What happened to Jesus’ church?

[John Zain]

At the end of His ministry, Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 disciples (John 20:22).
Did this cause them to be born again, with the Holy Spirit coming inside of them?

Just before ascending into heaven, Jesus instructed His large group of disciples/apostles:
"And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem,
but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
... you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses
to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:4-8)

After Jesus ascended into Heaven, the Holy Spirit was sent to earth to permanently replace Him (John 14:16-26)

On the Day of Pentecost, the other 109(?) were born-again, and simultaneously
were baptized with the Holy Spirit (with the evidence of speaking in tongues).
This was the anointing required for them to start evangelizing (and begin the NT church):
“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled
the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues,
as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:1-4)

In the NT church, they had a 5-fold ministry (given in the order of authority):
“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ …” (Ephesians 4:11-12)

In the NT church, there were 9 major spiritual gifts:
“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
… There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries,
but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit,
to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles,
to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues,
to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things,
distributing to each one individually as He wills.” (1 Cor. 12:1-11)
(So much for God’s Spirit only being a “force”, as some church leaders have insisted.)

Let us understand that everything in the NT applies today … and for all time,
e.g. there are instructions for slaves and slave masters (and slavery exists today).

So, what has happened to all of this? This which has continued to be necessary to
evangelize the lost, run the churches successfully, train new disciples, etc.

Let us not use 1 Cor. 13:10 as an excuse, for “that which is perfect” refers to Jesus’ return.
.

 

[Brother Mike]

The gifts of the Spirit.

Far as I can tell, the supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit and nine gifts are in full effect today.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[lioncub]

At the end of His ministry, Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 disciples (John 20:22).
Did this cause them to be born again, with the Holy Spirit coming inside of them?

The disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.

On the Day of Pentecost, the other 109(?) were born-again, and simultaneously
were baptized with the Holy Spirit (with the evidence of speaking in tongues).

All received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and spoke in tongues, as the text states. The text does not say that only 109 received. The disciples were born again on Pentecost, not before !

 

[gdemoss]

I have that which is perfect as it has come. My bible gives me every answer that I need for every question that comes up. I have the anointing to teach me all things and guide me in all truth. That said, Satan has taken down the church as was prophesied. The men of the church have become lovers of their own selves. Lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. The true gospel is evil spoken of. It seems that there is a remnant that remains that hasn't bowed the knee to the enemy that is awaiting the angels to come and lead them by the hand out of Sodom before God brings down judgment upon those that dwell upon the earth, but only those who have put on Christ as the elect of God. The time is drawing near, let us draw even closer unto God the Father in full assurance of faith that he will do that which he has promised.

Gary

 

[judge not]

Jesus Christ promised that He would build His church and that His church would never be destroyed.
If the Apostles were here today-what would they think of our modern churches. Would they observe Sunday as the Lord's day of rest. Would they join in with the pagan traditions of Easter and Christmas or follow many that believe the Law was " nailed to the cross"
Or would they be shocked to find customs and beliefs, now labeled ' christian ' were completely unknown to the first century church.
Would they be amazed we don't keep God's holydays like Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles anymore-even though they were made for mankind and were required to be kept forever.
How many churches continue to preach the Gospel of Jesus about His return to set up His kingdom here on earth.
when did everything change?

 

[John Zain]

I have that which is perfect as it has come.
My Bible gives me every answer that I need for every question that comes up.

I wonder why the Lord gives faithful believers (who know the word inside and out) ...
SPECIFIC encouragements, directions, discernments, details about someone's life who needs help,
and many etc. ... a list too long to list here (the forum might crash).
I guess He must be a-wastin' His time.
(Time to wake up and get wit da program.)

 

[John Zain]

The disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.

Interesting ... Then what is this verse all about?
Did the 11 refuse to receive the Holy Spirit, which Jesus said He gave to them?

 

[faithfulservant]

John 20 and Pentecost has raised some questions for me, as well. Were the disciples completely unregenerate until John 20? When He breathed life into them, was that their "born again" experience? And then is the baptism of the Holy Spirit an entirely different experience?

This requires wisdom. LORD, I pray Your truth will be revealed on these matters. In Jesus' name I pray.

