Proper place of the Law

[JonahofAkron]

Your accusing Paul of having not followed the Law as he said he did under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

Paul followed the Spirit to follow Messiah in following the Father's Commands.

 

[gdemoss]

Why the sarcasim?

No sarcasm here, just an honest question. This isn't the first time I have needed to ask for clarity from you. It very may well be that it is on my part that I have a hard time understanding you, bear with me. No sarcasm.

Jesus was perfect and had no sin and he was the only person to follow the law to the "T". Of course, he performed the law perfectly.
Unfortunately, the rest of mankind could not do the same. That is why he had to die on the cross.

Nothing but truth spoken by you here.

Surely, you misspoke when you stated your shock!
Jesus was the perfect sacricfice, the one who knew no sin but became sin on our behalf! He was absolutely righteous under the law!

You speak of me as if I was in shock. I did not use any exclamation points. Once again, I asked for clarity. One other time I asked for clarity and you provided perfect clarity and I appreciated it.

Jesus was righteous apart from the law. He did not need the Law to be declared righteous. In fact he took the glory that the law once had just by being here. He was more glorious than the law.

I believe you know this and agree (or I am completely off base) just somewhere we fail to connect on these truths.

 

[gdemoss]

Paul followed the Spirit to follow Messiah in following the Father's Commands.

Before he was converted?

 

[RJ]

No sarcasm here, just an honest question. This isn't the first time I have needed to ask for clarity from you. It very may well be that it is on my part that I have a hard time understanding you, bear with me. No sarcasm.



Nothing but truth spoken by you here.



You speak of me as if I was in shock. I did not use any exclamation points. Once again, I asked for clarity. One other time I asked for clarity and you provided perfect clarity and I appreciated it.

Jesus was righteous apart from the law. He did not need the Law to be declared righteous. In fact he took the glory that the law once had just by being here. He was more glorious than the law.

I believe you know this and agree (or I am completely off base) just somewhere we fail to connect on these truths.

No I don't think that you are off base on your thinking.

Jesus was perfect and therefore righteous through the observing the law or apart from the law....perfect is perfect. I am not saying the he was righteous because of the law only but, he certainly could have because he was the only one that ever upheld all of the laws and did it perfectly.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Before he was converted?

And after. Where did he say that he changed his position on that? All I see is his continuing to follow after his 'conversion'.

 

[james g]

Blameless (273) (amemptos [words study]from a = negates following word + mémphomai = find fault) means irreproachable, faultless, without defect or blemish and thus describes not being able to find fault in someone or some thing (use in He 8:7 regarding the Old Covenant). The idea is that the person is such that he or she is without the possibility of rightful charge being brought against them. Paul's desire for the Philippian saints is that there be no legitimate ground for accusation when the Lord returns to judge (1Th 3:13- Paul's similar desire and prayer for the saints at Thessalonica).

This adjective was often used to characterize someone who is flawless in the sight of other people. The related adverb amémptōs (differs by mark over the "o") is the very word archeologists have found on Christian tombs from ancient Thessalonica. When people wanted to identify a deceased friend or loved one as a Christian, they inscribed "amémptōs" or "blameless" on his or her grave, such behavioral blamelessness (not just the imputed and forensic) is the Lord’s desire for His church.

Barclay adds that amemptos...

expresses what the Christian is to the world. His life is of such purity that none can find anything in it with which to find fault. It is often said in courts of law that the proceedings must not only be just but must be seen to be just. The Christian must not only be pure, but the purity of his life must be seen by all. (Barclay, W: The Daily Study Bible Series, Rev. ed. Philadelphia: The Westminster Press)

That Paul was blameless (in regard to the Law) is indeed a remarkable claim when one considers the minutiae of Pharisaic legislation. But more importantly Paul did not keep the Law perfectly in God's eyes (Ro 7:9, 10), but only in the eyes of men.

"How could a sincere man like Saul of Tarsus be so wrong?" The answer is that he was using the wrong measuring stick! His standard of measure was human and not divine.

Like the rich young ruler (Mk 10:17-22) and the Pharisee in Christ’s parable (Lk 18:10, 11, 12, 13, 14), Saul of Tarsus was looking at the outside and not the inside. He was comparing himself with standards set by men, not by God. As far as obeying outwardly the demands of the Law, Paul was a success, but he did not grasp the gravity of the inward sins he was committing.


In the Sermon on the Mount , Jesus makes it clear that there are sinful attitudes and appetites as well as sinful actions (Mt 5:20-48).

When he looked at himself or looked at others, Saul of Tarsus considered himself to be righteous. But one day he saw himself compared with the risen Lord Jesus Christ! It was then that this heart was genuinely "circumcised" and he forsook "works righteousness" accepting by faith the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[gdemoss]

And after. Where did he say that he changed his position on that? All I see is his continuing to follow after his 'conversion'.

I'd like to see scripture to support the claim that Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to keep the law blameless as his claim in Phil 3 states.

