QUESTION: What Is God's Purpose For the 153 Fish?

[canada]

QUESTION: What Is God’s Purpose For The 153 Fish?
John 21

The book of John has been referred to as the “book of signs”
One of those signs is the 153 fish placed in the net. John 21:11.

I have a thought on this, but was wondering if any others here may have come to a similar conclusion?

The eminent scholar J.A. Emerton, Professor of Hebrew, submitted a short article to the Journal of Theological Studies regarding the 153 fish.

He points out that it has proved a puzzle to commentators, but it is widely believed that there is some symbolic significance in the number but no interpretation has won universal acceptance.

Emerton states that this does not exclude the possibility that this particular number is to be interpreted by the principle of gematria, similar to the numbering of the beast in Rev 13:18.

Gematria is a system wherein an alphabet letter has a numeric value.
Roman numerals are a form of gematria … I V X L C D = 666

 

[David777]

I strongly doubt that 153 is significant.

Simple literal reading after all.

Lots and lots of fish.

 

[canada]

David,

I am just a Joe Blow believer myself, and I recall you noting yourself as a “simple Christian” also.

Here we have esteemed scholars and commentary theologians stating that … “it is widely believed that there is some symbolic significance in the number”.

Yet you strongly doubt that 153 is significant.

Would you mind further elaborating as to why you would be so strongly opposed to what scholars and theologians have to say about this, as there are other catches of fish recorded in the NT yet this is the only time their number has been noted.

Please carefully read John chapter 21 and see if there might be something significant or unusual that would attract your attention.

One thing that attracted my attention, was that the main character in this chapter is not John, nor Jesus, but rather Peter.

 

[jason h]

I am the type that gets hung up on numbers like these and that number in particular really had me thinking for some time. It could very well mean something but how would you even know you were right in what you thought it meant. Also concider it could mean nothing other than that there were 153 fishes with no hidden meaning. Almost a sort of rabbit trail. Im learning now to look for christ or the general principal since I get too hung up in the details.

If it helps at all I ask myself if what im searching the scripture for is going to be edifying for someone. As much as I like numbers and have pondered that same exact scripture, I acknowledge that im not geting my feet shod with the preparation of the gospel hunting down a number im not even sure i know means anything.

 

[jason h]

Please carefully read John chapter 21 and see if there might be something significant or unusual that would attract your attention.

One thing that attracted my attention, was that the main character in this chapter is not John, nor Jesus, but rather Peter.

Chapter 21 is full of neat things. I've found as time goes by, different parts of that chapter pop out more so than others.

 

[canada]

Very good advice Jason.

Yes, I agree that things like knowing the identity of the two witnesses of Revelation or the reason for 153 or 666 are secondary to having our feet shod with the preparation of the gospel, and yet, God has included these things in His Word.

My question was directed more toward those that may have pondered this number (in this quite unusual chapter) and have arrived at a “possible” reason as to why God singled out this number.

As noted in my opening post, I do have a few thoughts about this and was wondering if anyone else may have come to a similar conclusion.

I will wait a day or so, and if no biblical reasons are presented from those that may have studied this question in the past, I will offer my own thoughts. They may be wrong, but if so, they will be logically wrong!

 

[Boanerges]

153- it may or may not have significant meaning, skip the commentators, pray and ask God to reveal it to you and perhaps you will find out my friend.

 

[canada]

PETER … 666 … AND GOD’S SIGN IN THE NET



Sorry for this posts length but its continuity is helpful in leading to its incriminating conclusion.

As noted earlier, the Book of John has been called the “book of signs”.
The sign of the 153 fish in the net is one of those signs.

Similarly, the “sign of the fish” was a secret sign scribed in the sand between two Christians, when it was dangerous to be known as one.

So that you will know where I am coming from … and where I am going with this, I will start near the end of this chapter with verses 18 &19 and then go back to the beginning of John 21.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee (Peter) When thou was young, thou girdedst thyself, and walked whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.


Theologians continue to debate this. Was John just speaking about Peter’s literal death in his old age, or is this a prophetic statement from John speaking about the death of the Church of Peter in its old age?

