Proper place of the Law

[james g]

.RomvsbyvsNewell




OK GARY no commentarys

 

[brakelite]

I would like to see you take each and every point that you have concluded as fact above and show scriptural support for them.

• Show where it says that gentiles should not eat pig because it is not food.
• Show where God stated that his purpose for declaring something unclean was to say that 'that is not food'.

• Show where God stated that the 'dietary laws' were for all men for all time.
• Show where God stated that his purpose for creating these laws was for the purpose of peak physical, mental, and spiritual health.

Hi Gary. Because you mentioned 'unclean food' first, I think the onus would be on you to provide scripture that tells us that those things which God declared unclean, are in fact food. He mentions unclean beasts, and creepiy crawlies being unclean and of course shellfish and various birds as being unclean, but where does it say that those things are food? God made it very clear to our first forbears what was to be food for them.

Gen.1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Levit. 11:1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

Now, it is possible you are thinking that these rules were given only to Israel. That the clean/unclean distinction was ceremonial and was abolished at the cross. I would like to point out to you that that distinction was made a long time before Sinai, because Noah knew of it.
Genesis 7:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Gen. 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

(Obviously this isn't literally every moving thing....Noah didn't start eating cockroaches, rats, or his children. It means those moving things which God had previously shown Noah were clean and fit for food.) These were repeated to Israel in Levit.11 because after 400 years in captivity to a foreign power that likely did eat just about anything they needed to be reminded of what was good for them and what wasn't.
The fact that the clean/unclean distinction was given to Noah is clear evidence that those distinctions were for mankind, not just Israel.
As to your question "did God give these laws for health's sake" (para.) I will offer this:
Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

(In reference to the eternal nature of God's law.)
This is merely an assumption. Everything built upon an assumption is only as factual as the assumption itself. If the assumption is not rooted in scriptural fact it must be rejected. Where do we find this as truth in the bible. Show me and I will be glad to follow it.

Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Ps. 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

The scripture doesn't actually say that sin is the transgression against the law. KJV translators took liberty to translate it that way. The translation is 'sin is iniquity' or lawlessness. Paul tells us that sin was in the world in the days of Noah, but that where there is no law sin is not imputed. Sin exists outside of and independent of law. There is no biblical proof to support the claim that God gave the angels laws to abide by. It is an assumption based on a mistranslated verse. Even using the verse translated as the KJV does, one would have to conclude that the verse says 'Sin is the transgression of the law' and not 'Sin can only exist if the law has been transgressed'. There is a big difference. Sin as shown above is independent of the law. Only made exceedingly sinful by it.

Can you give me an example of sin that isn't a transgression against the Ten Commandments?

Correct. If one lies they are still sinning. You add in a different proposal when you say 'if one is declared righteous'. This is completely a different matter all together. We are simply discussing righteous versus unrighteous people. Not the imputed righteousness that one receives by believing God.

I spoke of this with another brother at work today. If we removed all of the speed limits from all roads, who would then drive recklessly? The righteous or the unrighteous? Would not the righteous still drive responsibly so that they would not be harming others, even though the law was removed? The law is not made for the righteous.

Ezek.3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.....20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
How can a righteous man be warned against committing iniquity or sin without reference to the law that defines it?
The law must always remain for the righteous as a reference or standard to live up to.
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I have heard many claim that the law has no relevance to them because they "live according to the Spirit". They let the 'Spirit' speak or convict them when they are in the wrong. That's true as far as it goes, but they forget that the Spirit will never speak anything that is not in accordance to that which is written. Even Jesus, when tempted, quoted the law. Three times. He said "it is written", and quoted Deut. 8:3; 6:16; 10:20. If Jesus needed and used the law in His defence, who are we to discard it and claim it isn't for us? Paul by saying what he did did not mean that the law has no relevance for the righteous, but merely that the law has no claims upon the righteous person because he is obeying it.

This is you putting yourself under the OT law. I am under the law of Christ. Not the OT law. To stray is to stray from the person of Christ as he is divine in nature being selfless.


If we sin, we are not abiding in Christ. Becoming more like him does not mean to sin less and less as some would believe but instead to grow in his maturity and wisdom. One becomes like him in sinlessness when they pick up their cross and deny themselves. Over time one begins to learn how to respond in situations as he has responded such as dealing with the wicked Pharisees.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Again, how does the Christian know he has sinned without reference to the law?