No where did Paul state that he doesn't keep the Law anymore and that is one of my points in this thread. We agree on that point. I am only insisting that his blamelessness according to the righteousness that is in the Law, that he had prior to his conversion to following Christ, was done in his own strength. Such is why he had been relying on it to be his righteousness before God as other Pharisees. Of course, after he knew Christ, he understood that the righteousness that is in the law pales in compares to the declared righteousness of God in Christ. Wherefore he stated that he wanted to be found in him and not having his own righteousness which is of the Law (even though I believe he still followed the law as he had the covenant confirmed through circumcision).

I hope that is clearly stated. If not please point out where I could use more clarity.

In Him,

Gary

 

[JonahofAkron]

I'd like to see scripture to support the claim that Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to keep the law blameless as his claim in Phil 3 states.

No where did Paul state that he doesn't keep the Law anymore and that is one of my points in this thread. We agree on that point. I am only insisting that his blamelessness according to the righteousness that is in the Law, that he had prior to his conversion to following Christ, was done in his own strength. Such is why he had been relying on it to be his righteousness before God as other Pharisees. Of course, after he knew Christ, he understood that the righteousness that is in the law pales in compares to the declared righteousness of God in Christ. Wherefore he stated that he wanted to be found in him and not having his own righteousness which is of the Law (even though I believe he still followed the law as he had the covenant confirmed through circumcision).

I hope that is clearly stated. If not please point out where I could use more clarity.

In Him,

Gary

If I correctly understand you, you're saying that righteousness is in Messiah alone and that Paul lived out Torah, but was found righteous on Messiah. I agree with this.

 

[gdemoss]

When he looked at himself or looked at others, Saul of Tarsus considered himself to be righteous. But one day he saw himself compared with the risen Lord Jesus Christ! It was then that this heart was genuinely "circumcised" and he forsook "works righteousness" accepting by faith the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I understand and agree with everything up to this point. I never understood Paul to be saying that he never transgressed the Law at any time. I understood him to be speaking of his manner of living in the years leading up to meeting Christ. Just as if you take 'all' literally all the time:

For all have sinned and fallen short the Glory of God

False: Jesus never sinned.

And all Jerusalem were going out to him and being baptized by him.

False: The scribes and Pharisees did not get baptized by him.

For there is none righteous, no not one.

False: And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly
in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord (John's parents)

This last example is how I look at what Paul said about his being blameless as pertaining to the righteousness which is in the law.

There is a way some things just have to be understood. The above that I put in Bold is an example of labeling 'works righteousness' which is deceiving because if one believes that Jesus is the righteousness manifest in the flesh then he too has a 'works righteousness' when he believes and follows the Lord through faith with the end result being the righteousness of God imputed over his whole life and not just the period of time that he walked with him in his righteousness.

 

[gdemoss]

If I correctly understand you, you're saying that righteousness is in Messiah alone and that Paul lived out Torah, but was found righteous on Messiah. I agree with this.

Agreed. That is what I said.

 

[Stickz]

Kit Carson: Circumcision never was a requirement for a heathen Gentile like myself anyway. This was only for those of the Jewish Faith.

Exodus 12:43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:

Exodus 12:44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

Exodus 12:45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

Exodus 12:46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

Exodus 12:47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Kit Carson: But Paul himself circumcised Titus I think it was, and this was OK and nothing wrong with that either way, as it did help to reach out and to mingle with and reach those still holding to the Law and not willing to accept the new. It was a way of having common ground.

Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: ( KJV )

Galatians 2:3 but not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised-- ( Young's Literal Translation )

Galatians 2:3 But, not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised;— ( Rotherham's Emphasized )

I Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

I Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

[Stickz]

gdemoss

The book of Romans does say:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

But it also says:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And you have these verses:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

[gdemoss]

gdemoss

The book of Romans does say:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

These speak to the fact of the separation acknowledge between the two.

But it also says:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

These speak directly to the Jew alone within their direct context. But we do still use it today when we speak of Christians in general. He is not a Christian who is one outwardly professing of the mouth but he is a Christian who is circumcised of the heart, in the spirit, who has put on Christ.

And you have these verses:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

These speak to the fact that regardless if you are a Jew or a Gentile you become 'one' with each other when each individually puts on Christ. We are then of one mind as we have the mind of Christ. Females and males really are still females and males who have to do their God given roles in Christ here on Earth. Would a Jew who has been under the Law be any different?

All very good verses pertaining to the subject at hand. I appreciate the time and effort to put together information on the subject.

Seeking truth,

Gary

 

[brakelite]

Really well worded brakelite. And you have a valid point about laws governing everything. But I think you stop short of seeing the whole picture of the need for Law. You know the scriptures well. You know that the Law was not made for the righteous but the unrighteous. Therefore, there will only be a need for law as long as there are unrighteous people who need to be governed. In some instances of Gods law he made things unlawful to do that in and of themselves are not wrong at all, but only wrong because God said so. For instance clean and unclean food.

Actually, there is no such thing as unclean food. If something was declared unclean, then the Lord was saying, "that is not food". By declaring something clean, He was saying, "this is food." It wasn't just for Jews these dietary laws, they were for all men for all time. There are perfectly good reasons for God giving us His 'recipe' for health. He loves us and wants us to be at the peak of physical, mental, and spiritual health. If we spend most of our dining time partaking of substances unfit for human consumption, regardless of whether or not they taste good, we will suffer the consequences.

