brakelite
Member
Sorry David, this small contribution of yours has gone unnoticed, unread, unreplied to...... yes, she will pass the prophetic test, but what test are you sitting?
Were they right?
- Thread starter brakelite
- Start date
The papal system is part of the clergy/ laity system in which many of the churches in the christian religious institution propagate.
Do you believe that "the man of sin" is an actual person or just figurative of a type of people?
brakelite
Member
Hi Jiggy
I have mentioned before that Nebuchadnezzar was the representative of the entire empire, so also with the 'man of sin'. Below is an excerpt from a sermon by the renowned preacher and writer Puritan Thomas Manton in the 17th century. Charles Spurgeon testified to Mantons works as being “a mighty mountain of sound theology”
But because he is called the man of sin, here it cometh fitly to be inquired whether Antichrist be an individual person? for 'that man of sin' would seem to be some single person. No; he is put for a society and succession of men, that make up the head of the apostate state. As one lion figured the whole kingdom of the Babylonians, and one bear the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, and one leopard the kingdom of the Grecians, Dan. 7, — and there the fourth beast is the fourth kingdom, — so one person that succession of men that head the revolters from Christ. So Dan. 8, a goat figured a succession of kings; so the Assyrian, Isa. 10:5, several kings in that empire; so Isa. 14:9, the king of Babylon, meaning not one but many. So this man of sin doth not note a single man, but a succession of men, a body politic or corporate, under one opposite head to the kingdom of Christ: so the 'man of God' is put for all faithful ministers, 2 Tim. 3:17; so 'honour the king,' I Peter 2:17, series regum. So o arciereus, Heb. 9:25, 'The high priest every year entereth into the holy place;' meaning not one, but the succession of the order; and in reason it must needs be so here. Because Antichrist, from his beginning to his end, from his rise and revelation, till his ruin and destruction, will take up such a long track of time, as cannot fall within the age of any one man, even from the time of the apostles till the end of the world. Antichrist is the head of the apostasy; for here the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin are tied together; now the mysterious apostasy could not be perfected in a short time.
In this sermon, Manton, like many reformers before him, was applying the prophecy of 2 Thess. concerning the man of sin directly to the papal system.
The Antichrist is revealed to us through scripture in several different ways. In Daniel 2 he is the mixture of iron and clay. In Daniel 7 he is the little horn. In 2 Thess the man of sin and son of perdition, and in Revelation 13 the first beast.
I have mentioned before that Nebuchadnezzar was the representative of the entire empire, so also with the 'man of sin'. Below is an excerpt from a sermon by the renowned preacher and writer Puritan Thomas Manton in the 17th century. Charles Spurgeon testified to Mantons works as being “a mighty mountain of sound theology”
But because he is called the man of sin, here it cometh fitly to be inquired whether Antichrist be an individual person? for 'that man of sin' would seem to be some single person. No; he is put for a society and succession of men, that make up the head of the apostate state. As one lion figured the whole kingdom of the Babylonians, and one bear the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, and one leopard the kingdom of the Grecians, Dan. 7, — and there the fourth beast is the fourth kingdom, — so one person that succession of men that head the revolters from Christ. So Dan. 8, a goat figured a succession of kings; so the Assyrian, Isa. 10:5, several kings in that empire; so Isa. 14:9, the king of Babylon, meaning not one but many. So this man of sin doth not note a single man, but a succession of men, a body politic or corporate, under one opposite head to the kingdom of Christ: so the 'man of God' is put for all faithful ministers, 2 Tim. 3:17; so 'honour the king,' I Peter 2:17, series regum. So o arciereus, Heb. 9:25, 'The high priest every year entereth into the holy place;' meaning not one, but the succession of the order; and in reason it must needs be so here. Because Antichrist, from his beginning to his end, from his rise and revelation, till his ruin and destruction, will take up such a long track of time, as cannot fall within the age of any one man, even from the time of the apostles till the end of the world. Antichrist is the head of the apostasy; for here the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin are tied together; now the mysterious apostasy could not be perfected in a short time.
In this sermon, Manton, like many reformers before him, was applying the prophecy of 2 Thess. concerning the man of sin directly to the papal system.
So do you believe the man of sin is a person or figurative of a type of people?
brakelite
Member
Thankyou David, very encouraging when you know at least one person is reading the whole post. Yes Jiggy, I didn't quote him because I was disagreeing with him. In fact, several times now I have mentioned that the 'man of sin' applies to a succession of rulers or to the system which they rule over. Either way it means the same thing. Much the same way as when Jesus told the Pharisees that the miracles He was performing (or rather His Father was performing through Him) was a sign that the kingdom of God was amongst them...principally because Jesus was amongst them. They are synonymous.
happyharold4
Member
I've read every word in this thread also---Are the beast of Rev. 13:18 and the anti-Christ one and the same?? For it says that the 666 is the number of a man??
Happy
Happy
Sorry brakelite.
I am only a spectator on this thread.
So I thought I might try to speed it up a tad by encouraging jiggyfly to respond. Please accept my apology. I do enjoy reading some of your posts.
Personally, I doubt whether mankind has been right about anything.
As for the reformers and catholics more than likely both are in error.
Now, why am I thinking "why did I type that last line", I should know better than that by now.
I am only a spectator on this thread.
So I thought I might try to speed it up a tad by encouraging jiggyfly to respond. Please accept my apology. I do enjoy reading some of your posts.
Personally, I doubt whether mankind has been right about anything.
As for the reformers and catholics more than likely both are in error.
Now, why am I thinking "why did I type that last line", I should know better than that by now.
brakelite
Member
Just by way of reminder....
...though I would repeat a couple of things about the meaning of 'Antichrist'.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.
38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.
In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.
It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?
So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?
I think you all know the answer is yes.There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system
...though I would repeat a couple of things about the meaning of 'Antichrist'.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.
Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.
38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.
In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.
It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.
Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?
So how does Antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as Gods spokesman on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?
I think you all know the answer is yes.There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system
brakelite
Member
Hi. You are quite correct, 666 is certainly the number of a man. But notice that immediately before it says that it says that it is also the number of the beast. The beast in Revel. 13 is an amalgamation or composite of the beasts of Daniel 7, beasts all of which were/are empires or nations. The beast of Revel. 13 cannot be any different. When a symbol is expressly used in one context in scripture it doesn't change. Gods word is dependable, it doesn't switch from one meaning to another, for God is not out to confuse, but warn and inform. He is consistent.
