Heaven, Hell, Earth, Lake of Fire

[Miss Elly]

I am not trying to be difficult regarding time.

Time is relative to the observer gdemoss.

The younger you are the slower it seems.

The older you are the faster it is.

What pace is it really moving at?

It is relates to the observer, it is in the end subjective.

From God's perspective, your hear one day gone the next.

Somewhat like the grass in the field.

Perspective is all.

Time is a relative quantity.

what does philosophy and mysticism have to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ??? Just read the bible and accept it.

 

[brakelite]

So what do you do with what Jesus said about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being alive event though their body died? God is a God of the living not the dead.

The verse in Mark 12:26, 27 reads like this: "And as touching the dead, that they rise; have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." Please notice that Jesus was speaking about the resurrection when He spoke about God being the God of the living. He gave no indication at all that these people were living at the time of the resurrection. God is the God of the living, in the same sense that He has power over the grave and over death. In John 5:28, 29 Jesus said this: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Here Jesus made it very clear that the righteous would be rewarded with immortality in the time of the resurrection, and the wicked would be punished for their sins at the time of their resurrection. There are scores of other texts which prove that the dead do not go immediately to their punishment or reward. They are all sleeping the sleep of death in their graves until the glorious resurrection morning when all will come forth to receive the judgment and the rewards.
Obviously, no one can be punished or rewarded until after the judgment takes place. Even an earthly judge would be considered very wicked to send a man to his punishment before having his trial and hearing the judgment. In 2 Peter 2:9 we read: "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." Surely there can be no misunderstanding of these terms. The Bible emphatically states that no one will be punished until after the judgment takes place at the end of the world.

 

[David777]

Hello Miss Elly.

It may appear that I originated the debate about time. I did not.

If you read and check the posts, you will find that I was
attempting to correct gdemoss.

I only offered an alternative option on our understanding of time and the dead in Christ.

It was him miss not me.

 

[gdemoss]

The verse in Mark 12:26, 27 reads like this: "And as touching the dead, that they rise; have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err." Please notice that Jesus was speaking about the resurrection when He spoke about God being the God of the living. He gave no indication at all that these people were living at the time of the resurrection. God is the God of the living, in the same sense that He has power over the grave and over death. In John 5:28, 29 Jesus said this: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." Here Jesus made it very clear that the righteous would be rewarded with immortality in the time of the resurrection, and the wicked would be punished for their sins at the time of their resurrection. There are scores of other texts which prove that the dead do not go immediately to their punishment or reward. They are all sleeping the sleep of death in their graves until the glorious resurrection morning when all will come forth to receive the judgment and the rewards.
Obviously, no one can be punished or rewarded until after the judgment takes place. Even an earthly judge would be considered very wicked to send a man to his punishment before having his trial and hearing the judgment. In 2 Peter 2:9 we read: "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." Surely there can be no misunderstanding of these terms. The Bible emphatically states that no one will be punished until after the judgment takes place at the end of the world.

Brendon, I see what your saying, I have read those scriptures too but to lean wholly on them is to ignore others that speak to the contrary. This is something that I have found in all areas of scripture and I have found it to have a rock solid purpose. They don't contradict one another but limit and mold each other to give a complete picture. It is like 1 John 2:1-2 and Hebrews 10:26. They obviously say two different things. One the sin is forgiven the other it is not. But together they limit one another to show what type of sin is forgiven. As far as all this business about what happens after death, I haven't found the combination that works with 'all' of scripture so that I can be certain.

I do appreciate you sharing your views though,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

It may appear that I originated the debate about time. I did not.

If you read and check the posts, you will find that I was
attempting to correct gdemoss.

I only offered an alternative option on our understanding of time and the dead in Christ.

It was him miss not me.

Attempting to correct? Starting a debate? When you decide that you are going to put yourself out there and 'correct' those who you perceive to be wrong, you invite 'counter correction' which in some circles is considered debate. In others just an attempt to correct a misguided teacher. Either way, have a nice day.

Gary

 

[David777]

Hello gdemoss.

Here is what you said, "Time exists inside of God the Father."

Time commenced in Genesis with the announcement "The first day".

We are of course referring to time as we understand it.

Now, you claimed that time exists within God the father?

I see time as an external dimension applied to creation.

Please provide the scriptures to support your proposition
that time exist in the father.

 

[gdemoss]

Here is what you said, "Time exists inside of God the Father."

Time commenced in Genesis with the announcement "The first day".

