Hebrews 6:4

[RJ]

Hebrews 6:4

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

After being save and the first time I ran across this passage, I was really confused and I soon found out that I wasn't the only one.

How could this be, how could a Christian "Fall Away". I certainly didn't want to and, since my re-birth was so fresh in my mind, I didn't think I could.

As it turns out, it was a good lesson in listening to another person, a preacher and even the Bible. I know now that you have to be more prepared in your conclusion, be more of a study of God's word and always test the spirits in everything you do.

1 John 4:1


1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

For me this holds true, even with a verse from the Bible.

When you test the spirits, even your thought on a Bible verse, you must take your answer and test it against God and his perfect will and plan for us from the rst of he Bible as a whole. If you can turn your decision about anything into a negative outcome, I trust in God that is not from him.

With Hebrews 6:4, I found out this to be true.

Now, there is an age old debate who wrote Hebrews so, for this discussion, lets say it was in fact Paul.

Paul, when refering to "Falling Away" , he was not talking about you and me, he was talking about the unsaved. In fact, I would like to think that Paul, if given the opportunity, would also call this his "Once Saved Always Saved" Theology but let's leave that for another time.

For some study, on my part, I found some plausible explanation and it satisfied the testing of the spirits.

As it turns out, Paul was having a difficult time with spies from the Temple infiltrating the church. It appears that these people were church members for some period of time and to the extent that they called themselves Christians, as many beleived they were.
What actually was going on, they were Christians on the outside but not on the inside. They, in fact, were trying to lead others in the church and back to the Temple. They were telling their "brothers" that it was O.K. to be a folower of Christ but that they also needed to come back to the Temple and participate in Temple sacrifices.

What Paul was doing in Hebres 6, was that he was talking to the saved about the unsaved. He was telling his church that they were essentially signed , sealed and delivered; nothing could take them away from God.

He was saying, for a true Christian can not fall away, that if you could, there were no more sacrifices to bring them back, that there would be no putting Jesus back up on the cross again.

Paul was talking to the saved about Apostate Spies and that an unbeliever can not fall away from where he had never been...a saved state.

Never think that you can "fall away", that is not of God. We all struggle and let the flesh and the world interfere with our relationship with God. The Bible talks about when you recieve the spirit, it is for all eternity. God said he would never leave or forsake you.

He is in you. How do you fall away from that?

 

[B-A-C]

These aren't really verses about the same topic, but there have been so many posts about "once saved, always saved" (pro and con) over the years even on TJ alone there have been hundreds, and to tell the truth, I'm not sure it matters.
As for Heb 6:4, you are correct. This isn't about Christians that committed a sin after they were saved, this is about unbelievers that the truth has been revealed to.

 

[RJ]

These aren't really verses about the same topic, but there have been so many posts about "once saved, always saved" (pro and con) over the years even on TJ alone there have been hundreds, and to tell the truth, I'm not sure it matters.
As for Heb 6:4, you are correct. This isn't about Christians that committed a sin after they were saved, this is about unbelievers that the truth has been revealed to.

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)

With all do respect, I disagree...it does matter and, I will tell you why: This kind of thinking or untruth, actually the opposite of Jesus, puts some into bondage of that untruth!

Too many people do not understnd Hebrew 6:4 and use that mis-understanding to support their disbelief in OSAS and, as a result take it a step further and think that they can infact " Fall Away" and another term that is misunderstand.

The Holy Spirit is in you and once you have him, that is for all eternity. God said that he would never leave you and so there is nothing that you can fall away from; no matter where you think you might have temporaily gone in your walk.

Also, the same is with being saved. God says that he no longer looks at your sin and with him in you, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit for ever, so there is no such thing as becoming unsaved.

You know, Jesus said that you have 2 births, one of your mother and one of the Spirit.....I believe that you can't be unborn from either one!

 

[Stickz]

RJ: As it turns out, Paul was having a difficult time with spies from the Temple infiltrating the church. It appears that these people were church members for some period of time and to the extent that they called themselves Christians, as many beleived they were.
What actually was going on, they were Christians on the outside but not on the inside. They, in fact, were trying to lead others in the church and back to the Temple. They were telling their "brothers" that it was O.K. to be a folower of Christ but that they also needed to come back to the Temple and participate in Temple sacrifices.