Thus the synonymous meaning of 'man of sin' and 'beast' being the one and the same system remains constant throughout the scriptures.
I will at a later time go into more detail regarding Revelation 13, but first we must deal with Daniel, for it is Daniel who gives us the framework and foundation for understanding Revelation.
That said, I will add one other point regarding the number 666. Read carefully Revelation 13: 16-18. The number of his name, the name of the beast, and the mark, are all different things. The number, 666, is not the mark of the beast.
I will explain why later also.
Cheers.
Thanks for clarifying your position Brakelite, and in order to keep from derailing your thread I will give my opinion of "church reformation" and then leave the rest of you to the discuss the topic without any distractions from me.
My outlook on "church reformation" is simple, does Jesus' work need to be corrected? Does the body of Christ need rebuilt?
The church or ekklesia that Jesus is building should not be confused with what man has tried to carnally imitate.
The man-made christian religious institution which was devised to imitate the body of Christ, as a carnal counterfeit of the spiritual, will always be in need of reformation because of it's entity. These religious efforts are an attempt to keep self involved in what God the Father is doing in and through Christ. But God has excluded self and HolySpirit, the Superintendent of this project is working to eliminate self. So with that said, hopefully we can see the critical need for the ability to discern between self and Spirit and their works.
Selfish works should be abandoned and we should just submit to the works of the HolySpirit which will in turn bring about the spiritual reality of the body of Christ and it's entity with the evidence for all to see.
Does God use men to help build the body of Christ? I think not, because it is a spiritual work. But I do believe that God uses men to convey, explain and teach to those whom God has called, what exactly God is doing concerning this project of building the body of Christ so that they too, can submit. God does the work and we simply help others understand what God is doing.
One last thing, pointing out what is counterfeit, by and of itself is not really of any use in bringing understanding, it must be accompanied with a comparison of a correct understanding of the original. It is essential to understand the real body of Christ and the workings of the HolySpirit of which Father employs in order to identify any counterfeit.
My outlook on "church reformation" is simple, does Jesus' work need to be corrected? Does the body of Christ need rebuilt?
The church or ekklesia that Jesus is building should not be confused with what man has tried to carnally imitate.
The man-made christian religious institution which was devised to imitate the body of Christ, as a carnal counterfeit of the spiritual, will always be in need of reformation because of it's entity. These religious efforts are an attempt to keep self involved in what God the Father is doing in and through Christ. But God has excluded self and HolySpirit, the Superintendent of this project is working to eliminate self. So with that said, hopefully we can see the critical need for the ability to discern between self and Spirit and their works.
Selfish works should be abandoned and we should just submit to the works of the HolySpirit which will in turn bring about the spiritual reality of the body of Christ and it's entity with the evidence for all to see.
Does God use men to help build the body of Christ? I think not, because it is a spiritual work. But I do believe that God uses men to convey, explain and teach to those whom God has called, what exactly God is doing concerning this project of building the body of Christ so that they too, can submit. God does the work and we simply help others understand what God is doing.
One last thing, pointing out what is counterfeit, by and of itself is not really of any use in bringing understanding, it must be accompanied with a comparison of a correct understanding of the original. It is essential to understand the real body of Christ and the workings of the HolySpirit of which Father employs in order to identify any counterfeit.
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brakelite
Member
I think it a good time to summarize what I have so far discussed.
The early church fathers who were living in the time of the rule of the pagan Roman empire were all in expectation of the coming Antichrist or man of sin spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians. They knew through studying the prophecies of both Paul and Daniel that the Roman empire would break up into ten distinct kingdoms, three of which would be uprooted by the Antichrist power which event would be singularly powerful in identifying him.
Subsequent church leaders recognised this, and from the 6th century to the 19th, pointed unwaveringly to the papacy as the fulfilment of the prophecies.
In order to establish exactly why those students of the scriptures and leaders of the church came to their conclusions, conclusions I might add in which the vast majority were in agreement, I began a study on those significant prophecies which over the centuries have been used in establishing the identity of that much feared and mysterious entity known commonly as Antichrist. Beginning with 2 Thess 2 I continued with a short study on Daniel 2.
We have seen that history has been incredibly subservient to prophecy. Just as Daniel 2 revealed that there would be 4 major world empires reigning consecutively from the time of Daniel and the final enduring to the second coming, so has history born this out.
I mentioned early that Daniel 2 lays a foundation for understanding all subsequent prophecy; that later prophecy which deals with the same subject matter is merely an amplification or magnification of previous prophecy. Thus any interpretation of later prophecy which violates Daniel 2 cannot be accepted.
With these thoughts in mind, I would now like to offer in further posts a detailed study of Daniel 7 and 8, which study you will realise will be in perfect accord with Daniel 2.
The early church fathers who were living in the time of the rule of the pagan Roman empire were all in expectation of the coming Antichrist or man of sin spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians. They knew through studying the prophecies of both Paul and Daniel that the Roman empire would break up into ten distinct kingdoms, three of which would be uprooted by the Antichrist power which event would be singularly powerful in identifying him.
Subsequent church leaders recognised this, and from the 6th century to the 19th, pointed unwaveringly to the papacy as the fulfilment of the prophecies.
In order to establish exactly why those students of the scriptures and leaders of the church came to their conclusions, conclusions I might add in which the vast majority were in agreement, I began a study on those significant prophecies which over the centuries have been used in establishing the identity of that much feared and mysterious entity known commonly as Antichrist. Beginning with 2 Thess 2 I continued with a short study on Daniel 2.
We have seen that history has been incredibly subservient to prophecy. Just as Daniel 2 revealed that there would be 4 major world empires reigning consecutively from the time of Daniel and the final enduring to the second coming, so has history born this out.
I mentioned early that Daniel 2 lays a foundation for understanding all subsequent prophecy; that later prophecy which deals with the same subject matter is merely an amplification or magnification of previous prophecy. Thus any interpretation of later prophecy which violates Daniel 2 cannot be accepted.
