Love Over Law

[B-A-C]

The Gospel of Matthew was written to a Jewish audience.

We are spiritual in Christ, we have the righteousness of Christ.

Where Christ is there is no law and never will be.

Let's go with this thought for bit.
I have a series of questions.

1. Have you David ever sinned in your life?

2. If the answer is "yes", how did you know it was sin?

there are more questions.. depending on the answers to these.

 

[Barny]

To carry this thought a little further....

If we were never under the law, why would we need Jesus?
Saying we aren't under any law nullifies the need for Jesus.
.....

God's standards and Holiness are so far above ours...

This is why we need Jesus.

Hi B-A-C,

I agree, God's standards are higher than ours and that is why we need Jesus.

Your first point about those who were never under the law, is covered in Rom 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

The Jews according to the flesh had the law of righteousness and the Gentiles were not under this law. Both Jews and Gentiles were unrighteous.
"But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.<sup class="versenum"> </sup>Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:31-32

The Gentiles were unrighteous (which is sin, 1John 5:17) and therefore perished, just like Israel which, in spite of having the law of righteousness, failed to attain to the law of righteousness.
Both Jews and Gentiles needed a savior.

Gal 2:18 warns that if you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor. To go back under the law you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21.

 

[Barny]

Barny, it seems to me you do not have the right gospel, but are spreading another gospel; a gospel in which sin is ok because you simply can never sin anymore as a christian. And that God does not see your sins anymore. And that repentance is a once only in a lifetime action and then never again? Which implies that all your future sins are already forgiven? and that now there is no more sin for Christians? That a christian can never ever sin again? Never fall back in unbelief?

That is contrary to the real gospel.

Hi DutchChristian,

We differ in our definitions of sin, hence our different understandings.
Please read my posts again to see that it is well supported by scripture.
Also, I did not say Christians can never fall back into unbelief. Read my post again and see scripture references I referred to, warning Christians about falling away.

 

[Boanerges]

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Old Covenant believers (servants) had the Law to convict them of sin.
New Covenant believers(sons) have the Holy Spirit directing their conscience (Rom 9:1) to convict them of sin.
God did not violate the Law but Christ fulfilled the Law we could not.


Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi B-A-C,

I agree, God's standards are higher than ours and that is why we need Jesus.

Your first point about those who were never under the law, is covered in Rom 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

The Jews according to the flesh had the law of righteousness and the Gentiles were not under this law. Both Jews and Gentiles were unrighteous.
"But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.<sup class="versenum"> </sup>Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:31-32

The Gentiles were unrighteous (which is sin, 1John 5:17) and therefore perished, just like Israel which, in spite of having the law of righteousness, failed to attain to the law of righteousness.
Both Jews and Gentiles needed a savior.

Gal 2:18 warns that if you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor. To go back under the law you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21.

After we are saved, this is all true.. but what about before we are saved? What are we saved from?

 

[David777]

Hell Bac

Let's go with this thought for bit.
I have a series of questions.

1. Have you David ever sinned in your life?

2. If the answer is "yes", how did you know it was sin?

there are more questions.. depending on the answers to these.

I never knew the law of Moses, I did not know what the Sabbath was.
I never even knew God had a name, I did not even know of God.

I had sinned grossly BAC, my own conscious tormented me.

My main areas of sin were in fact outside of the 10 words.

After I read the Gospel the Holy Spirit started to convict more deeply
than my own conscious did.

It was sin in the sense that it was wickedness more so than lawlessness. The Greek word for lawlessness also means wickedness.
Thus, in my case it was not failure in respect of the law but evil beyond the limits of the law.

 

[B-A-C]

I never knew the law of Moses, I did not know what the Sabbath was.
I never even knew God had a name, I did not even know of God.

I had sinned grossly BAC, my own conscious tormented me.

My main areas of sin were in fact outside of the 10 words.

After I read the Gospel the Holy Spirit started to convict more deeply
than my own conscious did.

It was sin in the sense that it was wickedness more so than lawlessness. The Greek word for lawlessness also means wickedness.
Thus, in my case it was not failure in respect of the law but evil beyond the limits of the law.

In others words, we are back to...
You determine what sin is.. God doesn't.
The Bible doesn't tell us what sin is. We have to guess.

Thanks for answering.

 

[David777]

Hey BAC.

In others words, we are back to...
You determine what sin is.. God doesn't.
The Bible doesn't tell us what sin is. We have to guess.