RJ: Paul was talking to the saved about Apostate Spies and that an unbeliever can not fall away from where he had never been...a saved state.

RJ, if you wouldn't mind, post your source on this "Apostate Spies" thing for me. Tell me what you studied to draw this conclusion.

RJ: The Holy Spirit is in you and once you have him, that is for all eternity.

Has this always been the case?

 

[stephen]

Eternal security has been a 'hot chestnut' for as long as I can remember. Let us not be at varience with any regarding this topic.

I have said often here at t.j. that you are saved as long as you stay saved. Paul talked of Demas "Demas hath forsaken me having loved this present evil world" 2.Tim:4.10.

We could argue both sides from the middle. But first things first, that being to t.j.

Regarding the scripture quoted in the O.P.

Christians can backslide, tear down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the fouindation of repentance, and do their first works again.

v 1-2. 2:1-4. Rev.2.5.

 

[RJ]

Eternal security has been a 'hot chestnut' for as long as I can remember. Let us not be at varience with any regarding this topic.

I have said often here at t.j. that you are saved as long as you stay saved. Paul talked of Demas "Demas hath forsaken me having loved this present evil world" 2.Tim:4.10.

We could argue both sides from the middle. But first things first, that being to t.j.

Regarding the scripture quoted in the O.P.

Christians can backslide, tear down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the fouindation of repentance, and do their first works again.

v 1-2. 2:1-4. Rev.2.5.

I'm sorry, that was "lets us not be in varience"...was that with regard to your stance that: " you are saved as long as you stay saved"?

And exactly how does one go about to again not being saved? I would like to see some scripture on that one!

"Christians can backslide, tear down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the fouindation of repentance, and do their first works again"

Excuse me, " should they again be admitted into the church"? Are you talking some local church or, are you saying that the admittance here is God giving you his gift of grace for a second time....WOw!

If you believe a person , once saved, has the spirit of God in them, as a part of God's gift of Grace but, on the other hand, they "back slide",. as you say, then I have a question for you:
When a true "Born Again" Christian, with God living in them, backslides, as you say, where is it exactly that the spirit goes while they are on this backsliding trip?

Can you show me scripture that demonstrates that once in you, that God will leave you for any reason? The only thing I understand is just the opposite......God said he would never leave us!

You said:
Should they again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the fouindation of repentance, and do their first works again"

Their works!
God says that your faith is dead with out works. There is no way that he means your works, because that would be legalism, which he is opposed to and, being your works you could boast and, we know that he is against that also.

We now that Jesus said this:
" I am the vine and you are the branches, if you are in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit, with out me, you can do nothing".

The works that gives your faith life, is that of Jesus Christ and not of your own but the fruit of the spirit!

Hebrews 6: 4-6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

And for me, what the Bible is saying here is that: to be once truly saved and, if you could fall away to Apostacy, then the only way to bring you back to repentance would be to crucify Jesus all over again and to his public disgrace.....and we know that ain't going to happen!

Truly, what the Bible is saying here is that a "Born Again" Christian is exactly that born and, like being born of your mother, there then would be no such thing as being...unborn!

Truly, a "Born Again" Christan can not become unsaved!
Thinking otherwise would be legalism and living under the law!

 

[Stickz]

What about—

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

and—

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

I know that these two examples are from the Old Testament, but you wouldn't suggest that a just God would treat people that much differently, would you? Doesn't it say in a couple of places in the Bible that God is no respecter of persons? He would take His Spirit from people in the Old Testament who were already under the burden of the Law, but today, people have to worry about neither one?

RJ: We now that Jesus said this:
" I am the vine and you are the branches, if you are in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit, with out me, you can do nothing".

Which translation of the Bible are you quoting from, RJ? You seem to have left a word out of—

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I've looked at many translations of the Bible and they all have the word abideth, or it's equivalent, in them. And the word means to continue in, endure, stay. So, I'm kind of curious as to why you conveniently left the word out?

Let's look at another verse in that chapter, as well, while we're in it—

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he pergeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Would you say then that everyone that is born into this world is born into Christ? Do we start our lives in the Lamb's book of life? With a place in the holy city? Then we lose it when we choose not to believe? Is that what you are suggesting?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Would you say that this verse is referring to the unbelievers who have a part in the holy city and the book of life?

You see what you choose to see.