With these thoughts in mind, I would now like to offer in further posts a detailed study of Daniel 7 and 8, which study you will realise will be in perfect accord with Daniel 2.
brakelite
Member
Hi Jiggyfly. The counterfeit I speak of is far more than just a poor copy of God's church. It is a counterfeit god. The Antichrist is a substitute god for the real God. It is a counterfeit trinity. The Antichrist shows himself that he is god, (2 Thess.2:4) thus the worship that goes to him is also counterfeit.
Carefully study the following. They are comparisons revealing the true from the counterfeit.
Dragon/Satan.
His place in heaven (Rev 12:3,7,8.)
He has a throne. (Rev 13:2, 2:13)
Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
He is worshipped. (13:4a)
Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)
Now compare:
God the Father
Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4,5)
He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)
The Land-beast or false prophet.
Called the false prophet because he decieves people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
Lamb-like. (13:11)
Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
Applies mark of beast. (13:16)
Now compare:
The Holy Spirit
Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
Christ-like. (Jn 1426; 16:14)
Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13,14)
Directs worship to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
Instills life to us, the image of Christ. (Romans8:11,29)
Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3,4.)
The sea-beast or antichrist.
Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
Ten diadems. (13:1)
Ten horns (13:1)
Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
Was slain (13:3)
Resurrected (13:3)
Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)
Now compare:
Jesus Christ
Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
Was slain (Rev 5:6)
Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)
For those who would indulge in thinking that perhaps Islam or some other religion or religious leader is the Antichrist, I would remind them that counterfeits are copies of the truth. You do not get counterfeit $99 notes. The counterfeit religion, the counterfeit god, the counterfeit worship of the last days, Babylon the Great, is a quasi Christian form of worship, a Christian God, a Christian form of church. That my friends is what makes it so dangerous, so deceptive.
I agree with you that we must understand the original before we can identify the false. That is what counterfeit experts do. They are so familiar with the real, that the false becomes obvious. We also must become absolutely familiar with the real Christ, we must worship Him in Spirit and in truth, then, and only then, can we hope to recognise the dangers that the Antichrist possesses. It is from this viewpoint that this study has evolved. It was through the reformer's close relationship with the true Lord that their conclusions were drawn. I believe I pointed this out in a previous post.
But it must be remembered and recognised that the apostolic church was an organised church. It was not an ad hoc ensemble of individual congregations all doing their own thing. Even the apostle Paul went to Jerusalem to confer with the church leaders, the apostles, to confirm whether he was in fact preaching the true gospel. And as the church grew, particularly in later centuries in Britain and the far East, church leaders were appointed to encourage, teach, lead and guide the church in missions and church life. These churches flourished and grew from strength to strength, and made massive miraculous and life changing inroads into the incumbent ruling paganism of those days, in countries from as far afield as Ireland to Arabia, and from Ethiopia to Scandinavia, from India to China. And all within 2 to 3 hundred years from the time of Christ. These churches must never be confused with the church / state union that emanated from Rome in the 6th century and became the bitterest enemy of Christ's church for over a 1000 years.
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brakelite
Member
The Beasts of Daniel 7.
The chapter in which these creatures appear is Daniel 7. But to understand the context, one must go back to Daniel 2 where a vision is given and an explanation of the meaning of a statue. It had a head of gold, chest of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay. Then a rock from heaven comes down and destroys the whole thing.
This statue represented 4 empires to come, beginning from Daniels time, each one superceding the one before, and the final to continue right down to the second coming of Christ, which the rock represents.
The first kingdom was Babylon. The second, Media - persia, the third Greece, and the fourth, Rome. Rome would continue till our day except in a different form. The iron on it's own was pagan Rome, the mixture of iron and clay is papal Rome. So Rome continues to exist, but as a church/state union.
What happens in chapter 7 is the same pattern of empires but with much greater detail. A lion representing Babylon, a bear representing Media-Persia, a Leopard representing Greece, and a horrible indescribable beast representing Rome. Out of this last beast grows 10 horns, plus another which grew up among them, and displaces 3 of them.
Belshazzar ruled Babylon approx. 553 BC.to 539 BC. The prophecy re the predatory animals was given in his first year of reign.
The bear, the second animal to rise up, therefore represented whatever kingdom succeeded Babylon. The bear was pictured as rising up higher on one side, and had 3 ribs in it's mouth. A corresponding prophecy in Daniel 8 enlarges on the theme, and gives even more detail The ram here is said to represent Media/Persia, and the horn on the ram had one side which grew up first, but the other side came up last and grew higher.
The empire was made up of two groups of people. The Medes came up first and Ahasuerus and then his son Darius were the first kings. It was Cyrus however who defeated Babylon in 539BC and he took full power later that year.Cyrus was the first of a line of Persian kings that ruled until Greece defeated them. The 3 ribs in the mouth of the bear represented the 3 major powers that were defeated by this Media/Persian empire, Egypt, Lydia, and Babylon.
The next animal was a leopard which had 4 heads. Alexander the Great
defeated the Persians at the battle of Arbela in the year 331 BC. Greece then became the ruling empire, and was represented by the leopard and the goat of Daniel 8. The leopards 4 heads represent 4 generals that took over from Alexander when he died at the age of 33. These 4 generals divided the empire up between them; they were Cassander, Seleucus, Ptolemy, and Lysimachus. The goat had at first one horn,(Alexander) but was broken and and four others came up in its stead. Thus the 4 horns and the 4 heads all are the same 4 generals who became kings of their own territories.
The 4th beast, Rome, appeared on the scene approx 150 BC. The 4th beast with its 10 horns and a little horn which grew great and destroyed 3 of the first horns, will be the focus of the next post. It is this beast, that remains a part of the world of politics until our day, and takes a major role in the near future.
So far, 3 beasts have been dealt with, and 3 empires identified. Babylon, Media-Persia, and Greece. We saw how the 4 heads of the leopard in Daniel 7 and the 4 horns of the goat in Daniel 8 represented the break up of the Grecian empire into 4 distinct kingdoms under Alexander's 4 generals who took over after his death.
Things get very interesting with the 4th beast. We are given much more detail, and our attention is drawn in particular to the "little horn" which grows from the head of this beast, as if God is wanting to focus our attention on this horn, reasons for which you will shortly understand.
Rome was never conquered by any succeeding empire as were the ones before. It slowly devolved as warring barbarian tribes from the north invaded it's territories, but Rome has always continued to exist but in a different form. The ten horns on the beast are ten kingdoms which developed in the western hemisphere of the empire. One must also remember the ten toes of the statue in Daniel 2. Constantine moved the capital of the empire to Constantinople in the east, leaving the western portion more or less defenceless. It is the western part of the empire that the prophecy focuses on, because it was this part that had by far the greater influence on the church.