 

[gdemoss]

I wonder why the Lord gives faithful believers (who know the word inside and out) ...
SPECIFIC encouragements, directions, discernments, details about someone's life who needs help,
and many etc. ... a list too long to list here (the forum might crash).
I guess He must be a-wastin' His time.
(Time to wake up and get wit da program.)

John, to say that the Holy Spirit aids people by giving them what they need for a specific ministry to a specific person at a specific time has nothing to do with the perfect word of God coming. The bible is our basis from which we form understanding. It is what the Holy Spirit brings to mind when needed.

May the Lord bless you and keep you till the day of Christ,

Gary

 

[Brother Mike]

The SPirit and His Gifts

Time to wake up and get wit da program.

I am not very sure where this thread is going, it started out with "What happened to all this, and I can only assume it means where are the gifts at today. Certainly depending on what denomination or Church you have been too they might seem to be missing some.

Still, I am sort of waiting for the punch line so to speak.

and what program?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Wilvan]

I would probably be chased out of town with this thought, but it is only my belief and opinion based on my research, so it's up to you to believe or not. All I can say is do your own research and think.

The True Church established by the Apostles did exists throughout the ages. It is not the mega church in Rome and her daughter churches that came out of her in 'protest.' Jesus said his Church is a little flock (Luke 12:32) and is always persecuted. It is the only one that faithfully keeps all the 10 Commandments of God.

The Bible clearly prophesies that the Church at the end times will be characterized by a great apostasy. In 2Thes. 2:3 Paul said that there will be a "falling away" first before the Antichrist comes to the scene and starts the Great Trib! Well, the Church did fall into Apostasy in 1994 when it broke the Sabbath to become more "mainstream!" What was left are hundreds of splinter churches or "remnants" that still carry parts of the name.

I'm referring to the Worldwide Church of God established by Herbert W. Armstrong. You can google his name and read about it. I believe this was the true Church of God... and it is now gone. This is indeed one of the signs given in the Bible that we are living in the end times.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

At the end of His ministry, Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 disciples (John 20:22).
Did this cause them to be born again, with the Holy Spirit coming inside of them?

Like all of us, the disciples were "born again" at the moment they chose to put their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To get the full picture of the scene you refer to you must quote verse 19 through 22 of John 20 together. This event occurred on the first day of the week just after Jesus' resurrection and the disciples were frightened out of their wits, some wondering if the resurrection was real, all worrying about how the Jewish leaders would respond to the event.

Jesus calmed them down ("Peace be with you" verse 21); then He showed them the wounds in His hands, His feet, and His side, thus confirming the resurrection. Then He repeated "Pease be with you" and added "As the Father has sent Me, I am sending you," after which the Holy Spirit came on them and anointed them with power to carry out the missionary work we read of in the Book of Acts and to lay their lives down in the process.

SLE

 

[Kit Carson]

I would probably be chased out of town with this thought, but it is only my belief and opinion based on my research, so it's up to you to believe or not. All I can say is do your own research and think.

The True Church established by the Apostles did exists throughout the ages. It is not the mega church in Rome and her daughter churches that came out of her in 'protest.' Jesus said his Church is a little flock (Luke 12:32) and is always persecuted. It is the only one that faithfully keeps all the 10 Commandments of God.

The Bible clearly prophesies that the Church at the end times will be characterized by a great apostasy. In 2Thes. 2:3 Paul said that there will be a "falling away" first before the Antichrist comes to the scene and starts the Great Trib! Well, the Church did fall into Apostasy in 1994 when it broke the Sabbath to become more "mainstream!" What was left are hundreds of splinter churches or "remnants" that still carry parts of the name.

I'm referring to the Worldwide Church of God established by Herbert W. Armstrong. You can google his name and read about it. I believe this was the true Church of God... and it is now gone. This is indeed one of the signs given in the Bible that we are living in the end times.

Good Morning:

Well ya know, with respect and as soon as I quit laughing I may say something that makes sense.

The entire Armstrong saga has been one of totally false teachers, the old man set himself up as a prophet of the end times, the latest one the last generation said there would be a nuclear bomb detonated in 2008 and says he is one of the two witnesses spoken of in the Revelation of the Bible. :shade::shade::wink:

Television preachers, the word of men for men for what men wish to hear. Put fear into them and then save them and garner their money. Lol!

