will enter the place of Judgment with one of two garments. Either my filthy robe of unrighteous rags, or Christ’s spotless robe of righteousness.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, and allourrighteousness is like filthy rags;
Romans 3:10
As it is written, “There is none righteousness, no, not one”
2 Corinthians 5:21)
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

The bible gives us a clear picture about how important this “robe of righteousness” is in the parable in Matthew 22:1-5, 8-14 :

And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.
Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.'
But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business.
Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’

So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.

So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.
Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’For many are called, but few are chosen.”

PART 2 TO FOLLOW :::::::::::

jari · Sep 19, 2012

DutchChristian said:
Hi Jari,

Be careful not to stretch out grace... as you can read here:

i already said i dont believe you can get out of grace. only by being legalistic you can be not in grace......

DutchChristian said:
Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

and how about verse 29 of the same chapter? i think your in trouble: it's the way you see grace it is wrong you behold sin too loosely and too easily as it is all supposedly already done away with all in advance all your sin is already all forgiven you that's what you think in error! so that you can go to a bar and get several beers (as an example be drunk), you can watch horror movies and go to a night club watch women lustfully or worse but since your under grace now anyway -it all doesn't matter since you're already forgiven in advance of all your sins?

that's not what wilful sin means.
wilful means your doing it knowing it's wrong but you dont care either. knowing it will damage the spiritual relationship between you and God but you dont care but you let sin reign. it's talking about rebellion and apostasy when you don't care about God anymore but want to sin after coming to the "knowledge of the truth".
now we all sin but none of us does it wilfully unless we rebel against God and say we dont want Him anymore.
we just sin because we are humans.

there maybe fineline between wilful sin and unintentional. trying to avoid sin can lead to legalism but not resisting sin is covered by God's grace. However our response to God's grace is whole another story and if we follow the bible we should resist sin.

Still cross of Jesus is the foundation always.

God bless you

Peace Seeker · Sep 19, 2012

PART 2 :

I had to break my post up into 2 parts because I kept going over the maximum allowed 30,000 character. Anyway, here's where I left off :

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> The wedding garment is the robe of Christ's righteousness. If we are wearing any other robe we won't be allowed to take part in the wedding feast!
We get that robe by faith and nothing else. Will any amount of religious activity on our part, any self-efforts gain us that robe or allow us to keep it? Faith by God’s grace is what gave it to us and faith by God’s grace is what will enable us to keep it on.

If I try to convince a person that he must do more than simply put his trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross to get saved, and stay saved, I would be teaching him error. Works salvation complicates the simplicity of salvation by grace, and grace alone.

Also, there is "positional" and "progressive" sanctification that would need to be considered in light of your questions, not to mention the continually faithful intercession of our High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ for us. We screw up, He intercedes. We have no idea how much love and grace He bestows upon us every moment of our lives.

To further expand my statement about when we screw up, what if a Christian screws up for most of His life? I'm sure you'll agree that such a person would be condemned by some of those in the works + faith camp, who, seeing nothing but screw-ups, failures and apparently rotten fruit in his life, would pronounce his faith to be in vain, that he is not,and probably never was, a believer in the first place. Etc.! However, the ultimate and ONLY work that matters in the believer's life is that he continue to trust in Christ's complete and soul-saving righteousness, which is wrought through His shed blood, death, burial and resurrection, and nothing else.

You see, we as Christians tend to always look at the present results (and at appearances), while Christ always looks at and is concerned with the end result. Many Christians will be as brands plucked from the fire, entering heaven the hard way, while others will breeze in to the kingdom, so to speak. So I will venture to say that the former group bring God as much, or even more glory than those who have been "good", productive Christians all their lives, faithful movers and shakers that have spent their talents to the max. This is why I believe we shouldn't look at and judge others' Christian walk with God. What we see in the present is not synonymous with what God sees as the end result.

I believe that God will find a way to bring home all who have faith in and believe in Him. Whereas I suspect some Christians think that not to be the case, that it is up to how we perform down here that determines where we go when we leave this earth.

Regarding, again, the unproductive servant parable, is the gospel message, "use your talents, or else"? The "else" being loss of salvation?

Can I lose my salvation if I don't work? If so, how much work would be needed to keep it? No one in the faith + works camp ever answers that question. Why?

Our desires as believers are to do His Will, yet things will always get in the way, that require us to battle through them in order to do them, that when we do the work it becomes not a chore, but a labor of love. We know that not everyone is so willing to battle, and for whatever reason, will sit on the sidelines awaiting what comes next. This is poor use of the coin given us, by the Master.

Yes, no doubt, sitting on the sidelines is a poor use of the coin given us. But I am rich in salvation in Christ, regardless of how I spend his earthly gifts. Also, regarding our work being a chore or a joy, I think if it is the former there is something wrong with that picture. "Freely we have been given, freely give". God loves a cheerful giver, etc. When we have Christ's living waters flowing in us, they will flow out of us. But that is not to say that the waters aren't flowing if we can't see them flowing with our eyes. Maybe we just have a log of pride and self-righteousness in our eye that hinders us from seeing Christ in that other person, whose works (or lack thereof) we are looking down upon. You know what I mean?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I think that statement is more profound than it looks on the surface, as any atheist's actions towards the gospel attest that it is a very hard work to BELIEVE. So believing is faith and a work!!

