Why Jesus did not come to save everyone

[Donnie Ducati]

One of the most troubling doctrines set forth by some popular cults is that the Son of God is not eternally preexistent, but rather is a “begotten” creature. They proclaim that He was birthed first in the order of creation. Biblical texts such as Psalm 2:7 (“Today I have begotten Thee”) and Colossians 1:15 (“He is…the first-born of all creation”) are used as a wedge in their attempt to shatter the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity. Are they rightly interpreting these passages, however? Are these passages really statements about the essential nature of the Son of God? Are the writers of Scripture asserting that the Son is a very specially exalted, but ultimately created,being? In particular, is Psalm 2:7 setting forth that there is a point during God’s creation of the world at which the Son was “begotten” by God the Father?
The hermeneutical or interpretive mistake that many cults (and even some Christians) make is to assume that whenever the term Son is used in reference to Jesus, it is a reference to His deity. This may be true in some instances, but most of the time it is not; rather, the reference is to His identity as the Messiah. It is clear that Jesus’ messianic identity includes His preexistence as deity, but this is not the focus in most instances in the New Testament. Instead, the New Testament writers are usually seeking to prove that Jesus of Nazareth is the one and only person empowered with God’s Spirit to bring about God’s kingdom on earth; in other words, that Jesus is the Messiah, literally, “the Anointed One.”

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Can one be begotten without a beginning?

John 1:1-3 (King James Version)

John 1

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26046">1</sup>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26047">2</sup>The same was in the beginning with God.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26048">3</sup>All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.




JESUS can JESUS is GOD HE had no beginning.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

My view is much deeper than yours, but mine is not necessarily correct.

But, I ask again ...
Why would a spiritually blind person (i.e. everyone) believe in a gospel which is "foolishness" to him/her?
Paul doesn't say those who are perishing have a change of heart, etc. 1 Cor. 1:18

You are not refuting the many points that I have presented in post #1.
It appears to me that you are just brainwashed into your way of thinking.
So, please try to have an open mind when you read my arguments.

The things of the SPIRIT are foolishness to the natural mind. Your intellect does not understand the things of the SPIRIT. Therefore its your spirit that leads you to accept the SPIRIT of GOD.

Actually your view is intellectual. The things of the SPIRIT can only be discerned by the spirit.

Well son, If I'm brainwashed its by the WORD. I like it that way.

 

[John Zain]

God begat a son in his own image, likeness and form.
Before the world ever was God the Father begat and began to raise his son.

Re: your post #15 ...

Correction:
In the quote, Lewis never said that Father God begat a Son.
I'd say that he tactfully avoided saying this.
He was stating what one of the Creeds says.

I'm unable to fault anything else at this time ... perhaps later.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and views with us.

 

[faithfulservant]

Jesus was "begotten" when He descended to earth. Jesus is God in flesh, come to save His creation from itself and the evil one.

Ephesians 4:4-10
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Jesus was "begotten" when He descended to earth. Jesus is God in flesh, come to save His creation from itself and the evil one.

Ephesians 4:4-10
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”

9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

"Aahhh!" He breathed. "That's good."

 

[John Zain]

The things of the SPIRIT are foolishness to the natural mind.
Your intellect does not understand the things of the SPIRIT.
Therefore its your spirit that leads you to accept the SPIRIT of GOD.
Actually your view is intellectual. The things of the SPIRIT can only be discerned by the spirit.

You are still speaking out of emotion, and you are not addressing my points at all.
I am curious ... has Jesus baptized you with the Holy Spirit?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

You are still speaking out of emotion, and you are not addressing my points at all.
I am curious ... has Jesus baptized you with the Holy Spirit?

Emotion. Hmmmm I trust little enough of that I suppose.

I addressed your main point That being. "Why didn't JESUS come to save everyone?"

Yes I am baptized in the SPIRIT

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Address my Points

Why everyone is not invited to salvation

In case you missed it, Paul spent 14 years in the desert places (see Acts) ...
being trained by the Lord in spiritual Truth before really hooking up with the church at Jerusalem.

OK State the scripture specifically to show this.

He says that man has no excuse for not recognizing God: in nature, in the heavens, and in his conscience.
I.E. Man has no excuse for not seeing there is a Creator God, and for not wanting to follow and please Him.

True


He also says that natural man is at enmity with (an enemy of) God.

True again


He also says that natural man who is perishing spiritually sees the message of the cross (the gospel) as “foolishness”.
Now, just what does this have to do with any kind of free will? Does natural man choose to see it as foolishness?

Yup I addressed this one too

Others have said that it takes a miracle for man to want to follow God vs. following his own fallen nature.