It must be remembered that this prophecy was written some 5oo years or more prior to the actual events. Daniel lived in the 6th century BC, these events took place beginning from his time, and continuing down through the ages to today, 2,500 years later. The horns of the 4th beast appeared on the scene around about the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, and the "little horn" began developing in the 2nd century and grew to maturity becoming a power in its own right in the 6th century.
The ten horns represent kings and their respective kingdoms that would arise . Because the horns grow OUT of the beast, Rome, we must look WITHIN that empire in order to find them. We must not expect to find any powers to invade from outside the empire. Prophecy, even in these seemingly minor details is completely accurate.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.....
....24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
So what does history show us? The following is a list of ten barbarian tribes that carved out a land niche for their people toward the end of the Roman pagan rule in western Europe. There are 7 modern nations of Europe that descended from these people. 3 of the original 10 were destroyed.
VISIGOTHS.......... SPAIN
ANGLO SAXONS..... ENGLAND
FRANKS.......... FRANCE
ALEMANNI ........ GERMANY
BURGUNDIANS ...... SWITZERLAND
LOMBARDS ....... ITALY
SUEVI ......... PORTUGAL
HERULI .......... ROOTED UP
OSTROGOTHS ..... ROOTED UP
VANDALS ....... ROOTED UP
No trace nor descendant exists today of those tribes that were destroyed.
How then does history show how these 3 were destroyed?
3 kings, Alaric, Genseric, and Theodoric led these 3 nations. At a time when the Christian faith had become the official religion of the Roman empire, (although in a much compromised form) , these former pagan kings as one can well understand had some problems with the new faith. Several matters they disagreed with, the 2 main ones being the divinity of Christ and the authority of the bishop of Rome over the church. When Constantine left the Roman secular rule empty after taking the capital of the empire to Constantinople, the bishop of Rome took up the mantle and began to exercise secular authority over Rome as well as spiritual. Power went to their heads and it wasn't long before the bishops there began calling themselves popes or pontifex maximus after the pagan rulers did before Christianity, but also claimed authority over all Christendom, outside of Rome as well.
This did not sit well with many, not only the barbarain tribes just mentioned, but also true believers in Christ who wanted nothing to do with politics and thought the church should be completely separate from the state. (An argument still going on to this day) These Christians were roundly persecuted by the state/church union, along with Jews, and non-Christians alike.
The 3 tribes were a constant thorn in the side of Rome, and had to be dealt with before the popes could claim complete sovereignty as the Ostrogoths in particular, occupied Rome itself and the bishops ruled only through tolerance.
The Catholic emperor Zeno arranged a treaty with the Ostrogoths in 487 AD which resulted in the eradication of the Heruli 6 years later. The emperor Justinian exterminated the Vandals in 534 AD. The following year, the spiritual rule over all the churches of the empire by the Roman bishop was made official by Justinian, as well as secular ruler of the city of Rome. The Ostrogoths however still occupied Rome, and thus the bishops were deprived of full autonomy at this time. The next year however, in 538, they were expelled from Rome. It is from this date that the church/state union of the Roman Catholic church came to full power. This date takes on further significance as I will explain later. The Ostrogoths were finally defeated completely 15 years later, in 553 AD.
Although these kings were destroyed by secular armies, it was at the instigation and the approval and the assumed authority of the bishop of Rome that it was undertaken. Thus the prophecy is remarkably fulfilled, the ten horns are identified, the 3 that were destroyed confirmed, and the first clue as to the identity of the little horn revealed. Is the Roman Catholic church really the little horn of prophecy?
This final little horn I would like to discuss now. There is more written in the scriptures about this power than all the previous empires combined. It is important we understand the nature of the power in question, it's real identity, and the danger it poses to the world. There are at least 10 characteristics which pinpoint with unerring accuracy the identity of this 'little horn'. I have already explained that it was the Roman Catholic Church which had the principle role in the destruction of the 3 former nations, the Vandals, Ostrogoths and Heruli. The question is, does the papacy fit all the other characteristics given. Is the RCC the little horn that we are to be warned of?
I will delve into those characteristics in subsequent posts.
The chapter in which these creatures appear is Daniel 7. But to understand the context, one must go back to Daniel 2 where a vision is given and an explanation of the meaning of a statue. It had a head of gold, chest of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay. Then a rock from heaven comes down and destroys the whole thing.
This statue represented 4 empires to come, beginning from Daniels time, each one superceding the one before, and the final to continue right down to the second coming of Christ, which the rock represents.
The first kingdom was Babylon. The second, Media - persia, the third Greece, and the fourth, Rome. Rome would continue till our day except in a different form. The iron on it's own was pagan Rome, the mixture of iron and clay is papal Rome. So Rome continues to exist, but as a church/state union.
What happens in chapter 7 is the same pattern of empires but with much greater detail. A lion representing Babylon, a bear representing Media-Persia, a Leopard representing Greece, and a horrible indescribable beast representing Rome. Out of this last beast grows 10 horns, plus another which grew up among them, and displaces 3 of them.
Belshazzar ruled Babylon approx. 553 BC.to 539 BC. The prophecy re the predatory animals was given in his first year of reign.
The bear, the second animal to rise up, therefore represented whatever kingdom succeeded Babylon. The bear was pictured as rising up higher on one side, and had 3 ribs in it's mouth. A corresponding prophecy in Daniel 8 enlarges on the theme, and gives even more detail The ram here is said to represent Media/Persia, and the horn on the ram had one side which grew up first, but the other side came up last and grew higher.
The empire was made up of two groups of people. The Medes came up first and Ahasuerus and then his son Darius were the first kings. It was Cyrus however who defeated Babylon in 539BC and he took full power later that year.Cyrus was the first of a line of Persian kings that ruled until Greece defeated them. The 3 ribs in the mouth of the bear represented the 3 major powers that were defeated by this Media/Persian empire, Egypt, Lydia, and Babylon.