We have always had this power. Just as Cain did when God told him that he was to rule over sin. God did not tell him to do something that he could not do. That would be unrighteous.

I think what you should make clearer is that we have always had this power available. It comes to us by faith. Just as Jesus could do nothing in Himself but acted in faith in all things, so without Christ we are nothing.

A righteous man is not made righteous by law whether it be the spirit or the letter.

Of course not. Wouldn't dare suggest otherwise, or I would have every contributor and moderator and his dog on me like a ton of depleted uranium.

A righteous man no longer needs law to govern him. He is righteous. Do you believe Jesus needed the law to govern him lest he make a mistake and sin?

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If your goal is keeping the law. If your goal is being righteous then you don't need any law. You need Christ who is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh. That which we have seen with our eyes and held with our hands as John says of the word of life.

You speak of goals, I speak of who or what God has made of me. Who I am now. I recognise how blessed I am to have a Saviour such as He who loved me so much to die in my place. In response I love, serve, and obey Him in all things. I don't look for reasons to avoid obedience to His laws, in fact the opposite. Was David a righteous man? Does being a man after God's own heart equate with being righteous? Read Psalm 119 and see what his attitude was toward the law.

Never said that. Sorry if that is what impression I gave you. I will try to be clearer. I say that I do not work to keep the law of the Sabbath either spiritually or by the letter. It is something that is fulfilled in me everyday if and only if I am living in the spirit of Christ selflessly which there is no law against...not even the Sabbath.



If I do nothing solely for myself but base all of my actions on pleasing God and serving others then how could I possibly break the Sabbath any day of the week?

The thing about the Sabbath is that God didn't sanctify and make holy the rest, nor did He sanctify and make holy the work we do on the other six days. God sanctified a day. One specific 24 hour period of time between sunset on the sixth day and sunset on the seventh. The Sabbath simply does not apply to any other day of the week. For us to apply it elsewhere is placing our own opinion above the authority of God. Nowhere in the scripture does it even hint that God has un-sanctified the day.

If you want to be saved you must believe God and have it accounted to you for righteousness. That is the only requirement.

Yet elsewhere you say, and I agree with you, that obedience is also essential. Obedience that comes not from within ourselves, but from power granted to us by grace also through faith. This is righteousness imparted.Imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness are equally essential.

Your bro in Christ

 

[jiggyfly]

I kind of browsed through the thread and enjoyed much of the discussion.
I didn't see this scripture though and wanted to add it into the discussion and am curious to see how everyone sees it from their paradigm.

25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,


“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,

and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
27 And this is my covenant with them,

that I will take away their sins.”


28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.31 Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
33 Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!


34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?

Who knows enough to give him advice?
35 And who has given him so much

that he needs to pay it back?


36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Romans 11:25-36 (NLT)

 

[HisFollower]

When Christ told Paul "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" in (Acts 9:5) He was telling Paul and us that it is hard to place the law in its proper place, namely, under grace.

 

[brakelite]

I kind of browsed through the thread and enjoyed much of the discussion.
I didn't see this scripture though and wanted to add it into the discussion and am curious to see how everyone sees it from their paradigm.

25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,


“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,

and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
27 And this is my covenant with them,

that I will take away their sins.”


28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.29 For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead.31 Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
33 Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!


34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?

Who knows enough to give him advice?
35 And who has given him so much

that he needs to pay it back?


36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Romans 11:25-36 (NLT)

Hi Jiggy. From my perspective I cannot see the nation of Israel ever again becoming God's vessel for the blessing of mankind. They were that for only short periods of time like in the days of Solomon and Hezekiah, but for the most part were selfish introspective and exclusive. Until after the stoning of Steven. Jesus told His disciples to go first to the lost sheep of Israel, which they did. With Jesus ministry to Israel of 3 and a half years, and the disciples ministry after the ascension of a further 3 and a half years, this totalled 7 years and completed the final 70th 'week' of Daniel 9:24. Israel's time was up as a nation. Their final opportunity was the testimony of Steven in the ears of the ruling authority of Israel. They however literally blocked their ears and gnashing their teeth at him killed him. They thus said, "we want nothing more to do with your Jesus". They spoke for the nation. They did not however speak for individuals.
And that is where your passage comes in. God has not completely forsaken the Jewish people. But there only hope for salvation is precisely the exact same way as the rest of us. By grace through faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ. And I am convinced that in the days to come as we draw nearer to the second coming of Jesus we will see a great influx of born again Jews into the church of God in direct fulfillment of the above scripture.

