Are you really saved?

[gdemoss]

Hi Ozell,

Interesting topic. First I would like to state that I agree with you that osas is not biblical. You have pointed out scripture that is in opposition to that doctrine.

Can we know we that we are saved today?

Consider this scripture: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The word for saved here in the Greek manuscript is in the 'perfect' tense which means that it is an action completed in the past with present results. I would guess that you would consider this the same as Romans 3 where we are forgiven of our past sins, correct?

Following that logic then one has to say that if we sin willfully (Heb 10) then we have lost that salvation as there is no more sacrifice for sin. And this would be supported by the Romans 14 weak brother who if he ate against his conscience would be damned. As well as the Widow in Timothy who cast of her first faith.

And yes there are those in the letters to the churches in Revelation that are basically told to overcome (works) or be hurt of the second death.

Then we have all of those who appear before Jesus saying Lord Lord but do not enter into heaven because they worked iniquity.

Yeah, there is evidence that salvation once obtained cannot be guaranteed but the question is can we ever be sure that we will be saved (have eternal life)?

Consider Paul: 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

These are the words of someone who is sure they are going to be saved.

And again:2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

What should a believer be doing (works) to assure that he will receive what Paul hoped to receive?

• Prepare yourself to be offered
• fight a good fight
• work toward finishing your course
• Keep the faith

As I read your posts through out this thread I had various concerns about your understanding of the scriptures. My greatest concern is that it seems that you believe we have to obey that which is in the old testament regarding laws and commands. That we should keep the Sabbath etc. You used the example of Jesus and the fact that we must walk as he walked and therefore concluded that since he kept the Sabbath, Ten Commandments, Mosaic Law then so should we. I understand where this logic comes from and how it may seem reasonable. Consider the following:

There is a New Covenant and an Old Covenant. By the law of covenant relationships, the people under the New Covenant cannot be put under any part of the Old Covenant unless it is specifically stated in the New Covenant. We find in the New Covenant that the Old Covenant was for our learning. But what is the New Covenant which we speak of? God sent his only begotten Son to be Lord and Savior of Israel. Israel rejected him and killed him. God raised him from the dead and opened up a New Covenant relationship with anyone who would believe and receive his Son as their Lord and Savior.

That said, to receive Jesus as Lord means to follow all that he taught. Jesus never spoke anywhere about keeping the Sabbath. But that he was Lord of the Sabbath. Paul tells us to let no one question us about the Sabbath or Feast days. He was worried about the salvation of the Galatians because they were being deceived into following the Old Covenant laws. Why would anyone want to be under Old Covenant? Jesus told us why. No one having tasted the old wine desires the new. The blood of Christ is the new wine but you must have Jesus as Lord and obey his commands (found in the New Covenant) in order to be saved.

My conclusion on the matter of 'being saved' in the here and now is that we can indeed know whether or not we will be taking part in the Resurrection of the just or the unjust. But only if we are fulfilling our end of the New Covenant with Christ. We must work to keep a good conscience toward God and man.

My hope is that this is thought provoking

My love to you brother. Let us grow in Christ together.

Gary

 

[ozell]

a side note concerning Peter being killed in Rome

this is not true

here is why

the Lord told Peter that he will grow old and that he will need help in his goings.

John 21

<SUP>17</SUP>He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

<SUP id=en-KJV-26917 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>18</SUP>Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26918 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>19</SUP>This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Jesus never went to Rome

Peter never went to Rome

lets dispell the myth.

 

[ozell]

Hello Brother Gary

thnaks for taking the time and having the courage to respond.

I really appreciate it as I do all who respond.

gdemoss;188463]Hi Ozell,

Interesting topic. First I would like to state that I agree with you that osas is not biblical. You have pointed out scripture that is in opposition to that doctrine.

Can we know we that we are saved today?

no

Consider this scripture: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

also consider

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

and

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The word for saved here in the Greek manuscript is in the 'perfect' tense which means that it is an action completed in the past with present results. I would guess that you would consider this the same as Romans 3 where we are forgiven of our past sins, correct?

correct.

Following that logic then one has to say that if we sin willfully (Heb 10) then we have lost that salvation as there is no more sacrifice for sin. And this would be supported by the Romans 14 weak brother who if he ate against his conscience would be damned. As well as the Widow in Timothy who cast of her first faith.

as long as we are alive there is hope we must not take away hope which is Jesus

Ecclesiastes 9:4
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

so we must repent

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

as long as that person don't die in his sins he has hope

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

And yes there are those in the letters to the churches in Revelation that are basically told to overcome (works) or be hurt of the second death.

Then we have all of those who appear before Jesus saying Lord Lord but do not enter into heaven because they worked iniquity.

Yeah, there is evidence that salvation once obtained cannot be guaranteed but the question is can we ever be sure that we will be saved (have eternal life)?

so much proof that we are not saved now and don't know.

Consider Paul: 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

read down to verse 10 and we are told when we are present with with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:10
<SUP id=en-KJV-28888 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>10</SUP>For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These are the words of someone who is sure they are going to be saved.

And again:2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

.

Paul said that we shall receive it at Jesus appearing

and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

Paul may know his outcome but we don't know our until we see Jesus.

this support that we don't know until Jesus comes

What should a believer be doing (works) to assure that he will receive what Paul hoped to receive?