The next animal was a leopard which had 4 heads. Alexander the Great
defeated the Persians at the battle of Arbela in the year 331 BC. Greece then became the ruling empire, and was represented by the leopard and the goat of Daniel 8. The leopards 4 heads represent 4 generals that took over from Alexander when he died at the age of 33. These 4 generals divided the empire up between them; they were Cassander, Seleucus, Ptolemy, and Lysimachus. The goat had at first one horn,(Alexander) but was broken and and four others came up in its stead. Thus the 4 horns and the 4 heads all are the same 4 generals who became kings of their own territories.
The 4th beast, Rome, appeared on the scene approx 150 BC. The 4th beast with its 10 horns and a little horn which grew great and destroyed 3 of the first horns, will be the focus of the next post. It is this beast, that remains a part of the world of politics until our day, and takes a major role in the near future.
So far, 3 beasts have been dealt with, and 3 empires identified. Babylon, Media-Persia, and Greece. We saw how the 4 heads of the leopard in Daniel 7 and the 4 horns of the goat in Daniel 8 represented the break up of the Grecian empire into 4 distinct kingdoms under Alexander's 4 generals who took over after his death.
Things get very interesting with the 4th beast. We are given much more detail, and our attention is drawn in particular to the "little horn" which grows from the head of this beast, as if God is wanting to focus our attention on this horn, reasons for which you will shortly understand.
Rome was never conquered by any succeeding empire as were the ones before. It slowly devolved as warring barbarian tribes from the north invaded it's territories, but Rome has always continued to exist but in a different form. The ten horns on the beast are ten kingdoms which developed in the western hemisphere of the empire. One must also remember the ten toes of the statue in Daniel 2. Constantine moved the capital of the empire to Constantinople in the east, leaving the western portion more or less defenceless. It is the western part of the empire that the prophecy focuses on, because it was this part that had by far the greater influence on the church.
It must be remembered that this prophecy was written some 5oo years or more prior to the actual events. Daniel lived in the 6th century BC, these events took place beginning from his time, and continuing down through the ages to today, 2,500 years later. The horns of the 4th beast appeared on the scene around about the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, and the "little horn" began developing in the 2nd century and grew to maturity becoming a power in its own right in the 6th century.
The ten horns represent kings and their respective kingdoms that would arise . Because the horns grow OUT of the beast, Rome, we must look WITHIN that empire in order to find them. We must not expect to find any powers to invade from outside the empire. Prophecy, even in these seemingly minor details is completely accurate.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.....
....24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
So what does history show us? The following is a list of ten barbarian tribes that carved out a land niche for their people toward the end of the Roman pagan rule in western Europe. There are 7 modern nations of Europe that descended from these people. 3 of the original 10 were destroyed.
VISIGOTHS.......... SPAIN
ANGLO SAXONS..... ENGLAND
FRANKS.......... FRANCE
ALEMANNI ........ GERMANY
BURGUNDIANS ...... SWITZERLAND
LOMBARDS ....... ITALY
SUEVI ......... PORTUGAL
HERULI .......... ROOTED UP
OSTROGOTHS ..... ROOTED UP
VANDALS ....... ROOTED UP
No trace nor descendant exists today of those tribes that were destroyed.
How then does history show how these 3 were destroyed?
3 kings, Alaric, Genseric, and Theodoric led these 3 nations. At a time when the Christian faith had become the official religion of the Roman empire, (although in a much compromised form) , these former pagan kings as one can well understand had some problems with the new faith. Several matters they disagreed with, the 2 main ones being the divinity of Christ and the authority of the bishop of Rome over the church. When Constantine left the Roman secular rule empty after taking the capital of the empire to Constantinople, the bishop of Rome took up the mantle and began to exercise secular authority over Rome as well as spiritual. Power went to their heads and it wasn't long before the bishops there began calling themselves popes or pontifex maximus after the pagan rulers did before Christianity, but also claimed authority over all Christendom, outside of Rome as well.
This did not sit well with many, not only the barbarain tribes just mentioned, but also true believers in Christ who wanted nothing to do with politics and thought the church should be completely separate from the state. (An argument still going on to this day) These Christians were roundly persecuted by the state/church union, along with Jews, and non-Christians alike.
The 3 tribes were a constant thorn in the side of Rome, and had to be dealt with before the popes could claim complete sovereignty as the Ostrogoths in particular, occupied Rome itself and the bishops ruled only through tolerance.
The Catholic emperor Zeno arranged a treaty with the Ostrogoths in 487 AD which resulted in the eradication of the Heruli 6 years later. The emperor Justinian exterminated the Vandals in 534 AD. The following year, the spiritual rule over all the churches of the empire by the Roman bishop was made official by Justinian, as well as secular ruler of the city of Rome. The Ostrogoths however still occupied Rome, and thus the bishops were deprived of full autonomy at this time. The next year however, in 538, they were expelled from Rome. It is from this date that the church/state union of the Roman Catholic church came to full power. This date takes on further significance as I will explain later. The Ostrogoths were finally defeated completely 15 years later, in 553 AD.
Although these kings were destroyed by secular armies, it was at the instigation and the approval and the assumed authority of the bishop of Rome that it was undertaken. Thus the prophecy is remarkably fulfilled, the ten horns are identified, the 3 that were destroyed confirmed, and the first clue as to the identity of the little horn revealed. Is the Roman Catholic church really the little horn of prophecy?
This final little horn I would like to discuss now. There is more written in the scriptures about this power than all the previous empires combined. It is important we understand the nature of the power in question, it's real identity, and the danger it poses to the world. There are at least 10 characteristics which pinpoint with unerring accuracy the identity of this 'little horn'. I have already explained that it was the Roman Catholic Church which had the principle role in the destruction of the 3 former nations, the Vandals, Ostrogoths and Heruli. The question is, does the papacy fit all the other characteristics given. Is the RCC the little horn that we are to be warned of?
I will delve into those characteristics in subsequent posts.
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brakelite
Member
Three major characteristics which most are familiar with concerning the little horn is ...
1.... her persecution of the true saints of God, (Daniel 7:21,25)
2.....the changing of times and laws, and (Daniel 7:25)
3.....her initial duration of 1260 days/42 months/times time and half a time. (Daniel 7:25;12:7: Revel. 11:2,3;12:6,14; 13:5.)