And so all Israel will be saved; both Gentiles who have been grafted into the tree and the original branches that had been cut off.

 

[agua]

It is clear throughout scripture that God has never totally forsaken Israel. Once they were offered the gospel it then went out to the gentiles to "provoke them to jealousy" . They are God's beloved nation regardless.


Rom 11:1-3 NKJV I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?


Rom 11:28-29 NKJV Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (29) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


Believing gentiles are grafted into the "natural" olive tree which is Israel and this tree is rooted by the patriarchs and Jesus.

 

[jiggyfly]

Thanks for responding BL and Aqua, but how does this portion of scripture in effect relate to the topic?

 

[gdemoss]

Wow, this is gonna take awhile

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
I would like to see you take each and every point that you have concluded as fact above and show scriptural support for them.
Show where it says that gentiles should not eat pig because it is not food.
Show where God stated that his purpose for declaring something unclean was to say that 'that is not food'.
Show where God stated that the 'dietary laws' were for all men for all time.
Show where God stated that his purpose for creating these laws was for the purpose of peak physical, mental, and spiritual health.

Hi Gary. Because you mentioned 'unclean food' first, I think the onus would be on you to provide scripture that tells us that those things which God declared unclean, are in fact food.

Just as he told Noah, Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; I have to address your comments about this verse below.

He mentions unclean beasts, and creepiy crawlies being unclean and of course shellfish and various birds as being unclean, but where does it say that those things are food? God made it very clear to our first forbears what was to be food for them.

Our first forbears were Adam and Eve. They were vegetarians.

Gen.1:29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Levit. 11:1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.

Yes, vegetarians at first. Then Israel given dietary requirements. Of course Noah and everyone else in between the two.

Now, it is possible you are thinking that these rules were given only to Israel.

As there is no substantial evidence to suggest otherwise.

That the clean/unclean distinction was ceremonial and was abolished at the cross.

Not sure whether it applies to Jews still or not.


I would like to point out to you that that distinction was made a long time before Sinai, because Noah knew of it.
Genesis 7:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Gen. 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Distinction between clean and unclean established at a minimum in Noah's day, agreed. In order to say that Noah understood 'clean' and 'unclean' to mean food you have to draw from the Mosaic Law as that is the only place God mentions it that way. It also says in the law that siblings cannot get married and have sex with each other. Yet everyone was doing it including Abraham who God said kept his laws, statutes and judgments. If Gods laws are always the same for all people then he is a liar when it comes to his testimony of Abraham.

(Obviously this isn't literally every moving thing....Noah didn't start eating cockroaches, rats, or his children. It means those moving things which God had previously shown Noah were clean and fit for food.)

God was addressing the whole human race at the time. Of course children wouldn't be included, silly. As far as cockroaches and rats, I can't tell from the scripture.

These were repeated to Israel in Levit.11 because after 400 years in captivity to a foreign power that likely did eat just about anything they needed to be reminded of what was good for them and what wasn't.

Repeated? your willing to go on record saying you know for a certainty that God spoke all of his law to those that came before Israel and now they just bared repeating? Your mindset is that God has always dealt with people as a nation which isn't true.

The fact that the clean/unclean distinction was given to Noah is clear evidence that those distinctions were for mankind, not just Israel.

The distinction of clean/unclean was given to Noah. But how do you know it wasn't just revealed as for the purpose of sacrifice made to God? That seems to be how Noah understood it as he didn't take any unclean beast and sacrifice it. At the time he sacrificed it he couldn't eat any of it. So God proceeds to tell him next something that he didn't already know and that was that he could now eat the animals. Of course there is no dietary guideline given to Noah. Or are you saying that somehow God told Noah in the past that one day I am going to let you eat some of these critters but only if they are clean? Your having to color in a lot of areas that God didn't specify which is dangerous.