Well nuff of that.......but anyone of God, who has the Holy Spirit as a guide can listen to this stuff and know every word is vile and wrong.
Yet people do seem to demand it, and eat it up and ask for second helpings. Somewhere along the line they throw God away and begin to worship their own thoughts.

We are the church. I am a part of the church of Jesus. Each believer who openly and honestly says I believe in Jesus is a part of the church of Jesus. The church of Jesus and the Kingdom of God is us, the believer. The church is not the man made idea of church as it is defined today. It is not mega buildings and support of all the nonsense that goes with that. So the believer is and becomes the church of Jesus, you see it is a spiritual thing, it is not a material thing or something you can put in a box. It is spiritual.

Another asks what specifically is the Holy Spirit. It is a gift from God to those who do believe.
How to explain that one......gee.......before I fully accepted God I knew right from wrong, I had a inner wish to do good, but I gave little credit to God for anything. After fully accepting God and calling on his Son Jesus, somehow, someway, I was given a spirit that fights the war with my own doubts. I will question, I will ask, I will wander about two blocks down the wrong road and something pulls me back and there is absolutely no way I can do any action that is wrong without conviction of that. It is a way given also so we can sense the things being said are wrong and a sense of what is actually going on in someones life that needs help. Hard for me to explain but this is the Holy Spirit.

Others speak of the gifts......I myself speak in tongues some, generally when really troubled and pestering God about something. My spirit just goes that direction. But it is for me and for my spirit, not for others. I myself do not understand the words, or the original thought does seem to not be present but present. So it is a spiritual thing. There are many false uses of that today, much of it is fake and false. It creates confusion and such in public and has no place in the context of false nonsense.

I think the gift of healing is now between the person and God. I do know it does occur today, between God an the person who requests it in prayer.

But it does not happen by a man to other men, today. There is an emotional side to that, and when all are gathered together, with support and compassion, yes emotions come to the surface and there is nothing wrong with that, and it is all helpful and comforting to the one who is sick.....but..........God says, Kit you are a man, you live in the world and if you did heal someone and it did become known, it would start a dog and pony show, such as we see in it false way of today. Such as the Benny Hinn nonsense. I do think support and gathering and all the compassion and prayer from others does play a large role in things. But God will not let any man use this for power and gain, so what you see today is all false.

I would heal all the sick, I would kill or execute all the criminals that commit terrible and violent crimes........but God says.....Kit you can speak to me about this, you can gripe all you want........I know your heart........but you are a man and just do not know all you think you do.....so I accept that and cry to God sometimes in the spirit and this is the Holy Spirit.

Do not think Words can explain, as it is spiritual, and we the believer are the church.

Respectfully

Kit

 

[John Zain]

I am not very sure where this thread is going, it started out with
"What happened to all this?", and I can only assume it means where are the gifts at today.
I am sort of waiting for the punch line so to speak.

Yes, it's time to get to the punch line ...

Question: Why have NOT the ministries and spiritual gifts in the OP
been in very many churches during the past 2000 years?

Answers:
1) Satan is the god and ruler of this world, the most powerful liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
2) Most church leaders have been deceived into an incorrect view of 1 Cor 13:10.
3) Most church leaders are not open to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the 5-fold ministry, the 9 spiritual gifts, etc.
4) Most church leaders who are open (but have not been anointed with point 3)
prefer to ignore all of this to prevent embarrassment.
Perhaps I've left out a few things?

----------------------------

Like all of us, the disciples were "born again" at the moment they chose to put their faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. To get the full picture of the scene you refer to you must quote verse 19 through 22 of John 20 together. This event occurred on the first day of the week just after Jesus' resurrection and the disciples were frightened out of their wits, some wondering if the resurrection was real, all worrying about how the Jewish leaders would respond to the event.
Jesus calmed them down ("Peace be with you" verse 21); then He showed them the wounds in His hands, His feet, and His side, thus confirming the resurrection. Then He repeated "Pease be with you" and added "As the Father has sent Me, I am sending you," after which the Holy Spirit came on them and anointed them with power to carry out the missionary work we read of in the Book of Acts and to lay their lives down in the process.

Yes, I agree that this is indeed what most probably happened.
The 11 were anointed with spiritual power to evangelize, etc.
but the Holy Spirit did not go inside of them (i.e. fill their spirits).

My only minor problem with this is ...
it doesn't follow the pattern in the OT and NT where a special anointing occurs
when the Holy Spirit comes UPON the person(s).