Characteristic 1. Daniel 7 verses 21 and 25 says that this entity would wear out and make war with and persecute the true followers of Jesus, the Christian church. History records that the RCC ,according to even the most conservative historians , has been directly responsible for the deaths of at least 50 million people in matters of conscientious or religious principle, over a space of 1200 odd years. Wars against nations (the Hussites of Czechoslovakia), communities of Christians in various countries (the Waldenses of Nth Italy and Albigenses of France), crusades against Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Palestine and elsewhere , and the inqusition in Spain France and India. Besides the persecutions by Catholic kings and queens in many countries throughout Europe on behalf of the Pope. The book, Foxe's Book of Martyrs is an excellent source for more detailed information on this subject. Add to this is evidence that the Vatican was closely involved in the Crimean war, both world wars, the civil war in the US, and the Vietnam war and I think one could safely say that she fulfils the required qualification for persecution of the church. You might be asking by now "but isn't the catholic church a Christian church?" In answer to that, I would say look at it's history, and tell me if you believe the church to be Christian. That there are individuals within the RCC that are Christian is without question. But the system and structure itself?
Characteristic 2 The next qualifying point is in Daniel 7:25. The Bible says that this power would seek to change times and laws. Now every power changes times and laws right? So what's so special about that you may ask. We are talking about God's laws, as given in the ten commandments. The Bible lists these commandments in the book of Exodus. The Catholic catechisms list of ten commandments is quite different.
They have removed the second commandment entirely. That commandment involves the worshipping of graven images or idols. Go into any catholic church or see any catholic shrine and you will understand why that commandment was removed. The tenth commandment was divided into 2 parts to make up the ten.
And the 4th commandment, which deals with worship, has been altered also. This is where they have changed the times and law also. The Sabbath has been changed in Catholic doctrine from Saturday to Sunday. The Jews always observed the Sabbath, from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, the 7th day of the week. This changed to Sunday over a number of years and the RCC adopted the change officially around about the 5th century.
Characteristic 3 Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Many prophecies have a time element embedded within them. In such cases if the prophecy says that such 'n such will last 20 days, then it is to be interpreted as 20 years. There are several examples of this and all have proved to be perfectly accurate.
There is a prophetic time period repeated 7 times in the Bible. Twice in the book of Daniel, and 5 times in Revelation. All 7 refer to the same period of time, but presented in 3 different ways. They are as follows.
Daniel 7:25; 12:7 Rev. 11:2,3; 12:6, 14; 13:5.
They are presented as "times, time, and half a time"; 1260 days; and 42 months. A "time" is one year. "Times" is 2 years, and "half a time" is half a year. Three and a half years in total. Based on the Hebrew calender of a 30 day month/360 days per one year, 3 and 1/2 years equals 1260 days. 42 months on the same basis is also 1260 days. Converted to years all come to the same identical time period, 1260 years.
According to Daniel 7:25, the little horn was to have power over the saints (the church) for 1260 days, or in real time, 1260 years. The rule of the papacy, as I mentioned in a previous post, began in 538AD with the final expulsion of the Ostrogoths from Rome, the last of the 3 horns to be uprooted. It's rule continued until 1798 when Napoleon's general, Berthier, entered Rome and took the pope captive. The college of cardinals was disbanded and Rome declared a republic. All papal states were confiscated. The pope died in exile 2 years later. To all intents and purposes, the Roman Catholic church as a church/state union was finished. No longer was there a pope holding civil authority in Rome, and thus the secular authority she used to try and execute who she branded as heretics was over. Exactly 1260 years after it began.
This event was a deadly blow to the papacy. In Revelation this same event is described this way: ...'one of it's heads wounded to death', (Revelation 13:3) speaking of the same entity, but no longer a horn, but rather the full grown beast. This change in perspective I will discuss later as we take a look at Revelation 13. Political leaders world-wide all shared the same sentiment when speaking of this papal captivity at the time; they all agreed that it was the end of the papal civil authority, never to be heard from again. Most celebrated. No more persecution, no more consigning entire nations to the fires of hell on the pretext of some offence against the current pope. Of course, as a church, in countries world wide, they still existed and operated.
The scriptures however disagreed with those political leaders, because the Bible says that the deadly wound would be healed. And indeed it was. In 1929 Mussolini restored the Vatican city to the papacy, giving the pope of the time once more civil authority. The Bible however goes somewhat further. Not only was the papacy to be restored to civil power, which has taken place, but that at some time following, the entire world would "wonder after the beast". As we observe the international politicking by the 2 more recent popes, and the world-wide interest after the death of the John Paul, one need not stretch his imagination too far to envisage the papacy once again gaining the authority it once enjoyed in Europe during the dark ages, only in the near future, on a world-wide scale. This is what the Bible is warning us about. But more on that later.
In the meantime, we have seen how the RCC has fulfilled to the letter 4 key qualifiers regarding it's positive identity as the little horn of Daniel 7. As far as Biblical time-frames is concerned, the revival of the papacy after it's initial life span of 1260 years, is a sure sign of the second coming of Jesus. The re-establishment of the papacy as a world power and a principle player in world politics is one of the few remaining prophetic fulfillments before the second coming of Jesus and the end of the present age.
You may be asking yourself however why the re-establishment of the papal civil authority should be anything to be concerned about. The reason is actually very simple.
The Roman Catholic church sees herself as ruler and supreme authority not just over churches, protestant and catholic, but over all nations as well. This includes all other faiths, and even non-faiths such as atheism. So even if you don't believe in God and haven't darkened the doorway of a church in your entire life apart from your own wedding, the pope still claims authority over you. Freedom of worship, and freedom not to worship, is utterly foreign to Vatican policy. It was as late as the 1860s that she officially denounced freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and outlawed the Bible except as she was sole interpreter. Because she claims infallibility, these policies remain, and though in the current political climate she doesn't have the power to implement such policies, the time is coming, according to the scriptures, that she will. And through ecumenism, it will be the protestant!! churches who will give her the power to do so. Persecution and the execution of 'heretics' will be re-established. 'Heretics' my friends will include believers and non-believers alike. No-one will escape.
1.... her persecution of the true saints of God, (Daniel 7:21,25)
2.....the changing of times and laws, and (Daniel 7:25)
3.....her initial duration of 1260 days/42 months/times time and half a time. (Daniel 7:25;12:7: Revel. 11:2,3;12:6,14; 13:5.)
