trying to understand mat 24

[jari]

These where Slain for the Word of God, and testimony they held. Not preaching the Gospel of Christ, not called Christians. In heaven they were given White robes making the white in the Blood of the Lamb.

You and I Jari are covered by the Blood Now, we preach the Gospel of Christ. We are saved by grace and not works.

These made it because they held onto the Word of God and their testimony. The 144,000 Jewish people are servants of God that carry the testimony of Jesus and Gods word.

There are also many Christians who do not really serve God, and once tribulation hits and the Church taken, they wake up. God is still not willing that anyone perish, and still has a plan for those to make it during the Tribulation. Many won't though.

its nowhere said that only some would go through trib.

and they were not jews as it says

" of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,"

they were also more than 144k

and saved by grace even they held in testimony Jesus spoke about this in mat 24.

 

[Brother Mike]

umm

I never said they where the 144,000 they don't leave until later. The 144,000 are sealed as servants of God, to give light and the testimony of Jesus.

The 144,000 appear later in heaven, so of course it could not the ones described in Rev 6-7.

 

[jari]

I fail to see how scripture supports what you say Mike..


are you also stating that there are 2 x 144000 ?


this topic can get confusing but its quite clear to me that they are Christians who are in tribulation. Otherwise there would be no point talking about this in the bible.
And its clear really from mat 24 and rev 6-7 but when you start reason with rest of revelations it can get confusing.

 

[Brother Mike]

It can be hard to understand.

No Jari.............

Just because there is a tribulation going on, God still has a plan to save many.

He Seals his Jewish servants 144,000 to take the message and testimony of Jesus and God's Word into the Tribulation period.

God as Paul stated in Romans has a plan to just focus and deal with his Jewish People. They in effect are given back their priest hood to take the word of God in the World. I am sure the 144,000 will be all over the planet as the Jewish population is today.

Through giving God's Word, many hold onto the truth believing God through the tribulation and escape.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

These people under the altar where slain not for being Christians, but for holding truth to God's Word. If they where Christians, the bible might have stated that.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

While in Heaven White robes where given to them.

One of the elders asked John if he knew who these people where. John said do you know.
John asked what these people be who where in white robes............

John would have known right away if these where his Brothers and sisters in Christ, this is why he was asked if he knew them and John did not.

rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These people came out of the great tribulation, they wanted God to avenge their people. Christians do not speak that way, we are told to forgive them Lord, they know not what they do.

They where given robes in Heaven.......... The robes where given to them in Heaven then the Blood of the lamb covered them for holding the word of God and their testimony. The Blood came when they received their robes.

You and I Jari are washed by the Blood now. Not when we get to heaven.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

No Jari.............

Just because there is a tribulation going on, God still has a plan to save many.

He Seals his Jewish servants 144,000 to take the message and testimony of Jesus and God's Word into the Tribulation period.

God as Paul stated in Romans has a plan to just focus and deal with his Jewish People. They in effect are given back their priest hood to take the word of God in the World. I am sure the 144,000 will be all over the planet as the Jewish population is today.

Through giving God's Word, many hold onto the truth believing God through the tribulation and escape.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

These people under the altar where slain not for being Christians, but for holding truth to God's Word. If they where Christians, the bible might have stated that.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

While in Heaven White robes where given to them.

One of the elders asked John if he knew who these people where. John said do you know.
John asked what these people be who where in white robes............

John would have known right away if these where his Brothers and sisters in Christ, this is why he was asked if he knew them and John did not.

rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These people came out of the great tribulation, they wanted God to avenge their people. Christians do not speak that way, we are told to forgive them Lord, they know not what they do.

They where given robes in Heaven.......... The robes where given to them in Heaven then the Blood of the lamb covered them for holding the word of God and their testimony. The Blood came when they received their robes.

You and I Jari are washed by the Blood now. Not when we get to heaven.

Jesus Is Lord.

here's the verses again :

Rev 7:9 AfterG3326 thisG5023 I beheld,G1492 and,G2532 lo,G2400 a greatG4183 multitude,G3793 whichG3739 no manG3762 couldG1410 number,G705 (G846) ofG1537 allG3956 nations,G1484 andG2532 kindreds,G5443 andG2532 people,G2992 andG2532 tongues,G1100 stoodG2476 beforeG1799 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 beforeG1799 theG3588 Lamb,G721 clothedG4016 with whiteG3022 robes,G4749 andG2532 palmsG5404 inG1722 theirG848 hands;G5495


G2992 - PEOPLE
λαός
laos
lah-os'
Apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from G1218, which denotes one’s own populace): - people.




