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David777

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
1,775
There are not many letters in the New Testament that have produced
as much theology as Paul's letter to the Romans.

It is a panorama of doctrine and some chapters are very difficult to follow.
Here are two of the principle chapters of Romans, have a read and state in
15 lines or less what you believe Paul is saying.

Romans 7

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law
through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another
to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused
by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we w
ere held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and
not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary,
I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have
known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner
of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came,
sin revived and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not!
But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through
what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do,
that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells;
for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do
not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8


1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from
the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us
who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to
the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God
dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but
the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through His Spirit who dwells in you.
 
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Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused
by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

This verse stands out as the problem with all problem focused doctrines.
The focus on not sinning actually AROUSES sinful passions.Trying not to sin will cause the very sin you seek to eliminate.

So the focus on life through Christ should equally cause the passion for life in Christ to be aroused.

I don't really see doctrine,only focus.
Some will see Christ as a license to sin and others will see it as a license to live.If I am dead to sin then I'm not going to see sin everywhere I go,I will only see those who have the potential to life.
 
Going on a bit further we can read:

Romans 8

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Surrender all to God abide in the Vine, be that branch that is connected to the Vine, the Vine which is the Lord Jesus, get born again by the Holy Spirit follow Him daily, die to your own self and get filled with joy and power to walk in that new Life that is by the Spirit alone and you will be a child of God, you will have so much joy and peace.

Focussing on sin won't bring Life it brings DEATH let our focus be on The Lord Jesus Christ and surrender all to Him daily!
 
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Going on a bit further we can read:

Romans 8

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Surrender all to God abide in the Vine, be that branch that is connected to the Vine, the Vine which is the Lord Jesus, get born again by the Holy Spirit follow Him daily, die to your own self and get filled with joy and power to walk in that new Life that is by the Spirit alone and you will be a child of God, you will have so much joy and peace.

Focussing on sin won't bring Life it brings DEATH let our focus be on The Lord Jesus Christ and surrender all to Him daily!

Amen x 10 my friend. If we drive a car and look out the side window we will soon find our car drifting that way. Our walk is much the same, if we keep our eyes, our hearts and lives focused on Christ we will see His will done in our lives.
A hard look in the mirror is great for anyone, honesty can be painful but necessary, however if we focus on the problem we will spiral down. If we focus on the Answer (Jesus) we will rise on eagles wings- Hallelujah!
 
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused
by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

This verse stands out as the problem with all problem focused doctrines.
The focus on not sinning actually AROUSES sinful passions.Trying not to sin will cause the very sin you seek to eliminate.

So the focus on life through Christ should equally cause the passion for life in Christ to be aroused.

I don't really see doctrine,only focus.
Some will see Christ as a license to sin and others will see it as a license to live.If I am dead to sin then I'm not going to see sin everywhere I go,I will only see those who have the potential to life.


[h=2]doc·trine[/h]   [dok-trin] Show IPA
noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.

2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.

3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church

I understand doctrine to be mans teachings. Focusing of JESUS and the LIFE HE embodies would defintitely lead to growth in righteousness. No need for doctrines. HE is LIFE TRUTH HEALING SALVATION DELIVERANCE PROSPERITY and everything else that is part of LIFE. HE is your focus and you will become like HIM
 
Sweet Victory in Christ Jesus! Though the battle rages on. Yet Victorious are we who believe in Christ Jesus!

YBIC
C4E
P.S. I'll not banter Law with you
 
Amen x 10 my friend. If we drive a car and look out the side window we will soon find our car drifting that way. Our walk is much the same, if we keep our eyes, our hearts and lives focused on Christ we will see His will done in our lives.
A hard look in the mirror is great for anyone, honesty can be painful but necessary, however if we focus on the problem we will spiral down. If we focus on the Answer (Jesus) we will rise on eagles wings- Hallelujah!

Tis so true Boenerges, a good example is Lot. When Lot separated from Abraham the scriptures say that Lot's tent faced Sodom and eventually Lot ended up living in Sodom.
 
Amen x 10 my friend. If we drive a car and look out the side window we will soon find our car drifting that way. Our walk is much the same, if we keep our eyes, our hearts and lives focused on Christ we will see His will done in our lives.
A hard look in the mirror is great for anyone, honesty can be painful but necessary, however if we focus on the problem we will spiral down. If we focus on the Answer (Jesus) we will rise on eagles wings- Hallelujah!

Reminds me of an email my friend sent me a week ago:
Car's WINDSHIELD is so large and the Rear view Mirror is so
small? Because our PAST is not as important as our FUTURE. So, Look Ahead
and Move on.
 
Very solid posts from all on this thread.

I wish other threads could attract such
worthy replies.
 
The internal conflict Paul discloses in Romans 7:14-25 is not between two entities but evidences the co-existence of two natures; the "old man" and the "new man". To me, verse 25 summarizes the understanding of the entire chapter and I would like to share a commentary below that I've found to be most helpful.

“So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin”. Observe, he says, "I myself," and not another; whence it is clear, he does not represent another man in this discourse of his; for this is a phrase used by him, when he cannot possibly be understood of any other but himself; see Romans 9:3.

He divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive.

It should be taken notice of, that he does not say "I have served," as referring to his past state of unregeneracy, but "I serve," as respecting his present state as a believer in Christ, made up of flesh and spirit, which as they are two different principles, regard two different laws. Add to all this, that this last account the apostle gives of himself and which agrees with all he had said before and confirms the whole was delivered by him, after he had with so much faith and fervency given thanks to God in a view of his future complete deliverance from sin; which is a clinching argument and proof that he speaks of himself, in this whole discourse concerning indwelling sin, as a regenerate person. – John Gill
 
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Romans 7


4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law
through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another
to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.