Before there was ever a man created; before sin ever entered into the heart of Lucifer; when righteousness and love ruled the heavens, there must have been law. Despite the fact that there were only righteous beings living in obligation to it. We know this because we are told that Lucifer (Satan) became a liar and a murderer and was such right from the beginning. He became a sinner because there was a law already in place which he disobeyed. 'Sin is the transgression against the law'.
There is confusion with the idea that the "law is only for the unrighteous". To my mind that does not mean that if one is declared righteous by the Father due to His faith in Jesus, that means the law itself has been invalidated. Certainly we are no longer under its condemnation, but only if we are living the life of the Lifegiver, as you say. If we stray and sin, the law comes straight back into effect and the Holy Spirit points to the law and convicts us. We confess, are cleansed from all the unrighteousness we repent of, and we get up and go forward.Our focus is always on Christ. We abide in Him, trusting fully in Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith. And day by day we become more like Him. We study His life, we see where we fall short, we pray, confess our frailty, admit to our utter need of Him for without Him we can do nothing, He gives us more power, and we grow.

Below is Barnes commentary on the expression "the law is not for the righteous" found in 1 Tim.1:9
The law is not made for a righteous man. — There has been great variety in the interpretation of this passage. Some suppose that the law here refers to the ceremonial laws of Moses, (Clarke, Rosenmuller, Abbot others to the denunciatory part of the law, (Doddridge and Bloomfield and others that it means that the chief purpose of the law was to restrain the wicked. It seems clear, however, that the apostle does not refer merely to the ceremonial law, for he specifies that which condemns the unholy and profane; the murderers of fathers and mothers; liars and perjured persons. It was not the ceremonial law which condemned these things, but the moral law. It cannot be supposed, moreover, that the apostle meant, to say that the law was not binding on a righteous man, or that he was under no obligation to obey it — for he everywhere teaches that the moral law is obligatory on all mankind. To suppose also that a righteous man is released from the obligation to obey the law, that is, to do right, is an absurdity. Nor does he seem to mean, as Macknight supposes, that the law was not given for the purpose of justifying a righteous man — for this was originally one of its designs. Had man always obeyed it, he would have been justified by it. The meaning seems to be, that the purpose of the law was not to fetter and perplex those who were righteous, and who aimed to do their duty and to please God, It was not intended to produce a spirit of servitude and bondage. As the Jews interpreted it, it did this, and this interpretation appears to have been adopted by the teachers at Ephesus, to whom Paul refers. The whole tendency of their teaching was to bring the soul into a state of bondage, and to make religion a condition of servitude. Paul teaches, on the other hand, that religion was a condition of freedom, and that the main purpose of the law was not to fetter the minds of the righteous by numberless observances and minute regulations, but that it was to restrain the wicked from sin. This is the case with all law. No good man feels himself fettered and manacled by wholesome laws, nor does he feel that the purpose of law is to reduce him to a state of servitude. It is only the wicked who have this feeling — and in this sense the law is made for a man who intends to do wrong.

Usually when someone says that we must keep Gods law, they are referring to the 10 commandments, which are Holy just and good for the purpose that God purposed to use them. Gentile believers are under a greater Law than the 10 commandments, the Law of Christ. The law that states that Christ is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh and only those who walk as he walked are truly righteous. Those who reply that Christ kept the law, so those that follow him would keep the law in order to be walking as he walked, miss the whole point of what God proved in Christ. There is no law that can govern like the light that was brought into the world. Jesus made it clear. I can sit around all day and picture women in all kinds of wicked ways yet still keep the 7 commandment by the letter. I cannot be righteous by doing so. If I, however, put on the Lord Jesus Christ and walk in him by denying my self through serving God and others as he was an example to do, then I fulfill the righteousness that is in the law without ever even having to know the law. If I truly live a life of self denial then I need not worry about keeping the Sabbath on a particular day of the week because my actions would be fulfilling the righteousness of the Sabbath everyday always.

Hopefully, you no longer sit around all day dreaming of women in wicked ways. (I speak with tongue very firmly placed in cheek) Nevertheless, you don't do such a thing, nor I, because it is as you say, Christ in us restrains us from such wickedness. We now have the power in us to keep the spirit of the law as it was intended from the very beginning. The same of course with the 6th commandment as Jesus pointed out. That said however, in keeping the spirit of the law, is not the letter of the law kept also? In fact, could it not be said that it is impossible to keep the spirit of the law and not keep the letter? So you say you keep the spirit of the law regarding the 4th commandment through the rest you have in Christ. If the rest you speak of however was truly the spirit so to speak of the 4th commandment then would it not be fair to say that the letter of the 4th commandment must be observed also? So what's missing?

My question and point of this thread is directed at the Jewish believers. They have born the seal of the covenant that cannot be annulled. My observations are that it seems that they are obligated to keep the law but not for the purpose of being righteous as righteousness comes by following Christ. God hath declared his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past.

What do you think? Is there something in scripture that you can see that refutes this that I am blind to? May our loving Lord guide us into all truth.