How can you take this description: someone who was once enlightened, someone who has tasted of the heavenly gift, someone who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost, someone who has tasted of the good word of God, someone who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, and not see that it is referring to someone who had at one time been a believer? How can one claim that some "spies" who were pretending to be Christians had experienced these things? My understanding is that an unbeliever cannot possibly experience the Holy Ghost—

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The word 'taste' also means to experience something, just like Jesus tasted of death for everyone. Was Jesus faking it for three days? Or was He not "genuinely" all the way dead?

I'm not going to argue with you about Once Saved, Always Saved; If you want to believe it, believe it. But if you are going to try to explain this chapter in the book of Hebrews, you are going to have to do better than you've done. You aren't the only one that has spent some time studying the Bible.

 

[RJ]

What about—

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

and—

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

I know that these two examples are from the Old Testament, but you wouldn't suggest that a just God would treat people that much differently, would you? Doesn't it say in a couple of places in the Bible that God is no respecter of persons? He would take His Spirit from people in the Old Testament who were already under the burden of the Law, but today, people have to worry about neither one?

Which translation of the Bible are you quoting from, RJ? You seem to have left a word out of—



John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I've looked at many translations of the Bible and they all have the word abideth, or it's equivalent, in them. And the word means to continue in, endure, stay. So, I'm kind of curious as to why you conveniently left the word out?

Let's look at another verse in that chapter, as well, while we're in it—

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he pergeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Would you say then that everyone that is born into this world is born into Christ? Do we start our lives in the Lamb's book of life? With a place in the holy city? Then we lose it when we choose not to believe? Is that what you are suggesting?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Would you say that this verse is referring to the unbelievers who have a part in the holy city and the book of life?

You see what you choose to see.

How can you take this description: someone who was once enlightened, someone who has tasted of the heavenly gift, someone who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost, someone who has tasted of the good word of God, someone who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, and not see that it is referring to someone who had at one time been a believer? How can one claim that some "spies" who were pretending to be Christians had experienced these things? My understanding is that an unbeliever cannot possibly experience the Holy Ghost—

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The word 'taste' also means to experience something, just like Jesus tasted of death for everyone. Was Jesus faking it for three days? Or was He not "genuinely" all the way dead?

I'm not going to argue with you about Once Saved, Always Saved; If you want to believe it, believe it. But if you are going to try to explain this chapter in the book of Hebrews, you are going to have to do better than you've done. You aren't the only one that has spent some time studying the Bible.

[/QUOTE]

What about—

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

and—

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

I know that these two examples are from the Old Testament, but you wouldn't suggest that a just God would treat people that much differently, would you? Doesn't it say in a couple of places in the Bible that God is no respecter of persons? He would take His Spirit from people in the Old Testament who were already under the burden of the Law, but today, people have to worry about neither one?

Which translation of the Bible are you quoting from, RJ? You seem to have left a word out of—
On the contrary, If you look back, I did not quote the exact scripture numbers and was, in fact paraphrasing. Any way "and if your are in me", means the same as abideth.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I've looked at many translations of the Bible and they all have the word abideth, or it's equivalent, in them. And the word means to continue in, endure, stay. So, I'm kind of curious as to why you conveniently left the word out?
The convience you speculate!
English - Definition of abideth[abideth (abide) ] v. stay; live, dwell; continue; tolerate, put up with; wait; comply, submit, obey, conformSIZE=2]So, whos definition is correct
Let's look at another verse in that chapter, as well, while we're in it—

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he pergeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Would you say then that everyone that is born into this world is born into Christ? Do we start our lives in the Lamb's book of life? With a place in the holy city? Then we lose it when we choose not to believe? Is that what you are suggesting?
I have no idea how you come up with that. Please show me where I said as you suggest above that: Would you say then that everyone that is born into this world is born into Christ?Then we lose it when we choose not to believe? Is that what you are suggesting? Again, I have no idea where you come up with that.


Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Would you say that this verse is referring to the unbelievers who have a part in the holy city and the book of life?
Again, please show where I even possibly even insinuated that? How could an unbeliever be in the Book of life...show me how I inferred that please!

You see what you choose to see.