Originally Posted by Peace Seeker
We are not saved by including works with our faith (that would turn Christ's free gift into a reward), but we are saved unto works. It's not about us (our works), it's all about Jesus working in us.

Philippians 2:13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Actually it does deal with faith/works. Notice the use of "specially" in the verse 10 that you quoted. This means that it is not only the "Judaizers" as you would say, but others as well who fit into this category.

But the people in this example are obviously wolves in sheep's clothing, specifically (but not exclusively) Judaizers, those believing in Jewish fables and perverting the church with their doctrines and commandments of men, making the word of God of none effect through their traditions.

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

What I opened my post with was to address not the question of salvation, which I readily agreed is only by faith. Rather faith/works outside of it. Unless by what you're saying above, is that one is yet saved, and we require the work to be finished that is being done by Jesus working in us?

No, not at all. Jesus' work was finished at the cross, there's nothing I can do to supplement what He did for me.

As far as questioning their salvation, I truly as I stated before cannot see into the heart of person to know if they be saved or not. That their actions might have me leaning more in one direction or the other is true (my imperfection), but the ultimate determination is yet to be made so I won't make that call. Plus it's not my call to make.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I do not look at another Christian and make judgments about their profession of faith based on how they are living, i.e. what works they are or aren't doing.

PART 3 TO FOLLOW :::::::

Peace Seeker · Sep 19, 2012

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PART 3 OF 3 :

My point is that the person who believes that they can do nothing in the service of the Lord, even if it's just putting the coin in the bank, and are comfortable with that; I believe should have a sit down with God and be reading His Word a bit more. Yet more than likely, they won't because being comfortable with a misguided belief that they faith/works is irrelevant, would never inter their thought processes, and if that person is not saved would not be convicted by the Holy Spirit to do it any differently.

I understand the point you're making. I am not against being a productive Christian, what I am against is the concept put forth by many, that if we aren't productive it means we aren't saved.

Regarding being comfortable, I am comfortable that God has given me eternal life, which is wrought by grace through the faith He has given me. I am comfortable with the notion that I have no righteousness apart from that which Christ has imparted to me.

I am comfortable with the notion that Mother Teresa was not made righteous by even one small or large work she did. Neither are we made righteous (which means saved) by any work we do. I don't know what faith she had, but her works didn't enter in to it.

So why so much emphasis on works? Where is the emphasis on our Lord, JESUS CHRIST? Can you imagine taking the staggering ramifications of the WORK Jesus did for us on the cross (so we wouldn't have to work, like our O.T., old covenant ancestors had to) and saying, "yeah, but it wasn't enough"? I think that would be a faith + works kind of attitude.

Yes, I know, those in the faith/works camp insist they understand and believe that we are only saved by grace through faith, and say that works don't save us. Yet by their actions they show that that is not the case. It's always a case of, "I believe in grace only, BUT......."; the "but" being a long laundry list of why works need to be manifested and apparent in our lives, otherwise we should have our salvation questioned.

Should we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me, now I will do my part by working to keep saved"? Does God require something in exchange from me?

Salvation was never a transaction, it is always a gift. And if we "work" to keep saved, by adding works to faith, it turns grace into a transaction. Grace is the only way we receive salvation, works are simply a way of showing the world we are saved, because they can't see into our heart to know of the saving faith that is in it.

Do you think works are a requirement of any sort? I know lots of Christians do.

I don't know if I will be able to properly convey this thought I just had, but I'll try : who is most comfortable (and as such in agreement with) with his salvation, one who worries that it requires work, or one who doesn't? I am not stressed out about works, because I trust the Father that they are predetermined to be made manifest in my life. Not according to my plans or schedule, but according to His. And they will be manifest in my life because of God working in me, not because I am constantly thinking about it.

Do you have to think about going to church? How about being kind to a neighbor? Or being Christ-like? Are these conscious actions, or subconscious actions? Are they effortless, or done with effort? If they are conscious actions that require effort, or forethought, then maybe, just maybe, they are works of the flesh disguised as works of the spirit.

When we are born again we become a new creation, with the old passed away. We don't become new creations that need to try to act new, we act new because we are new. What's my point? Simply, why would we need to strive to act differently - ie: strive to do good works - if we are different?

Did you worry about your "works" before you were saved? So why do you worry about them now that you are?

Salvation = worry? Salvation = stress? Salvation = burden? Salvation = performance? Salvation = work, or else?

I'm sorry, I do not believe that to be the case. Salvation = gift, rest, completion, trust, faith, believing, not any of those other things, my brother.