We are of course referring to time as we understand it.

Now, you claimed that time exists within God the father?

I see time as an external dimension applied to creation.

Please provide the scriptures to support your proposition
that time exist in the father.

For in him we live, and move and have our being. Everything is inside of God the Father. Acts 17

 

[David777]

Nice try gdemoss.

You are trying to wiggle out.

Let's examine your quote:

<sup id="en-NIV-27552" class="versenum">28</sup> ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said,..." Acts 17:28

Yes, within the scope of the created landscape.

Nothing can exist outside of God in the sense that He is all.

This creation does exist only within the confines that God defines.

Or, because we exist in God do we possess the attributes of God?

Are we eternal because God is eternal?
No, God set creation into a finite realm.
It has a start and finish, God does not.

God crafts the dimensions, one dimension is time.

Time is not in God, time is in creation, which is held within His will.



This is one difficult subject to deal with.

 

[gdemoss]

You are trying to wiggle out.

Let's examine your quote:

<sup id="en-NIV-27552" class="versenum">28</sup> ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said,..." Acts 17:28

Very sneaky, but if you read the rest of your quote.

It was the poets who claimed this. Not Paul.

Naughty, naughty, naughty.

Trying to wiggle out? Your observations speak volumes of what is truly in your heart.

I have read it very closely, especially now that you have brought it to my attention. I am always open to being wrong and repenting as can be found on this forum but this time I have to stand on what I have said as true.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

The semicolon after the word 'being' is more than a comma but less than a period while the comma after 'said' would suggest that the poets had said 'For we are also his offspring'. But in either case we must give every word its due. The word 'also' found in 'as certain also' is saying that they have said these things as well as Paul is preaching them.

So it is either Paul and the certain other who have said we live and move in him or just Paul did and he and the certain other both said 'we are also his offspring'.

The heaven of heavens nor the entire universe can contain God but they are all contained within God. After all he is everywhere all at once with his whole being. How else is he omnipresent or omniscient? We serve an awesomely powerful God who doesn't miss anything.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[David777]

Yet again.

God is Spirit.

The Creation is not Spiritual.

Creation is physical and has its presence within the Spiritual.

Creation is a contained entity, mankind is of the flesh not spirit.

God creates in pure love, his goal is always loving.

God cannot will into existence evil, evil manifests in opposition.

This is not God's will gdemoss.

 

[gdemoss]

God is Spirit.

The Creation is not Spiritual.

Creation is physical and has its presence within the Spiritual.

Creation is a contained entity, mankind is of the flesh not spirit.

God creates in pure love, his goal is always loving.

God cannot will into existence evil, evil manifests in opposition.

This is not God's will gdemoss.

Not true. Mankind is of the flesh and the spirit. Every man is animated by his spirit. When God comes to dwell within the believer there are then two spirits within the temple of flesh.

It is through the spirit, a mans own spirit that is one spirit with the Holy Spirit dwelling in the temple of God, that mortifies the deeds of the flesh.

As for Gods love, it is one of his many attributes. He is a whole God and not merely an attribute of himself. God is Love but Love is not God. Those who make the mistake of misunderstanding God as a whole will suffer for it.

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

God is Spirit.

The Creation is not Spiritual.

Creation is physical and has its presence within the Spiritual.

Creation is a contained entity, mankind is of the flesh not spirit.

God creates in pure love, his goal is always loving.

God cannot will into existence evil, evil manifests in opposition.

This is not God's will gdemoss.

Evem mores simply put....GOD is LOVE. Anything HE does shines with LOVE HE cannot lie because anything HE speaks becomes. HE is GOOD so anything HE creates is GOOD IF everything that is comes from HIM and HE is GOOD how can GOOD produce evil?

 

[David777]

Hello all.

One step at a time gdemoss.

Back to Isaiah 45:7, and the one word mistranslation in the KJV.

Here, read the following,

The scriptures clearly teach that God cannot be the author of evil.

Psalm 145:17

The LORD is righteous in all His ways,
Gracious in all His works.

Psalm 5:4 (NKJV)

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Check the following out regarding Isaiah 45:7

I quote John Haley:

Evil means natural, and not moral evil, or sin.

Herderson says ""affliction, adversity";

Calvin, "afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences."

Whichever interpretation may be adopted, none of the above texts,
nor any others when properly explained, sanction the revolting proposition that God is the author of sin." (Come reason Ministries)

Gdemoss do you still want to sit out on that skinny branch supported
by one word with variable translation options.