As to your question "did God give these laws for health's sake" (para.) I will offer this:
Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

I can't see how you seem to see it. What's this got to do with food?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss



(In reference to the eternal nature of God's law.)
This is merely an assumption. Everything built upon an assumption is only as factual as the assumption itself. If the assumption is not rooted in scriptural fact it must be rejected. Where do we find this as truth in the bible. Show me and I will be glad to follow it.

Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Ps. 119:152 ¶ Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

Taken in context 111 and 119 are about the first covenant. And supports the idea that I have that Jews are still obligated by the law. For ever and ever. Again, according to Acts 15, I was not brought under the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss

The scripture doesn't actually say that sin is the transgression against the law. KJV translators took liberty to translate it that way. The translation is 'sin is iniquity' or lawlessness. Paul tells us that sin was in the world in the days of Noah, but that where there is no law sin is not imputed. Sin exists outside of and independent of law. There is no biblical proof to support the claim that God gave the angels laws to abide by. It is an assumption based on a mistranslated verse. Even using the verse translated as the KJV does, one would have to conclude that the verse says 'Sin is the transgression of the law' and not 'Sin can only exist if the law has been transgressed'. There is a big difference. Sin as shown above is independent of the law. Only made exceedingly sinful by it.

Can you give me an example of sin that isn't a transgression against the Ten Commandments?

What do you think Jesus was trying to get a cross to people when he was magnifying the law by speaking about looking unto a woman to lust after her? The 10 commandments don't cover everything. And again as Paul saith in Acts that there are things in which you cannot be justified by the law. In other words, the 10 commandments doesn't cover everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
Correct. If one lies they are still sinning. You add in a different proposal when you say 'if one is declared righteous'. This is completely a different matter all together. We are simply discussing righteous versus unrighteous people. Not the imputed righteousness that one receives by believing God.

I spoke of this with another brother at work today. If we removed all of the speed limits from all roads, who would then drive recklessly? The righteous or the unrighteous? Would not the righteous still drive responsibly so that they would not be harming others, even though the law was removed? The law is not made for the righteous.

Ezek.3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.....20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

How can a righteous man be warned against committing iniquity or sin without reference to the law that defines it?

With your question one would have to say it must apply to the righteous or unrighteous. Did God not warn Cain against sin when there was in fact no known law? But again the 'righteous' man that is spoke of above is according to the law. As can be seen by the reference to the stumbling block.

The law must always remain for the righteous as a reference or standard to live up to.
Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And so shall the law ever stand. Jesus Christ the end of the law for righteousness. Jesus is the word by which we speak. Jesus is the living, walking breathing law whose glory is so glorious it overshadows what paltry righteousness can be had by following the law. One can follow the law or Christ for righteousness but one must choose.

I have heard many claim that the law has no relevance to them because they "live according to the Spirit". They let the 'Spirit' speak or convict them when they are in the wrong. That's true as far as it goes,

A lot of room for a lot of differing opinions as to what that means. I won't bother.

but they forget that the Spirit will never speak anything that is not in accordance to that which is written.

While this is true. The Spirit will rightly divide the word of God.

Even Jesus, when tempted, quoted the law. Three times. He said "it is written", and quoted Deut. 8:3; 6:16; 10:20.

Wasn't it great! I love those.

If Jesus needed and used the law in His defence, who are we to discard it and claim it isn't for us?

No one says that the OT is not for us as it is for our learning. Things in it about Israel are for an example to us as Paul said. What you speak of though is legalistically following the law of the OT and all of its ordinances etc. Are thou a Jew? Or a Gentile? Remember Acts 15. God has a reason for not extending the law unto the Gentiles. Christ is that reason. He is showing the brightness of his glory inside those who truly walk as Christ. Those who are growing in wisdom and maturity in Christ not the practice of the OT law.

Paul by saying what he did did not mean that the law has no relevance for the righteous, but merely that the law has no claims upon the righteous person because he is obeying it.

The law is good and holy and must be used lawfully. If thou knowest what meanth I will have mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent....Christ called them innocent. Did the law? Was the Sabbath made for man or man the Sabbath?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss

This is you putting yourself under the OT law. I am under the law of Christ. Not the OT law. To stray is to stray from the person of Christ as he is divine in nature being selfless.


