Who Killed Him?

[amadeus2]

Is any man guilty?

Was everyone born a sinner naturally, or were they rather simply born dead? Once born in the flesh they started to move about and look about and to act. God left in each of these dead a glimmer of Light because He wanted them to be able to obtain more and to see more...

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." Gen 3:7

They had removed the covering that God put on them at creation.

They could see what? Their eyes could see their own exposed selves and...

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:" Gen 3:22

They knew the difference between good and evil. They were able to see and thus remain where? Or what was it that remained in them?

"Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41

They could know or see the good (Gen 3:22), which was God (Mark 10:18):

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man [every man born of flesh, not only those born from above or again] that cometh into the world." John 1:9

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:5

We were the darkness, so dark (so ignorant) that we were unable understand what or who that Light was!

But that Light, which allowed us to see and even to believe, was of an insufficient amount to give us Life:

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:19-20

Believing is fine, but we must move beyond that to obtain unending Life.

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:4

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

What world is Jesus still in...? He is still in any little dab of the world (dirt) formed into a man until the man either puts out the Light or comes to the Light so that it increases in intensity ("more abundantly") within him.

Consider what happens if we do not act upon that little glimmer of Light that we have:

What will happen if we bury it (glimmer of Light) in the ground (Matt 25:25) or hide it under a bushel (Matt 5:15)? Will it not be taken away while we are cast into outer darkness (Matt 25:30) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Who put out the Light? Who killed Christ?

 

[jason h]

Through adam all die. I understand that at my core im a sinner. I didnt sin to become one, I sin because I am one. The sermon on the mount reveals that to me. He reveals that the law actually condems us. We may have not comitted adultry but He reveals that even having a lusting thought makes you one. He revealed that the very fact we lust, or hate or whatever... shows we have the ability and that something is inherintly wrong with us.

I know I dont act perfectly on the information I have. But im not hoping in my ability to. For a long time I thought it fell to me to do all this. I was miserable. Then I realized He lived the perfect life. He paid the price. He is able to make me stand. I have no hope in myself. I'll just mess something up.

The leaders during Jesus time didnt think they needed a savior. They didnt see themselves as a sinner. You get that feel all through the gospels since they generally have this us vs them mentallity towards tax collectors, prostitues, etc... Since they thought they could see and didnt acknowledge they were blind, they were obviously not going to have any need for this Jesus talking with them. The ones with their eyes open were those that saw they had a need. That they were sinners.

As for who killed Christ. I just accept that He went to the cross willingly to pay our debt, mine, yours, everybody. Yes the jews had Him crucified but looking at the bigger picture in light of scripture you see that This was Gods will and also that the jews were somewhat blinded.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

If none of this addressed your question, then I just misunderstood you. hopefully it helps you though.

 

[dorian37grey]

Is any man guilty?

Was everyone born a sinner naturally, or were they rather simply born dead? Once born in the flesh they started to move about and look about and to act. God left in each of these dead a glimmer of Light because He wanted them to be able to obtain more and to see more...

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." Gen 3:7

adam and eve were naked and they hid.
but did adam hide from eve?

leaving the family of god

so we see it is not about being naked ; it is about who we are naked in front of
mankind ( adam and eve) have set themselves into another family
one which makes them hide from their first family ; that being the family of god

now mankind is in a different family , one fathered by the words of satan
all the children
of this new family ( everyone born from this union of adam and eve ; ie; mankind)
is born outside the family of god .

if we re-look
we see the core issue to be
being outside the family of god
and now lawbreaking and sin is a result being out of the family of god

with the wages of sin being death
then we can also say ;
being out of the family of god also leads to death

what does it take to reverse this ?
the answer to this is a kinsman redeemer

a kinsman redeemer must
1- have the price
2- pay the price
3- be of kin

#2; pay the price
mankind has sinned ; and the wages of sin is death
the payment of sin is death
jesus dies; without sin and is owed life

with his death the payment is made
this 'can" take care of what happened after the leaving the family of god
but it still doesn't take care of the issue of nakedness of adam and eve
and there choice of leaving the family of god