There are theologians within the Church of Rome that believe this refers to the Church of Rome in its “old age”, and that their church becomes apostate in the last days. They believe these verses are one indication of that. Also, some Roman Catholic (and Protestant) theologians agree that “Babylon” in scripture is a reference to Rome.

I think most here will agree that “Peter” (not the real Peter) represents the Church of Rome … a common reference is to the “Church of Peter”, the “Chair of Peter” and the papal “Ring of Peter”.

When Pope Paul VI addressed the United Nations, he said:
“Do you know who I am? My name is Peter”

Now, let us start at the beginning of this chapter.

So what is unusual about John 21?

1. Neither John nor Jesus is the main character … it is Peter.
2. Peter was “naked”.
3. The “Roman” name is used (Sea of Tiberius) instead of Galilee.

“Roman” numbers I V X L C D just “happen” to sum at 666.

1. I believe they were instructed to wait in Jerusalem, Peter said “I go a fishing” … and the rest followed … as do those that follow the teachings and traditions of the … Church Of Peter.

As an aside, Vincents Word Studies states that Peter was only
“named” and not “appointed” as one of the 12 apostles.

5. Having fished all night and no “meat” Jesus instructed them to
cast the net on the right side of the ship and ye shall find.

6. It was John (the disciple that Jesus loved) that recognized that i
was Jesus on the shore and not Peter nor the others.

7. Jesus saith unto them to bring the fish that they had caught.Jesus did not specify, but it was Simon Peter that went up and drew in the 153 fish. I think most would agree that Peter is associated with the “counting”.

What is so unusual about Peter doing the counting?

Abram and Saul’s names were changed to Abraham and Paul, but “peter” was added to Simon. The word “peter” is small stone, indicating to count or calculate. During biblical times, small stones were used for that purpose.

As you can deduce, I am leading up to:
“Here is wisdom. Let he who hath understanding count the number … … Rev 13:18.

8. Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved Him. The last time in the
Greek was almost as though saying … do you even love me?

Individually not one of these things is too incriminating, but together?

If the real Peter and the real Mary knew how the Church of Peter has portrayed them … a larger than life size bronze statue of “Peter” in the Vatican wherein its followers bow down and kiss its foot, and Mary is now elevated to be the “Mediatrix” between God and man, I feel sure it would blow their mind.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou was young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Popes were literally “carried” during their pompous processions.

This spake he, signifying by what death Peter should glorify God …

Vatican dogma declares its pope to be the Image and Successor of
Peter. When Vatican City and “The Church Of Peter” is destroyed
by God … God will be glorified. See Rev 17 & 18.

Now that we have established a “possible” connection between “Peter”
“counting” and the gematria of Roman numbers summing at 666, how is this then associated with the number 153?

Please recall Professor Emerton’s statement regarding 153.
He states that this does not exclude the possibility that this number is to be interpreted by the principle of gematria, similar to the numbering of the beast in Rev 13:18.

Note carefully that God does not state the language to be used to solve the mystery of the 666 beast. I believe that is because that language was not in existence in the day of John of Patmos.

The biblical languages are Hebrew Aramaic and Greek.
The gematria of these languages is from 1-400 and 1-800.

The very high numeric values of these languages make for a very unreliable identification for the 666 beast.

A mere three letters for the TV character “Mr T” sums at over 600!

How could short names such as Tom or Harry possibly be a significant identification? I think most would agree, that would not be a reliable system to use the gematria of Hebrew Aramaic or Greek.

If we are in the last days (and I believe we are) and if we are serious about trying to solve this mystery (which would require some knowledge of gematria) how many Christians today understand Hebrew Aramaic or Greek? Very few I would think, however, English is the world recognized language of today … these last days.

Again, what is God’s purpose for the number 153 and why is it associated with “Peter”?

I believe it is to identify “Satan” as personified by “Peter” representing the apostate yet “religious” Church of Rome and its papal system.

Jesus … Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End … A and Z

The following numeric examples use simple English gematria wherein:
A=1 B=2 … Z=26 … the 26 letters of our alphabet.