Characteristic 1. Daniel 7 verses 21 and 25 says that this entity would wear out and make war with and persecute the true followers of Jesus, the Christian church. History records that the RCC ,according to even the most conservative historians , has been directly responsible for the deaths of at least 50 million people in matters of conscientious or religious principle, over a space of 1200 odd years. Wars against nations (the Hussites of Czechoslovakia), communities of Christians in various countries (the Waldenses of Nth Italy and Albigenses of France), crusades against Muslims, Jews, and Christians in Palestine and elsewhere , and the inqusition in Spain France and India. Besides the persecutions by Catholic kings and queens in many countries throughout Europe on behalf of the Pope. The book, Foxe's Book of Martyrs is an excellent source for more detailed information on this subject. Add to this is evidence that the Vatican was closely involved in the Crimean war, both world wars, the civil war in the US, and the Vietnam war and I think one could safely say that she fulfils the required qualification for persecution of the church. You might be asking by now "but isn't the catholic church a Christian church?" In answer to that, I would say look at it's history, and tell me if you believe the church to be Christian. That there are individuals within the RCC that are Christian is without question. But the system and structure itself?
Characteristic 2 The next qualifying point is in Daniel 7:25. The Bible says that this power would seek to change times and laws. Now every power changes times and laws right? So what's so special about that you may ask. We are talking about God's laws, as given in the ten commandments. The Bible lists these commandments in the book of Exodus. The Catholic catechisms list of ten commandments is quite different.
They have removed the second commandment entirely. That commandment involves the worshipping of graven images or idols. Go into any catholic church or see any catholic shrine and you will understand why that commandment was removed. The tenth commandment was divided into 2 parts to make up the ten.
And the 4th commandment, which deals with worship, has been altered also. This is where they have changed the times and law also. The Sabbath has been changed in Catholic doctrine from Saturday to Sunday. The Jews always observed the Sabbath, from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, the 7th day of the week. This changed to Sunday over a number of years and the RCC adopted the change officially around about the 5th century.
Characteristic 3 Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Many prophecies have a time element embedded within them. In such cases if the prophecy says that such 'n such will last 20 days, then it is to be interpreted as 20 years. There are several examples of this and all have proved to be perfectly accurate.
There is a prophetic time period repeated 7 times in the Bible. Twice in the book of Daniel, and 5 times in Revelation. All 7 refer to the same period of time, but presented in 3 different ways. They are as follows.
Daniel 7:25; 12:7 Rev. 11:2,3; 12:6, 14; 13:5.
They are presented as "times, time, and half a time"; 1260 days; and 42 months. A "time" is one year. "Times" is 2 years, and "half a time" is half a year. Three and a half years in total. Based on the Hebrew calender of a 30 day month/360 days per one year, 3 and 1/2 years equals 1260 days. 42 months on the same basis is also 1260 days. Converted to years all come to the same identical time period, 1260 years.
According to Daniel 7:25, the little horn was to have power over the saints (the church) for 1260 days, or in real time, 1260 years. The rule of the papacy, as I mentioned in a previous post, began in 538AD with the final expulsion of the Ostrogoths from Rome, the last of the 3 horns to be uprooted. It's rule continued until 1798 when Napoleon's general, Berthier, entered Rome and took the pope captive. The college of cardinals was disbanded and Rome declared a republic. All papal states were confiscated. The pope died in exile 2 years later. To all intents and purposes, the Roman Catholic church as a church/state union was finished. No longer was there a pope holding civil authority in Rome, and thus the secular authority she used to try and execute who she branded as heretics was over. Exactly 1260 years after it began.
This event was a deadly blow to the papacy. In Revelation this same event is described this way: ...'one of it's heads wounded to death', (Revelation 13:3) speaking of the same entity, but no longer a horn, but rather the full grown beast. This change in perspective I will discuss later as we take a look at Revelation 13. Political leaders world-wide all shared the same sentiment when speaking of this papal captivity at the time; they all agreed that it was the end of the papal civil authority, never to be heard from again. Most celebrated. No more persecution, no more consigning entire nations to the fires of hell on the pretext of some offence against the current pope. Of course, as a church, in countries world wide, they still existed and operated.
The scriptures however disagreed with those political leaders, because the Bible says that the deadly wound would be healed. And indeed it was. In 1929 Mussolini restored the Vatican city to the papacy, giving the pope of the time once more civil authority. The Bible however goes somewhat further. Not only was the papacy to be restored to civil power, which has taken place, but that at some time following, the entire world would "wonder after the beast". As we observe the international politicking by the 2 more recent popes, and the world-wide interest after the death of the John Paul, one need not stretch his imagination too far to envisage the papacy once again gaining the authority it once enjoyed in Europe during the dark ages, only in the near future, on a world-wide scale. This is what the Bible is warning us about. But more on that later.
In the meantime, we have seen how the RCC has fulfilled to the letter 4 key qualifiers regarding it's positive identity as the little horn of Daniel 7. As far as Biblical time-frames is concerned, the revival of the papacy after it's initial life span of 1260 years, is a sure sign of the second coming of Jesus. The re-establishment of the papacy as a world power and a principle player in world politics is one of the few remaining prophetic fulfillments before the second coming of Jesus and the end of the present age.
You may be asking yourself however why the re-establishment of the papal civil authority should be anything to be concerned about. The reason is actually very simple.
The Roman Catholic church sees herself as ruler and supreme authority not just over churches, protestant and catholic, but over all nations as well. This includes all other faiths, and even non-faiths such as atheism. So even if you don't believe in God and haven't darkened the doorway of a church in your entire life apart from your own wedding, the pope still claims authority over you. Freedom of worship, and freedom not to worship, is utterly foreign to Vatican policy. It was as late as the 1860s that she officially denounced freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and outlawed the Bible except as she was sole interpreter. Because she claims infallibility, these policies remain, and though in the current political climate she doesn't have the power to implement such policies, the time is coming, according to the scriptures, that she will. And through ecumenism, it will be the protestant!! churches who will give her the power to do so. Persecution and the execution of 'heretics' will be re-established. 'Heretics' my friends will include believers and non-believers alike. No-one will escape.
brakelite
Member
Five further identifying characteristics
We have so far seen four distinct prophetic markers which God has been pleased to reveal to us through His prophet that we may be certain as to our accurately identifying the Antichrist.
They were:
1. Involvement in the uprooting of 3 kings.
2. Active persecution of God's people.
3. It would seek to change times and laws.
4. An initial lifespan of 1260 years. (538ad - 1798ad)
We will now briefly look at a further 5 markers, and see if the papacy matches each one.