Your brother in Christ,

Gary

Are Jewish folk saved in any manner different from the rest of us? Is God racist? Is He a respecter of persons? God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different one for non-Jews. Everyone is saved the same way under the same program—by grace through faith. Paul uses the analogy of an olive tree to explain that all Gentiles who are saved are grafted into the stock of Israel. “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root [supports] thee” (Romans 11:17, 18).
The Christian religion is based on a Jewish manual called the Bible. (In this light, it is difficult to understand how any professed Christian could be anti-Semitic.) Christianity is not a new religion, but rather the completion of the Jewish faith. The new covenant is made “with the house of Israel”! God never makes a salvation covenant with Gentiles. In fact, nowhere in Scripture do you find any saving covenant made with anyone but Israelites! So if you want to be saved, you must be born again as a spiritual Jew.So with this in mind, we can now better understand what Paul meant when he said, “And so all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). Some take this verse to mean that God will ultimately save all literal Jews. If this were true, it would contradict every principle of God’s dealings with humans throughout history and Scripture. God is not a racist. In Jesus’ eyes, “There is neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28).
We are saved based on choices we make regarding God’s provision, not on national status or physical citizenship. But if, when Paul says that “all Israel will be saved,” he is speaking of spiritual Israel, and if we understand that we become a “true Jew” only by a choice, then it all makes sense.
So with regards the law, the book of Revelation 14:12 tells us that those who refuse the mark of the beast keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus. Thus faith and commandment keeping go hand in hand, and apply to Jew and gentile (spiritual Jews) alike.

 

[brakelite]

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

I believe Paul made a mistake here. He rounded on Peter for being a coward before the deputation from Jerusalem, but when pressure is put on Paul, he caves also.

 

[jari]

I think its is pretty clear from the scripture that they don't have to obey the law so I'm just going to post these verses. If anynoe have any questions however please ask.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



Rom 10:5-6 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

(6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above




Rom 10:12-13 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[james g]

When we [Jewish believers] were in the flesh [they were now in Christ, and so in the Spirit] the arousings of sins which were through the Law wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

Wherefore my brethren, ye also were made dead to the Law through the body of

Christ.


As touching Gentile believers, this latter fact was to be reckoned on for the disannulling (Chapter 6:6) of “the body of sin,” relieving them of sin’s bondage. But for the Jewish believer, there was the additional fact that he was under the Law, which bound his conscience, and gave sin very peculiar power over him. For he must obey the Law, for it had been given his nation by Jehovah, and they had covenanted at Sinai to let their obedience be the condition of their relationship to Him.




To the Jewish believer, then, the announcement is now directly made that he was made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, in order to be to Another, to the risen Christ, thus to bring forth fruit to God; and that he has been [verse 6] discharged from the Law [literally, annulled with respect to the Law], thus bringing him out into service in newness of spirit.




This was the startling announcement made to those who, for 1500 years had known nothing but the Law: they had died to it all; the Law knew them no more.

Now what Paul affirms in Romans 6:14 covers, of course, both the Gentile and Jewish believer: “Ye are NOT UNDER LAW”: that is, not under that principle in any sense. The Gentiles had moral obligations as responsible children of Adam, though not under the Law, indeed, “without law.”There was the work of the Law in their hearts (as we saw in Chapter Two), with which their consciences bore witness. To Gentiles, therefore, the announcement that in Christ they are not at all under the principle of law, sets them free to delight in Christ, and to surrender to the operations of the Holy Spirit within them.

The additional announcement is made to those under the Mosaic Law that they have the same liberty, having died to that wherein they were held.


The great lesson which each of us must lay to his own heart, is, that those in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are not under law as a principle, but under grace,—full, accomplished Divine favor—that favor shown by God to Christ! And the life of the believer now is (1) in faith, not effort:as Paul speaks in Galatians 2:20: “The life which I now live in the flesh,I live in faith, the faith as Paul speaks in Galatians 2:20: “The life which I now live in the flesh,which is in the Son of God”;(2)
in the power of the indwelling Spirit; for walking by the Spirit has


taken the place of walking by external commandments; and (3) exercising ourselves to have a good conscience toward God and men always: particularly, not wrongly using our freedom.



While the form of the language in the first six verses makes it evident that the Mosaic Law was before Paul’s mind, at the same time it is of profit to us because: (1) We all have a moral responsibility to produce a righteousness and holiness before God and we cannot; (2) Both Jew

and Gentile are included in the tremendous statement of Chapter 6:6, “our old man was crucified.”





Through the body of Christ—This is a peculiar manner of speech. God speaks not here of propitiation or justification, which are through the blood of Christ (Rom. 3:25; 5:9; Eph 1:7). But God speaks here of that identification with Christ in which; in God’s view, all believers were brought to the end of their history at the cross, so that their former relationships (to sin, law, the world), are ended. It is to be noted that both concerning Christ’s death for us, and our death with Christ, Christ’s own body is mentioned. As to the first, we remember I Peter 2:24: “Who His own self bare our sins in His body upon the tree.” And as to the second, the present verse:





made dead . . . through the body of Christ.

That ye should be joined to Another, to Him who was raised from among the dead.



The great lesson to learn in this whole passage lies in what we might call the two Christs: first, there is“the body of Christ,” of Christ made sin, and our old man crucified with Him: our history in Adam thus ended before God; and, second,Christ raised from the dead. It is this latter Christ to whomwe are now vitally united, to Him only.