• Prepare yourself to be offered
• fight a good fight
• work toward finishing your course
• Keep the faith

each and every one of those I will ask HOW do we do these things ?
yet you said we hope to receive which is correct

1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

As I read your posts through out this thread I had various concerns about your understanding of the scriptures. My greatest concern is that it seems that you believe we have to obey that which is in the old testament regarding laws and commands. That we should keep the Sabbath etc. You used the example of Jesus and the fact that we must walk as he walked and therefore concluded that since he kept the Sabbath, Ten Commandments, Mosaic Law then so should we. I understand where this logic comes from and how it may seem reasonable. Consider the following:

when Jesus said keep his commandments he told us to keep his sabbath day

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Jesus said we are to live by every word spoken from his mouth

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

There is a New Covenant and an Old Covenant. By the law of covenant relationships, the people under the New Covenant cannot be put under any part of the Old Covenant unless it is specifically stated in the New Covenant. We find in the New Covenant that the Old Covenant was for our learning. But what is the New Covenant which we speak of? God sent his only begotten Son to be Lord and Savior of Israel. Israel rejected him and killed him. God raised him from the dead and opened up a New Covenant relationship with anyone who would believe and receive his Son as their Lord and Savior.

please post from the bible the NC and the OC so we can compare

I have come to find that most christians dont know the OC and NC even though it is written

Please post so we can compare

That said, to receive Jesus as Lord means to follow all that he taught. Jesus never spoke anywhere about keeping the Sabbath. But that he was Lord of the Sabbath. Paul tells us to let no one question us about the Sabbath or Feast days. He was worried about the salvation of the Galatians because they were being deceived into following the Old Covenant laws. Why would anyone want to be under Old Covenant? Jesus told us why. No one having tasted the old wine desires the new. The blood of Christ is the new wine but you must have Jesus as Lord and obey his commands (found in the New Covenant) in order to be saved.

Jesus told us to keep the commandments

keeping the sabbath is keeping the commandments


John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments

is the blood of Jesus something knew or something old

was Noah under the blood of Jesus, we can read that Noah was under grace which is the blood of Jesus

Genesis 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

and the blood of Jesus was here from the foundation of the world

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

My conclusion on the matter of 'being saved' in the here and now is that we can indeed know whether or not we will be taking part in the Resurrection of the just or the unjust. But only if we are fulfilling our end of the New Covenant with Christ. We must work to keep a good conscience toward God and man.

and what is our end? what must we do?

Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

My hope is that this is thought provoking

My love to you brother. Let us grow in Christ together.

Gary

thanks Brother

 

[ozell]

i already answered the question. They die because of persecuation. But are still saved.
i believe book of revelation talks lot about the slain saints and how God avenges their death.


Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.



Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

yea you did

they knew in Revelation when the Lord returned.

 

[my_little_pony]

Matthew 19:19
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Sir and Mr
Maam or Mrs

what wrong with it?

Well, I think the point is, Jesus said not to do it. He gave his reasons for why he felt we should not do it.

Are we able to hear Jesus give command and then obey it, even if it contradicts our traditions and understanding of respectability?

And if not, then what's the point of being saved, or, do we really believe that God will be badgered into saving us because we know all the proof texts about salvation, and yet we didn't want to act on what Jesus told us to do?

This is why I have been pushing for people to talk about what Jesus told us to do with life, as a means of working out what salvation is. It's not just being "saved". It is what we are being saved from.

Salvation includes being born again into a whole new set of values, totally different from the values of this world. Like the "call no man father" teaching.

It's about viewing one another as brothers and sisters in Christ and God as our father. Special titles mostly only serve to divide people or lift people up with pride against one another. For example, is it really respect if an employer demands to be called "Mr" or "Sir"?

 

[gdemoss]

Brother Ozell, thanks for the response.

Hello Brother Gary

thnaks for taking the time and having the courage to respond.

I really appreciate it as I do all who respond.

It is my pleasure to be active with brothers in Christ working to build each other up.

also consider

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

First this verse should be translated 'through the faith'. To say 'we establish the law' isn't saying that through faith everyone is brought under the law. It is only saying that the law was not abolished by faith. Those who were under law had to take it by faith in order to have the righteousness of God imputed unto them.

and

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We both agree. Works are required. I believe the difference is that we do not agree exactly what those works must be. They are not the works of the law or the Ten Commandments.

2 Cor 3-7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The Greek word translated 'done away' is the same Greek word used above in Rom 3:31 for 'make void'. Although the law was not done away with through faith it was in fact done away with. It was done away with or replaced if you will by the ministration of the spirit. This is not to say that the law isn't good. It was perfect for the Old Covenant with Israel as God prepared the way for Christ to come. And then the New Covenant which does not include the law. I will address this later on in the post.

as long as we are alive there is hope we must not take away hope which is Jesus

Ecclesiastes 9:4
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

This verse does not constitute reason to believe that a person who is sinning willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth should have any hope (Heb 10:26) even if they repent. Counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing is something that God will judge (Heb 10:29-31). Nor to one who has 'fallen away' (Heb 6). The only hope one has is entering into a Covenant relationship with God through Christ and keeping the covenant.

so we must repent

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

This is merely a hypothetical that John is stating to 'his children' and does not denote whether the sin is willful or otherwise. I let scripture interpret scripture and believe that Heb 6 and Heb 10 limit the scope of this verse to those who are not willfully sinning.

as long as that person don't die in his sins he has hope

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 18:26
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

These verses speak of someone who turns away from God. Of course they die. That doesn't give hope to anyone. You cannot say that the reverse is true simply because this is stated this way.

read down to verse 10 and we are told when we are present with with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:10

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That is correct brother. But that doesn't change the fact that Paul said that we can be so confident that we would actually desire to depart and be with Christ. This kind of confidence comes from knowing you are saved. We are saved by hope. My hope is in a God who cannot lie. He promised me eternal life if I serve him.


.

