Does God draw all men equally?

[rojoloco]

Regarding those who believe God draws all men equally, can we truly claim this using the Bible alone? I recently replied to this topic with another guy. Below is my response (tailored somewhat to make it applicable to all who might read it).

It is amazing how not understanding one word can confuse so much. While we see the word "draw" many times in Scripture, there are actually multiple words that translate into it but have quite different meanings. Follow me if you will.

Hebrews 7:25 (proserchomai)
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who DRAW near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 10:22 (proserchomai)
let us DRAW near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

James 4:8 (eggizō)
DRAW near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

John 4:11 (antlēma)
She *said to Him, “ Sir, You have nothing to DRAW with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?

We can clearly see there are multiple Greek words which translate into our English word for DRAW. The definition of proserchomai and eggizō are quite similar. They refer to coming to, bringing near, or approaching something. Antlēma simply refers to drawing water and is only used in this one instance.

However, we have yet another word that gets translated as DRAW and, unfortunately, gets lost in translation. What makes it even more interesting is that it is the word most often associated with God. Do a word search on the other 3 and you will see they are never used to speak of God drawing individuals. If it were, there might be a case. As many are using it, they are saying that God draws all men equally but it is up to them whether or not to respond to the drawing. Based on the Greek words, many are claiming that God approaches them but they have to choose whether or not to accept Him or ignore Him.

The Greek word that is always associated with God's drawing of individuals is helkō. It means to draw with an inward power, to drag, or to impel. If you do a word search, you will see this word is always used in a sense of control and authority. The one drawing is commanding, controlling, or dragging the subject. It is not merely approaching, coming close, or requesting. If you want that definition, you must stick with one of the other 3 words above. Helkō Is not your word.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

If you think that God draws (helkō) all men equally, you are compelled, based on the original language, to say you also believe all men will be lifted up on the last day. You are also compelled to say that God controls/impels/drags every last person into His presence and into Christ.

This interpretation does not jive with any doctrinal outlook outside of Universalism and can only hope we all frown upon that one. When forming doctrinal statements, one must always go back to the Hebrew or Greek and NEVER rely solely upon the English translation.

 

[RJ]

Regarding those who believe God draws all men equally, can we truly claim this using the Bible alone? I recently replied to this topic with another guy. Below is my response (tailored somewhat to make it applicable to all who might read it).

It is amazing how not understanding one word can confuse so much. While we see the word "draw" many times in Scripture, there are actually multiple words that translate into it but have quite different meanings. Follow me if you will.

Hebrews 7:25 (proserchomai)
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who DRAW near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 10:22 (proserchomai)
let us DRAW near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

James 4:8 (eggizō)
DRAW near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

John 4:11 (antlēma)
She *said to Him, “ Sir, You have nothing to DRAW with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?

We can clearly see there are multiple Greek words which translate into our English word for DRAW. The definition of proserchomai and eggizō are quite similar. They refer to coming to, bringing near, or approaching something. Antlēma simply refers to drawing water and is only used in this one instance.

However, we have yet another word that gets translated as DRAW and, unfortunately, gets lost in translation. What makes it even more interesting is that it is the word most often associated with God. Do a word search on the other 3 and you will see they are never used to speak of God drawing individuals. If it were, there might be a case. As many are using it, they are saying that God draws all men equally but it is up to them whether or not to respond to the drawing. Based on the Greek words, many are claiming that God approaches them but they have to choose whether or not to accept Him or ignore Him.

The Greek word that is always associated with God's drawing of individuals is helkō. It means to draw with an inward power, to drag, or to impel. If you do a word search, you will see this word is always used in a sense of control and authority. The one drawing is commanding, controlling, or dragging the subject. It is not merely approaching, coming close, or requesting. If you want that definition, you must stick with one of the other 3 words above. Helkō Is not your word.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

If you think that God draws (helkō) all men equally, you are compelled, based on the original language, to say you also believe all men will be lifted up on the last day. You are also compelled to say that God controls/impels/drags every last person into His presence and into Christ.

This interpretation does not jive with any doctrinal outlook outside of Universalism and can only hope we all frown upon that one. When forming doctrinal statements, one must always go back to the Hebrew or Greek and NEVER rely solely upon the English translation.

This interpretation does not jive with any doctrinal outlook outside of Universalism and can only hope we all frown upon that one. When forming doctrinal statements, one must always go back to the Hebrew or Greek and NEVER rely solely upon the English translation.

