Are you really saved?

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 8, 2011

Your response is to use words like "believe" and "walk". But again, what do they mean?

Jesus used those words to.
Jesus said that we would do greater works than he did.
That would be a sign that a human has understood the message of Christ and believed.
Believing would consist of seeing the word of God as truth even if my five senses and intellect and time tells me I'm wrong.So believing would be agreeing with the word and seeing everything from the words point of view.
Example:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Abraham was seeing from the word's point of view.

Walking would consist of consistent belief.Regardless of whether it ever manifests in your life or not.Making decisions and acting on them based on evidence that may not be apparent to those around you.Walking then would be bringing an out of time concept into time.
Example:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
The Jews correctly pointed out that Abraham was dead long before Jesus was born.The Jews did not understand the walking out of faith in Abraham's life and the effects that it caused out of time.

HOW do we apply words like that in a way that actually SHOWS something to the world around us, and is also consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

What would Abraham have offered as proof?
If someone from his time sat down with him for 100 hours he might be able to convince him why he believed as he did.
It would probably take a 1000 posts to tell you why I seek to believe as I do.

ozell · Nov 8, 2011

my_little_pony said:
I'm a bit surprized that Ozell hasn't hit me with 5 posts in a row!

ha...

Hey thiscrosshurts,

I kinda feel like the comments I made toward Ozell apply to what you've said here also.

Ozell talked about verses where the words "overcome" and "endure" are used and I asked him how he felt those words applied to the teachings of Jesus, in a practical way.

Your response is to use words like "believe" and "walk". But again, what do they mean? HOW do we apply words like that in a way that actually SHOWS something to the world around us, and is also consistent with the teachings of Jesus?

Phrases like "washed in the blood", "spirit filled", "Bible believing", "personal relationship", "relying on him", etc, etc, etc all become in-group out-group jargon unless we have some way of relating it back to what Jesus actually told us to do with life.

you know I will.

I worked some ot the past few days and I trying to get back in groove.

what is washed in Jesus blood>

what spirit are we or they filled with?

I can't find personal relationship or personal saviour in the bible etc etc etc

the best way to serve Jesus is obeying what he say.

Jesus had written

Matthew 15:


8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

so much for lip service when will action kick in?

ozell · Nov 8, 2011

=Thiscrosshurts;188064]I said flesh and bone not flesh and blood.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

same thing

There is no proof but tradition has it that he was beheaded in Rome.

and since it cant be proven its a lie

Yes,that new way of thinking is death to sin in the flesh.We can die while still in the body.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Cor.15:51 tells me sleep or death of the body is not a prerequisite to be changed.

all men die the first death, the new man is trying to overcome the 2nd death

This does not make any sense to me.

As far as I can see I would need to strip out lots of scripture to hold your position.If your position is correct then it's all up to man to save himself by enduring to the end of the tribulation.

we are told to save ourself from this untoward generation

Acts 2:40
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

ey were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible

This verse tells me that believing that Jesus is the son of God IS overcoming the world.

and this verse tell me that not everyone who say they beleives in Jesus
don't

Romans 10

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

before a person can have faith you have the hear about Jesus.

We can walk in this new life now or spend every minute worried and repenting about being human.

what new life are we to walk in?

and why not worry about your fellow man?

God does.

ozell · Nov 8, 2011

Thiscrosshurts said:
Jesus used those words to.
Jesus said that we would do greater works than he did.
That would be a sign that a human has understood the message of Christ and believed.
Believing would consist of seeing the word of God as truth even if my five senses and intellect and time tells me I'm wrong.So believing would be agreeing with the word and seeing everything from the words point of view.
Example:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Abraham was seeing from the word's point of view.

Walking would consist of consistent belief.Regardless of whether it ever manifests in your life or not.Making decisions and acting on them based on evidence that may not be apparent to those around you.Walking then would be bringing an out of time concept into time.
Example:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
The Jews correctly pointed out that Abraham was dead long before Jesus was born.The Jews did not understand the walking out of faith in Abraham's life and the effects that it caused out of time.

What would Abraham have offered as proof?
If someone from his time sat down with him for 100 hours he might be able to convince him why he believed as he did.
It would probably take a 1000 posts to tell you why I seek to believe as I do.

what do you beleive in about Jesus?

belief is merely faith and Paul said fiath is this

so what and why do you beleive in Jesus?

we are told to walk as Jesus walked

Jesus kept the commandments
Jesus was circumcised
Jesus custom was to keep the sabbath day
Jesus kept the feast days

all these ways the Lord walked the denominations and christians of todaycringe at and don't keep.