Paul said that we shall receive it at Jesus appearing

and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

Paul may know his outcome but we don't know our until we see Jesus.

this support that we don't know until Jesus comes

Each individual can certainly know his outcome before hand. They just need to base it off of obedience to Jesus, which is being in the faith. I can have boldness in the day of judgment if I walk as he walked (1 jn 4:17).

each and every one of those I will ask HOW do we do these things ?
yet you said we hope to receive which is correct

yes hope. I hope to receive a paycheck this week. The probability is that I will. I hope to wake up tomorrow. Most likely I will. I hope my car will start tomorrow. It usually does. All of these things depend upon something outside of myself to happen, yet they do. My hope is confirmed. With salvation my hope is in a God who cannot lie who promised. Why should I doubt in the least?

when Jesus said keep his commandments he told us to keep his sabbath day


If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Your assuming he meant the Ten Commandments. Which is an understandable error. If he meant the Ten Commandments, he would not have had it written in 2 Cor that the glory of them would be done away with and replaced by the ministration of the spirit. Jesus taught and commanded many things while he was here. I know there are verses that make it seem like he was commanding to keep the Ten Commandments but these verses are to Jews under the Old Covenant. They were under the law just like Jesus.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Great call! See how these verses show a distinction between the Father's commandments and Jesus's?

Jesus said we are to live by every word spoken from his mouth

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Amen brother. Sometimes God is doing something a certain way like allowing man to live by the dictates of his conscience. Then in the course of time he decides to change course by sending a flood. The guy who is trying to do the right thing must respond to the words that God spoke to live. And Noah did.

We are no different. God has spoken. We must follow the dictates of what he has said if we are to live. The ark is prepared. We climb inside. We are saved from the wrath of God. Simple. Live by every word that comes out of his mouth. Amen.

please post from the bible the NC and the OC so we can compare

I have come to find that most christians dont know the OC and NC even though it is written

Please post so we can compare

The Old Covenant can be found in Ex 20-24. It begins with the Ten Commandments which God spoke unto them and is followed by the rest of the law. The last portion of the scripture in Ex 24 details the sealing of the covenant by the blood of the sacrifice being sprinkled on the book, the altar and the people.

The New Covenant isn't as easily laid out as the Old. But it was made possible by Israel rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Jn 1:11). The apostles were instructed to go out into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe all things Jesus had commanded them (Mt 28:19). They would have understood this to be Jews only as it wasn't revealed to them yet about the gentiles. Paul would later be selected as the apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21). He delivered the gospel to the people (1 Cor 15:3-11). Upon hearing the gospel one must believe and repent (Acts 26:20). One must continue then in the faith (1 Cor 13:5) that is justified by works (James 2:24) of obedience to Christ (Heb 5:9) until Jesus returns or death occurs.

Jesus told us to keep the commandments

Jesus told us to keep his commandments

keeping the sabbath is keeping the commandments

Keeping the old commandments, yes. But we are not under them.

I am not saying that we are not under any Sabbath. Just not the one of the Old Covenant. To understand the New Covenant Sabbath, I suggest reading Heb 4. It is much more exclusive than the old one.

John 14:15[/COLOR]
If ye love me, keep my commandments

He said "my" commandments.

is the blood of Jesus something knew or something old

was Noah under the blood of Jesus, we can read that Noah was under grace which is the blood of Jesus

Genesis 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Agreed. Abel needed the blood of Jesus. As did everyone who ever lived except Jesus.

and the blood of Jesus was here from the foundation of the world

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Amen

and what is our end? what must we do?

Acts 2:40[/COLOR]
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Acts 2:40 in the KJV is translated inaccurately. "Save yourselves" is taken from a word in the Greek that is in the 'passive' voice. The passive voice denotes the subject of the sentence being acted upon by an outside source. He is actually saying "Be Saved", the NASB has this correct. Not really a good verse to talk about our part.

Ph 2:12 most excellent verse. Our part indeed! We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why should we think ourselves to be above Jesus? He made prayers to the one who was able to save him from death with strong crying and tears and was heard in that he feared. (Heb 5:7).

excellent point.


Have a great day serving our Lord.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Brother Ozell, thanks for the response.

Although a response to this post may be a bit off topic, I hope that you allow the intrusion, Gary.
I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.

It is my pleasure to be active with brothers in Christ working to build each other up.

This is a fabulous and loving goal. I appreciate that brothers discuss these things in Messiah-like ways.

First this verse should be translated 'through the faith'. To say 'we establish the law' isn't saying that through faith everyone is brought under the law. It is only saying that the law was not abolished by faith. Those who were under law had to take it by faith in order to have the righteousness of God imputed unto them.

I agree with this understanding. We are not made righteous by any keeping of Torah. Romans 10 is proof enough of this.

We both agree. Works are required. I believe the difference is that we do not agree exactly what those works must be. They are not the works of the law or the Ten Commandments.

This is where a divergence in thought begins. I see no direct statement by Messiah that there is a disavowal of the Ten Commands or of any portion of the Law, save those dealing specifically with punishment. Messiah endured our punishment to satisfy the sacrificial system's rulings on the lives of those who cling to YHWH. Hebrews author clearly discusses this throughout the letter: the Levitical priesthood is now unnecessary for the believer as the order of Melchizedek Establishes a new priesthood.

2 Cor 3-7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

I believe this to be a clear discussion on the priesthood. As I said earlier, the priesthood changed, that is the subject matter that the letter to the Hebrews seeks to clarify. Even at that, it is a kol v'chomer (good and greater-Paul uses the phrase 'how much more' to qualify his point) argument and must be seen in that light.

If we take another route and say the subject in 2 Corinthians is about the "OC" and "NC", we have to start discussing what the New included and did not include. Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah seem to indicate that the statutes that govern the lives of Israel remain in the New while some sort of remedy for sin is added, creating a brand new way to live for Him.

The Greek word translated 'done away' is the same Greek word used above in Rom 3:31 for 'make void'. Although the law was not done away with through faith it was in fact done away with. It was done away with or replaced if you will by the ministration of the spirit.

This is illogical. You can not make the point that the Law was not done away with and in the same paragraph, claim that it really was. There must be another way to interpret Paul's words. I think the above interpretation suits the issue well.