HEBREW ARAMAIC GREEK = 153 Peter was “added” to Simon

SIMON AND PETER = 153

APPLY WISDOM = 153
A NUMBERING SIGN = 153

COUNT THE BEAST = 153
THE GREAT ***** = 153

THE FALLING AWAY = 153
THE IMAGE OF PETER = 153

Gematria is not some form of satanic numerology. It is simply a letter used as a number.

LETTER NUMBER = 153

The word gematria comes from the Greek “geometria” which has the meaning … “earth measures”.

EARTH MEASURES = 153

Although the information presented here has been centered around the sign in the net (153) and Peter representing the RCC and its papacy, there may (?) be a connection to another unusual “sign” as noted in Daniel 5:26.

The “writing on the wall” was “mene mene tekel upharsin”. (mene means number)

However, Daniels interpretation was mene tekel peres.

MENE TEKEL PERES = 153

Might all this just be a “coincidence” … or could it be a creation?

To God Be The Glory

ccc

 

[David777]

Not sure about this thread, seems to be something fishy about it.

 

[dorian37grey]

QUESTION: What Is God’s Purpose For The 153 Fish?
John 21

The book of John has been referred to as the “book of signs”
One of those signs is the 153 fish placed in the net. John 21:11.

I have a thought on this, but was wondering if any others here may have come to a similar conclusion?

The eminent scholar J.A. Emerton, Professor of Hebrew, submitted a short article to the Journal of Theological Studies regarding the 153 fish.

He points out that it has proved a puzzle to commentators, but it is widely believed that there is some symbolic significance in the number but no interpretation has won universal acceptance.

Emerton states that this does not exclude the possibility that this particular number is to be interpreted by the principle of gematria, similar to the numbering of the beast in Rev 13:18.

Gematria is a system wherein an alphabet letter has a numeric value.
Roman numerals are a form of gematria … I V X L C D = 666

gematria is based upon n + n~square over / 2
or 3 would be ,,,,,,,,,,3 + (3x3) /2,,,,,,,,,,,,, = 3 +9 /2 =12/2,,,,,,,,,,,,,,=six
oe 1 +2=3=six

with 153 as the answer
17 would be the starting number

the thought

god told jeremiah buy the land ( 17 )
jesus tells peter ( 153)

moral to the story ???
god / jesus says ; then do it


just some thoughts

 

[Opal]

I like this post, something fishy about it yea!!! :wink:

 

[canada]

Hey Dorian 37 ... (37 is very significant))

I believe you are an alien from outer space speaking in an unknown tongue (to most) but welcome to the puzzle.

You have said: "With 153 as the answer, 17 would be the starting number."

Professor J.A. Emerton also noted that others have ;pointed out that the number 153 is the sum of the numbers 1 to 17. This interpretation, which is at least as old as Augustine, demands that some significance be found for 17 as well as for 153.

I believe I can supply a few points of connection for 17 and 153 and to the numbering of the beast.

The 17th chapter of Revelation deals eXclusivley with the great ***** and Mystery Babylon.

THE GREAT ***** = 153

The names "Simon" and "Peter" occur 17 times in John's controversial chapter 21.

Augustine did not note this, but if you count our numbers from 1 to 17 they sum at 153 which, if you "cast your eyes" from the same side that Jesus instructed the net be cast ... you will perceive ... 351. 351 just "happens" to be the sum of our letters 1 to 26 ... A to Z.

The "right side" is the same side that Hebrew is written from and this may (?) have reference to the book that is written within and in "reverse". Rev 5:1.

The victors over the beast's number sing the Song of Moses. Rev 15:3

PSALM OF MOSES = 153

One of Moses songs is Psalm 90 ... it just "happens" to consist of 17 verses.

Psalm 90 is the first of 17 psalms ... (90 to 106) referred to as the NUMBERS book of psalms.

NUMBER PSALMS = 153

Well Dorian ... I feel sure that most here will not have a clue what we are talking about.

Moses song (Psalm 90 states that a thougsna year in God's sight is as yesterday so teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts to ... wisdom.