G1484 - NATIONs
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.



G5443 - KINDREDs
φυλή
phulē
foo-lay'
From G5453 (compare G5444); an offshoot, that is, race or clan: - kindred, tribe.

Jews are tribe, or race. These people where from different Races and from different People. Jews are one People.


Also its not said at which point they washed their robes clean. Though there might be slight implicaton but it isnt clear.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you.

Thank you for taking the time to get in some Greek to sort this out.

G1484 - NATIONs
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

I never said the people in heaven were Jewish, I said the 144,000 Jewish people that were sealed as servants of God to give the Word and testimony about Jesus where all over the globe, seeing how the Jewish people still are scattered everywhere.

So, the people in Heaven held on to the word of God, and their testimony, most likely hearing the work of some of those 144,000 Jewish people and escaped tribulation by loving God.

Also its not said at which point they washed their robes clean. Though there might be slight implicaton but it isnt clear.

No, we don't know which point, but we do know they had gotten their robes in Heaven. Since the Robe was already White, washed white by the blood, we can only reason they heard the truth about Jesus once in heaven.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These people where under the Altar of Souls wanting vengeance on those on earth. So whatever happened to them, the people where on earth that did them wrong. We Christians do not ask for vengeance against someone, this denotes those that held God's Word as true as the scripture say, but do not have the concept of what a Christian is.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God has a place to hide and protect the Jewish people as Jesus said, run into the mountains and pray the day does not come on the sabbath. So, these people or most of them most likely where not Jewish but killed for what they believe, and they would not deny God unto death.

The White robe was given to them in Heaven, which also means they where not Christians when they had been killed, Hence John asking who these people where seeing they where not Christians but in heaven anyway.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Hi Mike.

here's you something to ponder.

No, we don't know which point, but we do know they had gotten their robes in Heaven. Since the Robe was already White, washed white by the blood, we can only reason they heard the truth about Jesus once in heaven.

its just symbolism. it isnt said they got robes in heaven or become "believers" in heaven.

These people where under the Altar of Souls wanting vengeance on those on earth. So whatever happened to them, the people where on earth that did them wrong. We Christians do not ask for vengeance against someone, this denotes those that held God's Word as true as the scripture say, but do not have the concept of what a Christian is.

why not? God will vengage, why it is wrong to ask vengage then?

God has a place to hide and protect the Jewish people as Jesus said, run into the mountains and pray the day does not come on the sabbath. So, these people or most of them most likely where not Jewish but killed for what they believe, and they would not deny God unto death.

why would Jesus give warnings to jews to flee? they dont even read bible or any writing about what Jesus says so it would be vain too.


Luk 21:20-23 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

If God revenges to israel in His wrath why would He instruct them to flee?

Oh by the way Jerusalem was conqured in 70 AD. and many other times too. But it seems what Jesus said about jerusalem has become true already.

 

[Brother Mike]

oh my.......

Jari

its just symbolism. it isnt said they got robes in heaven or become "believers" in heaven.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

They are under the Altar of souls, they are there because the held that God's word is true. God's plan to bring many out of tribulation.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They have died on earth, they are in heaven, they are then given White robes washed in the blood of the lamb. They where not given symbols, but robes "AFTER" they died.

why not? God will vengage, why it is wrong to ask vengage then?

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

As a Christian, we should follow the example of our Lord and Master Jesus.

When Stephen was stoned.............

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

If you want heads to roll Jari for vengeance against those that may have killed you, then OK with me. I am going to follow the example of Jesus and Stephen being a Christian and ask God to have mercy on them.

why would Jesus give warnings to jews to flee? they dont even read bible or any writing about what Jesus says so it would be vain too.

As I "ALREADY" said......... the Jewish people are God's people. Jesus was sent to minister to the Jews.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Who can you think might be living in Judea and Keep the Sabbath Holy? tourist just visiting Judea?

If God revenges to israel in His wrath why would He instruct them to flee?

If you read Romans chapter 8-11 you will know God has a plan to keep his covenant with Abraham and save the Jewish people, not kill them off.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

They have died on earth, they are in heaven, they are then given White robes washed in the blood of the lamb. They where not given symbols, but robes "AFTER" they died.

word after does not appear anywhere there Mike.

Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

As a Christian, we should follow the example of our Lord and Master Jesus.

When Stephen was stoned.............