If we sin, we are not abiding in Christ. Becoming more like him does not mean to sin less and less as some would believe but instead to grow in his maturity and wisdom. One becomes like him in sinlessness when they pick up their cross and deny themselves. Over time one begins to learn how to respond in situations as he has responded such as dealing with the wicked Pharisees.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Jo 1:9 I have never seen anyone use it in context. It is not a universal truth as pertaining to sin.

Again, how does the Christian know he has sinned without reference to the law?

By looking at Christ. For they cannot understand that they have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust without having knowledge of him...not the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss


We have always had this power. Just as Cain did when God told him that he was to rule over sin. God did not tell him to do something that he could not do. That would be unrighteous.

I think what you should make clearer is that we have always had this power available. It comes to us by faith. Just as Jesus could do nothing in Himself but acted in faith in all things, so without Christ we are nothing.

Yeah, I could have been clearer. You said what I meant better than I could say it. Thanks for straightening that out wouldn't want to give the wrong impression. You have to do everything in faith. Just as I abide not in the Mosaic law for righteousness by faith. Just as I believe that God has said that all creatures are good and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving. He said that to a poor gentile believer like me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss

A righteous man is not made righteous by law whether it be the spirit or the letter.

Of course not. Wouldn't dare suggest otherwise, or I would have every contributor and moderator and his dog on me like a ton of depleted uranium.

I laughed at that...thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
A righteous man no longer needs law to govern him. He is righteous. Do you believe Jesus needed the law to govern him lest he make a mistake and sin?

It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

No truer words have ever been spoken. The word of God nourishes our souls. Properly understood and applied it will make us wise unto salvation. Added to or taken away from it becomes a deadly poison that kills the soul. To say that God has said that 'gdemoss' is under the law of clean/unclean beasts for dietary consumption is adding to the word and taking away from the word of God. Poison. I cannot eat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss

If your goal is keeping the law. If your goal is being righteous then you don't need any law. You need Christ who is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh. That which we have seen with our eyes and held with our hands as John says of the word of life.

You speak of goals, I speak of who or what God has made of me. Who I am now. I recognise how blessed I am to have a Saviour such as He who loved me so much to die in my place. In response I love, serve, and obey Him in all things. I don't look for reasons to avoid obedience to His laws, in fact the opposite. Was David a righteous man? Does being a man after God's own heart equate with being righteous? Read Psalm 119 and see what his attitude was toward the law.

And you had nothing to do with it. You just responded to God uncontrollably. You had no choice but to love, serve and obey him in all things because of what he did for you. Really? Wasn't like that for me. I had to first see the light, who is Jesus, then I had to decide whether that light was that which is right, then I had to make a decision to turn from my darkness unto that light and decide also to purposely set myself before the word of God so that I could become sanctified by it. In short, I had to confess that God was right and act accordingly all ow which was done through faith that it was even God speaking to me in the first place. God is not irresistible nor is his grace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss

Never said that. Sorry if that is what impression I gave you. I will try to be clearer. I say that I do not work to keep the law of the Sabbath either spiritually or by the letter. It is something that is fulfilled in me everyday if and only if I am living in the spirit of Christ selflessly which there is no law against...not even the Sabbath.



If I do nothing solely for myself but base all of my actions on pleasing God and serving others then how could I possibly break the Sabbath any day of the week?

The thing about the Sabbath is that God didn't sanctify and make holy the rest, nor did He sanctify and make holy the work we do on the other six days.

I beg to differ. He has sanctified and made holy the work that I do everyday. I work in all things unto the lord for his purposes not mine. This includes my job that I used to do for my own selfish purposes of life, liberty and the pursuit of the American dream. Which dream died with my old man.

God sanctified a day. One specific 24 hour period of time between sunset on the sixth day and sunset on the seventh. The Sabbath simply does not apply to any other day of the week. For us to apply it elsewhere is placing our own opinion above the authority of God. Nowhere in the scripture does it even hint that God has un-sanctified the day.

