Demonic possession-v-Demonic influence!

[SpiritLedEd]

However, I have often thought of the account of not demonic possession but demonic influence in Act 5:1-10. Ananias was clearly a first century Christian who was also born again with the holy spirit. Yet the bible tells us, Satan was able to influence this man through his pride and greed.

"Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth, and the desires for other things come in and choke the word making it unfruitful." (Mk 4:18-19)

Paul tells the Philippian church, and us vicariously, to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good purpose."
(Php 2:12-13)

Ananias and Sapphira, it would appear, were never more than lukewarm believers. Apparenty, They failed to "work out" their salvation by not surrendering completely to the Holy Spirit (not really born again and Spirit-filled), thus leaving themselves wide open and vulnerable to the devil. "No man can serve two masters" (Mt 6:24).

SLE

 

[brakelite]

Nice to receive input from someone else.

I''ll just reprint what you said,

In the matter of whether Ananias and Sapphira were Christians,
I am inclined toward Jari's view, though loathe to make a conclusive judgement.
That they died as non-Christians there can be no doubt. If they were Christian at some stage,
if they had accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour, at what stage did they lose their salvation?
When they devised their lie together? Or when they acted upon it before witnesses?
Mmmmm. Raises a heap more questions doesn't it. It could be that the scripture, although stating
all were filled with the Holy Spirit, didn't immediately state ...except (Ananias and Sapphira)...
but left it to a few verses later to describe the nature of that exception.

There is a problem with saying too much in a post.

My replies will be to every statement you made, hence an encyclopedic reply.
That is why Jari, El Hombre viejo, and myself use simple statements,
they ensure a simple reply, preferred.

1) The text is the absolute standard, all ideas need scriptural
support from within the text.

So I will look at one of your statements Brakelite.

"at what stage did they lose their salvation?"

This is where you would need to supply the scripture in Acts
to support this idea. In my reading of Acts 5 there is no mention
that they lost their Salvation. Where does it say that they did not believe in Jesus.
They lied, they thought to men, surely this does not determine their final destiny,
a lie means damnation??

The simple reading of the text is the best, this avoids inserting ideas into the text.

The text says "all" not some or a few.

Hi David, you will notice that I did say if they were Christians, at what stage did they lose their salvation. A reason I said that I leant more toward Jari's view on this, that they likely weren't saved from the beginning, is not because they lied per se. After all, Peter lied about knowing Jesus, denying Him three times, that was extremely serious, yet wasn't struck dead. Later, Peter played the hypocrite by shunning the company of Gentile believers in front of Jews in order to save his reputation. Paul also compromised at one stage by taking a vow and shaving his head to 'prove' his Jewishness, after all his preaching and teaching that there was no Jew or Gentile, and the old ways of the Jews had been superceded by Christ. He wasn't struck down either. Both were forms of dishonesty. So I am not saying that Ananias and Sapphira were killed because they lied. Rather, I am more inclined to believe the scripture that says God looks upon the heart, and judges accordingly. Man looks on the surface (the spoken lie) but God judges as He sees what motivated the lie, and the attitude of the heart or mind that sinned. Peter and Paul were zealous for the gospel. They were the real deal, though they both made a mistake. God's grace covers such a lapse. But with Ananias and Sapphira, the issue went a great deal deeper than one lie.


I think that their hearts were not with the programme. They were pretenders, feigning faith for some reason we are not told about, and they were judged accordingly. They posed a great danger to the well being of the church if they were permitted to continue with their false profession. Their influence in the young movement may have been instrumental in damaging the faith and lowering the standards that God set for His people.

Also, read the text again in the book of Acts.

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
32 ¶ And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own;(Ananias did say such a thing) but they had all things common.
Who was it that were united in sharing all their possessions? They that believed, not all that professed to believe.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
1 ¶ But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

Now lets remove the incidentals and see....
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness......But a certain man named Ananias.....

I don't think I am doing any damage to the context with the above. To me, Ananias is being clearly set forth as the exception to the "all" mentioned previously.

 

[David777]

Hello Brakelite.

I had difficulty understanding you reply.

If you could read over it and correct/simplify.

Remember to stay within scope of the text.

If you could shorten its length.