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

So why does God break His own word? He tells us to make peace and him self revenges?

the people in rev demanding vengage are christians who are only lining up with God's will.

i know its confusing but it can be looked as punishment for the unrepentant who never repented their murders.

because its not like the murderers of christians get to heaven just because they prayed for them. They need to come to knowledge of the truth. but if they wont repent (admit their sin) then they wont.

As I "ALREADY" said......... the Jewish people are God's people. Jesus was sent to minister to the Jews.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Who can you think might be living in Judea and Keep the Sabbath Holy? tourist just visiting Judea?

what does sabbath have to do with this?

are they gona delay their leaving due to sabbath? no
But jerusalem being full of jews it effects christians too

If you read Romans chapter 8-11 you will know God has a plan to keep his covenant with Abraham and save the Jewish people, not kill them off.

one word: holocaust. check the prophecies about israel too in OT, lot of God's punishment on His people there.

of the chosent people only remnant is saved. For not all israel is israel.

whom else was the wrath for that Jesus spoke about?

 

[Brother Mike]

Matt 24.

Jari
*** Post deleted by me*****

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

If you want heads to roll Jari for vengeance against those that may have killed you, then OK with me. I am going to follow the example of Jesus and Stephen being a Christian and ask God to have mercy on them.

I am completely with you here as I ask that God not lay anything to the charge of those who wrong me. That said, it isn't something all Christians do or have to for that matter. Read Luke 18:7.

Gary

 

[jari]

Mike I quoted what you said and replied to that. but you took some of my answers as answer to some other topic. No, i answered your statements directly..

and.. if you dont like my answers then its ok.. but i wish you not start making fun of my answer not that i couldnt understand humor but i mean it seems you didnt see the point i made.
perhaps im just not good making points but i know i do have those and im content of my own answer...

 

[jari]

I am completely with you here as I ask that God not lay anything to the charge of those who wrong me. That said, it isn't something all Christians do or have to for that matter. Read Luke 18:7.

Gary

these topics are very different.. yes we need to forgive etc. But generally speaking do we wish people well when they kill and hurt others?
id say no.
when we read from news that 12 christians has been slauthered do we say. "Bless those enemies of the Lord!!!"
?

maybe rather "lord save our brethen" ? which is basically demanding either vengage or escape for brethen depending the situation. but most the time we'd probably think if only some authority would step between to protect our brethen which could mean punishing the murderes.
is this wrong thing to wish then for murderers?

i think not... because its right to wish for peace and safety.

so thinking that rev isnt that far off considering evil will get punished sooner or later we just hope it wouldnt come to that.
if they never repent then God will punish them and its their own choise to not give up on the evil no matter how much we bless them.

Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

also Paul had he's line with alexander :

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

we are not to judge or curse but lining up with God's will like Paul did isnt sin either. He knew alexander was bringing it to him self and id think Paul didnt bless him anymore after that much evil as he stated Lord reward him according to his works.

 

[Brother Mike]

Not making fun

Jari, I was only going with what I understood you to say. I will never attack you personally, but your determination to have a post tribulation no matter what efforts I make having an answer for everything, even if it makes sense or not can get frustrating.

I mean Jesus warned about a time like the earth has never seen and it's the Holocaust? Romans was about God's plan to keep his covenant with the Jews, he was not warning of disaster, Jesus was, and it certainly was not the Holocaust which won't even compare to the end Tribulation.

Then you busted me out on the Word "After they died about getting the robes" I mean they are at the altar of souls when they got those robes washed in the blood of the lamb, If I was a betting man, I would be pretty certain one would have to be dead to even arrive there.

With that said, because my post came across wrong, I deleted it.

I did not intend to make fun of your answers, I was just hoping adding humor you might understand where I was trying to come from.

sorry.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

Hi Mike

Jari, I was only going with what I understood you to say. I will never attack you personally, but your determination to have a post tribulation no matter what efforts I make having an answer for everything, even if it makes sense or not can get frustrating.

i know, feel the same..

misunderstanding each other maybe part of the reason.

I mean Jesus warned about a time like the earth has never seen and it's the Holocaust? Romans was about God's plan to keep his covenant with the Jews, he was not warning of disaster, Jesus was, and it certainly was not the Holocaust which won't even compare to the end Tribulation.

you said:
"if you read Romans chapter 8-11 you will know God has a plan to keep his covenant with Abraham and save the Jewish people, not kill them off."
i answered:
one word: holocaust. check the prophecies about israel too in OT, lot of God's punishment on His people there.

israel faced LOT of God's wrath in the past (before holocaust and that too). so are you saying God would not never again punish them?