That we might bring forth fruit unto God.

In this Risen Christ, as we saw in Chapter 6:22:

“Ye have your fruit unto sanctification”; or Philippians 1:11; “being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are through Jesus Christ,” brought about—made to bud, blossom, grow and ripen, through the indwelling Spirit: or “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control” (Gal. 5:22)—what a cluster of grapes that is: fruit unto God, indeed!



Now—however the principle may apply to all believers—Paul evidently, in verses 4, 5 and 6, has the Jew under the Law definitely before him; for he says “Ye were made dead to the Law.” It is implicitly asserted here that those under law could not bring forth fruit to God. Because, in order to bring forth such fruit, they had to be made dead to the Law. This cannot be sufficiently emphasized, for all about us we find those who are earnestly seeking to bear fruit to God, while “entangled with the yoke of bondage,” not knowing themselves dead to the legal principle. But before our very eyes those publicly placed under law, yea the Mosaic Law directly from God, did not bring forth fruit in that condition. Else would God have had them die wholly out of that position with Christ on the cross?



No, it is only those who see themselves to have died with Christ and to be now joined to a Risen Christ in glory, that fully bring forth fruit to God.It Is a glorious day when a believer sees himself only in a Risen Christ—dead, buried and risen;and can say with another, “I am not in the flesh, not in the place of a child of Adam at all, but


delivered out of it by redemption. The whole scene of a living man, this world in which the life of Adam develops itself, and of which the Law is the moral rule, I do not belong to, before God, more than a man who died ten years ago out of it.”



Verse 5:


For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins which were through the Law

wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.


Now in this one verse is seen the whole

of the great struggle detailed by the apostle in the latter part of this chapter:



When we were in the flesh—

Note, it does not say, in the body, for we are all that! Being in the body has no moral

significance, but the words are, in the flesh—the condition of those not saved, as we
see from Chapter 8:8, 9: “For ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you.” This does describe a moral state or condition,—absence of life, absence of the Holy Spirit,and control by the fallen nature.





The passions of sins which were through the Law—





To those in the flesh controlled by the evil nature through a body dead to God, legal restraint was intolerable. As we shall see in the last


part of the chapter, sin was there, but quiescent, until the Law came, demanding obedience and holiness. Thus came the arousings [or passions] of sins—sins of all
sorts. It is evident that the Jew who had the Law, is distinctly and especially before the apostle’s mind here. For these words could not be written of “Gentiles who have not the Law” (2:14, 15); although these very two verses assert that there was a “work” written in the hearts of the Gentiles, which is called “the work of the Law,” unto which their consciences bear fellow-witness. (2:14.)





Nevertheless, it cannot be said that verse 5 describes accurately any but an Israelite to whom the Law was given, and in whom the commandments of that Law directly aroused the opposition of sin in the flesh.



Wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death—




Even in the last part of the chapter,in Paul’s great struggle—after he is saved, we find a law of sin in his members, against which he is powerless, and which would have engulfed him in everlasting hopelessness, except for the revelation of deliverance in Christ. Here, in verse 5, where an unsaved man, a man in the flesh, is in view,fruit unto death is brought forth by those “arousings of sins” which came through the Law





Verse 6:


But now we have been annulled from the Law, having died to that wherein we

were held: so that we serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.



This word which we have rendered annulled, is Paul’s old word katargeo,—“put out of




business.” In Chapter Six we read that “our old man was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled”—put out of business. That blessed message could be given to all believers, Jew or Gentile. For it is a federal one, as the words “our old man” reveal. But the Jew had not only the body of sin: he had distinctly given to him the Mosaic Law. Therefore it is written, in Chapter 7:6, that he has been annulled, put out of business, from that Law, having died to it.





The Law which once “held” him now had nothing to do with him, for he had been put out of the Law’s domain, out of the place of business in which the Law operated, that is, on natural children of Adam, on men in the flesh. What a glorious deliverance!


Now let us who are Gentile believers most carefully note two things: (1) that the Jewish believer, who was put publicly, and under sanctions of death, under the Law, by God at Sinai, has been declared by that same God to have died to that wherein he was held, so that the Law has no more business with him. (2) That therefore, however deeply taught by tradition that we Gentile believers are under law, we must throw that tradition all away. For if the Jew, who was Divinely placed under the Law, has been made dead to it and discharged therefrom, put out of the sphere and domain of the Law, then what presumption for a Gentile to claim that he is under that Law before God!



So that we serve!—


Wonderful paradoxes of the gospel! In verse 4, having died, they bear fruit;

and here, having been discharged, they serve. What an unspeakable satisfaction filled the apostle’s heart, at finding himself serving God, in all the capacities of his love-filled being, the more he felt his complete freedom from that Law that once “held” him. In the old days, it was, “I verily thought I ought to do”; now it is, “I delight to do.” As we say elsewhere, the instructed believer finds himself doing the will of God


as it is in heaven, that is, in the very spirit of service, and not by forms, or

ordinances—which are earthly “rudiments.”



Oldness of letter it once was—minute particulars of

legal observances according to the tradition of the fathers;


newness of spirit it had become when the apostle learned that he had died out to the whole legal sphere, to the Adam-position—man in the flesh,


unto whom the Law had been given at Sinai.