I can see this conviction of the Holy Spirit in my own life. One time when driving on a raining day in a hurry to get home, I buzzed right by a person who was walking and getting drenched. This has happened more than once. Sometimes I have turned around, while other times I've pushed that conviction to the background and continued on my way. This is sad on my part, because the sorrow I feel for my inaction is the realization that it's active disobedience on my part and it has continued a pain for another because of it. Very difficult to bare. My tears and pleas for forgiveness on bended knee I am moved to do. Less as time goes by because the Holy Spirit and continued reading of His Word has made me more aware of my surroundings. The more empathy I have for the plight of others, the more I am moved to help, which then becomes a joy and not a task that needs to get done so I can just continue on my merry way.

It is wonderful how God works in us to give love towards others! We are His ambassadors, and as such He works through us to accomplish His purposes for the world and to bring glory to Himself. But let me just add, if you didn't turn around to pick up the person standing in the pouring rain, it would just mean you are stiff-necked, and perhaps quenching the Spirit, but it doesn't mean you are not saved. Not to mention, what you or I do, or don't do in that scenario, pertains to our potential rewards in heaven, not to our salvation.

Anyway, the longer I keep typing, the more I will be prone to forgetting what I wanted to say, forgetting what you said and wanted me to answer, never mind outright lapsing into babbling! So I'll leave it that, and get this posted before I am timed-out again!

God bless, brother!

Christ4Ever · Sep 19, 2012

Peace Seeker said:


Hello again, brother. Thank you, peace be with you as well!

No, I don't think so, because judgment will be about works, not salvation. Do you agree that our works will be judged and if they are burned up we will suffer loss, nonetheless we will be saved? (1 Corinthians 3:15)

As we should always greet one another brother! Peace!

We are talking about someone who is saved of cause. Never in question that salvation cannot be lost, the question must be, is that person saved? Were the ones that were spoken of in Titus saved?

I've never been of the belief that someone can lose their salvation, however with caveats I would add "I do believe that one can walk away". Which begs the question again. Were they saved in the first place?

See what I mean? Until that day, or until we can look into the heart of person, we will not know a persons future of Eternal Life or Eternal Damnation. I can say it, believe it, works reflect it, but can another say I am or I am not? So I treat each person with the Love that Christ has placed in me, regardless of the answer, because the reality of it is, that I don't know as a surety that it's yes or no for anyone but myself and that I do with trembling, yet trusting in His Word and His promises therein.

Would love to read it all tonight, but just got back from Church and have long, long, day tomorrow Lord willing tomorrow will provide me more time to look over what you've taken time to write in THREE PARTS no less!!!! :thumbs_up

Just had to drop this line off brother.
YBIC
C4E

brakelite · Sep 20, 2012

When Jesus returns to take His church home, there will be a division between those who are His, and those who are Satan's. (Matthew 25:31-46)

The Bible describes this epochal event as the gathering of the harvest. (Revelation 14:13-20)

One of Jesus' parables tells us vividly that there is a maturation of both the wheat and the tares. (Matthew 13:24-30) Both are fruiting, both are mature, both are ready for harvest. It is the angels work to divide the wheat from the tares. The tares are taken away first, and cast into the fire. (Matthew 13:30)
The wheat is gathered together and taken into God's 'storehouse'. In order to acertain who is the tare and who is the wheat, a judgment must be made. This judgment must be made before the harvest. (Revelation 14:6,7)

It is a judgment based on works, and it is a judgment that decides who is saved and who is lost. (See again Matthew 25:31-46) This is not the great white throne judgment which is an executive judgment pronouncing sentence. This judgment takes place before the second coming. It must, else how will the angels decide between the righteous and the wicked?

Therefore we are judged on the basis of our works, and this judgment determines our eternal destiny.

Revelation 22:11-21 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
¶ He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

My friends and brothers in Christ, the above bolded portion of Jesus' final word to His people is a warning that only those who obey Him have the right to enter in through the gates into heaven. This makes works utterly indespensable. It allows no casual relationship that claims salvation without obedience. It allows no presumptously held belief that claims that sin is now an option. Jesus does not say that all who believe may enter. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Our belief is not a criteria as to whether we are saved or not. Our works of obedience are. This truth is so plain as to defy argument.

What must be decided is how are we to manifest these works of obedience? By our own effort, or by faith???? This my friends is the clincher. It is how and why we work, not whether we work.

Saving faith produces obedience. Not just a "covering", but true practical heart felt loving faithful consecrated obedience to all God's commandments.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
(Turning away from sin).
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Now, to whom does God bestow eternal life???? Is it to them that have faith???? NO! It is .....
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
And to whom is the wrath of God poured out upon? Is it to them who do not have faith??? NO! It is ....
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

jari · Sep 20, 2012

hi brakelite, i just want to say one thing...

brakelite said:
When Jesus returns to take His church home, there will be a division between those who are His, and those who are Satan's. (Matthew 25:31-46)

it says in mat 25 that all nations will be gathered before him. "And before him shall be gathered all nations" - (KJV). and the seperation happens between sheep and goats, this means between non-believers and christians...
i guess you wanted to say that some believers faith does not save them but mat 25 is saying to me that believers are all infact sheeps.

same thing with parable of the tares of the field. Jesus said the field is the world.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

so these parables do not seem to tell that a believer could transition between tare or wheat . but non-believer vs believer in Christ is talked about.

God bless you

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