Here is the first part,

Hi David, you will notice that I did say if they were Christians, at what stage did they lose their salvation. A reason I said that I leant more toward Jari's view on this, that they likely weren't saved from the beginning, is not because they lied per se. After all, Peter lied about knowing Jesus, denying Him three times, that was extremely serious, yet wasn't struck dead. Later, Peter played the hypocrite by shunning the company of Gentile believers in front of Jews in order to save his reputation. Paul also compromised at one stage by taking a vow and shaving his head to 'prove' his Jewishness, after all his preaching and teaching that there was no Jew or Gentile, and the old ways of the Jews had been superceded by Christ. He wasn't struck down either. Both were forms of dishonesty. So I am not saying that Ananias and Sapphira were killed because they lied. Rather, I am more inclined to believe the scripture that says God looks upon the heart, and judges accordingly. Man looks on the surface (the spoken lie) but God judges as He sees what motivated the lie, and the attitude of the heart or mind that sinned. Peter and Paul were zealous for the gospel. They were the real deal, though they both made a mistake. God's grace covers such a lapse. But with Ananias and Sapphira, the issue went a great deal deeper than one lie.

I think that their hearts were not with the programme. They were pretenders, feigning faith for some reason we are not told about, and they were judged accordingly. They posed a great danger to the well being of the church if they were permitted to continue with their false profession. Their influence in the young movement may have been instrumental in damaging the faith and lowering the standards that God set for His people.

 

[Brother Mike]

Could it be?

I think that their hearts were not with the programme. They were pretenders, feigning faith for some reason we are not told about, and they were judged accordingly. They posed a great danger to the well being of the church if they were permitted to continue with their false profession. Their influence in the young movement may have been instrumental in damaging the faith and lowering the standards that God set for His people.

Satan killed them, He had to have a pretty strong place to do so. Satan certainly would have killed all of us if he could.

What if they where saved to the utmost, having seen the goodness of God, and miracles, the power of God on a daily bases.

What if their judgement was not because they could have caused hurt???

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


We are only judged by the Light God has given us, how great a light violated, how great much is required.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Show me Jari where in Acts 4,5 that Ananias is not part of the "all".

Also, where does it say that Ananias joined later on.

All you need is the scriptural justification so we can proceed.

as i have been saying all along scripture doesnt state it either way. I just think its far more reasonable assumption that they werent believers.

 

[jari]

Satan killed them, He had to have a pretty strong place to do so. Satan certainly would have killed all of us if he could.

What if they where saved to the utmost, having seen the goodness of God, and miracles, the power of God on a daily bases.

What if their judgement was not because they could have caused hurt???

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


We are only judged by the Light God has given us, how great a light violated, how great much is required.

Jesus Is Lord.

i don't think God allows satan to kill us. it goes against Jesus word's of God protecting us and being good shephard.
to say God allows satan to kill us is like saying God doesnt care for us or all the things Jesus saying how God wishes none to perish are false.

i don't believe at all that God would treat us like that ever. its only possible for unbelivers who never become believers because they dont want to. "vessels of desctruction". like pharaoh was.

God bless...

 

[Brother Mike]

Man..

Jari, God bless you brother, but Your mind just assumes things, and you just make up things on your own, and it makes you hard to Understand. Half of what you say, is different than what we thought you said, and you say we said things, that we did not say.

(Repeat that real fast 10 times)

If English is not your first language, then I understand, but I would like to ask you to just think about what others said, thank about what your going to say, and even pray some.

i don't think God allows satan to kill us. it goes against Jesus word's of God protecting us and being good shephard.
to say God allows satan to kill us is like saying God doesnt care for us or all the things Jesus saying how God wishes none to perish are false.

Is there any place where I said God allows Satan to kill us? NO!! So, not even a topic.

Can you think of any instances where the Devil, by someone's own actions may have done them harm, not God's choice, but the person gave place to the devil?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Jari, God bless you brother, but Your mind just assumes things, and you just make up things on your own, and it makes you hard to Understand. Half of what you say, is different than what we thought you said, and you say we said things, that we did not say.

(Repeat that real fast 10 times)

If English is not your first language, then I understand, but I would like to ask you to just think about what others said, thank about what your going to say, and even pray some.

i do understand what others say very well. i hope it isnt just my english that's poor. sorry if so.


not trying to stir the pot but.......