A careful read of Hebrews 3 & 4 should reveal unto you Gods intentions of the foreshadowing of the Sabbath upon mankind. The Sabbath is not something you enter into once a week, it is something you enter period. You rest from your works and do the works of him that sent you. Not my opinion but Gods. We must understand what it means that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Is it lawful to do good or evil upon the Sabbath? My Father works and so do I, I must do the works that my Father has sent me to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdemoss
If you want to be saved you must believe God and have it accounted to you for righteousness. That is the only requirement.

Yet elsewhere you say, and I agree with you, that obedience is also essential. Obedience that comes not from within ourselves, but from power granted to us by grace also through faith. This is righteousness imparted. Imputed righteousness and imparted righteousness are equally essential.

As far as I know the bible never mentions the word imparted only imputed. And yes, believing God is observed in obedience. That is why I didn't bother to mention it. Just like saying believe and be baptized and you will be saved but believe not and you will be condemned. The obedience of baptism will never be realized if you don't first believe.

Your bro in Christ


Your bro in Christ

That took quite awhile but you are well worth it brother,

Gary

 

[agua]

Thanks for responding BL and Aqua, but how does this portion of scripture in effect relate to the topic?

Romans 11 is about gentiles receiving the privilege of salvation which was once only offered corporately to Israel.( The patriarchs/Jewish believers are the "first fruits" of the saved.) Both become one in Christ but retain their identity in the same manner as a man/woman etc do.


Gal 3:28-29 NKJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


The promise here is the blessing of salvation and God's favour.

We know that the blood of Jesus removed the enmity between Jew and Gentile which existed because of "the law of commandments contained in ordinances".


Eph 2:14-16 NKJV For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, (15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, (16) and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.


These "commandments contained in ordinances" were the Jewish rituals/sacrifices/festivals which identified them as God's chosen people and pointed to the coming Messiah. These ordinances are no longer necessary.

God's moral laws are not included in these ordinances, as we know, because Jesus' sacrifice didn't abolish laws pertaining to murder/lying/theft/idolatry etc . The only law/command that brings confusion /contention today is the 4th.

 

[jiggyfly]

Romans 11 is about gentiles receiving the privilege of salvation which was once only offered corporately to Israel.( The patriarchs/Jewish believers are the "first fruits" of the saved.) Both become one in Christ but retain their identity in the same manner as a man/woman etc do.


Gal 3:28-29 NKJV There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


The promise here is the blessing of salvation and God's favour.

We know that the blood of Jesus removed the enmity between Jew and Gentile which existed because of "the law of commandments contained in ordinances".


Eph 2:14-16 NKJV For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, (15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, (16) and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.


These "commandments contained in ordinances" were the Jewish rituals/sacrifices/festivals which identified them as God's chosen people and pointed to the coming Messiah. These ordinances are no longer necessary.

God's moral laws are not included in these ordinances, as we know, because Jesus' sacrifice didn't abolish laws pertaining to murder/lying/theft/idolatry etc . The only law/command that brings confusion /contention today is the 4th.

Did you notice that there's no mention of the law (including the ten commandments) in that scripture, just the disobedience that the law brings, and then God's wonderful mercy.

So how then does the law(including the ten commandments) effect of help the new covenant believer?

 

[agua]

Did you notice that there's no mention of the law (including the ten commandments) in that scripture, just the disobedience that the law brings, and then God's wonderful mercy.

Are you speaking about Romans 11? I don't see any reference at all to disobedience because of the law in the chapter. What I do see is how God allowed all men, Jew and Gentile, to come to repentance because all had been disobedient.

Can you post the passages that show the disobedience the law brings ?

So how then does the law(including the ten commandments) effect of help the new covenant believer?

God's moral laws are what a new covenant believer, and an old covenant saint , desire/d to live by. Breaking God's moral laws is breaking the laws given by Jesus on which all of them hang.


Mat 22:37-40 NKJV Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (40) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

 

[jiggyfly]

Are you speaking about Romans 11? I don't see any reference at all to disobedience because of the law in the chapter. What I do see is how God allowed all men, Jew and Gentile, to come to repentance because all had been disobedient.

Can you post the passages that show the disobedience the law brings ?

God's moral laws are what a new covenant believer, and an old covenant saint , desire/d to live by. Breaking God's moral laws is breaking the laws given by Jesus on which all of them hang.