Your using a medieval translation gdemoss.

 

[David777]

Again gdemoss.

You said gdemoss

As for Gods love, it is one of his many attributes. He is a whole God and not merely an attribute of himself. God is Love but Love is not God. Those who make the mistake of misunderstanding God as a whole will suffer for it.

Get real gdemoss, do you read what you post.
Misunderstanding God?

This is what I say,

Attributes of God, perhaps you would like to read the following verses:

1 John 4:8 (NKJV)
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

1 Timothy 1:5
Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

Colossians 3:14
But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

1 John 2:10
He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

Gdemoss your theology may be diverting you from the truth in all its beautiful fullness. We who have the mind of Christ can do nothing else but aspire to complete love from a pure heart, focused on Jesus Christ and full of the Holy Spirit.

 

[gdemoss]

Gdemoss do you still want to sit out on that skinny branch supported
by one word with variable translation options.

Your using a medieval translation gdemoss.

So your saying that since God is Love he bears no responsibility for the creation of evil, even though he knew exactly what would happen when he spoke the first word of creation? If someone knowingly does something that they know for a fact is going to cause others harm they bear no responsibility? I don't buy it. God takes full responsibility for his actions and even sent his own son to atone for the sin of man. Although Satan didn't have to sin and will bear his punishment for it, God always knew he would do it from before the foundation of the world. In the end it all comes down to the fact that God is God. He will have mercy upon who he will have mercy upon. He will crush a man like Job if he wishes. He will send his only begotten son to bear the sins of many and be pleased to crush him. He will chasten all his children and scourge every son he receives. He is God. He is righteous in all his ways. He brings evil people upon Israel to destroy the temple and scatter the people. He sends out mighty men to slaughter cities and destroy women, children and babies. I do not disagree with the fact that everything he has ever done is righteous. I have just changed my idea of what being righteous is.

I quote a medieval translation, but I refer back to Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic for the purpose of study. The KJV is not without its flaws but I wouldn't be so fast to think that our modern translations are doing any better in truthfully translating the text.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[David777]

hello gdemoss.

I dare say you are making progress.

If you understand Jesus is perfect, infinite love. Then whatever He creates is done through pure love.

Look at Jesus Christ and what He endured, in love to rescue us from ourselves. This is perfect, pure love in action.

I am not able to question anything God does, He is perfect and He loves me so deeply I do not even grasp this love.

For God so loved the World that He sent....

God is love is the only true way to understand God, every act is loving, even judgement. Hell could be the abode of the rejected love of God.

Humans hurt each other gdemoss, not God.

Humans reject the love of God by rejecting Jesus who is God.

God would never create evil, ever. This contradicts everything we know about God.

 

[brakelite]

So your saying that since God is Love he bears no responsibility for the creation of evil, even though he knew exactly what would happen when he spoke the first word of creation? If someone knowingly does something that they know for a fact is going to cause others harm they bear no responsibility? I don't buy it. God takes full responsibility for his actions and even sent his own son to atone for the sin of man. Although Satan didn't have to sin and will bear his punishment for it, God always knew he would do it from before the foundation of the world. In the end it all comes down to the fact that God is God. He will have mercy upon who he will have mercy upon. He will crush a man like Job if he wishes. He will send his only begotten son to bear the sins of many and be pleased to crush him. He will chasten all his children and scourge every son he receives. He is God. He is righteous in all his ways. He brings evil people upon Israel to destroy the temple and scatter the people. He sends out mighty men to slaughter cities and destroy women, children and babies. I do not disagree with the fact that everything he has ever done is righteous. I have just changed my idea of what being righteous is.

I quote a medieval translation, but I refer back to Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic for the purpose of study. The KJV is not without its flaws but I wouldn't be so fast to think that our modern translations are doing any better in truthfully translating the text.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

gdemoss, in His foreknowledg God knew that Lucifer would rebel, yes. In His foreknowledge God knew that man would also succumb to the temptations of the devil through the serpent, yes. But because man did so of his own volition; because God had given man every advantage in creating him perfect and with a heart imbued with the love of God and the free will to match, man is fully and solely responsible for his own sin. To lay any blame upon God for man's fall or to lay any responsibility upon God for sin, is to make God a sinner. God's foreknowledge does not alter man's power of choice. That we use this most precious gift of life for evil uses is not God's fault.