How can you take this description: someone who was once enlightened, someone who has tasted of the heavenly gift, someone who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost, someone who has tasted of the good word of God, someone who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, and not see that it is referring to someone who had at one time been a believer?
I see that what Paul was doing was describing to the beleivers about unbelievers that were never saved in the first place. He was telling the believers that, in fact, it was impossible for them to fall away.
Paul , in fact, even follows that up by saying if you could fall away, and then be brought back into repentance that would require you to crucify Chist all over again...read it!...and we know that is not going to happen.
Yes I choose to see what HEB 6 tells me and you choose see what it tells you.....we can the agree to disagree!

How can one claim that some "spies" who were pretending to be Christians had experienced these things?
The Bible cant tell us everything. My knowledge came about because I once thought like you but it did not fit into God's grace and it confused me,,,so I did research, looked at many a comentary and came up with my conclusion that Paul had some serious Apostates in his church calling themselves Christians but at the same time, urging their brothers to do sacrifices and circumcision. You just believe what you do or you do your own research, or not!. Regardless, this scripture is talking about apsotates....peolpe who were never saved in the first place not believers who became apsotates.
My understanding is that an unbeliever cannot possibly experience the Holy Ghost—
Exactly.... they can't! This was about unbelievers.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The word 'taste' also means to experience something, just like Jesus tasted of death for everyone.
Your right!...again this was about unbeleivers and not beleivers!
Was Jesus faking it for three days? Or was He not "genuinely" all the way dead?

I'm not going to argue with you about Once Saved, Always Saved; If you want to believe it, believe it. But if you are going to try to explain this chapter in the book of Hebrews, you are going to have to do better than you've done. You aren't the only one that has spent some time studying the Bible.
O.K. then, I don't care to argue either and, again let's respectfully just agee to disagree and not get upset about it.
And, by the way... you have this way of putting words in my mouth..I don't recall saying that I was the only one who spent time studying the Bible.

 

[Stickz]

Okay, RJ

RJ: Which translation of the Bible are you quoting from, RJ? You seem to have left a word out of—
On the contrary, If you look back, I did not quote the exact scripture numbers and was, in fact paraphrasing. Any way "and if your are in me", means the same as abideth.

You put quotation marks around what Jesus said. I wasn't sure that you hadn't found that version of what He said in one of the many translations that we have. "And if you are in me," does not mean the same thing as, "He that abideth in me." Your "paraphrased" version ( typical of an OSASer ) removes the possible conditional from the verse.

RJ: I've looked at many translations of the Bible and they all have the word abideth, or it's equivalent, in them. And the word means to continue in, endure, stay. So, I'm kind of curious as to why you conveniently left the word out?
The convience you speculate!
English - Definition of abideth[abideth (abide) ] v. stay; live, dwell; continue; tolerate, put up with; wait; comply, submit, obey, conformSIZE=2]So, whos definition is correct

I'm not real sure that I understand your point ...? Perhaps because your point seems to so clearly resemble mine?

RJ: John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he pergeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Would you say then that everyone that is born into this world is born into Christ? Do we start our lives in the Lamb's book of life? With a place in the holy city? Then we lose it when we choose not to believe? Is that what you are suggesting?
I have no idea how you come up with that. Please show me where I said as you suggest above that: Would you say then that everyone that is born into this world is born into Christ?Then we lose it when we choose not to believe? Is that what you are suggesting? Again, I have no idea where you come up with that.

I'm sorry, I should not have made assumptions. You believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, correct? How would you interpret John 15:2? Who is the "branch"? What is "not bearing fruit?" And what is "taking away", in this verse? Please explain from your point of view? If you suggest that the branch in verse two is a non-believer then my next question to you is, how did this unbeliever get "in" Christ to begin with?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Please notice that the condition of the person in these verses has not changed at all. There is no reason to decide in one verse that they are a believer and in another that they are an unbeliever except that they did not continue to abide. You may suggest that if the person had actually been a "true" believer in the first place ( had ever been "genuinely" saved ) that they would have abided. So, for people that believe in OSAS, the only real way for you to know whether you're saved or not is if you continue to abide?

Do you believe that a person can believe that they are saved and not be? If so, what makes them different from you, RJ? What do you have that they do not have?

RJ: Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Would you say that this verse is referring to the unbelievers who have a part in the holy city and the book of life?
Again, please show where I even possibly even insinuated that? How could an unbeliever be in the Book of life...show me how I inferred that please!