What if you read English translations and let the Holy Spirit teach you doctrine?<!-- / message -->

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Who does the actual helko/drawing.
In John 6:44 the Father draws men to Christ before the Son is lifted up.
In John 12:32 the glorified Son draws all men(men is an embellishment by the translators) to himself.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

It does appear that The Fathers drawing may have been exclusive(at least not equal) but that seems to have been a tactical move of intervention.
The strategy was always that the Lamb would draw all to the glorified Son.
I believe this because the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

It is my personal experience(my flesh tells me) that God seems to drag some into the kingdom and ignore some who are trying to get in.That may have something to do with praying people into the new birth though.We pray more about the worst cases and sometimes ignore the subtle signs that someone is struggling.

 

[rojoloco]

This interpretation does not jive with any doctrinal outlook outside of Universalism and can only hope we all frown upon that one. When forming doctrinal statements, one must always go back to the Hebrew or Greek and NEVER rely solely upon the English translation.

What if you read English translations and let the Holy Spirit teach you doctrine?<!-- / message -->

Then you are falling short in one major area. We are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2). We are to indeed search the Scriptures as the Bereans (Acts 17:11) but even they had the original languages to study. The Spirit will guide us in our understanding but that does not absolve us of our responsibility to be a diligent student of the Word. The simple fact of the matter is that some things do not translate into English properly. All the intellectual knowledge in the world will never grant a man an understanding of God so long as he is lacking the Spirit but, to be effective, one must remain in the Word, study the languages, and pray the Spirit reveals Himself in the Word.

 

[rojoloco]

It is my personal experience(my flesh tells me) that God seems to drag some into the kingdom and ignore some who are trying to get in.

I would be very careful with this thought. We can be certain that there will not be one person who wants to be saved yet is ignored. However, we can also rest assured, due to man's fallen nature which is dead, that without the regeneration of the Spirit, no man will desire God.

The distinction between the different Greek words cannot be ignored. Too many people fail to see things like this because they do not take the time to study the original languages. Unfortunately, this failure has been the result of many mistakes and false doctrines.

 

[RJ]

Then you are falling short in one major area. We are told to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2). We are to indeed search the Scriptures as the Bereans (Acts 17:11) but even they had the original languages to study. The Spirit will guide us in our understanding but that does not absolve us of our responsibility to be a diligent student of the Word. The simple fact of the matter is that some things do not translate into English properly. All the intellectual knowledge in the world will never grant a man an understanding of God so long as he is lacking the Spirit but, to be effective, one must remain in the Word, study the languages, and pray the Spirit reveals Himself in the Word.

I will just leave my guidance up to the Holy Spirit and let him decide if I am falling short, he transcends all launguage barries and speaks to God on my behalf.
With all respect, I will settle for that and not your interpretation of what to do thank you!

 

[Kit Carson]

God provides us all with a measure of faith. He reveals himself to all.

But we do have free will and it all comes down to that. What each person does with their free will , how readily they accept and how they listen to the spirit or push it away. So if some seem to not draw to God , it is not Gods fault. Their own will restricts the way.

God does not call harder to anyone over another, he may take a person who is suited for things such as being a pastor and place that in their heart, but their own free will accepts that.

God does not discriminate, some have different places, at different times, different jobs, but his way and the grace of Christ was provided for all equally.

Kit

 

[rojoloco]

I will just leave my guidance up to the Holy Spirit and let him decide if I am falling short, he transcends all launguage barries and speaks to God on my behalf.
With all respect, I will settle for that and not your interpretation of what to do thank you!

I definitely can't be the one to convict in an area like this. All I can do is inform. That being said, think about the language that the authors studied in. It certainly was not a translation.

 

[rojoloco]

God provides us all with a measure of faith. He reveals himself to all.

I do not disagree with this. Scripture tells us that God reveals Himself even by nature alone (Romans 1:20).

But we do have free will and it all comes down to that. What each person does with their free will , how readily they accept and how they listen to the spirit or push it away. So if some seem to not draw to God , it is not Gods fault. Their own will restricts the way.

While this is a completely different topic, I will say this view is found nowhere in Scripture. Sure, it has been determined by people to be true but that does not make it so. At most, one can say it is implicit in Scripture. However, nowhere is it explicit. Of course, this is the big debate between Monergism & Synergism.

God does not call harder to anyone over another,

Again, we need to look at the differences in the words being used. I wouldn't say it is a matter of God trying harder as much as it is a matter of God performing 2 entirely separate acts.

 

[RJ]

I definitely can't be the one to convict in an area like this. All I can do is inform. That being said, think about the language that the authors studied in. It certainly was not a translation.

Again, I am sure the Holy Spirit can handle it for me!!!

Does he speak to you or do you rely on your own powers?!

 

[rojoloco]

Again, I am sure the Holy Spirit can handle it for me!!!

Does he speak to you or do you rely on your own powers?!