Your premise is predicated on your belief that quote:" if someone knew for a fact that it would cause others harm etc....."
Your whole premise is wrong. It was not the creation of man, nor his environment that caused anyone any harm. There was nothing inherently evil in creation. Sin first appeared in Lucifer in the form of pride which developed into lust and covetousness. God would have loved Lucifer and given him every opportunity, warning, and counsel to change his ways, including also of course the one third of angels who decided to follow him in his rebellion. God never created robots that were forced to do his will. The great (but dangerous) value in love is the risk that it might not be returned. Does that make the concept of love itself evil? No, never.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Sin first appeared in Lucifer in the form of pride which developed into lust and covetousness. God would have loved Lucifer and given him every opportunity, warning, and counsel to change his ways, including also of course the one third of angels who decided to follow him in his rebellion.

So much of Christianity's beliefs are based on this assumption.
This story is based on Ezekiel's description of the Kings of the earth.
The conclusion that Satan is the being described just does not hold up under scrutiny.
Remember Nimrod tried to take over heaven,he and others like Adam himself qualify.There are answers if you research.
I recommend finding out what the Jews believed these things meant.
Research the history of Ezekiel and Isaiah and consider the context,that they were speaking to pagan kings and incorporated those kings beliefs.In today's context it would be like a rant against the 1%.
I know everyone thinks I'm some kind of nutcase but if you are wrong about Ezekiel and Isaiah then the whole pre-garden(which I can't find any reference to) story is just an elaborate fairy tale.

The reference in the book of Job is where we get the idea of the foundation scenery.Some think the rebellion in revelation is tied in but then they say we are waiting for the rest of the book of revelation to be fulfilled.
It is much more fun to believe in fairy tales but don't be surprised if an Atheist beats you over the head with these things.

 

[Brother Mike]

Concept of God

brakelite:

in His foreknowledg God knew that Lucifer would rebel, yes. In His foreknowledge God knew that man would also succumb to the temptations of the devil through the serpent, yes

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


God speaks, he declares the end of things from where they started. Those things that are not as he would like them to be, He calls them as they should be to the pleasure and counsel of his own will.

He speaks, it happens. What he spoke over, must line up with his will.


So God speaks, and declares things for his pleasure. What is his pleasure though?

Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (Plans of welfare and not of calamity, To give you a future and a hope.) YLT in ()

God is a faith God, Jesus said none is good but God (Mar 10:18) Everything God created, He saw that it was Good. (Except for one place, it was so, but that can be examined later.)

God only thinks Good for someone. He thinks thoughts of peace, and not Evil.

Psa 35:27 Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

so, if God already knew the devil would go sour, why create the devil in the first place?

If God only thinks good things toward us, takes pleasure in our Prosperity, wanting to give us good gifts, why create man if he knew man would fall??? If he already knew these things, why do something against his very nature?

I heard it often said....... "ya Brother Mike, God already knew Adam would fall, he wanted to show mankind that they need Him, It was in his plan of salvation."

Really? That is not what God said..................

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

The choice to make man Grieved God.........to worry, pain or anger: - displease, grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest.

To say God knew ahead of time he would do something he would need to repent of, and cause himself grief would be to say God knowingly makes mistakes, and causes himself pain and grief.

God is a faith God though, what he told Satan had to come to pass.
(Gen 3:14-15)

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD...... You know the rest of the story.


brakelite: could you provide the forum scriptures to back what you stated? God had foreknowledge that the devil would turn on him, and God had Foreknowledge that Adam would fall into temptation.

Thank you..


Jesus is Lord.

 

[gdemoss]

brakelite: could you provide the forum scriptures to back what you stated? God had foreknowledge that the devil would turn on him, and God had Foreknowledge that Adam would fall into temptation.

Mike, God not only knows all things that will happen, he knows every possible outcome for any action he might take. Consider what Jesus said about Sodom. He declared that if the works done in Capernaum were done in Sodom they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Gods omniscience cannot be questioned. He had foreknowledge of Satan's rebellion. The differing opinion between the two consensuses here is what responsibility God has in creating that which he knew would rebel. God has chosen to do a great many things that baffle the mind. Humans were granted repentance unto salvation but angels were not. It is true that the scriptures declare that Gods thoughts and wishes toward Israel were to be good. That cannot be turned into a universal truth about all as we well know that Gods thoughts and wishes toward Satan are not good. He created a place of torment solely for him and his fallen angels.

Peace,

Gary