#3; must be of kin
jesus is "kin" to each and every one of us , but this doesn't need to be explain here
what does need to be seen now is ;
we need to accept jesus as our ..........................
savior, kinsman redeemer , as family

is mankind guilty?
opinions can be made ;
but what mankind is ( as seen above) he is outside the family of god
and being outside the family of god leads to sin
and sin leads to death

who killed jesus ?
jews?
romans?
all of mankind?

jesus himself says ; i lay down my life ; and i pick it up again

conclusion
jesus came into this world to address the issue of mankind being outside the family of god ; and to provide a way back into that family

 

[amadeus2]

Through adam all die. I understand that at my core im a sinner. I didnt sin to become one, I sin because I am one. The sermon on the mount reveals that to me. He reveals that the law actually condems us. We may have not comitted adultry but He reveals that even having a lusting thought makes you one. He revealed that the very fact we lust, or hate or whatever... shows we have the ability and that something is inherintly wrong with us.

[TABLE="class: MainVerseTable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: VerseHeader"]<nobr></nobr>
[/TD]
[TD="class: VerseBody"]"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: VerseHeader"]<nobr></nobr>
[/TD]
[TD="class: VerseBody"]And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" I John 2:16-17
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

I know I dont act perfectly on the information I have. But im not hoping in my ability to. For a long time I thought it fell to me to do all this. I was miserable. Then I realized He lived the perfect life. He paid the price. He is able to make me stand. I have no hope in myself. I'll just mess something up.

Indeed, our hope is not in ourselves of ourselves. Our Hope is Jesus. Our Hope is Jesus in our heart doing that which we cannot do ourselves.

The leaders during Jesus time didnt think they needed a savior. They didnt see themselves as a sinner. You get that feel all through the gospels since they generally have this us vs them mentallity towards tax collectors, prostitues, etc... Since they thought they could see and didnt acknowledge they were blind, they were obviously not going to have any need for this Jesus talking with them. The ones with their eyes open were those that saw they had a need. That they were sinners.

Doesn't your descriptions here of the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus time in the flesh 2000 years ago remind you of too many who call themselves Christians today? I point no fingers at anyone in particular. May our Lord open our eyes for us and keep them open!

As for who killed Christ. I just accept that He went to the cross willingly to pay our debt, mine, yours, everybody. Yes the jews had Him crucified but looking at the bigger picture in light of scripture you see that This was Gods will and also that the jews were somewhat blinded.

We know from the scriptures that no man really took His natural life from Him. He lay it down voluntarily in accord with God's will. Oh, men drove the nails through the flesh of His body, but as Jesus said to Pontius Pilate:

"...Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." John 19:11

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

And the time of the gentiles is altogether very short indeed and the end comes without warning... other than the warnings that we have already received... if we were able to hear:

"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matt 24:37-39

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

If none of this addressed your question, then I just misunderstood you. hopefully it helps you though.

You did well friend! Thank you for your input. Keep your eyes and ears open!

 

[amadeus2]

adam and eve were naked and they hid.
but did adam hide from eve?

leaving the family of god

so we see it is not about being naked ; it is about who we are naked in front of
mankind ( adam and eve) have set themselves into another family
one which makes them hide from their first family ; that being the family of god

now mankind is in a different family , one fathered by the words of satan

Yes, when they recognized their lack of a proper covering they constructed their own covering, but God had to help them out even in that.

all the children
of this new family ( everyone born from this union of adam and eve ; ie; mankind)
is born outside the family of god .

