Why Jesus did not come to save everyone

[John Zain]

Why everyone is not invited to salvation<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

In case you missed it, Paul spent 14 years in the desert places (see Acts) ...
being trained by the Lord in spiritual Truth before really hooking up with the church at Jerusalem.

He says that man has no excuse for not recognizing God: in nature, in the heavens, and in his conscience.
I.E. Man has no excuse for not seeing there is a Creator God, and for not wanting to follow and please Him.

He also says that natural man is at enmity with (an enemy of) God.

He also says that natural man who is perishing spiritually sees the message of the cross (the gospel) as “foolishness”.
Now, just what does this have to do with any kind of free will? Does natural man choose to see it as foolishness?

Others have said that it takes a miracle for man to want to follow God vs. following his own fallen nature.

I know there are plenty of verses which say that man has a choice.
But, the Lord sees man's heart ... and He knows who He desires to save.
All of those “anyone”s who can believe the foolish gospel simply have been elected by God to believe.

All men are not created the same ... witness how Paul quotes Isaiah re: the potter and the clay.
Many verses tell us exactly the attributes of those whom the Lord desires to have with Him in heaven.
God saw Pharaoh's hardened heart and He knew what choices Pharaoh would make, so He merely hardened it further.

But, those who actually choose God ... have been given the ability, desire, etc. by the Lord.
Also, man appearing to have the freedom to choose warrants evangelists going to the 4 corners of the earth.
And the Lord Himself personally revealed to me the 2 reasons why He insists on the lost being evangelized:
(1) The elect must hear the gospel in order for them to respond to it. (Note: this is God's plan of salvation.)
(2) The non-elect must hear the gospel so they cannot complain at the Judgment that they never heard the gospel.

Re (1): The illusion that man appears to be free to choose the gospel hides the ugly Truth (to us)
that it is God who chooses. Remember, Jesus said that He chose us and not the other way around.

But THE KEY to this whole deal is:
(a) Man has a terribly-flawed human sin nature, which destines him to be separated from God.
(b) God, therefore, owes no man anything, which is another ugly Truth (to us).
(c) God has the authority to do whatever He damn well pleases. Sorry for putting it so bluntly.

All in all, to me, the evidence weighs quite heavily on the side of foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc.

 

[Kit Carson]

Why everyone is not invited to salvation<!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /-->

In case you missed it, Paul spent 14 years in the desert places (see Acts) ...
being trained by the Lord in spiritual Truth before really hooking up with the church at Jerusalem.

He says that man has no excuse for not recognizing God: in nature, in the heavens, and in his conscience.
I.E. Man has no excuse for not seeing there is a Creator God, and for not wanting to follow and please Him.

He also says that natural man is at enmity with (an enemy of) God.

Yes I agree with this part above as one can simply look at us, the creation and the design and know God is the creator. This is put into all of us. Natural man is in conflict with God due to his own free will, as we do not wish to bow our spirit to God. We want to do it our way, and we have to make the choice by free will to accept. God offers to all the same, and we can accept or not. It is up to us.

He also says that natural man who is perishing spiritually sees the message of the cross (the gospel) as “foolishness”.
Now, just what does this have to do with any kind of free will? Does natural man choose to see it as foolishness?
Due to mans own pride and will and clinging to some sin that brings self gratification and pleasure , yes just like Kit, I used to view the Gospel as foolish nonsense. You see, I did not want to bow my will. I was smarter than God.

Others have said that it takes a miracle for man to want to follow God vs. following his own fallen nature.

All it takes is to bow your will to God and say, Ok you win. It is my my own free will I chose to do this. I still have the freedom of choice to do as God would have me do or to do as I would want to do. Over time I find I wish to do as God wishes me to do. That I hate sin and try my best to stay away from it.