Is there any place where I said God allows Satan to kill us? NO!! So, not even a topic.

Can you think of any instances where the Devil, by someone's own actions may have done them harm, not God's choice, but the person gave place to the devil?

that's the same thing.
your basically saying God allows satan to kill us, IF we make some bad choice.
is it not what your saying?

and i must say it doesnt say in scripture it was satan, so this must be some theory but can it be proven to be true? i think if God allows it its still under God's authority.
maybe thats another topic though.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

This is interesting, you have made an assumption, an assumption is
something you believe to be true.

You said,

as i have been saying all along scripture doesnt state it either way.
I just think its far more reasonable assumption that they werent believers.

Why, oh why, do you make an assumption.

You said yourself that Acts 5 does not state it, why does Jari then make the assumption.

This is what I would like to know, why does Jari make the assumption in the first place?

 

[Kit Carson]

God killed Ananias and Sapphira.

I sometimes study the old testament and although I see much of it as culture, tradition and laws made by men, I see in it the truth of God. I look for these things to help me separate the laws of men from the truths of God.

God has done this kind of thing several times, as he did before his presence in the temple. Where the two sons of Aaron offered strange fire to God in his temple, so in Gods presence they were instantly killed. God does not tolerate lies and deceit in his presence.

Listen to Peter, by his very words he testifies the Holy Spirit is God. This is a time where God is present and within the people, where flames of fire sit upon the heads of those given the holy spirit. God at this time is if not present in his form is present in the form of the Holy Spirit. Peter is given the revelation of what has occurred and simply states what will occur. The holy spirit at that time was God, and part of God and God was present. I see no flames of fire on any heads today, the Holy spirit is of a different form of today, it is a part of the spirit of God, within us, but not with God as it was then.

God killed them. This is what the Bible says to me. Folks tend to forget that if you fall astray in the very presence of the living God, he does not tolerate lies and deceit. If they had spoken truthfully and said, you know, we fear for our own well being and we will give you only this much, God would have let it go and in time maybe they would have learned more and been given more ......but they lied. In the presence of God.

God killed them. Just as he killed the two brothers in his temple.

This is one of the most difficult sections in the new testament to understand. It causes much confusion and discussion, it is used by men for control in the mega churches......

I can only say what is in my heart.......God cannot stand in his presence a lie, so they died at the hand of God. We are forgiven our sins by the blood of Jesus, but if we were to stand before the living God and sin, we would also be killed if not for Christ.




Kit

 

[jari]

This is interesting, you have made an assumption, an assumption is
something you believe to be true.

You said,

as i have been saying all along scripture doesnt state it either way.
I just think its far more reasonable assumption that they werent believers.

Why, oh why, do you make an assumption.

You said yourself that Acts 5 does not state it, why does Jari then make the assumption.

This is what I would like to know, why does Jari make the assumption in the first place?

because we can only assume some things
assumptions can be later reviewed if they can be proven. so thats why i gave my view.

 

[David777]

Hello again Jari.

Why would you want to assume, where it may not be warranted
to make an assumption in the first place.

The natural reading of Acts 5, is the selection of Ananias from the believers Jari.
To assume Ananias was not in fact under Grace would be a crude assumption indeed.
Much safer to not make the assumption.

If you are wrong in your assumption you pay the price.

With no assumption, no mistakes are possible.

This seems are more straight forward approach.

 

[jari]

Hello, David

The natural reading of Acts 5, is the selection of Ananias from the believers Jari.

not the way i read Bible. I hope we can agree to disagree then.

To assume Ananias was not in fact under Grace would be a crude assumption indeed.

I disagree. assuming he was among belivers is crude assumption because it goes against everything we learn from God's love and nature in the bible.

Much safer to not make the assumption.

theres no risk as i admit its assumption that i cannot prove. I so wish others would admit the same from their positions.

If you are wrong in your assumption you pay the price.

there's no price that needs to be paid when some one joins bible study with an idea. different is to claim it as fact.