Deuteronomy 8:6
Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him

Deuteronomy 26:17
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Colossians 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+2:5-7&version=KJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+26:16-18&version=KJV

my_little_pony · Nov 8, 2011

If someone from his time sat down with him for 100 hours he might be able to convince him why he believed as he did.
It would probably take a 1000 posts to tell you why I seek to believe as I do.

Trust, ozell, I really don't want a thousands posts from you. Nor was I asking for a convincing lecture on why you believe what you do.

I asked for some examples of how what you believe coincides with what Jesus told his followers to do; practical examples. So far all you've given are bible reference after bible reference and threats of deluging this thread with thousands of posts...

and since it cant be proven its a lie

This really is NOT logic, ozell. Why is it so offensive to you for someone to suggest that Paul was beheaded in Rome?

Can you prove that he was not beheaded in Rome? Does that mean you are the liar? It really does seem like a statement that does not promote genuine discussion.

Is there anything else you cannot prove in this life, and does that make all those issues a lie? My mind boggles...

RJ · Nov 8, 2011

my_little_pony said:
Trust, ozell, I really don't want a thousands posts from you. Nor was I asking for a convincing lecture on why you believe what you do.

I asked for some examples of how what you believe coincides with what Jesus told his followers to do; practical examples. So far all you've given are bible reference after bible reference and threats of deluging this thread with thousands of posts...

This really is NOT logic, ozell. Why is it so offensive to you for someone to suggest that Paul was beheaded in Rome?

Can you prove that he was not beheaded in Rome? Does that mean you are the liar? It really does seem like a statement that does not promote genuine discussion.

Is there anything else you cannot prove in this life, and does that make all those issues a lie? My mind boggles...

I guess ozell would really be upset to know that Peter was crucified upside down!

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 8, 2011

I asked for some examples of how what you believe coincides with what Jesus told his followers to do; practical examples. So far all you've given are bible reference after bible reference and threats of deluging this thread with thousands of posts...

I am attempting to do the same thing Abraham did.
Believe in or see "his day".
Deluge?Threats? Ouch....

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 8, 2011

what do you beleive in about Jesus?

I believe what the Bible tells me.
He is the Word,the Day,the truth,the light,the way,the resurrection,the life,the lamb,the seed of the woman,king of kings,mighty counselor etc.....In him we live and move and have our being.
He is the "Day of the Lord" a day without night.
He is not stuck in night and day cycles,or cycles of day night cycles,he is Lord of Time and times.Jesus is the last or sabbath day.

The more I study the more questions I have so I continually seek to gain understanding.I don't have any doctrine to push only questions.

Why?Short story-science required to much faith.

we are told to walk as Jesus walked

Jesus kept the commandments
Jesus was circumcised
Jesus custom was to keep the sabbath day
Jesus kept the feast days

Yes,before his resurrection,you would have to discount the apostles instruction that no Gentile would be forced to follow those laws,that those laws were a sign of a better covenant.
The fulfillment of those laws was about a loving heart changed by God which rests in the finished work of Jesus.

what new life are we to walk in?

The new life created in Christ when he raised us up with Jesus.
Paul tells us to put on the new man.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

my_little_pony · Nov 9, 2011

I am attempting to do the same thing Abraham did. Believe in or see "his day". Deluge?Threats? Ouch....

Oh, I misremembered who I was addressing. I thought it was Ozell who was threatening me with thousands of posts! Because he is in the habit of making lots of consecutive posts, I thought the comment was more appropriate for him. I'm really not sure where you are going with the whole "see his day" thing, but I notice that we are still talking about generalities whereas I was suggesting actual examples of what Jesus told his followers to do. You say,

TCH said:
Believing would consist of seeing the word of God as truth even if my five senses and intellect and time tells me I'm wrong.So believing would be agreeing with the word and seeing everything from the words point of view.

I believe this is an excellent way to view the teachings of Jesus and on this note I'd like to give an example teaching.

MT 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. MT 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. MT 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Here we have a fairly clear instruction about NOT using special titles for one another, on the basis that we are all brothers/sisters in Christ and that these special titles should be reserved for God. In particular, two of the titles mentioned are "father" and "master". The word "Sir" is a shortened form of "Sire" and means father. The word "Mr." is a shortened form of master. But the words "Sir" and "Mr." are practically requirements in today's world. Here is a situation where your desire to "see his day" could possibly be expressed in a practical way. How do you see it?