Would you explain these two verses from Revelation to me, RJ? As far as I'm concerned they go right along with the Hebrews six chapter? You seem to agree with me that an unbeliever could not possibly be in the Book of Life, so who is being threatened with their removal from it? Who is losing their part in the holy city?

RJ: How can you take this description: someone who was once enlightened, someone who has tasted of the heavenly gift, someone who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost, someone who has tasted of the good word of God, someone who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, and not see that it is referring to someone who had at one time been a believer?
I see that what Paul was doing was describing to the beleivers about unbelievers that were never saved in the first place. He was telling the believers that, in fact, it was impossible for them to fall away.
Paul , in fact, even follows that up by saying if you could fall away, and then be brought back into repentance that would require you to crucify Chist all over again...read it!...and we know that is not going to happen.
Yes I choose to see what HEB 6 tells me and you choose see what it tells you.....we can the agree to disagree!

So, what you are saying is that you believe that a person can become enlightened, can taste of the heavenly gift ( which must be salvation, right? the only other heavenly gift that is ever mentioned is the Holy Ghost and it's mentioned next ), can partake of the Holy Ghost, can taste of the good word of God, can taste of the powers to come, and still not be genuinely saved? Wow!!! Have you experienced all of the things listed, RJ?

RJ: How can one claim that some "spies" who were pretending to be Christians had experienced these things?
The Bible cant tell us everything. My knowledge came about because I once thought like you but it did not fit into God's grace and it confused me,,,so I did research, looked at many a comentary and came up with my conclusion that Paul had some serious Apostates in his church calling themselves Christians but at the same time, urging their brothers to do sacrifices and circumcision. You just believe what you do or you do your own research, or not!. Regardless, this scripture is talking about apsotates....peolpe who were never saved in the first place not believers who became apsotates.
My understanding is that an unbeliever cannot possibly experience the Holy Ghost—
Exactly.... they can't! This was about unbelievers.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Are you implying that I'm confused, RJ? I don't have a problem with what I believe, and don't feel confused at all about it. I understand God's grace, but I also see in scripture where God is a God of wrath, jealousy, and judgement. A lot of people focus on nothing but the love and mercy and kindness of God, but I think that it gives them a false sense of security.

Do I not understand the word 'apostate'? Or 'depart'? Can someone leave or depart from Paris having never actually been there before? An apostate is someone who totally abandons their religion, cause, party, etc. But, you are saying that a person who was never truly a Christian to begin with is an apostate Christian?

Whatever. I see in scripture where God holds people more responsible who should have known better. He doesn't give them more of a break.

RJ: My understanding is that an unbeliever cannot possibly experience the Holy Ghost—
Exactly.... they can't! This was about unbelievers.

I am confused about this though, admittedly. It's obvious that you read these verses different than I do. Of course, I don't use commentaries, or consult preachers either. I don't trust another man to tell me what to believe.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree, though, because people that believe in OSAS have never made any sense to me with the way that they interpret scripture. Jesus said that His sheep would hear His voice. One of us might be hearing His voice, but it's unlikely that both of us are. You'll go to your death with your belief, I'll go to mine with my belief, and we'll see then who had it right, yes?

 

[RJ]

Okay, RJ


You put quotation marks around what Jesus said. I wasn't sure that you hadn't found that version of what He said in one of the many translations that we have. "And if you are in me," does not mean the same thing as, "He that abideth in me." Your "paraphrased" version ( typical of an OSASer ) removes the possible conditional from the verse.


I'm not real sure that I understand your point ...? Perhaps because your point seems to so clearly resemble mine?

I'm sorry, I should not have made assumptions. You believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, correct? How would you interpret John 15:2? Who is the "branch"? What is "not bearing fruit?" And what is "taking away", in this verse? Please explain from your point of view? If you suggest that the branch in verse two is a non-believer then my next question to you is, how did this unbeliever get "in" Christ to begin with?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Please notice that the condition of the person in these verses has not changed at all. There is no reason to decide in one verse that they are a believer and in another that they are an unbeliever except that they did not continue to abide. You may suggest that if the person had actually been a "true" believer in the first place ( had ever been "genuinely" saved ) that they would have abided. So, for people that believe in OSAS, the only real way for you to know whether you're saved or not is if you continue to abide?