Salvation is a miracle


I know there are plenty of verses which say that man has a choice.
But, the Lord sees man's heart ... and He knows who He desires to save.
All of those “anyone”s who can believe the foolish gospel simply have been elected by God to believe.


Show scripture for this. Come on man! All you're spouting here is intellectual drivel.


All men are not created the same ... witness how Paul quotes Isaiah re: the potter and the clay.
Many verses tell us exactly the attributes of those whom the Lord desires to have with Him in heaven.
God saw Pharaoh's hardened heart and He knew what choices Pharaoh would make, so He merely hardened it further.

No scripture again. Why should I argue anything but Word?


But, those who actually choose God ... have been given the ability, desire, etc. by the Lord.
Also, man appearing to have the freedom to choose warrants evangelists going to the 4 corners of the earth.
And the Lord Himself personally revealed to me the 2 reasons why He insists on the lost being evangelized:
(1) The elect must hear the gospel in order for them to respond to it. (Note: this is God's plan of salvation.)
(2) The non-elect must hear the gospel so they cannot complain at the Judgment that they never heard the gospel.

Re (1): The illusion that man appears to be free to choose the gospel hides the ugly Truth (to us)
that it is God who chooses. Remember, Jesus said that He chose us and not the other way around.


There is nothing here to address. You are spouting junk. Not based on anything but faulty reasoning.


But THE KEY to this whole deal is:
(a) Man has a terribly-flawed human sin nature, which destines him to be separated from God.
(b) God, therefore, owes no man anything, which is another ugly Truth (to us).
(c) God has the authority to do whatever He damn well pleases. Sorry for putting it so bluntly.

All in all, to me, the evidence weighs quite heavily on the side of foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc

Ok I've addressed your first post. Now get SPIRIT knowledge and share that. Otherwise you're wasting your time and ours.

You're not backing anything up with WORD...

 

[David777]

Hello John Zain.

You are definitely caught in the twilight zone regarding
man's corrupt nature and God's election.

Not a pleasant place to inhabit at any time. My heart
goes out to you, I have visited that place myself.

As El Hombre viejo pointed out and rightly so.
You have indicated a bias towards interpretating
God's will as dictating the destiny of the many. The onus is
on you to provide the scriptual justification for this stance.

 

[David777]

yo.

Thank you Donnie for your contribution, well done.

There is a sharp distinction between Jesus as God and Jesus as the messiah.

If one does not explore the scripture sufficiently regarding the incarnation of Jesus
one may be beget confusion, arriving at some heretical idea in conclusion.

Donnie chose John chapter one to illustrate firstly that Jesus is God.
The deity of Christ is beyond question.

It is the transformation of God into the form of a man, where people
become confused. This is where they did begat the confusion.

Lets look at Phillipians 2:6-8,

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death,
even the death of the cross.

So Jesus does become the first born over all creation. From God, He is God but not created in the
sense of being created like we were.

Please read the scriptures with diligence and all will become crystal clear.

 

[gdemoss]

To all my apologies if any thought that I meant to say that Jesus is part of the creation from the beginning as if God created him first then everything else. That isn't my testimony at all.

God birthed Jesus from himself. He begat him is my position. He did this before the first word toward creation was ever said.

My position is further that Jesus left of his former estate as Son of God in the form of God to become a part of the creation. Rightfully earning his place as Lord of Lord and King of Kings. By doing so he left an opening to bring many sons unto God the Father and glorify him in all.

There is nothing in this that contradicts the deity of Jesus as Gods Son but it does mean that Jesus is not God the Father but separate from him just like my son is not me and I am not my son. In the case of Jesus and his Father, they now have two totally different forms. One is God and Father of all the other has become a permanent part of the creation that was made for him to rule and reign over for eternity subject unto God his Father.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[John Zain]

Okay, I've decided to repeat sentences for which I have NO verses.
Therefore, these sentences are either opinion, or revelation from God.

Others have said that it takes a miracle for man to want to follow God vs. following his own fallen nature.

All of those “anyone”s who can believe the foolish gospel simply have been elected by God to believe.

But, those who actually choose God ... have been given this desire, faith, etc. by the Lord. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o>Maybe this is in the word?</o>

<o>2) The non-elect must hear the gospel so they cannot complain at the Judgment that they never heard it.

Re (1): The illusion that man appears to be free to choose the gospel hides the ugly Truth (to us) that it is God who chooses.

As for all of the other sentences, they are in Scripture, and some of them are supported by many verses.
So, congratulations for not seeing them. But, you can google this information.

A couple of major hangups that some people have ... because they don't believe:
(1) man has an inherited sin nature, is separated from God, and is spiritually blind and deaf
... historically, man has always been a spirituial idiot
(2) unsaved man views the gospel as "foolishness" ... because of (1)
These are obviously taught in Scripture.