This is not to say that the law isn't good. It was perfect for the Old Covenant with Israel as God prepared the way for Christ to come. And then the New Covenant which does not include the law. I will address this later on in the post.

I will wait to respond until the later address.

This verse does not constitute reason to believe that a person who is sinning willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth should have any hope (Heb 10:26) even if they repent. Counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing is something that God will judge (Heb 10:29-31). Nor to one who has 'fallen away' (Heb 6). The only hope one has is entering into a Covenant relationship with God through Christ and keeping the covenant.

I agree with your summation, once again, but you've created for yourself more technical jargon that, when unpacked, contradicts what you've said elsewhere. Keeping a covenant relationship with YHWH is clearly understood to be the hallmark of the believer. Isaiah 56 clearly established that the marker in one's life (or the fruit, since Ozell used James earlier) is the keeping of the Sabbath. There is no mincing of words. It tells us any who are to follow Him, will keep the commands and honor the Sabbath. Whether or not the Sabbath has been changed, which it hasn't, is not the reason for bringing it up. It is, instead, the importance in the life of the believer.

This is merely a hypothetical that John is stating to 'his children' and does not denote whether the sin is willful or otherwise. I let scripture interpret scripture and believe that Heb 6 and Heb 10 limit the scope of this verse to those who are not willfully sinning.

These verses speak of someone who turns away from God. Of course they die. That doesn't give hope to anyone. You cannot say that the reverse is true simply because this is stated this way.

Agreed, again. Excellent insight.

That is correct brother. But that doesn't change the fact that Paul said that we can be so confident that we would actually desire to depart and be with Christ. This kind of confidence comes from knowing you are saved. We are saved by hope. My hope is in a God who cannot lie. He promised me eternal life if I serve him.

Although, I'm sure you meant to say that you are saved by Messiah (He is your definition for hope?), I thought clarification will be help illuminate the response's unclear diction.

Each individual can certainly know his outcome before hand. They just need to base it off of obedience to Jesus, which is being in the faith. I can have boldness in the day of judgment if I walk as he walked (1 jn 4:17).

I know quite a few people who didn't know this prior to discussions with me, so I'll ask to be clear: you do know He was Jewish? I only ask because our declaration about 'walking as He walked' could be detrimental to some of your positions.

yes hope. I hope to receive a paycheck this week. The probability is that I will. I hope to wake up tomorrow. Most likely I will. I hope my car will start tomorrow. It usually does. All of these things depend upon something outside of myself to happen, yet they do. My hope is confirmed. With salvation my hope is in a God who cannot lie who promised. Why should I doubt in the least?

Great comparisons.

You're* assuming he meant the Ten Commandments. Which is an understandable error. If he meant the Ten Commandments, he would not have had it written in 2 Cor that the glory of them would be done away with and replaced by the ministration of the spirit.

This is easily answered by understanding the place of the priesthood and what is included in the 'NC'. The Ten Commands are certainly part of the 'rules for relationship' that YHWH gives and have not been disavowed directly or indirectly by Him who gave them or by any servant. As Jews, if there was any deviation from proper teaching and interpretation of Torah, the perpetrator would be cast out...this obviously includes the followers of the Way as they were a small sect within Judaism at that point.

Jesus taught and commanded many things while he was here. I know there are verses that make it seem like he was commanding to keep the Ten Commandments but these verses are to Jews under the Old Covenant. They were under the law just like Jesus.

I'm not sure how to tackle this part of the response.... Your wild assumptions are so far from the norm of biblical scholarship I'd feel it necessary to ask if you were serious and at the risk of sounding rude, which I do not intend to be, are you serious? Where do you find that Jesus said the opposite? Where does He discredit the Law and it's following? Do you understand that this type of tacking would eliminate His Messiahship because of apostasy and heresy?
If He was under the Law, which you and I both believe Him to be, He was to maintain complete obedience to it and that includes All of His teachings being pro-Torah.

Great call! See how these verses show a distinction between the Father's commandments and Jesus's?

there should be no distinction between what Messiah teaches and what YHWH said. If there is, we have a serious problem.

Amen brother. Sometimes God is doing something a certain way like allowing man to live by the dictates of his conscience. Then in the course of time he decides to change course by sending a flood. The guy who is trying to do the right thing must respond to the words that God spoke to live. And Noah did.

We are no different. God has spoken. We must follow the dictates of what he has said if we are to live. The ark is prepared. We climb inside. We are saved from the wrath of God. Simple. Live by every word that comes out of his mouth. Amen.

Again, I find blaring contradictions in your response. If we live by every word, do you realize that means Torah? And I know your analogy about Noah is meant to serve to simplify the life of a believer, but I believe you might be clouding it. The flood does not Eliminate what the Father has commanded.

The Old Covenant can be found in Ex 20-24. It begins with the Ten Commandments which God spoke unto them and is followed by the rest of the law. The last portion of the scripture in Ex 24 details the sealing of the covenant by the blood of the sacrifice being sprinkled on the book, the altar and the people.

I would also make sure to check out Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. In fact, chapter 30 of Deuteronomy even goes so far as to say that He gives us the choice between death and life with the lynchpin being faith and then action in living out Torah.

The New Covenant isn't as easily laid out as the Old. But it was made possible by Israel rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Jn 1:11). The apostles were instructed to go out into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe all things Jesus had commanded them (Mt 28:19).

Coincidentally, Matthew 5.17 clearly says that Messiah taught Torah as He did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

They would have understood this to be Jews only as it wasn't revealed to them yet about the gentiles.

I'm not sure about this. I point again to passages like Isaiah 56 as proof positive for gentile inclusion far before Messiah.

Paul would later be selected as the apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21). He delivered the gospel to the people (1 Cor 15:3-11).