I know there are plenty of verses which say that man has a choice.
But, the Lord sees man's heart ... and He knows who He desires to save.
All of those “anyone”s who can believe the foolish gospel simply have been elected by God to believe.
Again God desires we all be saved. But he is not going to pound sand in any ears to accomplish this. He sets before us the truth, and we have the freedom to accept it or not. It is by our own hand how we set the future and the way of acceptance.

All men are not created the same ... witness how Paul quotes Isaiah re: the potter and the clay.
Many verses tell us exactly the attributes of those whom the Lord desires to have with Him in heaven.
God saw Pharaoh's hardened heart and He knew what choices Pharaoh would make, so He merely hardened it further.

God did not harden Pharaoh's heart. This was a manner of speaking and explaining by those who wrote the bible. It is the way they understood it. Did you know that during the time God caused all the first born to die, that there was a decree by a ruler, that the midwives were to kill all Jewish born males. That this ruler feared the population and was set on reducing it. Pharaoh followed false Gods and he challenged God. His own will led to his own destruction and many of his ways, led to punishment and hardship for his own people. Overall God had been very patient and as Pharaoh would not bow his will, it is explained that his heart was hardened. Had he accepted and asked forgiveness, a much different story would be told.

But, those who actually choose God ... have been given the ability, desire, etc. by the Lord.
Also, man appearing to have the freedom to choose warrants evangelists going to the 4 corners of the earth.
And the Lord Himself personally revealed to me the 2 reasons why He insists on the lost being evangelized:
(1) The elect must hear the gospel in order for them to respond to it. (Note: this is God's plan of salvation.)
(2) The non-elect must hear the gospel so they cannot complain at the Judgment that they never heard the gospel.

Re (1): The illusion that man appears to be free to choose the gospel hides the ugly Truth (to us)
that it is God who chooses. Remember, Jesus said that He chose us and not the other way around.

Again God is the same with all. It is us who have the freedom of choice. God is not going to force anyone to follow him. This is his purpose of creation and his creation is still in the works, God is the creator and he is busy creating his creation, of which we in the present are a part of.

But THE KEY to this whole deal is:
(a) Man has a terribly-flawed human sin nature, which destines him to be separated from God.
(b) God, therefore, owes no man anything, which is another ugly Truth (to us).
(c) God has the authority to do whatever He damn well pleases. Sorry for putting it so bluntly.

All in all, to me, the evidence weighs quite heavily on the side of foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc.

Yes God is the creator, the ultimate scientist, and holder of all the physical laws of the universe. He knows the results of his creation and the results of the actions of men who do have free will. He knows that some will accept and that some will not. God only wants in his final creation those who by choice prefer good and kindness and truth and right. He allows us this choice.

Yes God is God and no one can change that. It is his right and will to do as he will. This is the hardest thing for men to accept and what keeps many from him. Mans own pride and will wishes to challenge God. So until by free will you do accept , you have made the wrong choice.

Now.........

I read posts like these and many others on here and I see a great many different interpretations of Gods word. Many of them remind me of Jesus and his way with the so called learned wise religious leaders of that time. They were so smart they were stupid. And so Jesus would tell them so.

The Gospel is so simple. Come to me and accept me. Desire to seek and find me and I will grant you salvation and put into you my Holy spirit to guide you. It is this simple. It is not complicated . So very simple.

Yet man makes it his way, he puts his own interpretation to it. So the other day I asked God about ten times during the day , hey you why do men , if you have ten men in a room you will have ten different interpretations. Why??

I took a nap and all of a sudden God answered me and told me that it is the reluctance of men to push away some sin, the reluctance of men to ignore self gratification, and their reluctance to accept his will that cause the many interpretations to be born by men. That there is really only one interpretation and only one way to salvation. And that is so simple, you simply accept God and ask for salvation. You by free will desire to do so.

So simple.

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

Why everyone is not invited to salvation

So you mean to say that 'many' and not 'all' are invited but 'few' are actually chosen? It is a hard truth to understand and realize about the character of God.