Thanks for answering.

I love to answer questions BAC.

I am enthralled by these different theologies.

The Holy Spirit does the work of conviction of sin BAC.

Our own conscience also convicts us of sin.

Sin is wickedness, I never had the law BAC.

Sin is disobedience to God, disobedience
to the inner programming we all have.

The good that I wish I could do is
not what I do, rather what I do not
want to do. Who will set me free from
this body of death?

My thought life was my undoing BAC,
thoughts are beyond our full control.
Our thoughts condemn us as Paul
states in Romans.

 

[B-A-C]

Your first point about those who were never under the law, is covered in Rom 2:12, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

Here is the "God's Word" Translation.
Rom 2:10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for every person who does what is good, for Jews first and Greeks as well.
Rom 2:11 God does not play favorites.
Rom 2:12 Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.
Rom 2:14 For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God.
Rom 2:15 They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another.

You should have underlined the "will also perish without the law" part.
Even without the Jewish law, they will be judged by them. But they DID have the law, even though Moses didn't bring it to them from a mountain top.

Here is the Amplified version.
Rom 2:11 For God shows no partiality [undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another]. [Deut. 10:17; II Chron. 19:7.]
Rom 2:12 All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.
Rom 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them]

The Gentiles had the law, not on stone tablets, but on their hearts.

Here is the NLT version.
Rom 2:10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know His law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

The Gentiles didn't have laws written on tablets or stone, but they knew right from wrong. They had God's laws on their hearts.
I might as well throw in King James for good measure...

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

"But Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.<sup class="versenum"> </sup>Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:31-32

The Gentiles were unrighteous (which is sin, 1John 5:17) and therefore perished, just like Israel which, in spite of having the law of righteousness, failed to attain to the law of righteousness.
Both Jews and Gentiles needed a savior.

Gal 2:18 warns that if you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor. To go back under the law you frustrate the grace of God, Gal 2:21.

No argument with any of this, I don't want to go BACK to the law. My point was, as Gentiles there was a 'law' in the first place. (Otherwise I wouldn't be able to go BACK to it) once we are saved, it doesn't apply in the same way anymore.

 

[B-A-C]

Our thoughts condemn us as Paul
states in Romans.

You are correct, Paul does state that our thoughts and conscious' condemn us. Why did he say that?

Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.
Rom 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know His law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Because they knew God's laws in their hearts.
There are still millions of people in the world today who have never never heard of Jesus, or the Bible, or even the Old Testament Torah.
Yet despite this, they know certain things are wrong. Virtually all cultures have the same laws about murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc...
It might be argued that not EVERY culture has EVERY law; perhaps not, but most cultures have most of the laws pretty close to the 10 commandments.

Even as Christians, we are still under "a" law.

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Fulfilling the requirements of the law, is entirely different from doing away with the law entirely.

Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

 

[David777]

In reply BAC.

Philippians 3

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge
of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of
His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.


A person with some familiarity with all the law, a Hebrew of Hebrews.

Paul should have recognized the truth, the Gospel BAC.

If the law is Holy and Good, and sin is the opposite of this.

Paul had been trained to be good and holy by years of devotion
to the law. Paul's sin should have been negligible, what do we find,
Paul was destroying the early church. In direct opposition to Jesus Christ,
Paul was executing the will of Satan. Paul the complete antithesis of truth itself.

How do you explain this paradox considering the role of law?

How come Paul was killing Christians before he became a Christian
himself? This represents a paradox when considered in conjunction with the purpose of the law.

 

[Diamondlight]

Have any of you noticed that this thread has fallen into the same groove as always?

It's not an either/or....

Love encompasses all the law and then some.

It's higher than the law, it's asks more than the law, it costs more.

 

[David777]

Hello all.

I would like any that hold to the ten word position to please explain the following;

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from
the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:
He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do
not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Barny]

In others words, we are back to...
You determine what sin is.. God doesn't.
The Bible doesn't tell us what sin is. We have to guess.

Thanks for answering.

Hi B-A-C,

Sin is rebellion against God and God gives us definitions of sin that show how this rebellion manifests itself.

Ultimately, unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) encompasses the various definitions we see in the Bible. Unbelief is rebellion against God and results in being cut off and not entering in to God's rest, Heb 3:19.