Truly Paul could say to his Jewish fellow-believers, God has here, concerning the Law, conferred on us a heavenly degree of D.D.: “Dead, Discharged.” (Beware that you do not turn into an LL.D. and go about “desiring to be teachers of the Law, understanding neither what you say, nor whereof you confidently affirm!” (I Tim. 1:7)



Now unto us Gentile believers, what a breeze from the delectable mountains this passage is!For our poor consciences are always—sad to say—ready to hear of some new “duty” or “path of surrender,” or “dying out” to this or that: not satisfied with God’s plain announcement that we died to sin, are not under law: that even those whom He placed under The Law had died to it, and been discharged therefrom! And that we are to present ourselves to Him as “alive from the dead, and our members as instruments of righteousness unto God—‘whose service is perfect freedom.’



Verse 7:


What shall we say, then? Is the Law sin?—Paul has been telling us in Chapter Six

of having died to sin, and now, in the first section of Chapter Seven, he tells us of having been made dead to the Law and discharged therefrom. His enemies (and he must always keep them in mind—the enemies of grace)—would immediately accuse him
thus: “You say we died to the Law;therefore you class the Law with sin.”




Banish the thought! is Paul’s answer—his usual holy,

horrified rejection of what is false.

On the contrary, I had not become conscious of sin except

through law:
That is, forbidding a thing to one who cannot abstain from that thing, is the way to

make him know his bondage—his own helplessness. “By the Law is the knowledge of sin.”



For I had not perceived evil-desire, except the Law had said, Thou shalt not have evil


desire—Here Paul begins to show the spiritual character and reach of the Law. He will
procee dthrough the rest of the Chapter to show in detail the spiritual effect of the Law on him.The direct reference in this word “desire” is to Deuteronomy 5:21, where the correct translation is, “Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbor’s house, his field, or his
man-servant, or his maid-servant, his ox, or his ***, or anything that is thy neighbor’s.” Now, Saul of Tarsus had been occupied with the outward things, positive and negative) of the Law. But when God quickened to his heart the real meaning of the word covet, or desire—showing him that “desire not” forbade the reaching out of the heart after anything other than loving God with all the heart, soul, and mind, and his neighbor




as himself; he discerned for the first time that such desire is sin.



For desire, in a creature, for aught else but God’s glory, is sin. Imagine Gabriel in God’s presence entertaining desire for something for himself : It would be the beginning of
another Lucifer! It will be well, by the way, for all legalists—for those who seek either righteousness or holiness through the Law, to HEAR the Law: “Thou shalt not have evil desire”!





Verse 8:


But sin, seizing occasion through the Commandment, wrought out in me all

manner of evil-desire. For apart from law sin is dead.



That indwelling sin which was in Paul’s members,—left there by God, had no means of making itself known to Paul, except by a quickened Law that became direct Divine




Commandment to hisvery self. Then, indeed, when God revealed to Paul, (already renewed but not knowing the incurable evil of the flesh) the spiritual nature and character of His holy Law, together with the demand on his conscience to fulfil it,—then came Sin’s chance! Paul had no strength,—only the renewed will: Let Paul undertake—as he will—to fulfil what was commanded! Then it will be seen that “the strength of sin is the Law”: that sin will prove itself stronger than Paul, through the Commandment!



Wrought out in me all manner of evil-desire.




This discovery that desire is sin would not be confined to the letter of the tenth commandment, “Thou shalt not desire, or covet”: but would in


Paul’s inner consciousness extend itself through the whole Decalogue: For the Law is one!



To illustrate the words apart from Law, sin is dead: Suppose a man determined to drive
his automobile to the very limit of its speed. If (as is not quite yet done!) signs along the road would say, No Speed Limit, the man’s only thought would be to press his machine forward. But now suddenly he encounters a road with frequent signs limiting speed to thirty miles an hour. The man’s will rebels, and his rebellion is aroused still further by threats: Speed Limit Strictly Enforced. Now the man drives on fiercely, conscious both of his desire to “speed,” and his rebellion against restraint.The speed limit signs did not create the wild desire to rush forward: that was there before. But the




notices brought the man into conscious conflict with authority.



For apart from Law, sin is dead—


Sin, like a coiled serpent, is in the old nature, but cannot

get at the conscience to condemn it: for indwelling sin has no means of “springing into life,”as,sin apart from law: it is quiescent, dormant, “dead.”




Every impulse of the flesh, the old natural life, is sin. Take desire, or coveting: who is to know that this inward, universal, natural desire is sin, till the Law says to the conscience, “Thou shalt not covet”? This command not to covet does not remove the covetousness, but rather calls attention to it. And in forbidding it, immediately puts into conflict the renewed human will with the power of indwelling sin,—in this case with covetousness. Now, however quickened or renewed the human will may be, strength, power against sin, does not reside in the human will. Furthermore, human strength is not God’s way to overcome indwelling sin. That power resides always and only in the indwelling Holy Spirit.RomvsbyvsNewell

 

[gdemoss]

Actually, there is no such thing as unclean food. If something was declared unclean, then the Lord was saying, "that is not food". By declaring something clean, He was saying, "this is food." It wasn't just for Jews these dietary laws, they were for all men for all time. There are perfectly good reasons for God giving us His 'recipe' for health. He loves us and wants us to be at the peak of physical, mental, and spiritual health. If we spend most of our dining time partaking of substances unfit for human consumption, regardless of whether or not they taste good, we will suffer the consequences.