I believe that Paul is the logical option to send to the Gentiles who have just entered into a Jewish sect; he was one of the most learned men in Israel at the time. His expositions on Tanach passages still rival any writing or speaking from today or from the historical canon. If anyone could teach new believers about life in Messiah, it would be Him. I believe that's why he would go and stay with congregations for months in order to set them straight on the function and application of Torah; something he continue doing well after he left, as his letters indicate.

Upon hearing the gospel one must believe and repent (Acts 26:20). One must continue then in the faith (1 Cor 13:5) that is justified by works (James 2:24) of obedience to Christ (Heb 5:9) until Jesus returns or death occurs.

Works and fruit are synonymous in Jewish vernacular as Torah commands lived out. I need continue to make my point as you have made it for me in the finest way.

Jesus told us to keep his commandments

Indeed. If He and the Father are one, I can only conclude that His commands are Torah. If we must take a different route, let us journey to John 1 and see His role as the Word of God-He is the very commands themselves, lived out bodily- the fullness of the Deity!

Keeping the old commandments, yes. But we are not under them.

I'm confused by this.

I am not saying that we are not under any Sabbath. Just not the one of the Old Covenant. To understand the New Covenant Sabbath, I suggest reading Heb 4. It is much more exclusive than the old one.

Our rest is Messiah. I understand this, but I don't think we are told not to rest in the physical Rest provided by the Sabbath. Messiah's rest is eternal.

He said "my" commandments.

This type of thing has already been discussed.

Agreed. Abel needed the blood of Jesus. As did everyone who ever lived except Jesus.


Amen.

Agreed.

Acts 2:40 in the KJV is translated inaccurately. "Save yourselves" is taken from a word in the Greek that is in the 'passive' voice. The passive voice denotes the subject of the sentence being acted upon by an outside source. He is actually saying "Be Saved", the NASB has this correct. Not really a good verse to talk about our part.

Ph 2:12 most excellent verse. Our part indeed! We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why should we think ourselves to be above Jesus? He made prayers to the one who was able to save him from death with strong crying and tears and was heard in that he feared. (Heb 5:7).

excellent point.

Agreed.


Have a great day serving our Lord.[/QUOTE]
I offer the same closing as you: have a wonderful day serving YHWH.

 

[RJ]

Although a response to this post may be a bit off topic, I hope that you allow the intrusion, Gary.
I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.



QUOTE]

I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.


I believe OSAS is Biblical but you will not find it literally as "you can't loose your salvation" or "once saved, always saved", it comes from the entire Bible in bits and pieces and what God has done for us through the New Covenant of "God in Us". Here are just a couple of Biblical references: ( if you would like to explain these as you understand them, that would be helpful)

• Jesus Teaches Nicodemas:

John 3:
<SUP>3</SUP> In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>”

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-26115 class=versenum>4</SUP> “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” <SUP id=en-NIV1984-26116 class=versenum>5</SUP> Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-26117 class=versenum>6</SUP> Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit.

I see nothing in the Bible or in life that once born of anything, that there is such a thing as being unborn!

• Hebrews 13:5

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30231 class=versenum>5</SUP> Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>

Once saved, once God in you, there is nothing in the Bible that says he will go back on his promise of never leaving you.

 

[ozell]

=my_little_pony;188494]Well, I think the point is, Jesus said not to do it. He gave his reasons for why he felt we should not do it.

where is it written where Jesus said not to call a person Sir, or Mr.

Are we able to hear Jesus give command and then obey it, even if it contradicts our traditions and understanding of respectability?

yes

it says call no man master, Father, rabbi, or reverend

we cannot add things to the bible or even claim Jesus meant something he did not say

And if not, then what's the point of being saved, or, do we really believe that God will be badgered into saving us because we know all the proof texts about salvation, and yet we didn't want to act on what Jesus told us to do?

Jesus said this about being saved

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

let act out on this first before we go and act on something he did not say

This is why I have been pushing for people to talk about what Jesus told us to do with life, as a means of working out what salvation is. It's not just being "saved". It is what we are being saved from.

I agree

what are we saved from?

Salvation includes being born again into a whole new set of values, totally different from the values of this world. Like the "call no man father" teaching.

true

yet this is written

but, sir, mr, mrs, is not

It's about viewing one another as brothers and sisters in Christ and God as our father. Special titles mostly only serve to divide people or lift people up with pride against one another. For example, is it really respect if an employer demands to be called "Mr" or "Sir"?

what about when men called other men lord, when sarah called Abraham lord, surely God should have checked Sarah for it.

 

[ozell]

We both agree. Works are required. I believe the difference is that we do not agree exactly what those works must be. They are not the works of the law or the Ten Commandments.

2 Cor 3-7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

if we broke a law what was the punishment?
if we kept the law what was the punishment?

what happemed to Moses when he was in the presence of the Lord?
because he committed no sin for 40 days what had happened to him being in the presence of the Lord?

People love to use these verses not understanding why Moses was changing.

is the commandments death or life? Paul told us this also.

Romans 7:10
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

The Greek word translated 'done away' is the same Greek word used above in Rom 3:31 for 'make void'. Although the law was not done away with through faith it was in fact done away with. It was done away with or replaced if you will by the ministration of the spirit. This is not to say that the law isn't good. It was perfect for the Old Covenant with Israel as God prepared the way for Christ to come. And then the New Covenant which does not include the law. I will address this later on in the post.

the commandments are spirit because they are the words of Jesus
lets read

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

every word Jesus speaks is spirit

This verse does not constitute reason to believe that a person who is sinning willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth should have any hope (Heb 10:26) even if they repent. Counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing is something that God will judge (Heb 10:29-31). Nor to one who has 'fallen away' (Heb 6). The only hope one has is entering into a Covenant relationship with God through Christ and keeping the covenant.

you are aware the commandments are a covenant.

Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Your assuming he meant the Ten Commandments. Which is an understandable error. If he meant the Ten Commandments, he would not have had it written in 2 Cor that the glory of them would be done away with and replaced by the ministration of the spirit. Jesus taught and commanded many things while he was here. I know there are verses that make it seem like he was commanding to keep the Ten Commandments but these verses are to Jews under the Old Covenant. They were under the law just like Jesus.

why is Paul telling these gentiles to keep the law?

Romans 13


<SUP id=en-KJV-28275 class=versenum>8</SUP>Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
<SUP id=en-KJV-28276 class=versenum>9</SUP>For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. <SUP id=en-KJV-28277 class=versenum>10</SUP>Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[ozell]

Although a response to this post may be a bit off topic, I hope that you allow the intrusion, Gary.
I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.



QUOTE]

I would like to admit that I am skeptical of any OSAS stance and do not believe it to be biblical. This is my contribution to the OP.


I believe OSAS is Biblical but you will not find it literally as "you can't loose your salvation" or "once saved, always saved", it comes from the entire Bible in bits and pieces and what God has done for us through the New Covenant of "God in Us". Here are just a couple of Biblical references: ( if you would like to explain these as you understand them, that would be helpful)

• Jesus Teaches Nicodemas:

John 3:
<SUP>3</SUP> In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>”

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-26115 class=versenum>4</SUP> “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” <SUP id=en-NIV1984-26116 class=versenum>5</SUP> Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-26117 class=versenum>6</SUP> Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit.

I see nothing in the Bible or in life that once born of anything, that there is such a thing as being unborn!

• Hebrews 13:5

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-30231 class=versenum>5</SUP> Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you.”<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>

Once saved, once God in you, there is nothing in the Bible that says he will go back on his promise of never leaving you.

you were born once of a woman into the family of man
when did you cease to be born into anything other that the family of man?

answer the question Nicodemus asked Jesus

<SUP id=en-KJV-26125 class=versenum>4</SUP>Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

when did you go from mans family (flesh)to God's family(spirit) ?

 

[ozell]

Great call! See how these verses show a distinction between the Father's commandments and Jesus's?

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

The Old Covenant can be found in Ex 20-24. It begins with the Ten Commandments which God spoke unto them and is followed by the rest of the law. The last portion of the scripture in Ex 24 details the sealing of the covenant by the blood of the sacrifice being sprinkled on the book, the altar and the people.

The New Covenant isn't as easily laid out as the Old. But it was made possible by Israel rejecting Jesus as their Lord and Savior (Jn 1:11). The apostles were instructed to go out into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe all things Jesus had commanded them (Mt 28:19). They would have understood this to be Jews only as it wasn't revealed to them yet about the gentiles. Paul would later be selected as the apostle to the Gentiles (Acts 22:21). He delivered the gospel to the people (1 Cor 15:3-11). Upon hearing the gospel one must believe and repent (Acts 26:20). One must continue then in the faith (1 Cor 13:5) that is justified by works (James 2:24) of obedience to Christ (Heb 5:9) until Jesus returns or death occurs.

the Old and New covenant are the same omnly one difference

the blood

old had animals blood
New has Jesus blood

they both have the same laws.

Jesus told us to keep his commandments

which are the commandments in Exodus 20

Keeping the old commandments, yes. But we are not under them.

are you saying we are not under

Exodus 20


<SUP id=en-KJV-2053 class=versenum>1</SUP>And God spake all these words, saying,
<SUP id=en-KJV-2054 class=versenum>2</SUP>I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2055 class=versenum>3</SUP>Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2056 class=versenum>4</SUP>Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2057 class=versenum>5</SUP>Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
<SUP id=en-KJV-2058 class=versenum>6</SUP>And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2059 class=versenum>7</SUP>Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2060 class=versenum>8</SUP>Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2064 class=versenum>12</SUP>Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2065 class=versenum>13</SUP>Thou shalt not kill.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2066 class=versenum>14</SUP>Thou shalt not commit adultery.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2067 class=versenum>15</SUP>Thou shalt not steal.
<SUP id=en-KJV-2068 class=versenum>16</SUP>Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. <SUP id=en-KJV-2069 class=versenum>17</SUP>Thou shalt not covet

tell which one of these you are not under and which one you cannot keep?

 

[my_little_pony]

Hi Ozell,

Thanks for those responses.

it says call no man master, Father, rabbi, or reverend

we cannot add things to the bible or even claim Jesus meant something he did not say

The word "Sir" is a shortened form of "sire" which literally means father. Although the literal alphabetical words for "father" and "Sir" are different, the MEANING is very much the same.

I think you will have a very difficult time (along with losing a fair bit of credibility) trying to argue a technicality on the basis of which letters of the alphabet are used to make up words describing the same meaning.

The same is true for "Mr." It is a shortened form of "master".

let act out on this first before we go and act on something he did not say

But, he DID say it.

what are we saved from?

I suppose there could be a thousand different answers to this question, and, in the eyes of God, each and every one of them could be right if God feels those answers are sincere.

The point *I* am trying to make is about what Jesus described as the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. There is a REASON why he forbid us from indulging these special titles for one another. It's similar to why he told us to beware of authorities in long robes who love positions of importance.

true

yet this is written

but, sir, mr, mrs, is not

Sure, in the strictest, most legalistic, hardcore adherence to the letters of the alphabet which are printed on the pages of the KJV I got these teachings form, you are correct. The words containing the letters, and ONLY the letters "Sir" and "Mr." are not found in the verses I presented.

But then again, are we really interested in the spirit of what Jesus was teaching, or the exact translation into the English alphabetical letters of the words used to express his teachings at the time those teachings were recorded?

Don't disappoint me, Ozell.

what about when men called other men lord, when sarah called Abraham lord, surely God should have checked Sarah for it.

Hey, if Abraham, or Sarah, or those other men, whoever they may be, are you lord and savior, then by all means, trust in their example. (surely, Ozell, you had to see that coming...)