But... for all of that, in spite of all of that: there is now an open Door because Jesus was not only willing to, but did go ahead and lay down His life for you and me.

if we re-look
we see the core issue to be
being outside the family of god
and now lawbreaking and sin is a result being out of the family of god

with the wages of sin being death
then we can also say ;
being out of the family of god also leads to death

Being on the outside, if one remains there, is being outside of the Hope, which Jesus provided. This failure to take hold of that Hope makes the death which we all had from the beginning of our stay in this flesh a finality for us. This need not be, but for so many it is or will be. Jesus wept!

what does it take to reverse this ?
the answer to this is a kinsman redeemer

a kinsman redeemer must
1- have the price
2- pay the price
3- be of kin

You make it sound so simple... and really it is, isn't it, even if we do no understand all of the details?

#2; pay the price
mankind has sinned ; and the wages of sin is death
the payment of sin is death
jesus dies; without sin and is owed life

with his death the payment is made
this 'can" take care of what happened after the leaving the family of god
but it still doesn't take care of the issue of nakedness of adam and eve
and there choice of leaving the family of god

Jesus had the price of the ticket. No one else did because everyone else was already dead. Their deaths would be meaningless. He had the price and was willing to pay it for you and for me and for whosoever will.

#3; must be of kin
jesus is "kin" to each and every one of us , but this doesn't need to be explain here
what does need to be seen now is ;
we need to accept jesus as our ..........................
savior, kinsman redeemer , as family

And in accepting Jesus we making our subject to Him... to the Father, to God and where needed to chastisement:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons." Heb 12:6-8

is mankind guilty?
opinions can be made ;
but what mankind is ( as seen above) he is outside the family of god
and being outside the family of god leads to sin
and sin leads to death

who killed jesus ?
jews?
romans?
all of mankind?

jesus himself says ; i lay down my life ; and i pick it up again

conclusion
jesus came into this world to address the issue of mankind being outside the family of god ; and to provide a way back into that family

Yes, He came to save that which was lost... if it was willing to be saved. It reminds me of the story of the man who was drowning and after praying to God for help refused the help to more than one who came to pull him out of the water. God had sent those helpers, but because they didn't look like God to him, he refused them. Maybe we need to be able to recognize God when we see Him.

 

[dorian37grey]

Yes, He came to save that which was lost... if it was willing to be saved. It reminds me of the story of the man who was drowning and after praying to God for help refused the help to more than one who came to pull him out of the water. God had sent those helpers, but because they didn't look like God to him, he refused them. Maybe we need to be able to recognize God when we see Him.

lol; i almost used that very story but didnt want the post to be that long

 

[jiggyfly]

Who put out the Light? Who killed Christ?

No one, He gave up His life because it was His Father's will.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes, He came to save that which was lost... if it was willing to be saved.

Do you base this on scripture?

 

[amadeus2]

No one, He gave up His life because it was His Father's will.

Of course Jesus lay down His life as He declared, but does that leave us without guilt? Do we not have the ability to extinguish the Light within us? If we do not then why are we given this warning?

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

 

[amadeus2]

Originally Posted by amadeus2
Yes, He came to save that which was lost... if it was willing to be saved.

jiggyfly: Do you base this on scripture?

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"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10

Look also to David's words to Solomon:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

 

[dorian37grey]

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"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10

Look also to David's words to Solomon:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

absolutly ;

adam and eve where not willing to go along with what god had said;
thus; that loss of family

but for those willing ( to accept) jesus
family is restored

jesus opened the door ;
but it takes are willingness to walk through the door

 

[jiggyfly]

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"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10

Look also to David's words to Solomon:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

I know Jesus came to save those who were lost, it's the second part " if it was willing to be saved" that seems strange to me and the scripture your using is dealing with seeking and finding God not the other way around. Many seem to take scripture out of it's intended context but I think it is better to leave it within it's intended context when forming beliefs.

6 When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.7 Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good.8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.9 And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation.10 For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.11 So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.
Romans 5:6-11 (NLT)

 

[amadeus2]

I know Jesus came to save those who were lost, it's the second part " if it was willing to be saved" that seems strange to me and the scripture your using is dealing with seeking and finding God not the other way around. Many seem to take scripture out of it's intended context but I think it is better to leave it within it's intended context when forming beliefs.