The very first paragraph states that the Jews are dead to the law
by membership in the body of Christ.


Does everyone agree?

 
Hello El Hombre viejo.

I would disagree with the following;


"I understand doctrine to be mans teachings."

The Christian faith has at its core a definite system of beliefs.

These are regarded as doctrines, statements of truth declared
by God to humanity. They are not the teachings of men, these
doctrines have no origin in the minds of men.


Central doctrines include theTrinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection,
the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith.
These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of
them is to corrupt the Christian faith.


Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned are of central importance; Ephesians 2:8-10.

Because these central doctrines define the heart of Christianity, one cannot be
saved and deny these.

Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which
Christians may legitimately dispute.





 
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Romans 7


4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law
through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another
to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.



The very first paragraph states that the Jews are dead to the law
by membership in the body of Christ.


Does everyone agree?



Huh? How did you get that?
 
Huh? How did you get that?

That was a rather straight forward interpretation.

The Roman church had been converted to Mosaic Law by
the Jews. Paul's letter was the correction of this error, Paul
explains at great length the purpose of the law.

Since Israel was the only nation to receive the law,
then the only people who could be dead to the law were
Jews. My brethren must be a reference to the Jews.
 
There are not many letters in the New Testament that have produced
as much theology as Paul's letter to the Romans.

It is a panorama of doctrine and some chapters are very difficult to follow.
Here are two of the principle chapters of Romans, have a read and state in
15 lines or less what you believe Paul is saying.

Romans 7

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law
through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another
to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused
by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we w
ere held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and
not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary,
I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have
known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner
of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came,
sin revived and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not!
But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through
what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do,
that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells;
for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do
not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8


1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from
the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us
who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things
of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to
the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God
dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but
the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Paul is saying that in and of ourselves it is impossible to keep the law, but through the empowerment of the indwelling Spirit of God we can (moral law, not ceremonial). Therefore to keep ourselves from sin we must walk in the Spirit rather than our felsh, so that we will remain obedient to God, not fulfilling the lust of our flesh.
 
Actually, if you read these verses in context, that is read the last half of the previous chapter and waaaaay into the following chapter, Paul was indeed explaining the purpose of the law, but also the dynamics of it. THat is to say; how it worked/works. He explains quite clearly that while under the law we are slaves to the law and the laws of sin. Then, when we are born again how we are slaves to GRACE and the law of LOVE. Really. Read it all. A 'translation' that really helps here is the 'Complete Jewish Bible'
 
Yes, the ceremonial precepts have been removed but the moral principles they directed men to are in and through Christ in the "New Covenant" with His Father. The Mosaic Law, which includes the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial ordinances, has been so far removed that even the modern-day Jew who attempts to obey it is disillusioned; " He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Heb 10:9).
 
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Paul is saying that in and of ourselves it is impossible to keep the law, but through the empowerment of the indwelling Spirit of God we can (moral law, not ceremonial). Therefore to keep ourselves from sin we must walk in the Spirit rather than our felsh, so that we will remain obedient to God, not fulfilling the lust of our flesh.

Hello watchman F.

Hope you do not mind if I ask you some questions.

Firstly, where are the scriptures that support the hypothesis that
"we" the Gentiles were placed under the law?

Secondly, where does the scripture describe the commandments
as moral?
 
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Actually, if you read these verses in context, that is read the last half of the previous chapter and waaaaay into the following chapter, Paul was indeed explaining the purpose of the law, but also the dynamics of it. THat is to say; how it worked/works. He explains quite clearly that while under the law we are slaves to the law and the laws of sin. Then, when we are born again how we are slaves to GRACE and the law of LOVE. Really. Read it all. A 'translation' that really helps here is the 'Complete Jewish Bible'

Hello El Hombre viejo.

Followed your advice regarding the previous chapter.


Romans 6

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!


Now who was under the law, Gentile or Jew?
 
Paul wrote:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse....no-one is justified by the law...the law is not of faith...Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law" Galatians 3:10-13)
Paul also wrote:
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the law....therefore the law is holy and just and good." (Romans 3:31; 7:12)

It is clear that there are two distinct and very different laws spoken of by Paul. One is sacrosanct. Holy, just, and good. The righteousness of this law is fulfilled in those who walk in the Spirit, who love, who have peace, joy, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance...against such there is no condemnation from the law.

The other law as given because of transgression against the first law. The second law, the law of Moses, was given to Israel as a signpost to Christ. It was the schoolmaster given until Christ fulfilled all the requirements of it.

Two different laws, with two different purposes. One, the law of God, points out sin. It is this law that John spoke of when he said "sin is the transgression of the law", or as some translate it, "sin is lawlessness". The law of Moses was given as a temporary solution to the sin problem. The solution however is not to do away with the law that points out sin, the solution is to deal with the minds and hearts of the sinner.

So when quoting scripture as regarding the 'law', one must be cognizent of the fact that there are two laws, and that to confuse the two can lead to some startling and sometimes inconsistent and contradictory presumptions.

Lucifer attempted to be "like the most High" without regard to the laws of God. His role as covering cherub was to defend and guard that very law against which he ultimately rebelled. It is impossible to walk in righteousness without the law of God.
Eve attempted to "be like God" whislt at the same time in disobedience to God's law.
And we have the ironic and perplexing claims today by so many that they also can receive the "image of Christ" without the law. Seems to be a recurring pattern here. Do away with the laws of Moses by all means. They were a type, a shadow of Christ. But the laws of God? It was not the law of God that was nailed to the cross. It was not the law of God that was done away with at Calvary. It was not the law of God that is 'against us', and 'a curse'. We all need to be much more discerning when we talk about law else you may find yourself siding with Lucifer and repeating Eve's mistake. Attempting to be "like the most High" while in open rebellion against the laws of the most High.
 
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