Heaven, Hell, Earth, Lake of Fire

[gdemoss]

I used to think that they bible taught that when we die we go to heaven or hell. I am not quite sure about that anymore as a lot of doctrines I was taught I later found out to be bogus lies.

What I would like to do with this thread is hash out the details about what happens when we die. It is my current understanding that the 'breath of lie' or 'spirit' that animates us goes back to God. It is the 'soul' that is in question, that which the Psalms said of Jesus' soul would not be left in Hell and the 'soul' that God can kill, why Jesus says we should fear the Father.

Do you hold to the belief that you are going to heaven when you die? Why? What scripture do you use to validate your claim?

Do you believe that some peoples souls go to Hell when they die awaiting judgement upon the resurrection of the unjust? What scripture do you use to validate your claim?

Do you believe that time will someday end and you will live in some timeless existence of bliss or something else? Again Scripture please.

I have heard a great deal of ideas that surround what happens when we die and how we will spend eternity. As I read, reread and reread the scriptures, I am seeing a totally different outcome of life after death and the subsequent resurrection of the Just and the Unjust. It seems to me that we were created to live on the earth and that is to be our final existence. Life on the new earth with Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and God the Father as God. The lake of fire as a final end of all that which offends in Gods earth.

The very first scripture that moved me away from the ideas that were given to me about dying and going to Heaven was from Acts 2. Peter gives testimony of the patriarch Davids existence after death. He says that David is both dead and buried, his sepulchre being with them unto that day. He said David is not ascended into the heavens. I was always taught that Jesus took David and all who were in 'paradise' or 'Abrahams bosom' with him when he ascended into heaven. That he 'took captivity captive' they said but these scriptures in Acts deny that to be truth.

I know that Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now from this one can draw an idea that it means to be in heaven with Christ or that one is dead and sleeping unconsciously unto the return of Christ and the first Resurrection.

Jesus says to his disciples that he goes to prepare a place for them that where he is they may be also but we also know that the city of God comes down from heaven to the new earth. So it leaves the possibility open for either case.

We know that there are souls under the altar awaiting God to exact revenge for them but these were all martyrs. How many other scriptures support the idea of people in heaven?

We know from scripture that there are two resurrections. One at the opening of the millennial Kingdom and the other at the end just before the new heaven and earth are revealed. One that the second death has no power over and the other where some are ordained to life while the others get the lake of fire toss in.

Any beliefs that you maintain and would like to share, I would love to hear. When scripture is given to me to support an idea, I like to go back to study it within its context seeking truth that I may come to a final conclusion on the matter. It seems to me that this is a complex matter that deserves more research.

What I do know is that God is not a God of the dead but the living so the body may die but the soul is very alive indeed.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[Kit Carson]

I am going to cry!!!!! If God came to earth today and gave a speech he would cry also.

Gods word is Gods word, it is all so very simple. We are born in sin and God gave his Son for us. We can accept Christ or not, it is up to us. When we do we are saved. Very simple.

When we die we sleep, just like Christ said. Till the day of the resurrection then we rise and we are judged. We either go to heaven or to hell. It is man who wishes to avoid hell and puts 29 opinions to hell.

As David said, seek God now, talk to him, bother him, beg him, fuss with him, thank him, ask for mercy, ask to understand, while you can. When you die you sleep. Kit said some of that. Means the same thing David said.

I need no debate, I fear some debates as they tend to push away the youngsters, the ones who are coming to Christ, confusion becomes forward and a real consideration.

KISS......keep it simple...............

I am going to cry.......for sure......why does everyone want to make it so complicated, why live in fear, doubt and confusion, God does not wish this, his message is so simple, if you simply listen to him.
That is the key, listen to God, if you listen to man, just grin and say, OK if you say so.........

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

I am going to cry!!!!! If God came to earth today and gave a speech he would cry also.

Gods word is Gods word, it is all so very simple. We are born in sin and God gave his Son for us. We can accept Christ or not, it is up to us. When we do we are saved. Very simple.

When we die we sleep, just like Christ said. Till the day of the resurrection then we rise and we are judged. We either go to heaven or to hell. It is man who wishes to avoid hell and puts 29 opinions to hell.