RJ, I'm not going to answer this because you already know the answer. You appear to be shifting the discussion so as to avoid the original topic. In the end, you appear more concerned with justifying why you should not have to go to the original Greek when there are 4 reasons posted above that you did not know existed (totally assuming this based on your response) prior to this thread.

You appear to be justifying your reasoning for not studying with your mind by appealing to letting the Spirit do everything for you. Either way, you have not addressed the topic at hand and have only focused on defending your abstaining from Greek.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Would you then say with drawn in mind, that Mat 28:19-20 would mean those who respond will only be those who are drawn, and that we are the vessels by which this can occur? or that when "nations" is mentioned here that it is not specific to individuals, but to groups of people and if so, would the same proposition of being drawn still apply?

Good post brother!
C4E

 

[RJ]

RJ, I'm not going to answer this because you already know the answer. You appear to be shifting the discussion so as to avoid the original topic. In the end, you appear more concerned with justifying why you should not have to go to the original Greek when there are 4 reasons posted above that you did not know existed (totally assuming this based on your response) prior to this thread.

You appear to be justifying your reasoning for not studying with your mind by appealing to letting the Spirit do everything for you. Either way, you have not addressed the topic at hand and have only focused on defending your abstaining from Greek.

Hmmm!
If I actually knew the answer I wouldn't have asked but, you have your own agenda apparently rather than answer.

I am not trying to change anything but get clarification. It is you who said that study the original Greek meanings is the only way to learn the Bible and not from the English translations. So, what does your knowledge of Greek tell you the purpose of the Holy Spirit?

I will try another question:
What does your Greek tell you about this verse?:
<SUP>26</SUP> But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

 

[gdemoss]

This interpretation does not jive with any doctrinal outlook outside of Universalism and can only hope we all frown upon that one. When forming doctrinal statements, one must always go back to the Hebrew or Greek and NEVER rely solely upon the English translation.

What if you read English translations and let the Holy Spirit teach you doctrine?<!-- / message -->

Rojoloco, while I agree with you that there is great value in studying the original languages for the purpose of understanding, I have to agree with RJ here. The Holy Spirit can use any language to teach you doctrine. The spirit taught me what I know from English translations. Going back to the original languages didn't change my doctrine. For that matter, you don't need a bible to be saved. You need to hear the word of God and believe it. It will be accounted to you for righteousness subsequently displayed by your works.

ἕλκω - It seems John was fond of using this descriptive word, yet Matt, Mk and Luke did not.

Corresponding Hebrew Words

helko H1540 galah - has the idea of taking away ie, uncover or carry away
helko H1641 garar - has the idea of dragging away
helko H4871 mashah hi. - to 'draw' as out of water
helko H4900 mashakh - draw, drag, seize (Jdg 4:7 interesting use see below)
helko H5047 negad - to stream or flow (Aramaic)
helko H5130 nuph hi. - wave or shake
helko H7602 shaaph - to be swallowed up, panted after
helko H7702 sadad pi. - has the sense of breaking up the ground
helko H8025 shalaph - drawn as a sword or plucked off as a shoe

Jdg 4:7 And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera , the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand .

I have come to the conclusion that the drawing that God is doing in Christ has more to do with the undeniable truth that is in him. All of us have Gods law written on our hearts and along with the very conscience that he has given us as a goad to drive us. We however can turn Gods truth into a lie and sear the conscience with a hot iron. While it may be hard to kick against the pricks, it is not impossible. Nonetheless God so loved the world...


Deep appreciation for the study, Love in Christ

Gary

 

[agua]

Regarding those who believe God draws all men equally, can we truly claim this using the Bible alone?

The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of sin, righteousness and judgement. So yes God draws all men equally.

Joh 16:7-11 NKJV Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. (8) And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (9) of sin, because they do not believe in Me; (10) of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; (11) of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

 

[brakelite]

I have a great problem with the idea of 'irresistable grace'. Whilst I grant you that the Greek word helkuo or helko means to 'compel' or to 'drag', I don't see in it the irresistibility that you would have us accept.
God is a God of love, and I can never get past the idea that love demands choice. Any other kind in the spiritual sense is spiritual rape.

 

[gdemoss]

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

If you think that God draws (helkō) all men equally, you are compelled, based on the original language, to say you also believe all men will be lifted up on the last day. You are also compelled to say that God controls/impels/drags every last person into His presence and into Christ.

This interpretation does not jive with any doctrinal outlook outside of Universalism and can only hope we all frown upon that one. When forming doctrinal statements, one must always go back to the Hebrew or Greek and NEVER rely solely upon the English translation.

More thoughts on these recently. This actually has the idea of grabbing and pulling toward. So it is either as you have said in one of your examples or God does 'draw' everyone equally to him just not using his best grip. Some pull away and are lost. We can't reason how much strength God has decided to use can we?

Gary