APPLY WISDOM = 153

 

[amadeus2]

While I am not a strong numbers person, Dorian37 may remember this connection I mentioned to him at another time with regard to "a great multitude of fishes", and "an hundred and fifty and three" great fishes.

The first instance is in Luke, prior to the death of Jesus:

"Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.

And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.

And when they had this done, they enclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:

And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men." Luke 5:4-10

The second instance is in John after Jesus had died and resurrected:

"Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.

Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken." John 21:10-11

The net with a great multitude of fishes broke the first time was prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus. The net with 153 great fishes did not break the second time after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Going back to the first instance in Luke consider these words in verse 10: "Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men". Given those words of Jesus, what if His reference to "fishes" in the second instance was to men?

Is verse 13 speaking of the fish as being part of the dinner or as dinner guests along with the disciples? (I am no student of Greek, but perhaps someone on the forum, who is, can help us on that point.)

Notice that later in that same chapter (John 21) Jesus tells Peter three times to feed his lambs (once) and sheep (twice).

That brings us back to the difference between the first instance's multitude of fishes and the second instance's 153 fishes.

In the first instance, the price had not yet been paid by Jesus. In the second instance, the price had been paid. Carnal men did not even possess a net strong enough to contain the multitude of fishes Jesus brought to them. It was not yet possible for them. But... after Jesus had paid the price them the men's net caught 153 fish (or was it men?).

I would really be interested in hearing any clarification of this...

 

[dorian37grey]

Hey Dorian 37 ... (37 is very significant))

I believe you are an alien from outer space speaking in an unknown tongue (to most) but welcome to the puzzle.

You have said: "With 153 as the answer, 17 would be the starting number."

Professor J.A. Emerton also noted that others have ;pointed out that the number 153 is the sum of the numbers 1 to 17. This interpretation, which is at least as old as Augustine, demands that some significance be found for 17 as well as for 153.

I believe I can supply a few points of connection for 17 and 153 and to the numbering of the beast.

The 17th chapter of Revelation deals eXclusivley with the great ***** and Mystery Babylon.

THE GREAT ***** = 153

The names "Simon" and "Peter" occur 17 times in John's controversial chapter 21.

Augustine did not note this, but if you count our numbers from 1 to 17 they sum at 153 which, if you "cast your eyes" from the same side that Jesus instructed the net be cast ... you will perceive ... 351. 351 just "happens" to be the sum of our letters 1 to 26 ... A to Z.

The "right side" is the same side that Hebrew is written from and this may (?) have reference to the book that is written within and in "reverse". Rev 5:1.

The victors over the beast's number sing the Song of Moses. Rev 15:3

PSALM OF MOSES = 153

One of Moses songs is Psalm 90 ... it just "happens" to consist of 17 verses.

Psalm 90 is the first of 17 psalms ... (90 to 106) referred to as the NUMBERS book of psalms.

NUMBER PSALMS = 153

Well Dorian ... I feel sure that most here will not have a clue what we are talking about.

Moses song (Psalm 90 states that a thougsna year in God's sight is as yesterday so teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts to ... wisdom.

APPLY WISDOM = 153

to amadeus2


yep; that conversation that we had has been
copied pasted ; printed distributed
passed out ; studied

and now 2 of my students have used it
one for a paper at their seminary
and the other in a sermon at their church

all this from two friends talking and sharing:shade:

to canada

you have found a numbers person in me ----lol
but i dont have the required posts yet for pm's

when i do get there ;
we can have a good talk

 

[canada]

Looking forward to that Dorian Grey ... there was an old movie by that name where the portrait became "older and older".
Do you remember that movie?

Hello Amadeus2,

I dont think I can be of help with your question. I am primarily a student of prophecy and the purpose of my post is to relate the sign (153) to Romanism and it's "Papal Peter" and 666.

Regarding the catch of fish in Luke, and Jesus' comment "Fear not, from henceforth thou shalt catch men". The standard interpretation has always been that this refers to witnessing and to the making of disciples. I just do not see the logic of that application in the case of the 153 fish applying to "men".