As David said, seek God now, talk to him, bother him, beg him, fuss with him, thank him, ask for mercy, ask to understand, while you can. When you die you sleep. Kit said some of that. Means the same thing David said.

I need no debate, I fear some debates as they tend to push away the youngsters, the ones who are coming to Christ, confusion becomes forward and a real consideration.

KISS......keep it simple...............

I am going to cry.......for sure......why does everyone want to make it so complicated, why live in fear, doubt and confusion, God does not wish this, his message is so simple, if you simply listen to him.
That is the key, listen to God, if you listen to man, just grin and say, OK if you say so.........

Kit

You have provided nothing to this discussion.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Soul Sleep?!!

Oh Come on!! You talk about what the WORD says then you spout doctrine instead of WORD.

2 Corinthians 5:7-9 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28885">7</sup>(For we walk by faith, not by sight
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28886">8</sup>We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28887">9</sup>Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


When you leave your body, you simply go home to be with the LORD.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

What I would like to do with this thread is hash out the details about what happens when we die.

I don't have any formulas but I try to "navigate within the word" for lack of a better term.
Of course weeding out myths and the assumptions based on them means we have to peel back the layers.

The first 5 books of the bible is the first layer.
As far as I can tell there is little reference to an afterlife.There is no mention of burial rites but there is care taken for certain relatives bones.
This verse does lend the idea that the dead are not totally out of the picture.
Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground(this could be a reference the the Lamb).
This verse from Hebrews gives us a clue that Abraham may have had a concept of resurrection.
Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
I think this verse means he received him from an impossible promise so the impossible promise must have a plan to bring him again because Isaac had scripture to yet fullfil.This story is a reference to the Lamb of God.
All the warnings in the first 5 books were pertaining to long life on the earth and cursing and blessings.
Looking from this side of Calvary there are many references to the coming(and already slain)Lamb of God.The rest of the old testament gives a few more clues
Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Job 14:20 Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.
Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The description of the underworld in Isiah and Ezekiel are suspect because they were taunts to Pagan Kings who believed in such things.
Many of the things referenced in those descriptions had to do with elements and stories from the surrounding Pagan religions.

By the time of the new testament most(not all)Jews believed in a future return of Messiah and a resurrection around the same time.
They expected Jesus to overthrow the governments of the world and establish the kingdom of God on earth.
As far as I can tell we are now waiting for a return of Jesus and resurrection of the dead.Among those who have studied the order of the end things there is much disagreement as to how it will take place.
There is also some scripture that suggests it might happen on a personal level to some even before a more general fulfillment.

The information from the new testament is extensive and when you try to nail it down there always seems to be a few verses that don't fit.
If it doesn't fit all of the word I can't take it as truth.

 

[brakelite]

Like Kit suggested, I will try and keep it simple.
To believe that anyone goes to heaven or 'hell' (presuming of course there is such a place; that is another discussion) without either one of the promised resurrections, that of the just and the unjust, is to believe that man is naturally immortal, that death in fact is powerless, and is actually a misnomer. It is to believe in Satan's very first sermon, "thou shalt not surely die".
The truth is my friends, we do die. Not just a part of us, but the whole person. The Bible is clear. God is Spirit, and he only is immortal. Period.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Immortality and eternal life is something according to Paul that we must seek for.
Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Why? Because we are mortal of course.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So the question is, when does this happen????
1 Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is your answer. We sleep, but perhaps not all. Some will remain alive and be translated. Christ will come. Those who are alive are changed, those in their graves are raised. Then, and only then, does man receive his immortality.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Comfort one another with these words. This was the Christian hope in Paul's day. The second coming and the accompanying resurrection was that great singular event that all looked forward to, and gave them hope. Not any immediate rise to heaven, but the resurrection which was to take place at the second coming.

Oh, and it wasn't just a new testament hope either.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

 

[vern777]

Could these people be lying?