God bless you David

 

[Davy]

Hi gdemoss:
I do not believe demon influence is characterized by odd thoughts popping into ones head. (Quote--These attacks come in the form of thoughts that seem to originate out of nowhere.) The account of Ananias shows he must have cultivated the desire for greed and the plaudits of men. Because he could have given all the money to the Christian cause, instead he schemed and lied, and was able to bring his wife on board to go along with it, who must also have been a born again Christian, and this is an important point, "she was not influenced by Satan," she too wanted the feelings associate with popularity, by pretending to give all the money away, while greedily keeping some of it back. This does not sound like an odd thought popping into ones head. This sounds like a carefully cultivated feeling and desire in both of them.

That being the case, we must be careful to monitor not just our odd thoughts that flush in and out of everyones mind every day, and also focus on feelings and desires that do not line up with the bible.

I think after reading all these replies, that is the key, any random thought, feeling or desire in our mind and heart that does not line up with God's word is to be rejected. That is quite a challenge!!!

 

[eddieb]

So, how can you tell if you are just yielding to some works of the flesh, or being influenced by Satan or a demon?

a gift of the spirit called discernment of spirits is one thought but not everyone has this gift.

my question in return is why does it matter? sin is sin.

 

[jari]

funny how people believing God slays everyone dead who err's somehow. I believe Joh 3:17 says Jesus came to world to SAVE the world not Condemn it. Which is why ananias died because joh 3 also says who doesn t believe is condemmed already - so God must known ananias would never believe to give this judgement.

but if dead people are being carried out from your church every sunday i might not want an invatation.

James 3
13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


Colossians 3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;


No warnings in scripture about being killed if you lie. God is merciful. We have grace.

 

[David777]

Hello jari.

This is never personal and never should be taken as personal.

This is what you stated in your previous post:

funny how people believing God slays everyone dead who err's somehow.
I believe Joh 3:17 says Jesus came to world to SAVE the world not Condemn it.
Which is why ananias died because joh 3 also says who doesn t believe is condemmed already
- so God must known ananias would never believe to give this judgement.

Do you see what I see in your reply.

Acts 5 says that Ananias lied to men, which amounted to lying to the Holy Spirit.
It does not say what you said in the highlighted blue line.

You are stretching this judgement in Acts 5, you are saying that Ananias did not believe in Jesus.
That is separate from what is recorded in Acts 5. It states Ananias was judged for lying.

Of course God knew Ananias completely, but the text does not say what you said Jari.

 

[jari]

Of course God knew Ananias completely, but the text does not say what you said Jari.

true and thats why we need to look in rest of the bible to learn of God's righteuess judgements .
to have some clue what happened there

 

[David777]

Then Jari.

By all means lets look at other scripture to see whether your proposition has support. Feel free to quote.

 

[Kit Carson]

Kit is an idiot.........yep.......sure is.

I am different and speak from the heart as man to man, with what I learn in life with the guidance from God.

So I made the statement that God killed Ananias and Sapphira. I was so very wrong. You see it is something we do as men, we so wish to protect our beloved God and to condemn all sin that we put words in his mouth sometimes. God just grins at us and teaches us different as honest mistakes made with a good heart are but guided to the truth.

So I ask all of you, where in the Bible, in any place, do you not see the goodness of God?

Do you see it say God killed them. No it simply says the fell down dead. It does not say God killed them, it says they died, fell down. How do you suppose that happened??

John 10:10 to me convicts Satan as the destroyer. Satan is the killer, not God. It is Satan that kills .

Luke 21: 26 speaks of a fear so great that mens hearts fail them out of fear. So if you believe in the gifts of the spirit, you can see that Peter had the gift of knowledge and Satan provided the great fear and they died of fear of the heart.......or a heart attack.

So you have a couple who are like some today, they want to be so very important....and impress everyone , and they wish all to honor them and to know they are important......so they sell their possession, which Peter reveals to be land......keep back a part of it so they can splurge and enjoy.......but Satan is already working on them and they are already fearful of being found out. Shhhheee.....do not tell........no one knows......now we will be important.

So the man enters the presence of the church and Peter and out of the blue Peter asks him why he has not only lied to him but do you not know you have lied to God also....Uh oh........how did Peter know this...by the spirit of knowledge......that is how. God revealed it to him . So the couple died out of fear. They let Satan get hold of them and they were already fearful and when they saw the Power that God does have, this allowed their fear planted by Satan to kill them.

This is the way I see it....in its truth. They fell down and gave up the Ghost........God did not kill them.

Kit