5. The little horn would grow up among the ten horns of Europe, after the ten had been established. (Daniel 7:8) This is indeed indicative of the papal church, for although she had her beginnings in earlier centuries, she did not have full autonomy in ecclesiastical and civil matters until the 6th century.
6. Would be led by a man who would be its spokesman. (Daniel 7:8) The pope is unchallenged and remains the church's leader for life.
7. It would be diverse from other kingdoms. (Daniel 7:24) The papacy began as a religious power, but later assumed secular authority as well. It is in essence a union of church and state, an utterly unacceptable situation Biblically for a 'Christian' church.In being so she is in fact in an adulterous relationship.
8. It would emerge from the pagan Roman empire, the 4th world kingdom. The office of Pontifex Maximus, that title taken by the Caesars, was also continued by subsequent popes, even to today he is referred to as the 'Pontiff'.
9. It would speak great words against the Most High, or blaspheme God. Blasphemy has two definitions in scripture. a. claiming the power to forgive sin (Luke 5:21) when no such power has been given and b. Claiming to be God (John 10:33)
Note the following quotes from Catholic sources.
Does the Priest truly forgive sins, or does he merely declare they are remitted? Answer: The priest does really and truly forgive sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ. (A Complete Catechism of the Catholic Religion 1924)
The papacy sets aside and undermines Christ's ministry in heaven by setting up a rival system of confession. The priesthood itself displaces the place of Christ as our only Mediator. (Hebrews 3:1; 8:1,2; 1 Timothy 2:5) The term 'antichrist' means not only against, but also 'in place of; thus the papacy here clearly fits the title.
"We (the popes) hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty. (Pope Leo X111 1894) "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh" (Catholic National. July 1895) I could provide many more such quotes.
8.
We have so far seen four distinct prophetic markers which God has been pleased to reveal to us through His prophet that we may be certain as to our accurately identifying the Antichrist.
They were:
1. Involvement in the uprooting of 3 kings.
2. Active persecution of God's people.
3. It would seek to change times and laws.
4. An initial lifespan of 1260 years. (538ad - 1798ad)
We will now briefly look at a further 5 markers, and see if the papacy matches each one.
5. The little horn would grow up among the ten horns of Europe, after the ten had been established. (Daniel 7:8) This is indeed indicative of the papal church, for although she had her beginnings in earlier centuries, she did not have full autonomy in ecclesiastical and civil matters until the 6th century.
6. Would be led by a man who would be its spokesman. (Daniel 7:8) The pope is unchallenged and remains the church's leader for life.
7. It would be diverse from other kingdoms. (Daniel 7:24) The papacy began as a religious power, but later assumed secular authority as well. It is in essence a union of church and state, an utterly unacceptable situation Biblically for a 'Christian' church.In being so she is in fact in an adulterous relationship.
8. It would emerge from the pagan Roman empire, the 4th world kingdom. The office of Pontifex Maximus, that title taken by the Caesars, was also continued by subsequent popes, even to today he is referred to as the 'Pontiff'.
9. It would speak great words against the Most High, or blaspheme God. Blasphemy has two definitions in scripture. a. claiming the power to forgive sin (Luke 5:21) when no such power has been given and b. Claiming to be God (John 10:33)
Note the following quotes from Catholic sources.
Does the Priest truly forgive sins, or does he merely declare they are remitted? Answer: The priest does really and truly forgive sins in virtue of the power given to him by Christ. (A Complete Catechism of the Catholic Religion 1924)
The papacy sets aside and undermines Christ's ministry in heaven by setting up a rival system of confession. The priesthood itself displaces the place of Christ as our only Mediator. (Hebrews 3:1; 8:1,2; 1 Timothy 2:5) The term 'antichrist' means not only against, but also 'in place of; thus the papacy here clearly fits the title.
"We (the popes) hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty. (Pope Leo X111 1894) "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh" (Catholic National. July 1895) I could provide many more such quotes.
8.
All I can say Brakelite when I think of the Catholic Church is Anathema and pray Lord have mercy. So many people my brother, so many.
brakelite
Member
There is always hope bro...I know personally many many Catholics who are now worshipping God in truth. I am one of them.
"Come out of her My people". God has children in that communion...it is part of the gospel message for us to call them out; can only be done with love, patience, and the power of prayer and the Holy Spirit.
I see my job here to shine a light that none here will founder on the rocks of ecumenism.
I would like to point out just one more interesting piece of scripture regarding the papacy while we are still in Daniel. In Daniel 8:8-10 we read of a little horn that grows out of one of the four winds and waxes exceeding great south, east, and to Palestine, the pleasant land. Many modern religionists claim this is one of the kings of Greece, namely, Antiochus Epiphanes; this interpretation is particularly prevalent among preterist circles, those who would have us believe that all prophecy was fulfilled prior to 70ad, and that Antiochus was the antichrist.
I would like to put that little baby to rest by pointing out that the first big horn that grew out of the goat (Daniel 8:8) which was broken, waxed very great. This horn was Alexander the Great who died at the height of his power of alcohol poisoning so it is believed. But note, that the next horn which many claim is Antiochus, waxed exceeding great! Now Antiochus may have been a bit of a nuisance round the traps, but was he really greater than Alexander? Absolutely not, therefore we must look elsewhere to identify this little horn. The only power after Greece to wax greater was pagan Rome. It went south, east, and to Palestine. Fits perfectly.
But notice the next verse. Daniel 8:10 says it waxed great, even to the host of heaven! So previously this horn grew on a horizontal plane, but then altered course and grew vertically, even to attacking the kingdom of God itself. This friends is the papal power. Therefore the horn of Rome was not broken as the one of Alexander, but changed its nature! Paganism died, while pseudo Christianity took over.And that is precisely what history has recorded for us. Pagan Rome may have come to its end, but Rome itself lived in the form of the papacy. I will attack Revelation 13 next, and we will see this change in nature amplified even more.
brakelite
Member
Well, thankyou neighbour. I was beginning to wonder that my posts were too long and too overpowering. Your encouragement is...ummm...well, encouraging.
That said, if anyone wants more detail on any one of the above 9 characteristics, whether it be history or whatever, be glad to oblige. I have much more information I can offer that simply adds to the present evidence.