Some other definitions are:

Unrighteousness, 1John5:17 ( But, Christians are righteous in Christ, hence we do not commit this sin)

Blasphemy of Holy Spirit, Mark 3:29. (We do not blaspheme, hence we do not commit this sin)

Whatever is not of faith, Rom 14:23 (But, Christians are justified by faith, Rom 5:1, hence we do not commit this sin)

Transgression of the law, 1John3:4 (Christians are not under the law, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2. And where there is no law there is no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15. Hence we do not commit this sin).

Now as Christians we have repented of our rebellion ("dead works" Heb 6:1)and turned back to God. We are no longer in rebellion/sin. Hence we have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, and "cannot sin", 1John3:6-9.

Only our past sin (rebellion/unbelief) has been forgiven (Rom 3:25). Any Christian who turns back to sin/rebellion/unbelief can not repent again (Heb 6:1-6).

A common warning we see in scripture about sin is that of putting yourself under the law. If you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18). Being under the law is rebellion/unbelief, seeking to establish your own righteousness thus not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

I understand from your previous post that you do not want to go under the law. I likewise agree.

 

[Barny]

I would like any that hold to the ten word position to please explain the following;

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from
the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:
He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do
not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

And Christians do not walk according to the flesh. Our old man was crucified with Christ (Rom 6:6). We are led by the Spirit.

Rom 7:5,6 "For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. <sup class="versenum"> </sup>But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Rom 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,"

Gal 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the
law."

Christians are not under the law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness). Our righteousness is in Christ, instead
"<sup class="versenum"> </sup>For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." Gal 5:5

 

[Boanerges]

Have any of you noticed that this thread has fallen into the same groove as always?

It's not an either/or....

Love encompasses all the law and then some.

It's higher than the law, it's asks more than the law, it costs more.

Love always fulfill the Law and yet we are told emphatically in scripture that we are no longer under the Law. We follow the commands of Christ which are always Love, Love, Love.
All this is done as Christ walked, doing the Father's will not our own, doing the Father's works not our own and then all this only in the power of His Holy Spirit. So in some ways the results are the same but the path is completely different.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi B-A-C,

Sin is rebellion against God and [HIGH-LIGHT]God gives us definitions[/HIGH-LIGHT] of sin that show how this rebellion manifests itself.

Ultimately, unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9) encompasses [HIGH-LIGHT]the various definitions we see in the Bible.[/HIGH-LIGHT] Unbelief is rebellion against God and results in being cut off and not entering in to God's rest, Heb 3:19.

Some other definitions are:

Unrighteousness, 1John5:17 ( But, Christians are righteous in Christ, hence we do not commit this sin)

Blasphemy of Holy Spirit, Mark 3:29. (We do not blaspheme, hence we do not commit this sin)

Whatever is not of faith, Rom 14:23 (But, Christians are justified by faith, Rom 5:1, hence we do not commit this sin)

Transgression of the law, 1John3:4 (Christians are not under the law, 1Tim 1:9, Gal 5:18, Rom 8:2. And where there is no law there is no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15. Hence we do not commit this sin).

Now as Christians we have repented of our rebellion ("dead works" Heb 6:1)and turned back to God. We are no longer in rebellion/sin. Hence we have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, and "cannot sin", 1John3:6-9.

Only our past sin (rebellion/unbelief) has been forgiven (Rom 3:25). Any Christian who turns back to sin/rebellion/unbelief can not repent again (Heb 6:1-6).

A common warning we see in scripture about sin is that of putting yourself under the law. If you go under the law you make yourself a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18). Being under the law is rebellion/unbelief, seeking to establish your own righteousness thus not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

I understand from your previous post that you do not want to go under the law. I likewise agree.

It seems we are in agreement here. You say the definition of sin comes from the Bible. (from the Law as it were). Thank you for posting scriptures for your definitions.
And we both agree neither one of us wants to still be under the law.

 

[Diamondlight]

Love always fulfill the Law and yet we are told emphatically in scripture that we are no longer under the Law. We follow the commands of Christ which are always Love, Love, Love.

You are still presenting an either/or

I can't be explaining myself clearly enough about this, forgive me.

 

[Boanerges]

You are still presenting an either/or

I can't be explaining myself clearly enough about this, forgive me.

There is no confusion, we just look at it differently. The bible says believers are not under the Law so by default I must agree to that. That being said Love does not do harm and thus fulfills that which I do not follow.

 

[will]

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Fulfilling the requirements of the law, is entirely different from doing away with the law entirely.

BAC,
Are you saying that we as Christians ought to live in daily fear that we trespass the law?