So many people miss the boat. This is about God and not us. God the Father had a Son. The creation was made for his Son. His Son was sent and obediently came and became part of the creation that he would ultimately rule over. He started out a helpless baby, in the form of a man, but still the person of Jesus the Son of God. He was led by God the Father through his life, both by his written word and then his Holy Spirit to the end that he would be perfected and exalted over all creation. God desires to bring man sons unto perfection but man must respond to him appropriately. Gods job is to be right. Mans job is to believe him and thus obey what he has said and be conformed to the image of his son Jesus, suffering the shame of being righteous in an unrighteous world. The result is justification by faith. A faith the works.

Awesome post. Thanks for sharing your mind.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[faithfulservant]

This is a gospel of elitism. Were you specially chosen? Is it your calling to declare God's wrath upon the peasants and heathen? God is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11).

I see Pharisees who lack the fundamental eyes to see and ears to hear His truths in this kind of gospel.

Be careful, friends, you may find yourself at the return of Jesus like this man who new of God, but did not know God (emphasis mine):

Matthew 25:14-30
14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

This servant didn't even understand the fundamental nature of God: Merciful, loving, just.

In fact, this servant never moved on from the beginning of wisdom, which is the fear of the LORD (Prov. 1:7). He stayed right where he was at unwilling to get to know God's heart.

If this servant was open to know God's heart, he would have grown in maturity and began to understand the depth of love and mercy God has.

Yes, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the LORD, but that's not His intended end for us. His intended end is that we get to know Him so intimately we can then see the very depth of love He has for us:

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Additionally, we are called to humility, servitude, not arrogant elitism (emphasis mine):

Luke 18:10-14
10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[a] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Matthew 23:11-13
11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

 

[John Zain]

God the Father had a Son. The creation was made for his Son.
His Son was sent and obediently came and became part of the creation
that he would ultimately rule over.

Gary, w/o going into a lot of detail, I would like to say:

God never mated with anyone to have a Son.
And God never created another God to be His Son.
Gabriel never said that Jesus WAS the Son of God.
Gabriel only said to CALL Him the Son of God.
I realize this is incredible, but ... sorry, this is how I see it.
I am called John, but I'm not a John, I'm a human male.
Jesus has many names/titles in Scripture.

More heresy? ...
I thought all spirit beings are sexless.
So, what's all this about God being male?
I believe it's because God desires that we can relate to Him.
What's easier for humans ... viewing God as an It, or as a Him?
Would God ask us to have a personal relationship with an It?

I certainly hope that you don't lose any sleep over this.
.

 

[gdemoss]

Once again the accusing tongue has arrived.

The purpose of Pastors and Teachers is to bring up the children of the Lord unto the fullness of the maturity that is in Christ Jesus as found in Ephesians 4. In order to do so, one must have attained unto that level. You cannot give away something that you don't have. Jesus didn't come to Lord over his servants but to bring them up to his level. His level was complete faith in God the Father, being obedient in all things without sin marring his life. Jesus sought to bring his church to the same level by washing her with the water of the word and presenting it to himself without spot and blameless. I seek to be washed by the water of the word and sanctified in its truth. I want to be presented unto him spotless and blameless as he wishes me to be so I follow after his ways. I want to encourage as many as I can to do the same, and not to speak evil of the way of truth as has been said will happen in the last days while God prepares the lie for all of those who would not seek after righteousness and love the truth.

God is merciful and will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy upon, and harden whom he will harden. God is love but love is not God as God is also Just and Righteous. He is the justifier of them that believe in Jesus because they understand that he is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh and they follow his ways. Not condemning people and imputing there sin unto them but warning them of the judgment to come where all will be judged by their deeds. Those who obey the truth of the Gospel, eternal life. Those who have pleasure in unrighteousness, eternal death. Judge nothing before the time.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Gary, w/o going into a lot of detail, I would like to say:

First I would like to say that I truly appreciate you bring up these thoughts for me to consider. It is kind of you not to sit back and just watch if you think I may be in error. Thank you.