I have a cd of a lady that claimes to have seen Heaven and hell over a period by Jesus.She was dressed in white silk and was taken away by an angel(moving not walking) and showed her hell first whereby she explained in detail(horrifying) how people was suffering in this pit of fire also seeing someone she knew that was there already and about the devil's chamber together with his demons, planning how to get people to turn away from God.She was also taken to Heaven again explaining it in the finest detail.How our names were written in the book of life by a golden hand and that each name disappears as it goes along.The rivers as she describes it are crystal clear and you can breathe under water,the grasslands,the golden streets,the soft peasefull light,experiencing real love with our Heavenly Father.She was shown the houses that people were living in(whiteflat roof like in biblical times of Jerusalem).She even saw her daugter that died at an early age.Furthermore she said that there were chambers where all babies were saught after by angels that died either before breath was given to them or at death after being born.She also saw Gods throne whereby she also explaines in detail with his son sitting on his right hand.I could go more into detail about her experience with Heaven and hell but if this is true,that is the place i'd like to be.She could not explain how God showed her this,'cause according to the script it says otherwise.Could this of been the future she saw??.I did some research on others that had near death experiences and some had the same vision and others described it totally different.Heaven decending to earth in a shape of a square etc. etc.This lady also claims to be a very big Christian.She was also given a new Hevenly name by our Father known as Hepzibah and was in her thirties again.Could some of the dead been awaken already?

 

[David777]

Thinking.

If you die in Christ before Jesus returns then you sleep.

We sleep until Christ returns, so far so good.

Then the trumpet sounds and we become immortal.

So when we are asleep we are obviously not conscious.

Would not it be true then that a dead individual would have no
awareness of time. Example 100 years would amount to
a mere second say.

Thus, all who die in Christ are simultaneously with those
who are still alive when Christ returns.

There never was really a delay at all.

In conclusion when you die you are with the Lord immediately.

Brakelite supplied the scriptures.

 

[vern777]

Thanks david777.Will read the scriptures again.Why would people lie about things like that?

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 13:14 For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
Rev 21:12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
Rev 21:13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
Rev 21:16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.

Wow!! A city 1500 miles long, 1500 miles wide, and 1500 miles tall!! To put this in perspective, the tallest Mountain on the Earth (mt. Everest is about 7 miles tall)

Rev 21:17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
Rev 21:18 The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19 The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
Rev 21:20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
Rev 21:25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
Rev 21:26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
Rev 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Mic 4:1 And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it.
Mic 4:2 Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.
Mic 4:4 Each of them will sit under his vine And under his fig tree, With no one to make them afraid, For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
Mic 4:5 Though all the peoples walk Each in the name of his god, As for us, we will walk In the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.
Mic 4:6 "In that day," declares the LORD, "I will assemble the lame And gather the outcasts, Even those whom I have afflicted.
Mic 4:7 "I will make the lame a remnant And the outcasts a strong nation, And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion From now on and forever.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,
Heb 12:19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.
Heb 12:20 For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED."
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Psa 2:6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
Psa 48:1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised, In the city of our God, His holy mountain.
Psa 48:2 Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion in the far north, The city of the great King.
Psa 48:3 God, in her palaces, Has made Himself known as a stronghold.
Psa 48:4 For, lo, the kings assembled themselves, They passed by together.
Psa 48:5 They saw it, then they were amazed; They were terrified, they fled in alarm.
Psa 48:11 Let Mount Zion be glad, Let the daughters of Judah rejoice Because of Your judgments.
Psa 48:12 Walk about Zion and go around her; Count her towers;
Psa 48:13 Consider her ramparts; Go through her palaces, That you may tell it to the next generation.
Psa 76:1 God is known in Judah; His name is great in Israel.
Psa 76:2 His tabernacle is in Salem; His dwelling place also is in Zion.

Isa 2:2 There's a day coming when the mountain of GOD's House Will be The Mountain-- solid, towering over all mountains. All nations will river toward it, people from all over set out for it.
Isa 2:3 They'll say, "Come, let's climb GOD's Mountain, go to the House of the God of Jacob. He'll show us the way he works so we can live the way we're made." Zion's the source of the revelation. GOD's Message comes from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He'll settle things fairly between nations. He'll make things right between many peoples. They'll turn their swords into shovels, their spears into hoes. No more will nation fight nation; they won't play war anymore.