Mat 22:37-40 NKJV Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (40) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

I'll stick to living by the HolySpirit instead of living by the law.:wink:

 

[james g]

The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.

"The law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for kidnapers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine..." 1 Tim. 1:8-10.]

The law says, Don't sin, so he struggles to keep from sinning. The law says, Do righteousness, so he struggles to be righteous. But the law does not give the Christian power over sin--it gives sin power over the Christian!

Even when there is failure, the abiding believer learns from it and gains thereby. He knows that his Father is working all things together for his good, to conform him to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:28, 29). His reliance is neither upon the law nor the flesh, but upon the Holy Spirit, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4).

Instead of struggle to keep from sinning, and self-effort to progress spiritually, he rests inChrist--the ground of growth. The Word of God is his daily sustenance; he feeds on it in reliance upon its Author, the Spirit of Truth.

Prayer is his cherished fellowship with the Father; he depends upon the Spirit for this most vital aspect of his life. "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmity; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26, 27).

Having learned to hate the old life, he willingly judges himself. He confesses his sins fully and without fear because he loves and trusts his Advocate and Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ.

In his growth he is more and more free from the influence of indwelling sin and the old life, the law, and the surrounding world. He is at rest concerning himself, but burdened for others. His service is from the heart and in the Spirit--sharing of life. He does not have to resort tohuman methods and fleshly means to win others and help them grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus. He allows the Holy Spirit control and work through him by means of life--the life of the Lord Jesus.

Underlying whatever service the Spirit may lead him into, his most important and effective ministry is simply to be--for to him to live is Christ. He becomes an "example [pattern] of the believers [and the lost], in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity" (I Tim. 4:12). His attitude is that of Paul, "Stand fast, therefore in the liberty with which Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage [law]" (Gal. 5:1).

 

[jari]

Jari, I understand why you see what you see but consider this: The above verses are about righteousness, not about being under the law or not for the Jews.

You quoted:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Your emphasis being on 'end of the law' and 'everyone'. Try it this way:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

With the emphasis moved to the prepositional phrase that modifies what 'the end of the law' means, we see that the end had limitations that were only speaking of reason for keeping the law and not the discontinuance of the law itself.

I hope I have been clear,

Gary

Yes The law still exists and Jews want to keep the law even today. But Jews that become christian do not have to keep it. thats what i was saying. And they also shouldnt try to keep it as it doesnt give them any benefit but contrary, thinking it does only takes futher away from God.

 

[gdemoss]

But Jews that become christian do not have to keep it.

I still don't see evidence to support this.

 

[agua]

I'll stick to living by the HolySpirit instead of living by the law.

Amen .. and we know the Holy Spirit guides us away from sin.

 

[RJ]

Amen .. and we know the Holy Spirit guides us away from sin.

Exactly. I think this is the mark of a true Christian as apposed to an non-believer. A non-believer does not see their short comings as a sin against God. This is a work in you that reveals that your faith is not dead!

 

[jiggyfly]

Amen .. and we know the Holy Spirit guides us away from sin.

Yes indeed HolySpirit leads us away from many dangers, He convicts the world of sin and leads us to Christ where by His death at the cross we who believe are now holy and righteous before God. But if we go back to allowing the law (including the ten commandments) to be our guide then we are disobeying God by disbelieving Jesus' work at the cross has justified us.

 

[agua]

But if we go back to allowing the law (including the ten commandments) to be our guide then we are disobeying God by disbelieving Jesus' work at the cross has justified us.

It seems weird to me that any Christian would find a commandment from God a burden. We are obedient because we love Him not because we are "under the law" as many suggest.

When Jesus justified believers He in no way justified sin. I am curious to see a list of what a person who has no "laws" considers sin. Would that list include idolatry, blaspheme, adultery, murder, theft etc.

Some Christians mistakenly believe their sin is no longer wrong.

 

[jari]

Hi Gary

I still don't see evidence to support this.

It's in Rom 10:4 . but your interpreation is different...

It says here no one is justified by law:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And if you want to keep law you have to keep it all:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.



Rom 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why was the law? it was till the present time:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

And Jesus redeemed jews from the law:

Gal 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Following the law is error:

Gal 5:3-4 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

God bless