I offer you what God has taught me. I hope you can receive it.

God never mated with anyone to have a Son.

Amen. God has shown the possibility in his creation for asexual reproduction.

And God never created another God to be His Son.

Jesus was begotten, not made. Amen.

Gabriel never said that Jesus WAS the Son of God.

True. He said Son of the Most High. Others later accused him of being Son of the Most High God as he made his entry into Jerusalem on the colt. Jesus was told to rebuke them but instead he replied that the stones would cry out if they held their peace. They were speaking the truth. Jesus is the Son of the Most High God. He is the Son of God.

Gabriel only said to CALL Him the Son of God.

He did not say 'to call him' but that 'he will be called'. It was God the Father who actually called him the 'Son of God' when he said 'This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased'.

I realize this is incredible, but ... sorry, this is how I see it.

It is OK, we all believe what God has revealed unto each of us. We must understand that God is the potter who mold both vessels. One unto honor and the other unto dishonor. We can but beg him to make us a vessel unto honor and lead us into all truth.

I am called John, but I'm not a John, I'm a human male.

Your name was given to you for a reason. I don't know that reason. You are in fact a human who is named John.

Jesus has many names/titles in Scripture.

Amen. And he lives up to each one of those names given him.

More heresy? ...

Are you eluding to the idea that you were previously pointing out heresy in my beliefs to me?

I thought all spirit beings are sexless.

I never knew the truth about this but I lean to the idea that they are all male.

So, what's all this about God being male?

God created man in his image. God refers to himself as a male so I believe it.

I believe it's because God desires that we can relate to Him.

I can understand why one might come to this conclusion but it isn't taught in scripture so I don't believe it.

What's easier for humans ... viewing God as an It, or as a Him?

It is easiest to view God as he presents himself to us. God cannot lie. He presents himself as a male. Should he lie to us to try and help our feeble minds understand him? Or did he create us with enough understanding to see him as he is in truth...a male.

Would God ask us to have a personal relationship with an It?

Only if he were such.

Thank you for exercising my mind on this issue and helping me to remain sharp. Iron sharpens Iron and you have blessed me. May God bless you openly for your work.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[John Zain]

Jesus was begotten, not made. Amen.

He did not say 'to call him' but that 'he will be called'. It was God the Father who actually
called him the 'Son of God' when he said 'This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased'.

Are you eluding to the idea that you were previously pointing out heresy in my beliefs to me?

I never knew the truth about this (sexless) but I lean to the idea that they are all male.

It is easiest to view God as he presents himself to us. God cannot lie. He presents himself as a male.
Should he lie to us to try and help our feeble minds understand him?
Or did he create us with enough understanding to see him as he is in truth...a male.

God didn't begat a Son ... He begat another version of Himself?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the creeds says that Christ is the Son of God "begotten, not created"; <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
and it adds "begotten by his Father before all worlds."
Will you please get it quite clear that this has nothing to do with the fact that
when Christ was born on earth as a man, that man was the son of a virgin?
We are not now thinking about the Virgin Birth.
We're thinking about something that happened before Nature was created at all,
before time began.
"Before all worlds" Christ is begotten, not created.
What does it mean?
We don't use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English,
but everyone still knows what they mean.
To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make.
And the difference is just this.
When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself.
A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers,
and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds.
But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself.
A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set. . . .
Now that's the first thing to get clear.
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.
What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man.
C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality: The Christian Idea of God (New York, 1945), pp. 4-5.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was being open to whether these ideas are indeed heresy.
Because, believe me, I've never heard them anywhere else.
Except for "sexless". I forget where I first heard this, which is not necessarily the truth.
Your rebuttals to my ideas are very impressive. Thanks, Gary.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Whosoever

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
John 3:16 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26137">16</sup>For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.




So....Which part of Whosoever leaves ANYBODY out?