Then you busted me out on the Word "After they died about getting the robes" I mean they are at the altar of souls when they got those robes washed in the blood of the lamb, If I was a betting man, I would be pretty certain one would have to be dead to even arrive there.

I just dont get it. there's no indication of when everything happened. when they were in the altar when they got robes - all unclear. only reasonable assumption i think is that when they died that was their end result but they were saved at earth and not in heaven or else they would not have that status in heaven.

the robes are symbolism.. it doesnt say they werent saved on earth and have symbolically white robes on earth as well.

I did not intend to make fun of your answers, I was just hoping adding humor you might understand where I was trying to come from.

its ok. its just that when we start to joke we may more easier miss whats been said......

 

[B-A-C]

The biggest problem with the post trib theory is that Jesus said no one knows when he will come back. Verses say he will come like a thief in the night when people least expect it. I'm thinking the tribulation will be an event everyone knows about. The beast will be revealed, so it will be hard NOT to know when Jesus is coming back if this is the case.

 

[jari]

The biggest problem with the post trib theory is that Jesus said no one knows when he will come back. Verses say he will come like a thief in the night when people least expect it. I'm thinking the tribulation will be an event everyone knows about. The beast will be revealed, so it will be hard NOT to know when Jesus is coming back if this is the case.

that depends on how long the tribulation is. how quickly it ends. and other things that could happen.

and by tribulation we may know that time is near but how near? and we still have no clue of the date.

so i see it as no problem.

God bless you

 

[Brother Mike]

thanks.

B-A-C:

The biggest problem with the post trib theory is that Jesus said no one knows when he will come back. Verses say he will come like a thief in the night when people least expect it. I'm thinking the tribulation will be an event everyone knows about. The beast will be revealed, so it will be hard NOT to know when Jesus is coming back if this is the case.

that has been the big issue with Post tribers, many will be able to follow the plagues, the Antichrist declaring himself God 3 1/2 years into tribulation, the seventh angelic trumpet blast, the sun, the moon change and Jesus is right there. He said Immediately after the Tribulation he is going to return. There will be no confusion when that is going to be. We can pinpoint to the exact Hour his return once that trumpet sounds and everything goes dark.

Paul's letters to the Church told us he comes as a thief in the Night, that was to the Church. The Thief leaves no indication he is coming. He does not put a sign on our door to tell us he will be coming around 3:am to rob us.

Jesus said many places about HIS servants have no idea when their master returns. Those that call him Lord, it will be one plowing in the field as if nothing in the world is going on, then they are taken, or they are given in marriage as nothing is happening then BAM sudden destruction hits the earth.

Jesus said his coming for his servants is just like Noah, nobody knew until Noah entered the Ark and the heavy rains hit.

I am not sure how to make it more clear, but I do try.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

B-A-C:


that has been the big issue with Post tribers, many will be able to follow the plagues, the Antichrist declaring himself God 3 1/2 years into tribulation, the seventh angelic trumpet blast, the sun, the moon change and Jesus is right there. He said Immediately after the Tribulation he is going to return. There will be no confusion when that is going to be. We can pinpoint to the exact Hour his return once that trumpet sounds and everything goes dark.

Paul's letters to the Church told us he comes as a thief in the Night, that was to the Church. The Thief leaves no indication he is coming. He does not put a sign on our door to tell us he will be coming around 3:am to rob us.

Jesus said many places about HIS servants have no idea when their master returns. Those that call him Lord, it will be one plowing in the field as if nothing in the world is going on, then they are taken, or they are given in marriage as nothing is happening then BAM sudden destruction hits the earth.

Jesus said his coming for his servants is just like Noah, nobody knew until Noah entered the Ark and the heavy rains hit.

I am not sure how to make it more clear, but I do try.

Jesus Is Lord.

only if you know the length of tribulation. where did you get that number? must be some magic number...

 

[Brother Mike]

It's not a Magic Number.

No Magic number brother........... 3 1/2 years or seven years depending on who you ask.

I am not going through all the scriptures where those number are given.

3 1/2 years many speculate would not be long enough for the Antichrist to set up, they start the tribulation as a seven year period, 3 1/2 years into the Tribulation the Antichrist sits in Israel calling himself God.

After that many refer to the last 3 1/2 years as the Great Tribulation.

Either way it's a definite defined period God gave to accomplish what He intends to do, and Jesus said those days are shortened, meaning they have a specific time frame.

All I can do is prove two cases of seven years or 3 1/2 years but seven is the start of something and completion of it.


Jesus Is Lord.