Anyway, as for me, *I* want to talk about what Jesus said to do.

 

[Peace Seeker]

We just like to think that they are wrong and only we know how to interpret the Scriptures properly. What a sad way to show love to fellow believers. Please stop and rethink about what you are saved for. For sure the Lord didn't save us just so we can bicker about who is right and who is wrong.

I couldn't agree more! I think God gives all of us different amounts and kinds of wisdom, knowledge, etc. (the parable of the talents) from the Holy Spirit, all in His good time and according to His good pleasure. And the one who receives more should not feel better than the other, as that would be boasting, which God disapproves of.

We should be humbled before our Lord. I have nothing that the Lord has not given to me, so what do I have to be proud of or to boast of? I am thankful that God has given us teachers - those that are mature in Christ - on this forum and elsewhere, and I pray that one day God will make me all that He desires me to be, to His glory.

Until that day I will just rest in His wonderful saving grace and try not to judge or be contentious with another believer, just because he may not be at the same place spiritually as someone else, or is having a hard time understanding something.

We've all been there.

The whole law is summed up in LOVE. Jesus is LOVE, so let us love one another as He so loves us!

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Jonahofakron....it is a pleasure to meet you. I must admit that I am by no means a master theologian. Nor do I make myself crystal clear. There are many times that I come back to something I wrote and think 'what'? Please bear with me as I try to articulate my thoughts.

I don't have a lot of experience with Christians who believe that we are to live out the Torah. It is an interesting concept but one that I never got the impression of while reading scripture.

You have intrigued me by your comments and questions. I need to take some time and re-evaluate my current position. I am currently somewhat confused. But this is good. Clarity is the end result and growth. If we are to observe the 10 commandments including the Sabbath then I need better understanding concerning certain scriptures. Please help me.

Your position is that 2 Cor 3 is pertaining to the priesthood. I can't see that. All I see is the replacement of the commandments with the ministration of the spirit which brings true righteousness.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What ordinances is he talking of here?
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

How do you interpret this? What does he mean by no letting anyone judge me in respect to the Sabbath?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

And why weren't the Ten Commandments included in this letter to the Gentiles? This was about keeping the law and the Gentiles. I know Paul went on in Romans to name 5 of the commandments as examples of loving our neighbor but Paul was involved in the writing of this letter to those he were an Apostle to.

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Your arguments about Jesus and what he taught were definitely thought provoking but many questions linger about scripture that seemingly opposes the idea that we are obligated to the Ten Commandments because of NC teaching concerning the Sabbath.

In Isaiah God is definitely passionate about his Sabbaths. But again this is about the OC as it speaks of burnt offerings. Are you doing sacrifices and burnt offerings too? I highly doubt it but I have to ask.




Ozell, I haven't forgot about you. I did want to add that I have thought about your position on 'being saved' and I think that we hold much of the same belief. I agree with you that no one can know absolutely for sure until judgement day. The question has to be answered "Did my works justify my faith?". "Do I really believe what I say I do?" We can deceive our own selves.

BTW are you in Chicago?

I hope you have a wonderful day.

Gary

 

[JonahofAkron]

Hi Jonahofakron....it is a pleasure to meet you. I must admit that I am by no means a master theologian. Nor do I make myself crystal clear. There are many times that I come back to something I wrote and think 'what'? Please bear with me as I try to articulate my thoughts.

I completely understand. I, too, have to articulate to the best of my ability as I am not on the level of many of the posters in this forum.

I don't have a lot of experience with Christians who believe that we are to live out the Torah. It is an interesting concept but one that I never got the impression of while reading scripture.

Not to worry. We don't bite.

You have intrigued me by your comments and questions. I need to take some time and re-evaluate my current position. I am currently somewhat confused. But this is good. Clarity is the end result and growth. If we are to observe the 10 commandments including the Sabbath then I need better understanding concerning certain scriptures. Please help me.

Your position is truly that of wisdom and I hope to emulate your stance as we continue in this dialogue. Thank you for your candid nature.

Your position is that 2 Cor 3 is pertaining to the priesthood. I can't see that. All I see is the replacement of the commandments with the ministration of the spirit which brings true righteousness.

I apologize for not being specific enough. Your misunderstanding about my position is entirely my fault. I was speaking in a relaxed manner that did not fully articulate the point I wanted to make. Let me try again.

The point in both Hebrews and 2 Corinthians 3 is the effect of Messiah's substituted death penalty for the believer. The veil and the countenance of Moses are the primary points of contention here.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

The story to read for context is Moses' descent from Mt. Sinai. He hides his face from the people in Exodus 34 because it shines, reflecting the glory of the lord; this was not to be permanent. It eventually faded because Moses was a sinful man like all of us. The reason for the fading of his shining face is the fact that sin and it's punishment, death, separate us from YHWH.

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Even though Moses can reflect the glory of God in spite of his sinfulness, how much more will the shining of believers be glorious when Messiah takes our sin from us?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Exactly what I just said. This is associated with believers in Messiah.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

Moses' face, though reflecting God's glory, was not originally this way: it is God that made it shine.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Permanent reflection of Him is what remains because of the Spirit.

What ordinances is he talking of here?
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

As far as I understand the Greek, the phrase is actually handwriting of charges-as in 'list of sins'....I'm certain this is the point of the text and a necessary one at that.

How do you interpret this? What does he mean by no letting anyone judge me in respect to the Sabbath?

Writing to a community that is living in the midst of pagans, it seems far more plausible to believe Paul is telling this congregation to act in accordance with Messiah, not worrying about the fact that the practices of the community run counter to those of Messiah.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

If the point is righteous living, the Torah is the standard and always has been.

And why weren't the Ten Commandments included in this letter to the Gentiles? This was about keeping the law and the Gentiles. I know Paul went on in Romans to name 5 of the commandments as examples of loving our neighbor but Paul was involved in the writing of this letter to those he were an Apostle to.