Whosoever will

 

[John Zain]

So....Which part of Whosoever leaves ANYBODY out?
Whosoever will

The idea here is that all who accept the gospel are God's elect.
So, only His elect are the "whosoever"s.
And the point is that God is not lying when He claims this.
Whosoever (is the elect of God) will believe the "foolish" gospel.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

The idea here is that all who accept the gospel are God's elect.
So, only His elect are the "whosoever"s.

No John Whosoever will is the whosoevers Yes GOD knew who would accept HIM and who would not but the door is still open to the ones who will not. Until it's too late. Until the doors of the ark must close

 

[jari]

He saved us we cant save our self.

to think we achieve saved status by our effort is fallacy.

 

[John Zain]

No John Whosoever will is the whosoevers Yes GOD knew who would accept HIM and who would not but the door is still open to the ones who will not. Until it's too late. Until the doors of the ark must close

My view is much deeper than yours, but mine is not necessarily correct.

But, I ask again ...
Why would a spiritually blind person (i.e. everyone) believe in a gospel which is "foolishness" to him/her?
Paul doesn't say those who are perishing have a change of heart, etc. 1 Cor. 1:18

You are not refuting the many points that I have presented in post #1.
It appears to me that you are just brainwashed into your way of thinking.
So, please try to have an open mind when you read my arguments.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

God didn't begat a Son ... He begat another version of Himself?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the creeds says that Christ is the Son of God "begotten, not created"; <!--?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /-->
and it adds "begotten by his Father before all worlds."
Will you please get it quite clear that this has nothing to do with the fact that
when Christ was born on earth as a man, that man was the son of a virgin?
We are not now thinking about the Virgin Birth.
We're thinking about something that happened before Nature was created at all,
before time began.
"Before all worlds" Christ is begotten, not created.
What does it mean?
We don't use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English,
but everyone still knows what they mean.
To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make.
And the difference is just this.
When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself.
A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers,
and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds.
But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself.
A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set. . . .
Now that's the first thing to get clear.
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.
What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man.
C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality: The Christian Idea of God (New York, 1945), pp. 4-5.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was being open to whether these ideas are indeed heresy.
Because, believe me, I've never heard them anywhere else.
Except for "sexless". I forget where I first heard this, which is not necessarily the truth.
Your rebuttals to my ideas are very impressive. Thanks, Gary.

Where are your scriptures for all of this? Am I the only one required to provide scripture to back up what I say?

You talk as though 'Christ' is Jesus last name.

 

[gdemoss]

God didn't begat a Son ... He begat another version of Himself?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the creeds says that Christ is the Son of God "begotten, not created"; <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
and it adds "begotten by his Father before all worlds."
Will you please get it quite clear that this has nothing to do with the fact that
when Christ was born on earth as a man, that man was the son of a virgin?
We are not now thinking about the Virgin Birth.
We're thinking about something that happened before Nature was created at all,
before time began.
"Before all worlds" Christ is begotten, not created.
What does it mean?
We don't use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English,
but everyone still knows what they mean.
To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make.
And the difference is just this.
When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself.
A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers,
and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds.
But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself.
A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set. . . .
Now that's the first thing to get clear.
What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man.
What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man.
C. S. Lewis, Beyond Personality: The Christian Idea of God (New York, 1945), pp. 4-5.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was being open to whether these ideas are indeed heresy.
Because, believe me, I've never heard them anywhere else.
Except for "sexless". I forget where I first heard this, which is not necessarily the truth.
Your rebuttals to my ideas are very impressive. Thanks, Gary.

God has taught me that what C. S. Lewis said here was true as he taught me the same before ever reading this. God begat a son in his own image, likeness and form. We however are a created being in his image and likeness but lack his form. Jesus was born just like you and I, without knowledge, wisdom or understanding. Before the world ever was God the Father begat and began to raise his son. The intended end of Jesus was to be ruler of the creation that God purposed in himself before ever begetting a son. His son being in the form of God could have entered creation in any form, but in God the Fathers perfect plan, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. This suffering was part of Jesus' upbringing by the Father. He learned obedience by the things which he suffered as the scriptures state.