Do you think unsaved man can just all of a sudden overcome all of this,
become unblinded, and believe the gospel ... all by his liitle ole self?
How would this be accomplished?
Oh, yes, go out and buy a light switch, some wire, and a light bulb.
</o>

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Okay, I've decided to repeat sentences for which I have NO verses.
Therefore, these sentences are either opinion, or revelation from God.

Others have said that it takes a miracle for man to want to follow God vs. following his own fallen nature.

All of those “anyone”s who can believe the foolish gospel simply have been elected by God to believe.

But, those who actually choose God ... have been given this desire, faith, etc. by the Lord. <!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /--><o>Maybe this is in the word?</o>

<o>2) The non-elect must hear the gospel so they cannot complain at the Judgment that they never heard it.

Re (1): The illusion that man appears to be free to choose the gospel hides the ugly Truth (to us) that it is God who chooses.

As for all of the other sentences, they are in Scripture, and some of them are supported by many verses.
So, congratulations for not seeing them. But, you can google this information.

A couple of major hangups that some people have:
(1) man has an inherited sin nature, is separated from God, and is spiritually blind and deaf
... historically, man has always been a spirituial idiot
(2) unsaved man views the gospel as "foolishness" ... because of (1)
These are obviously taught in Scripture.

Do you think unsaved man can just all of a sudden overcome all of this,
become unblinded, and believe the gospel ... all by his liitle ole self?
How would this be accomplished?
Oh, yes, go out and buy a light switch, some wire, and a light bulb.
</o>

So John. If you're going to post something its incumbent on YOU to provide scripture to back it up and its for us to find scripture to check it out.

Again...any revelation of GOD is, as you know, backed up by HIS WORD

Still again....Are these sentences you repeated your sentences?

 

[gdemoss]

Again...any revelation of GOD is, as you know, backed up by HIS WORD

Please provide scripture for this claim.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Please provide scripture for this claim.

I can't find a verse for this but....!

A revelation of God is....

Thayers Lexicon

GOD does not contradict HIMSELF. HE is the same yesterday today and forever.

 

[gdemoss]

I can't find a verse for this but....!

A revelation of God is....

Thayers Lexicon

GOD does not contradict HIMSELF. HE is the same yesterday today and forever.

Agreed, God does not contradict himself. He is the same yesterday, today and forever, but don't confuse that with saying that God does not change what he is doing at any given time.

All revelation from God will not contradict what he has spoken in his word according to what He meant when He spoke it. But his word does support the idea that God reveals things unto whomever he wishes for his own purposes. It is recorded all throughout scripture of him doing that and he never said he was going to stop doing it but only that his word itself, the completed cannon, would be finished. Righteousness = Revelation. If you seek his kingdom and righteousness then he reveals more and more unto you that others have no idea even exists. Things that are not lawful to share with others as they are the hidden manna only given to those who diligently seek him. Paul knew a lot more than he ever shared. My job is simply to encourage others to seek his righteousness and purify themselves as he is pure.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Agreed, God does not contradict himself. He is the same yesterday, today and forever, but don't confuse that with saying that God does not change what he is doing at any given time.

All revelation from God will not contradict what he has spoken in his word according to what He meant when He spoke it. But his word does support the idea that God reveals things unto whomever he wishes for his own purposes. It is recorded all throughout scripture of him doing that and he never said he was going to stop doing it but only that his word itself, the completed cannon, would be finished. Righteousness = Revelation. If you seek his kingdom and righteousness then he reveals more and more unto you that others have no idea even exists. Things that are not lawful to share with others as they are the hidden manna only given to those who diligently seek him. Paul knew a lot more than he ever shared. My job is simply to encourage others to seek his righteousness and purify themselves as he is pure.

In Christ,

Gary

My point is, Gary, that GOD will reveal to us what is in HIS WORD layer by layer. He never contradicts what HE has said in the past. HE only builds on it and opens it up to us. That's revelation. And being that HE never changes, what HE is doing hasn't changed either. Its always been about HIM and HIS family.

 

[MorningStar]

Awesome topic...thoroughly enjoyed this discussion!

 

[Brother Mike]

More Sure Word.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Peter saw Miracles, Heard God's voice on high, yet said "We have a more Sure Word of Prophecy."

What testimony you have, what you "Think" God revealed to you. Must be backed by the Word of God. Many get in trouble because of this.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word is what separates "Was that God speaking to me?" from our own thoughts and desires. The Word judges every thought and action. If it's not backed by the Word, it's not God.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

The Holy Ghost will only witness to us those things God has said before. If you think you heard the Holy Spirit on something but not in line with the Eternal Word, then it's not the Holy Spirit that spoke to you.

Jesus is Lord.