SPECIAL ANOINTING FOR MINISTRY ... the Holy Spirit is placed UPON the person,
i.e. it has nothing at all to do with salvation when the Holy Spirit goes INSIDE.

--------------------

Please allow me to say that the 9 spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 are extremely special gifts,
which are given by the Lord to those who are chosen for special ministries
(even if they are "only" intercessors, prayer warriors, etc.).

None of these 9 gifts play any part in the lives of normal born-again Christians,
who may believe they have one or more of these gifts.
In this case, these gifts are not operating in anything even closely approaching the maximum.
E.G. a believer may think they have the gift of faith, but this has nothing to do with 1 Cor 12.

Nothing close to the maximum is possible without having the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brother Mike]

Spiritual Gifts.

Yes, it's time to get to the punch line ...

Question: Why have NOT the ministries and spiritual gifts in the OP
been in very many churches during the past 2000 years?

Well, certainly Satan would like to keep the Church in the dark as much as possible about these gifts.
You work on someone for 10 years, making them sick and feeble, then in one sec all your hard efforts are destroyed, it's no wonder many churches teach today that these gifts have long passed away.

Thank you for the punch line, looked as if the thread was getting away from the important topic. Where are the gifts, and why are not all Churches operating in them, or giving the Holy Spirit a place to operate as he wills?

Jesus is Lord.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Where are the gifts, and why are not all Churches operating in them, or giving the Holy Spirit a place to operate as he wills?

It seems to me that the enemy has done a good job of spreading Phariseeism in the modern church. How many times have we heard "We've never done it that way before"?

SLE

 

[JosephLove]

Jesus Christ promised that He would build His church and that His church would never be destroyed.
If the Apostles were here today-what would they think of our modern churches. Would they observe Sunday as the Lord's day of rest. Would they join in with the pagan traditions of Easter and Christmas or follow many that believe the Law was " nailed to the cross"
Or would they be shocked to find customs and beliefs, now labeled ' christian ' were completely unknown to the first century church.
Would they be amazed we don't keep God's holydays like Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles anymore-even though they were made for mankind and were required to be kept forever.
How many churches continue to preach the Gospel of Jesus about His return to set up His kingdom here on earth.
when did everything change?

What an awesome statement! So much truth in what you have said!
Yes, we all should closely examine why we believe what we believe, and why we do what we do.

When did things change since the days of the New Testament church? Great question!

 

[Brother Mike]

very good point.

SpiritLedEd

It seems to me that the enemy has done a good job of spreading Phariseeism in the modern church. How many times have we heard "We've never done it that way before"?

Very good point!!

There are some good churches holding on the truth in God's word staying from sin, but yet can't see the Holy Spirit as a big part of ministry. Seem to be set in their ways.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

can't see the Holy Spirit as a big part of ministry

Please paint me a word picture of what this looks like, to see the Holy Spirit as a big part of the ministry as opposed to what it looks like when he is not. Please spend a lot of effort to show the detail as you can.

 

[Brother Mike]

paint a picture.

Paint a picture? Chad needs to add some drawing controls, but I doubt anything I drew would be recognizable.

When I say they can't see The Holy Spirit as a big part of ministry, they feel and fully believe they have all of the Holy Ghost they can get. If you talk to pastors as I have that preach that tongues have long passed away, or Healing miracles where there to get the church going (Not that anyone would possibly need healed today) They will admit without any issue that they have the Holy Spirit in full.

This is what Ed was talking about, since there is always more the Holy Spirit would like to do for us, and through us.

God confirms his Word with signs following. If the Word is going out that these gifts have passed away, guess what is not getting confirmed? All the things that are not for everyone, or passed away.

When asked by a Pastor to preach a Sunday night meeting, i just accepted out of respect. I knew full well the people there did not believe like I did, and I knew they did not much care for me. I tried to stay away from the night service, and ran the day service.

After teaching a girl came up and gave her life to Jesus, we had a landslide of One. It was just the girl and I on stage, and everyone was looking. So I took her through a prayer of repentance and accepting the Lord which she did in tears.

When that was done, it was time to make tracks out of there, but she did not leave the platform. She asked me in front of everyone.

Will God heal my stomach.

What would be a proper response?

Jesus Is Lord.