The importance of all of this is that you and I have been given the power to become the Sons of God by receiving Jesus as King and following him. We are to suffer for others as he suffered for us, bringing others to God by the grace given unto us. We have the fellowship of his sufferings by resisting sin even unto blood. Being cursed we bless. Being reviled we revile not again but do good to those who hate us. We are told to prove our own selves to see whether Christ has been formed in us except we fail the test and be reprobate concerning faith.

I openly admit that I didn't learn any of this by the mouth of man. It is all which has been revealed unto me and I invite you to test if for error. God is either molding me into a vessel of honor or dishonor. He is either making me a Son or one to whom he has reserved judgment and wrath to be shown in. Blessed be God the Father who is righteous in all that he does as I deserve death and dismemberment. I beseech him that he would make me a vessel unto honor even though the price tag means suffering persecution for living a godly life in Christ Jesus, calling sinners unto repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[El Hombre viejo]

God has taught me that what C. S. Lewis said here was true as he taught me the same before ever reading this. God begat a son in his own image, likeness and form. We however are a created being in his image and likeness but lack his form. Jesus was born just like you and I, without knowledge, wisdom or understanding. Before the world ever was God the Father begat and began to raise his son. The intended end of Jesus was to be ruler of the creation that God purposed in himself before ever begetting a son. His son being in the form of God could have entered creation in any form, but in God the Fathers perfect plan, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. This suffering was part of Jesus' upbringing by the Father. He learned obedience by the things which he suffered as the scriptures state.

The importance of all of this is that you and I have been given the power to become the Sons of God by receiving Jesus as King and following him. We are to suffer for others as he suffered for us, bringing others to God by the grace given unto us. We have the fellowship of his sufferings by resisting sin even unto blood. Being cursed we bless. Being reviled we revile not again but do good to those who hate us. We are told to prove our own selves to see whether Christ has been formed in us except we fail the test and be reprobate concerning faith.

I openly admit that I didn't learn any of this by the mouth of man. It is all which has been revealed unto me and I invite you to test if for error. God is either molding me into a vessel of honor or dishonor. He is either making me a Son or one to whom he has reserved judgment and wrath to be shown in. Blessed be God the Father who is righteous in all that he does as I deserve death and dismemberment. I beseech him that he would make me a vessel unto honor even though the price tag means suffering persecution for living a godly life in Christ Jesus, calling sinners unto repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Gary Do I understand you correctly? JESUS had a beginning?

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Another debatable subject that leads to devision and more confusion for the young in Christ.

C.S. Lewis isn't exactly a completly reliable source for building an argument.



Lewis claimed to have limited his apologetic writings to mere Christianity; however, there were times when he addressed teachings that are not held by all Christians. He believed, for instance, that Scripture is in some sense the word of God, but he questioned its inerrancy. He also believed in the existence of purgatory, though he did not consider it to be a place of punishment. Lewis, rather, believed saved people were purified of their sins in purgatory before entering heaven itself. Another controversial belief he held was that a person could belong to Jesus Christ and be saved without necessarily knowing Him specifically. This is not exactly universalism, but it goes beyond the clear teaching of Scripture.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Another debatable subject that leads to devision and more confusion for the young in Christ.

According to the WORD JESUS came to save everybody. Any who says otherwise don't know JESUS

 

[gdemoss]

Gary Do I understand you correctly? JESUS had a beginning?

Can one be begotten without a beginning?

 

[Donnie Ducati]

According to the WORD JESUS came to save everybody. Any who says otherwise don't know JESUS

Amen. :wink:

Can one be begotten without a beginning?

Your not understanding the word 'begotten'.


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>1</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>2</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>The same was in the beginning with God.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>3</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>4</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>In him was life; and the life was the light of men.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>5</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>