Why would he need to include something that is already known to the believers? I see no reason to believe that the absence of the commands is because they are not in use. It is the opposite.

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

We should also look at the reason why this is written. The context is the Gentile believers being allowed into the Body of Messiah and the logistics of entry. Judaizers say that following the whole Torah and ritual circumcision (not just physical circumcision, but a sacrifice and baptism-showing conclusively that, since they do this upon believing [accepting Messiah's sacrifice is a twofold action of sacrificial fulfillment and circumcision of the heart], they shouldn't be made to do it again) is what one needs for salvation because it 'ensures' entry into Israel. Fortunately, this isn't how Israel was to operate and is not how Messiah operates-it has always been faith. Entrance into Israel has always been contingent on the circumcision of the heart.

The things that Jacob and the elders ask of the Gentiles is only what is necessary for congregating with other believers, as 'Moses is taught in the synagogues every Sabbath'.

Your arguments about Jesus and what he taught were definitely thought provoking but many questions linger about scripture that seemingly opposes the idea that we are obligated to the Ten Commandments because of NC teaching concerning the Sabbath.

What is this teaching?

In Isaiah God is definitely passionate about his Sabbaths. But again this is about the OC as it speaks of burnt offerings. Are you doing sacrifices and burnt offerings too? I highly doubt it but I have to ask.

Isaiah discusses a future redemption coming and then goes on to say that Sabbaths are to be kept. I cannot see how we take it in any other way. Perhaps I've misread the issue. I will study it again to make sure that I completely understand the context.

And, no, I do not offer burnt sacrifices. It isn't practiced without a temple or ark with the mercy seat. Paul and Jesus both partook in feasts and the sacrificial system.

It is a pleasure to discuss with you. Let me know what you think. I will probably move some of this to another thread.

 

[ozell]

I couldn't agree more! I think God gives all of us different amounts and kinds of wisdom, knowledge, etc. (the parable of the talents) from the Holy Spirit, all in His good time and according to His good pleasure. And the one who receives more should not feel better than the other, as that would be boasting, which God disapproves of.

We should be humbled before our Lord. I have nothing that the Lord has not given to me, so what do I have to be proud of or to boast of? I am thankful that God has given us teachers - those that are mature in Christ - on this forum and elsewhere, and I pray that one day God will make me all that He desires me to be, to His glory.

Until that day I will just rest in His wonderful saving grace and try not to judge or be contentious with another believer, just because he may not be at the same place spiritually as someone else, or is having a hard time understanding something.

We've all been there.

The whole law is summed up in LOVE. Jesus is LOVE, so let us love one another as He so loves us!

I don't think anyone here hate anyone.

love is keeping the commandments

we all read the same bible so we all should have the same wisdom and knowledge which comes from the same God.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

God is not a respector of people

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

 

[ozell]

Ozell, I haven't forgot about you. I did want to add that I have thought about your position on 'being saved' and I think that we hold much of the same belief. I agree with you that no one can know absolutely for sure until judgement day. The question has to be answered "Did my works justify my faith?". "Do I really believe what I say I do?" We can deceive our own selves.

No problem Brother

if we beleive in Jesus we will do what he says

Jesus said this

Matthew 19:15-17


<SUP id=en-KJV-23778 class=versenum>15</SUP>And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23779 class=versenum>16</SUP>And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? <SUP id=en-KJV-23780 class=versenum>17</SUP>And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Brother Gary

the young rich man is already alive yet he was seeking another life , life eternal. and the Lord said to him to keep the commandments.

Keeping the commandments will get a person eternal life.

Jesus can't lie so this saying must be true, that's if we beleive in the words , every words of Jesus.

peace in Jesus

 

[ozell]

Hi Ozell,

Thanks for those responses.



The word "Sir" is a shortened form of "sire" which literally means father. Although the literal alphabetical words for "father" and "Sir" are different, the MEANING is very much the same.

I think you will have a very difficult time (along with losing a fair bit of credibility) trying to argue a technicality on the basis of which letters of the alphabet are used to make up words describing the same meaning.

The same is true for "Mr." It is a shortened form of "master".



But, he DID say it.


I suppose there could be a thousand different answers to this question, and, in the eyes of God, each and every one of them could be right if God feels those answers are sincere.

The point *I* am trying to make is about what Jesus described as the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. There is a REASON why he forbid us from indulging these special titles for one another. It's similar to why he told us to beware of authorities in long robes who love positions of importance.



Sure, in the strictest, most legalistic, hardcore adherence to the letters of the alphabet which are printed on the pages of the KJV I got these teachings form, you are correct. The words containing the letters, and ONLY the letters "Sir" and "Mr." are not found in the verses I presented.

But then again, are we really interested in the spirit of what Jesus was teaching, or the exact translation into the English alphabetical letters of the words used to express his teachings at the time those teachings were recorded?

Don't disappoint me, Ozell.



Hey, if Abraham, or Sarah, or those other men, whoever they may be, are you lord and savior, then by all means, trust in their example. (surely, Ozell, you had to see that coming...)

Anyway, as for me, *I* want to talk about what Jesus said to do.

this is something I will look into, but keep in mind that in the USA when you call a person MR, MRS, SIR, MAAM, it is not looked upon as the same as master.

anyway the Lord knows the intent of the heart.

next

the slaves had to call there overseers Master
the Roman Catholic call there spiritual leader Father
the Jews call there spiritual leader rabbi (master)
and the protestants call there spiritual leader reverend

is it possible that the Lord is speaking on a spiritual level.

 

[ozell]

<SUP>Luke 13

</SUP><SUP>24</SUP>Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

to strive is to put forth some kind of effort, some kind of work.

what must I do to enter in at the strait gate?

what is the strait gate?