Do you believe that a person can believe that they are saved and not be? If so, what makes them different from you, RJ? What do you have that they do not have?

Would you explain these two verses from Revelation to me, RJ? As far as I'm concerned they go right along with the Hebrews six chapter? You seem to agree with me that an unbeliever could not possibly be in the Book of Life, so who is being threatened with their removal from it? Who is losing their part in the holy city?

So, what you are saying is that you believe that a person can become enlightened, can taste of the heavenly gift ( which must be salvation, right? the only other heavenly gift that is ever mentioned is the Holy Ghost and it's mentioned next ), can partake of the Holy Ghost, can taste of the good word of God, can taste of the powers to come, and still not be genuinely saved? Wow!!! Have you experienced all of the things listed, RJ?



Are you implying that I'm confused, RJ? I don't have a problem with what I believe, and don't feel confused at all about it. I understand God's grace, but I also see in scripture where God is a God of wrath, jealousy, and judgement. A lot of people focus on nothing but the love and mercy and kindness of God, but I think that it gives them a false sense of security.

Do I not understand the word 'apostate'? Or 'depart'? Can someone leave or depart from Paris having never actually been there before? An apostate is someone who totally abandons their religion, cause, party, etc. But, you are saying that a person who was never truly a Christian to begin with is an apostate Christian?

Whatever. I see in scripture where God holds people more responsible who should have known better. He doesn't give them more of a break.

I am confused about this though, admittedly. It's obvious that you read these verses different than I do. Of course, I don't use commentaries, or consult preachers either. I don't trust another man to tell me what to believe.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree, though, because people that believe in OSAS have never made any sense to me with the way that they interpret scripture. Jesus said that His sheep would hear His voice. One of us might be hearing His voice, but it's unlikely that both of us are. You'll go to your death with your belief, I'll go to mine with my belief, and we'll see then who had it right, yes?

You put quotation marks around what Jesus said. I wasn't sure that you hadn't found that version of what He said in one of the many translations that we have. "And if you are in me," does not mean the same thing as, "He that abideth in me." Your "paraphrased" version ( typical of an OSASer ) removes the possible conditional from the verse.
haha..lol.. so I am a typical OSASer!!! Now I have another name to be characterized by....at least the name Christian is in there somewhere!
I believe that mine and yours both are conditional...you are either in Christ are you aren't. But let's call that one a disagreement!




I'm not real sure that I understand your point ...? Perhaps because your point seems to so clearly resemble mine?

I'm sorry, I should not have made assumptions. You believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, correct?
As far as I am concerned...yep!! so, our second disagreement!
How would you interpret John 15:2? Who is the "branch"? What is "not bearing fruit?" And what is "taking away", in this verse? Please explain from your point of view? If you suggest that the branch in verse two is a non-believer then my next question to you is, how did this unbeliever get "in" Christ to begin with?
Well, it is unforunate but no believer, which I see your not, no believer understands that we are all a creation of God and a descendant of Adam and Eve; we all are a part of God, some destined to be cut off and die Spiritually and some to be alive spiritually. So, yes that is exactly what I am saying, it is the unbeliever that is not bearing fruit and God cuts them off. This does not mean cut them off bodily or physically but, eventually cut off spiritually.....so, our 3rd disagreement!


John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Same thing. If you, man, do not abide in in Christ or become saved...your cut off!


John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Same

Please notice that the condition of the person in these verses has not changed at all. There is no reason to decide in one verse that they are a believer and in another that they are an unbeliever except that they did not continue to abide.

You may suggest that if the person had actually been a "true" believer in the first place ( had ever been "genuinely" saved ) that they would have abided.
I do indeed do suggest that!
So, for people that believe in OSAS, the only real way for you to know whether you're saved or not is if you continue to abide?
No, actuall by the word of God. And I beleive this:

When we do get off course, and we will, the Holy Spirit merely recalculates our journey and continues His work in conforming us to the image of His Son. He does so without condemnation. We are to be comfored in our hearts with this amazing promise: “that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

And, no matter how far you Non-OSASers may go, where you go when you go or, how far you think you have " fallen", with God in you, you are nevr lost. If you in fact go to Apostasy ( all out rejection of God), well then you would probably be that branch that will be cut off, because you were never saved in the first place.