I would like to see you take each and every point that you have concluded as fact above and show scriptural support for them.

• Show where it says that gentiles should not eat pig because it is not food.
• Show where God stated that his purpose for declaring something unclean was to say that 'that is not food'.
• Show where God stated that the 'dietary laws' were for all men for all time.
• Show where God stated that his purpose for creating these laws was for the purpose of peak physical, mental, and spiritual health.

What you say 'sounds' good in theory just as many different human observations of scripture do. However one cannot come to the conclusions that you have without adding to scripture and assuming Gods motives and purposes.

Before there was ever a man created; before sin ever entered into the heart of Lucifer; when righteousness and love ruled the heavens, there must have been law.

This is merely an assumption. Everything built upon an assumption is only as factual as the assumption itself. If the assumption is not rooted in scriptural fact it must be rejected. Where do we find this as truth in the bible. Show me and I will be glad to follow it.

Despite the fact that there were only righteous beings living in obligation to it. We know this because we are told that Lucifer (Satan) became a liar and a murderer and was such right from the beginning. He became a sinner because there was a law already in place which he disobeyed. 'Sin is the transgression against the law'.

The scripture doesn't actually say that sin is the transgression against the law. KJV translators took liberty to translate it that way. The translation is 'sin is iniquity' or lawlessness. Paul tells us that sin was in the world in the days of Noah, but that where there is no law sin is not imputed. Sin exists outside of and independent of law. There is no biblical proof to support the claim that God gave the angels laws to abide by. It is an assumption based on a mistranslated verse. Even using the verse translated as the KJV does, one would have to conclude that the verse says 'Sin is the transgression of the law' and not 'Sin can only exist if the law has been transgressed'. There is a big difference. Sin as shown above is independent of the law. Only made exceedingly sinful by it.

There is confusion with the idea that the "law is only for the unrighteous". To my mind that does not mean that if one is declared righteous by the Father due to His faith in Jesus, that means the law itself has been invalidated.

Correct. If one lies they are still sinning. You add in a different proposal when you say 'if one is declared righteous'. This is completely a different matter all together. We are simply discussing righteous versus unrighteous people. Not the imputed righteousness that one receives by believing God.

I spoke of this with another brother at work today. If we removed all of the speed limits from all roads, who would then drive recklessly? The righteous or the unrighteous? Would not the righteous still drive responsibly so that they would not be harming others, even though the law was removed? The law is not made for the righteous.

Certainly we are no longer under its condemnation, but only if we are living the life of the Lifegiver, as you say. If we stray and sin, the law comes straight back into effect and the Holy Spirit points to the law and convicts us. We confess, are cleansed from all the unrighteousness we repent of, and we get up and go forward.

This is you putting yourself under the OT law. I am under the law of Christ. Not the OT law. To stray is to stray from the person of Christ as he is divine in nature being selfless.

Our focus is always on Christ. We abide in Him, trusting fully in Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith. And day by day we become more like Him. We study His life, we see where we fall short, we pray, confess our frailty, admit to our utter need of Him for without Him we can do nothing, He gives us more power, and we grow.

If we sin, we are not abiding in Christ. Becoming more like him does not mean to sin less and less as some would believe but instead to grow in his maturity and wisdom. One becomes like him in sinlessness when they pick up their cross and deny themselves. Over time one begins to learn how to respond in situations as he has responded such as dealing with the wicked Pharisees.

Below is Barnes commentary

I don't partake in the Christian Mars Hill.

We now have the power in us to keep the spirit of the law as it was intended from the very beginning.

We have always had this power. Just as Cain did when God told him that he was to rule over sin. God did not tell him to do something that he could not do. That would be unrighteous.

The same of course with the 6th commandment as Jesus pointed out. That said however, in keeping the spirit of the law, is not the letter of the law kept also?

A righteous man is not made righteous by law whether it be the spirit or the letter. A righteous man no longer needs law to govern him. He is righteous. Do you believe Jesus needed the law to govern him lest he make a mistake and sin?

In fact, could it not be said that it is impossible to keep the spirit of the law and not keep the letter?

If your goal is keeping the law. If your goal is being righteous then you don't need any law. You need Christ who is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh. That which we have seen with our eyes and held with our hands as John says of the word of life.

So you say you keep the spirit of the law regarding the 4th commandment through the rest you have in Christ.

Never said that. Sorry if that is what impression I gave you. I will try to be clearer. I say that I do not work to keep the law of the Sabbath either spiritually or by the letter. It is something that is fulfilled in me everyday if and only if I am living in the spirit of Christ selflessly which there is no law against...not even the Sabbath.

If the rest you speak of however was truly the spirit so to speak of the 4th commandment then would it not be fair to say that the letter of the 4th commandment must be observed also? So what's missing?