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 9, 2011

Oh, I misremembered who I was addressing. I thought it was Ozell who was threatening me with thousands of posts!

Did Jesus tell us to be demeaning and sarcastic to other believers or anybody?

my_little_pony · Nov 9, 2011

Hi TCH. I'm willing to discuss your concerns about sarcasm and demeaning comments, but I'd appreciate it if we could do that privately or on a separate thread, so as not to derail the topic of this thread. Is that okay?

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

my_little_pony;188130]Trust, ozell, I really don't want a thousands posts from you. Nor was I asking for a convincing lecture on why you believe what you do.

I asked for some examples of how what you believe coincides with what Jesus told his followers to do; practical examples. So far all you've given are bible reference after bible reference and threats of deluging this thread with thousands of posts...

I gave you what you asked for according to the bible. Do you have a problem with the verses I gave?

This really is NOT logic, ozell. Why is it so offensive to you for someone to suggest that Paul was beheaded in Rome?

Can you prove that he was not beheaded in Rome? Does that mean you are the liar? It really does seem like a statement that does not promote genuine discussion.

2 Timothy 4

6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


Is there anything else you cannot prove in this life, and does that make all those issues a lie? My mind boggles

I'm proving that we are not saved now.

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

RJ said:
I guess ozell would really be upset to know that Peter was crucified upside down!

where is this written in God's word?

who told you this God, Man was it Peter?

or it this another fairy tale from the Roman Catholic church in which the Protestants also believe

where is it written that Peter was in Rome?

why should Peter go to Rome?

it was Paul's job to teach the gentiles.

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

Thiscrosshurts;188138]I believe what the Bible tells me.
He is the Word,the Day,the truth,the light,the way,the resurrection,the life,the lamb,the seed of the woman,king of kings,mighty counselor etc.....In him we live and move and have our being.
He is the "Day of the Lord" a day without night.
He is not stuck in night and day cycles,or cycles of day night cycles,he is Lord of Time and times.Jesus is the last or sabbath day

.

Yes T he is but I would come to you with these words
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

the hindu will say Krishna is, or the muslime will say the Mahdi is, or soemone will say Buddah is.

The more I study the more questions I have so I continually seek to gain understanding.I don't have any doctrine to push only questions.

finally a person who will ask question, this I admire
this is why I post subject like the one I have here.
the words I read from God's book don't line up with the teachings and practices this so-called christians claims.

Yes,before his resurrection,you would have to discount the apostles instruction that no Gentile would be forced to follow those laws,that those laws were a sign of a better covenant.
The fulfillment of those laws was about a loving heart changed by God which rests in the finished work of Jesus.

when is the word finished? Has Jesus come back to take down the nations?

Jesus said

John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The new life created in Christ when he raised us up with Jesus.
Paul tells us to put on the new man.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

when are we raised?
which heaven?

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

If we truly love God, then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Lets read something Paul said in Romans, that fly right over people heads.....(Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, not Titles, but Jesus name. And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past.

We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose.

That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time. So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because all have sinned, and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check.

Lets read these full verses....Lets go into Hebrews (v.18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. In other words, no more animals are going to die for your sins. (v.26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Now do we understand what’s being said here?

If you sin willfully after you have knowledge of what the truth is, no more animals are going to die for you. (v.27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now if you are being deceived into believing that once you are under God’s grace you no longer have to keep his commandments, all you have to look forward to is the day of judgement and the lake of fire (fiery indignation).

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

Is there anything else you cannot prove in this life, and does that make all those issues a lie? My mind boggles

lets read scriptures

lets read what I can prove just by reading God's word

Genesis 3

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I can prove that man dies.

here is another one I CAN PROVE by using the word of God

Genesis 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

man cannot live without the air(God's breath)

you want more I can bring it!!!:wink:

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

if you think you are saved

what are you saved from?

from what?

this is not a hard question.

what makes you think you are saved and a non-believer is not?

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

Jesus said

Now, Jesus said in Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Lets take a look at what Paul said in Acts 10:35 - But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Also in Acts 13:16 - Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. Where is the fear of God today? Where? 1 Peter 2:17 - Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

look what I have to do to be accepted by Jesus.

being saved is not one of them

ozell · Nov 10, 2011

my_little_pony said:
Hi TCH. I'm willing to discuss your concerns about sarcasm and demeaning comments, but I'd appreciate it if we could do that privately or on a separate thread, so as not to derail the topic of this thread. Is that okay?

why discuss it at all?

it should not be done!!!

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