I'm beginning to think there will still be non-believers, even after the rapture, and at least during the millennial reign

Who are the dogs, idolaters and sorcerers who cannot enter into this city?
(Rev 22:15)
If there is no more sickness and pain for believers, who are the "nations" that need to be healed?
(Rev 22:1)
Those who reign with Christ (Rev 20:6).. who will they reign over?

Where will Satan get the millions in his army?
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are up, Satan will be let loose from his cell,
Rev 20:8 and will launch again his old work of deceiving the nations, searching out victims in every nook and cranny of earth, even Gog and Magog! He'll talk them into going to war and will gather a huge army, millions strong.
Rev 20:9 They'll stream across the earth, surround and lay siege to the camp of God's holy people, the Beloved City.

Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Mat 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Obviously non-believers end up in hell and the lake of fire, but what about believers?
Do they all go to Heaven? Are some on the Earth? Are some in the New Jerusalem? Are some in Heaven?
Is Heaven a physical place? A spiritual place? Both?
Is the New Jerusalem a form of Heaven?
Is "being with the Lord" mean we become one meta-physical/spiritual being with him with no unique identity? Or does it simply mean we will be in Heaven or the New Jerusalem with him?

 

[B-A-C]

well ok, that's Heaven, what about Hell?
One of the problems with using computers to study the Bible is that we tend to just search for a word like "hell".
Well, we might not find a lot, so we also have to look for words like hades, sheol, lake of fire, brimstone, place of weeping, gnashing teeth, eternal torment, etc...

Spiritial death.... well obviously this isn't physical death.
But is it death of the soul? Or does the soul go on living after death?

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
Joh 8:52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
I certainly agree you can be spiritually dead. Otherwise why you need the Holy Spirit?

Does only the soul of believers live eternally? Or is the souls of unbelievers eternal as well? Does hell really exist, or do unbelievers "just fade away". Is there eternal punishment as well as eternal life?
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Mat 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Luk 3:9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

If there truly is no punishment for sin... then why do I even need to be saved?
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Maybe there really is a hell, a place where your soul will be tormented eternally?
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
This is the argument of most non-believers I know. Why get saved? Why do I need a savior? Ok, so I sin, so what? After this life I just return to dust, I might as well live it up, have as much fun as possible and not worry about a penalty that will never happen.

 

[Brother Mike]

Where do we go?

We shall not all sleep (die) There is no Soul sleep or place of inactivity. Simply some will be here and changed instantly. Some will have died, and their (Physical) body resurrected. As Paul stated, the body is sown as a seed in the ground, and raised Incorruptible.

Those that know the Lord when they die will be with him, those that did not will not be with him.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Dying without receiving Jesus as your Lord and savior is the one sin that gets the auto judgement and determines your place upon death. No need for soul sleep.

Our Spirit (Who we are) always remains alive and active. It does not sleep.


B-A-C

Obviously non-believers end up in hell and the lake of fire, but what about believers?
Do they all go to Heaven? Are some on the Earth? Are some in the New Jerusalem? Are some in Heaven?
Is Heaven a physical place? A spiritual place? Both?
Is the New Jerusalem a form of Heaven?
Is "being with the Lord" mean we become one meta-physical/spiritual being with him with no unique identity? Or does it simply mean we will be in Heaven or the New Jerusalem with him?

Heaven is a physical place, much like earth but not corrupted. Many times things listed in Heaven are physical object we have here on earth. Gold and pearls for example. Also the city is laid out for us, as if being spiritual there would not be a need to lay out a physical plan or scale.

New Jerusalem comes down at the end.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


We are Spirits, and we have a soul (Mind, will emotions) What we know, and who we are will not change upon changing living locations. The body just houses both spirit and soul and allows us to move around on earth. The body has no thought processes of it's own.