If I do nothing solely for myself but base all of my actions on pleasing God and serving others then how could I possibly break the Sabbath any day of the week?

Are Jewish folk saved in any manner different from the rest of us?

Yes, they are God's chosen people. We are in a period of time known as the time of the Gentiles. God is using us to provoke them to jealousy.

Is God racist?

Where did this idea stem from?

Is He a respecter of persons?

Of course not as you most certainly know.

God does not have one method of salvation for Jews and a different one for non-Jews. Everyone is saved the same way under the same program—by grace through faith.

Amen. The law saves no one. Not having the law condemns no one.

Paul uses the analogy of an olive tree to explain that all Gentiles who are saved are grafted into the stock of Israel. “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root [supports] thee” (Romans 11:17, 18).

If it is as you say, that the Gentiles have simply become a part of Israel, then there would be no reason for the council of Acts 15 to decide on whether the Gentiles should keep the law. If they are of Israel then they should all be circumcised and keep the law as the law is of Israel. If however, Abraham is the father of the Gentile nations who believe as the bible suggests, then the law does not pertain to us as it did not to Abraham our father.

The Christian religion is based on a Jewish manual called the Bible. (In this light, it is difficult to understand how any professed Christian could be anti-Semitic.)

Amen.

Christianity is not a new religion, but rather the completion of the Jewish faith. The new covenant is made “with the house of Israel”! God never makes a salvation covenant with Gentiles.

God never said he wouldn't or hasn't made a covenant with Gentiles. He came into his own and his own received him not. But to as many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God. Gods plan is much larger than Israel. Gods plan includes the salvation of not only the Jews or Gentiles that believe but even those of Noah's day who believe. His ways are past finding out. This has never been about Israel. It has been about the revelation of God to his creation. He used Israel to do so just as he used Pharaoh to show his power.

In fact, nowhere in Scripture do you find any saving covenant made with anyone but Israelites! So if you want to be saved, you must be born again as a spiritual Jew.

I understand why you say this but it is not true. If you want to be saved you must believe God and have it accounted to you for righteousness. That is the only requirement. That said, God has given us witness of his son, that he is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh, the light of the world. Israel and the law are not the light of the world. We must follow Jesus not Israel or the law. Jesus is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. The world, not just Israel. The plan has always been the same. God was out to save the whole world if they simply would believe.

So with this in mind, we can now better understand what Paul meant when he said, “And so all Israel shall be saved” (Romans 11:26). Some take this verse to mean that God will ultimately save all literal Jews. If this were true, it would contradict every principle of God’s dealings with humans throughout history and Scripture. God is not a racist. In Jesus’ eyes, “There is neither Jew nor Greek” (Galatians 3:28).

So all Israel shall be saved. Paul is speaking of a remnant of true believers within the nation of Israel, such as was in the days of Elijah. The key to understanding the phrase is understanding what was written. There shall come the Deliverer out of Sion and he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. From who? Jacob? Jacob is unconverted Israel. Those who are like Paul who came face to face with the truth in Jesus that resulted in accepting Christ as King of the Jews are the ones spoken of here. And so all who are Israel and not still just Jacob shall be saved.

We are saved based on choices we make regarding God’s provision, not on national status or physical citizenship. But if, when Paul says that “all Israel will be saved,” he is speaking of spiritual Israel, and if we understand that we become a “true Jew” only by a choice, then it all makes sense.

This misses the bigger picture of it never having been about Israel but about God. And again, we are saved by believing God and him accounting it to us for righteousness.

So with regards the law, the book of Revelation 14:12 tells us that those who refuse the mark of the beast keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus. Thus faith and commandment keeping go hand in hand, and apply to Jew and gentile (spiritual Jews) alike.

Interesting that you would bring this scripture up to try and validate a point of everyone becoming Israel and being under the law. It doesn't say keep God's 10 commandments given on Sinai. It says keep God's commandments. Did Abel keep the commandments God gave him? Enoch? Noah? Abraham? Did they keep the 10 commandments? Did Jesus present the Gentiles with the 10 commandments or the complete law of Moses?

I am not a spiritual Jew. I am a Christian. A follower of Christ. One who was the express image of God that happen to be born into the world as a Jew. Being a Jew or spiritual Jew did not save Christ. Even Christ had to be saved from death. He wasn't saved because he was a Jew or followed the law, he was saved because he was/is the sinless son of God that death had no right to hold.

Have a wonderful day brother,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



Rom 10:5-6 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

(6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above




Rom 10:12-13 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jari, I understand why you see what you see but consider this: The above verses are about righteousness, not about being under the law or not for the Jews.

You quoted:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Your emphasis being on 'end of the law' and 'everyone'. Try it this way:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

With the emphasis moved to the prepositional phrase that modifies what 'the end of the law' means, we see that the end had limitations that were only speaking of reason for keeping the law and not the discontinuance of the law itself.

I hope I have been clear,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

William R. Newell - 2004 - Religion - 588 pages

James, when i saw how much you had written, I was excited at the response. Then, I quickly realized it was nothing more than a commentary from some other man. I am not interested in commenting on William's commentary as William is not here. I don't bother reading commentaries, but instead search the scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then converse with others who do the same. I cannot converse with a commentary.

In Christ,

Gary