By the way, the catch in Luke was HUGE because both boats were beginning to sink ... whereas in the case of the 153, it sounds like Peter was able to handle the 153 by himself.

Of all the catches of fish in the OT and NT, I believe this is the only time that the actual number has been noted. That should be significant in itself. Note also that in the first catch they lowered the net, but with the 153 they were told to cast the net "on the right side". I believe there may very well be a logical answer for that, but we would be getting too far off thread to get into than now.

Thanks for your interest.

BTW, I gave a multitude of numeric examples relative to Revelation and the beast, and a comment about "Roman" numerals summing at 666.
Do you think that these are mere "coincidence" or do you think it is a planned creation?

 

[dorian37grey]

#1;

Looking forward to that Dorian Grey ... there was an old movie by that name where the portrait became "older and older".
Do you remember that movie?

#2;
BTW, I gave a multitude of numeric examples relative to Revelation and the beast, and a comment about "Roman" numerals summing at 666.
Do you think that these are mere "coincidence" or do you think it is a planned creation?

#1; yes and also the movie league of extrodinary men
#2; if we were to this this properly ; we would need a different "op"
rather tham make this our first in deepth conversation
could we "please" hold off until i reach the pm limit of post so that we may talk first in pm

i just feel we need to start off getting to know each others thoughts before undertaking the issue of
revelation and the beast
is that ok with you ?


ps this is post 4 ; i think five gets us started (pm's)

 

[amadeus2]

I dont think I can be of help with your question. I am primarily a student of prophecy and the purpose of my post is to relate the sign (153) to Romanism and it's "Papal Peter" and 666.

Hi canada,

Thanks in any case. I know Dorian from elsewhere, but he's the student of numbers. I'm only scratching the surface here. I have only just begun to sort and am long from understanding your posts on the numbers. These things are presently on the edge of my range, but God may change that...

Regarding the catch of fish in Luke, and Jesus' comment "Fear not, from henceforth thou shalt catch men". The standard interpretation has always been that this refers to witnessing and to the making of disciples. I just do not see the logic of that application in the case of the 153 fish applying to "men".

Well it goes deeper than just that scripture. I haven't looked into fishes in particular much throughout scripture, but on beasts and the beast nature of men there is quite of bit. I am making no declarations. I am simply 'fishing' for additional pieces of connected information.

By the way, the catch in Luke was HUGE because both boats were beginning to sink ... whereas in the case of the 153, it sounds like Peter was able to handle the 153 by himself.

Yes, and this second part was after Jesus had resurrected. The difference between the Luke event and the John event is significant. The vessel (net) had no holding power the first time but the second time it was able to hold, but a precise number: 153.

The carnal vessel of a man might be able to fill the church house to overflowing by an eloquent voice, but the new spiritual vessel will have words like Jesus: "Never man spake like this man." (John 7:46)

The first event promises better things and Jesus foretold what the better would be. The second event possibly describes more closely those better things... if we are able to understand. Why 153? Your above references for that number do not seem to fit in with it... or?

Of all the catches of fish in the OT and NT, I believe this is the only time that the actual number has been noted. That should be significant in itself. Note also that in the first catch they lowered the net, but with the 153 they were told to cast the net "on the right side". I believe there may very well be a logical answer for that, but we would be getting too far off thread to get into than now.

The "right" side of God is where the sheep are, while the goats are on the "left" side of God (See matt 25:32-33). At the end of our course we certainly would rather be sheep. The right hand of God is, I believe, the place for those in His perfect will, while the left hand speaks more of those he makes use of in spite of their hardened hearts.

BTW, I gave a multitude of numeric examples relative to Revelation and the beast, and a comment about "Roman" numerals summing at 666.
Do you think that these are mere "coincidence" or do you think it is a planned creation?

Well 666 is man's number. Anyone who follows man's ways to the end of his course has no hope. All of us at our beginning (natural birth) are following man's ways. When and if we have met Jesus, we have Hope for better things. We should have begun the process of eliminating man's ways and moving on in God's Way.