While people may be are willing to be saved, or even want to be saved, they still want put conditions on limitations on it: "I want to be saved, but..."

"But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage." II Kings 5:11-12

He placed conditions on being saved from his leprosy. Fortunately, he was convinced by his servants to go ahead and obey the prophet:

"And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." II Kings 5:13-14

But while Naaman became willing this man did not:

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Matt 19:16

"The young man saith unto him, All these things [the commandments] have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt 19:20-23

The young man was willing, but only based on his own conditions. We must be unconditionally willing IMHO!

 

[jiggyfly]

Of course Jesus lay down His life as He declared, but does that leave us without guilt? Do we not have the ability to extinguish the Light within us? If we do not then why are we given this warning?

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

I answered the question, do you want me to change my answer?

 

[jiggyfly]

While people may be are willing to be saved, or even want to be saved, they still want put conditions on limitations on it: "I want to be saved, but..."

"But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.

Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage." II Kings 5:11-12

He placed conditions on being saved from his leprosy. Fortunately, he was convinced by his servants to go ahead and obey the prophet:

"And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." II Kings 5:13-14

But while Naaman became willing this man did not:

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" Matt 19:16

"The young man saith unto him, All these things [the commandments] have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt 19:20-23

The young man was willing, but only based on his own conditions. We must be unconditionally willing IMHO!

Again you used scripture out of the the original intent. Do you have any new covenant scripture to support your statement?

Was Paul seeking God?

 

[amadeus2]

I answered the question, do you want me to change my answer?

I do not want you to change anything to please me. Who am I? Just another man. If anybody needs to change it certainly should always be because God gave the increase.

 

[amadeus2]

Again you used scripture out of the the original intent. Do you have any new covenant scripture to support your statement?

Was Paul seeking God?

Has God changed? Is He looking for something different in people's hearts today than He was before Jesus came and paid the price? Is God a respecter persons?

 

[jiggyfly]

I apologize for getting off topic a little.

Who Killed Him?

While many different people may of been instruments of Jesus' death, the simple truth is, Jesus laid down His life in obedience to His Father. Should we feel guilty that Christ laid down His life or should we feel happy that He did?

 

[amadeus2]

I apologize for getting off topic a little.

No apology required, my friend!

While many different people may of been instruments of Jesus' death, the simple truth is, Jesus laid down His life in obedience to His Father. Should we feel guilty that Christ laid down His life or should we feel happy that He did?

I agree with your statement while to your question I would answer both. We should feel guilty because our condition and our decisions both before and after God drew us to Him made it the sacrifice necessary in order that God might ever be pleased by either one of us.

The thanks for what He did and the pleasure or happiness, which we feel as a result are beyond measure. Give God the glory!

 

[dorian37grey]

I know Jesus came to save those who were lost, it's the second part " if it was willing to be saved" that seems strange to me and the scripture your using is dealing with seeking and finding God not the other way around. Many seem to take scripture out of it's intended context but I think it is better to leave it within it's intended context when forming beliefs.

(NLT)

but I think it is better to leave it within it's intended context when forming beliefs;

if you follow this rule ; you can never understand a parable
parables require knowing the old testament story ; and the parable bring that story into light

" if it was willing to be saved" that seems strange to me
adam and eve left the family of god ;
if the sin that followed is taken care of ;
it still does not address leaving the family

that willingness ; is the part that makes family again

we see jesus pay the price for all the world ;
as seen with the parable of the pearl of great price ;
but we also see ;
the land(those of adam) is not taken to his father house by the traveler
nor is the sand ( those from abraham)
the willing ; are the pearls

many and few;

not all hear the gospel ----- land
many do -------------------- sand
few are willing-------------- pearls



yes ; no one comes to god unless he calls them;
but we also see the parable
when many who are called "are not willing"

i have new mules; a new wife; a new piece of land--etc ---------------- sand
we also see a man get thrown out for not having wedding closes------- land

but again ; the willing go in ----------------------------------------------- pearls


this same story ; repeats over and over again throughout the parables