If we die now, we will be with him in Heaven which is a place much like earth, minus all the corruption.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Like Kit suggested, I will try and keep it simple.
To believe that anyone goes to heaven or 'hell' (presuming of course there is such a place; that is another discussion) without either one of the promised resurrections, that of the just and the unjust, is to believe that man is naturally immortal, that death in fact is powerless, and is actually a misnomer. It is to believe in Satan's very first sermon, "thou shalt not surely die".
The truth is my friends, we do die. Not just a part of us, but the whole person. The Bible is clear. God is Spirit, and he only is immortal. Period.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Immortality and eternal life is something according to Paul that we must seek for.
Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Why? Because we are mortal of course.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So the question is, when does this happen????
1 Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is your answer. We sleep, but perhaps not all. Some will remain alive and be translated. Christ will come. Those who are alive are changed, those in their graves are raised. Then, and only then, does man receive his immortality.

1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Comfort one another with these words. This was the Christian hope in Paul's day. The second coming and the accompanying resurrection was that great singular event that all looked forward to, and gave them hope. Not any immediate rise to heaven, but the resurrection which was to take place at the second coming.

Oh, and it wasn't just a new testament hope either.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

You said "There is your answer. We sleep, but perhaps not all. Some will remain alive and be translated. Christ will come. Those who are alive are changed, those in their graves are raised. Then, and only then, does man receive his immortality."

What? You take one verse and use that alone and it comes out of context. Paul was talking about dying. The mortal body will die but not all will die. Some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Go to Strongs and look up the word 'sleep' and put the definition in context to what is being said.


You said "Comfort one another with these words. This was the Christian hope in Paul's day. The second coming and the accompanying resurrection was that great singular event that all looked forward to, and gave them hope. Not any immediate rise to heaven, but the resurrection which was to take place at the second coming."

Sorry my friend, this is not talking about the second coming.. JESUS feet do not touch the ground. Thus HE has not come. Its talking about how all the dead in CHRIST and all those who are alive in HIM are all caught up to meet HIM in the air. Now I'm aware that many of you do not believe in a rapture,because the word in not in the Bible. But then neither is the word 'Gravity' yet you believe in gravity. Whether you want to believe the WORD or not does not change it.

 

[brakelite]

If you die in Christ before Jesus returns then you sleep.

We sleep until Christ returns, so far so good.

Then the trumpet sounds and we become immortal.

So when we are asleep we are obviously not conscious.

Would not it be true then that a dead individual would have no
awareness of time. Example 100 years would amount to
a mere second say.

Thus, all who die in Christ are simultaneously with those
who are still alive when Christ returns.

There never was really a delay at all.

In conclusion when you die you are with the Lord immediately.

Brakelite supplied the scriptures.

It does my heart so much good to see there are others who have accepted this truth, despite the majority held traditions of man.You have summarised the situation perfectly.
God bless.

 

[brakelite]

You said "There is your answer. We sleep, but perhaps not all. Some will remain alive and be translated. Christ will come. Those who are alive are changed, those in their graves are raised. Then, and only then, does man receive his immortality."

What? You take one verse and use that alone and it comes out of context. Paul was talking about dying. The mortal body will die but not all will die. Some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Go to Strongs and look up the word 'sleep' and put the definition in context to what is being said.


You said "Comfort one another with these words. This was the Christian hope in Paul's day. The second coming and the accompanying resurrection was that great singular event that all looked forward to, and gave them hope. Not any immediate rise to heaven, but the resurrection which was to take place at the second coming."

Sorry my friend, this is not talking about the second coming.. JESUS feet do not touch the ground. Thus HE has not come. Its talking about how all the dead in CHRIST and all those who are alive in HIM are all caught up to meet HIM in the air. Now I'm aware that many of you do not believe in a rapture,because the word in not in the Bible. But then neither is the word 'Gravity' yet you believe in gravity. Whether you want to believe the WORD or not does not change it.

I am aware that Jesus does not touch the ground when He comes. But He will be seen by everyone, it will be accompanied by a sound of the trumpet and the voice of the archangel, those who are waiting for Him will be translated, those who are asleep will be awoken and given immortality along with the living. They then are transported to heaven, meanwhile the living wicked are killed by the brightness of His coming.