Do you believe that a person can believe that they are saved and not be?
Think...yes. Believe as in faith, no! You definetly can believe is Jesus Christ and not be saved. The terms that I have heard, that there is a difference between a head Christian and a heart Christian...God lives in one and not the other.
If so, what makes them different from you, RJ? What do you have that they do not have? Like you...Christ in me!!


Would you explain these two verses from Revelation to me, RJ? As far as I'm concerned they go right along with the Hebrews six chapter? You seem to agree with me that an unbeliever could not possibly be in the Book of Life, so who is being threatened with their removal from it? Who is losing their part in the holy city?
It is the unbeleiver, the one who does not have God in them, possibly the Head Christian.

So, what you are saying is that you believe that a person can become enlightened, can taste of the heavenly gift ( which must be salvation, right?
Ah, we have come full circle. This is exactly what Paul is saying!
He is saying if a person has done all these things they are saved and it would be impossible for them to fall away to apostasy. And as I have tried to say countless times, Paul backs this up by saying....if this were possible ( which it is not) then to be brought back to full repentance, that would require man to crucify Christ again......not going to happen!

the only other heavenly gift that is ever mentioned is the Holy Ghost and it's mentioned next ), can partake of the Holy Ghost, can taste of the good word of God, can taste of the powers to come, and still not be genuinely saved? Wow!!! Have you experienced all of the things listed, RJ?



Are you implying that I'm confused, RJ? I don't have a problem with what I believe, and don't feel confused at all about it. I understand God's grace, but I also see in scripture where God is a God of wrath, jealousy, and judgement. A lot of people focus on nothing but the love and mercy and kindness of God, but I think that it gives them a false sense of security.

Do I not understand the word 'apostate'? Or 'depart'? Can someone leave or depart from Paris having never actually been there before? An apostate is someone who totally abandons their religion, cause, party, etc. But, you are saying that a person who was never truly a Christian to begin with is an apostate Christian?

Whatever. I see in scripture where God holds people more responsible who should have known better. He doesn't give them more of a break.

I am confused about this though, admittedly. It's obvious that you read these verses different than I do. Of course, I don't use commentaries, or consult preachers either. I don't trust another man to tell me what to believe.

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree, though, because people that believe in OSAS have never made any sense to me with the way that they interpret scripture. Jesus said that His sheep would hear His voice. One of us might be hearing His voice, but it's unlikely that both of us are. You'll go to your death with your belief, I'll go to mine with my belief, and we'll see then who had it right, yes?
AW...we still disagree because, this is definetly not what I am saying!!! You are saved and I am saved. Our discusssion and thoughts on this matter has nothing to do with our salvation. What it is about, is living now under the truth that Jesus said that would set you free. And again I will repeat the verse above:
“that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 1:6)

Also, as an ole' OSASer, look at this:

Ephesians 4:30

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


In other words, don't make the Holy Spirit sad for the Spirit is God's mark of ownership on you, The guarantee that the day will come when God sets you free!...and what do you think sealed means?

God Bless

 

[Stickz]

Thanks, RJ, I got the answers that I expected. The kind of answers that I usually get. Till next time.

 

[RJ]

Thanks, RJ, I got the answers that I expected. The kind of answers that I usually get. Till next time.

An the peace and the love of the the Lord to you brother!

 

[jari]

Christians can backslide, tear down the foundation of repentance that is already laid. Should they again be admitted into the church, they will have to build again the fouindation of repentance, and do their first works again.

v 1-2. 2:1-4. Rev.2.5.

1st) Who are you to say who is allowed back to church?
2nd) Bible says there is no other foundation than Christ Jesus. (1Co 3:11) What you speak of is some kind of foundation of self effort of repentance and saving your self through works.


But you have taken some verses from revelation that speak of church and apply this to individual believer? When it specifically speaks of removing the church's candlestick. What does this has to do with individuals?

I don't really know what were the other references you posted......

 

[RJ]

1st) Who are you to say who is allowed back to church?
2nd) Bible says there is no other foundation than Christ Jesus. (1Co 3:11) What you speak of is some kind of foundation of self effort of repentance and saving your self through works.


But you have taken some verses from revelation that speak of church and apply this to individual believer? When it specifically speaks of removing the church's candlestick. What does this has to do with individuals?

I don't really know what were the other references you posted......

“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.