1000 years later the New Jerusalem descends down out of heaven and settles upon the earth. The wicked dead are raised to face the judgement. There only hope they realise is to take the city by force. Satan leads this vast army but fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them all. This fire cleanses the earth of all uncleanliness, sin, sinners, pollution etc and there is then a new heavens and a new earth created which we will enjoy for all eternity. Sin and sinners are no more. Death is no more.

 

[B-A-C]

There are still evil people on the earth after the 2nd coming, in fact even after the millennial reign.
(Rev 22:15)
There will still be sickness and people that need healing. (Rev 22:2)

Satan's army are wicked people raised from the dead to fight with him on the earth?
The wicked are killed by brightness of his coming? Do you have scriptures for any of this?

 

[gdemoss]

The first 5 books of the bible is the first layer.
As far as I can tell there is little reference to an afterlife.

And..

If it doesn't fit all of the word I can't take it as truth.

Jesus used Moses at the burning bush to declare the afterlife as well as the fact that Gods people do not die. He said God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Just like the reference to Abel's blood crying out to God. I have no doubt that, for Gods people, life continues after the body dies.

Until I can see it clearly, I am with you, there is too much possibility for error.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Oh, and it wasn't just a new testament hope either.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

I was searching Job for that but I had my search terms wrong.
That pretty much sums up the height of my understanding concerning.
The new testament adds much information but trying to make it all fit is puzzling.

I am aware that Jesus does not touch the ground when He comes. But He will be seen by everyone, it will be accompanied by a sound of the trumpet and the voice of the archangel, those who are waiting for Him will be translated, those who are asleep will be awoken and given immortality along with the living. They then are transported to heaven, meanwhile the living wicked are killed by the brightness of His coming.

1000 years later the New Jerusalem descends down out of heaven and settles upon the earth. The wicked dead are raised to face the judgement. There only hope they realise is to take the city by force. Satan leads this vast army but fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them all. This fire cleanses the earth of all uncleanliness, sin, sinners, pollution etc and there is then a new heavens and a new earth created which we will enjoy for all eternity. Sin and sinners are no more. Death is no more.

I agree completely with your first post and I also agree that David's post seems to answer many complications we encounter when trying to peg the whole thing down.
The position you have stated here is kind of my default position,in other words it will work until I can see better.I still get the feeling that the truth is something we have not considered.
Example:

This fire cleanses the earth of all uncleanliness, sin, sinners, pollution etc and there is then a new heavens and a new earth created which we will enjoy for all eternity. Sin and sinners are no more. Death is no more.

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
There still appears to be sinners outside the new city.

 

[gdemoss]

Like Kit suggested, I will try and keep it simple.
To believe that anyone goes to heaven or 'hell' (presuming of course there is such a place; that is another discussion) without either one of the promised resurrections, that of the just and the unjust, is to believe that man is naturally immortal, that death in fact is powerless, and is actually a misnomer. It is to believe in Satan's very first sermon, "thou shalt not surely die".
The truth is my friends, we do die. Not just a part of us, but the whole person. The Bible is clear. God is Spirit, and he only is immortal. Period.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So what do you do with what Jesus said about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being alive event though their body died? God is a God of the living not the dead.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Jesus used Moses at the burning bush to declare the afterlife as well as the fact that Gods people do not die. He said God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Just like the reference to Abel's blood crying out to God. I have no doubt that, for Gods people, life continues after the body dies.

Good work,I did miss that and I do see the Able connection.
There does seem to be an almost hidden gospel in the Torah.

So what do you do with what Jesus said about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still being alive event though their body died? God is a God of the living not the dead.

Good question but since God is out of time they were with God at the foundation with the Lamb.
David777's post kind of explains how it might look from our point of view.

Would not it be true then that a dead individual would have no
awareness of time. Example 100 years would amount to
a mere second say.

Thus, all who die in Christ are simultaneously with those
who are still alive when Christ returns.

There never was really a delay at all.

In conclusion when you die you are with the Lord immediately.

Brakelite supplied the scriptures.

From the word and Gods point of view it is instantaneous from the foundation.