Financial Believing

[Brother Mike]

Sorry, it's the way I worded it...

dannibear

It's the way I worded it........ Should have worded it different.


1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.


Hag 1:6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.
Hag 1:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.


Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mat 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you

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I was a pretty crummy provider for my family. Many times through the first 15 years we were without power, without food, and without things like coats, and cloth's that fit.. If someone did not buy them for us, then we would not have them..

When I got saved, I knew that things had to be better, but just could not grasp what it was...

I was like most... God provides "OUR" needs........... my great statement of faith. Just getting our needs met, and nothing else going on with God's Kingdom, or Church was top priority.

According to the Word in Hag 1:6...........and 1 Sa 2:29

Hag 1:6...........he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.

1 Sa 2:29........and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat

When any money came in, I was glad we could pay this bill, keep the power on for another month, get rent paid...... Our needs were first, and I honored my family above God....

"God just meets our needs and we are happy."

That is a poverty statement, and you hear it all the time...We have to increase our faith to think past ourselves...

What if God wanted you to pay other peoples rent, give 25,000 to help your Church with that new edition that would fit more people.. have a plane so that you or someone else can preach without being worn out and always late, taking commercial flights???

A Christians life should be all about Christ and the Church...... God first... When we get what little money we do.... God figured in first...
You can look at someones checkbook and tell right away who is really first in someones life.

A Change:

It took me awhile to get it... but I finally started to make changes.. It started by tithing... even though I did not understand the concept fully, I felt God getting the money off the top like the government does would be a good step into making God first.

Christians claim Money is not important to them.... ya, well they are broke or just blessed and fully understand money is important as a tool only. It's one or the other... You better believe they are going to pay rent before God is even considered.....

The day I decided that if God would lay it on my heart to give it.. It was given... that was the day things turned around...

ever since then, we have been coming up, and had no trouble paying bills.... If God supply's your need, and He is your source then sowing all the bill money is not a problem.... More than once God laid it on our heart to pay someones water bill, or rent, and believe for our own.. The money would just come in... someone at Church just hand us 500.00 or it just ended up paid...

God first, is a higher way to live...

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[dannibear]

That is what my post was saying earlier and I agree with you.
You gave to the Lord what was first, and in faith, depended
on God to care for your needs. And it takes faith to know
that God will provide even if you give what little you have
left. It is like in the Bible of the poor woman who gave two copper
coins, all that she had. It might have been less in earthly value,
but it was great in Heavenly value because she had faith God
would take care of her. It is the heart behind the giving, not
how much is given.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You meet your obligations first,then give to the Lord.
To take my bill money and give it to a ministry to push some greedy pastor across the sky a little faster,then pray to God for more money because pastors birthday is coming is not being a good stewart.

God wants your heart he does not need or want your money.
Where did Jesus direct us to give=to the poor..period...
The tithe is dead,God owns it all and he wants me to pay my bills help my family then bless the poor.

1Sa 2:29 Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?

Not fat ministries....The poor...which we will always have because of the hardness of our hearts.
If I tell pastor that I only have 500.00 and my mortgage is 800.00 what will pastor tell me to do???

 

[Brother Mike]

Putting God first..

The tithe is dead,God owns it all and he wants me to pay my bills help my family then bless the poor.

There can not be two first's in your life.. and nobody told you to give to any greedy Pastor... I am sure there upstanding men and women of God that are doing the will of the Lord.

Nobody said give to the Poor.. we were told to preach the gospel all over the Word.. we where not told to feed and cloth the poor all over the World, and the poor will always be around.. and there is times and ministry's set up for that.

Jesus never told all of us to sell all our goods as he did the rich young ruler... Jesus found the thing he lacked, and that was the stuff he was holding onto. It was more important than following the Lord..

You found what comes first before God... Paying your own needs... call it being a good steward, but God, or Money.. you decided what is first place, as only one thing can have that spot..

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You found what comes first before God... Paying your own needs... call it being a good steward, but God, or Money.. you decided what is first place, as only one thing can have that spot..

My bills are not my needs,they are debts that I have already incurred.
If I can't be trusted with worldly wealth then who will trust me with eternal things.It is not Godly to neglect your Family and your obligations.

Your tone is like one I hear in my own head often,...accusing...waiting...aha!!!
I don't treat that voice kindly but I want to show respect for your
beliefs.It's kind of hasty to assume you know my priorities based on one sentence without asking me to explain more fully.
Even an ungodly legal system gives me that.

Nobody said give to the Poor.. we were told to preach the gospel all over the Word.. we where not told to feed and cloth the poor all over the World, and the poor will always be around.. and there is times and ministry's set up for that.

1 John 3:17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

Rom. 15:27
For they were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to be of service to them in material blessings.

I know this is about the poor Jewish Christians in Jerusalem but in the Spirit their in neither Jew or Greek,male or female.

1 Cor.13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Ok,I only have to give everything away to be perfect,but this informs me that there is a higher call than perfect.If I'm not willing to be perfect I doubt I could ever master love.

Jesus never told all of us to sell all our goods as he did the rich young ruler... Jesus found the thing he lacked, and that was the stuff he was holding onto. It was more important than following the Lord..

Actually he said if you want to be perfect.

Matt. 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Jesus wanted us to count the cost.

It's not right to throw the children's meat to the dogs
God wants me to feed my kids first,my wife next then meet my promises and worldly obligations then feed myself then give.
Remember,Love God first,then my neighbor as myself.That includes my family and those in need.
I love you BrotherMike.

 

[Quenton]

cross...a lot of your stuff doesn't make sense but i guess i'll ask more about that than when I post my stuff

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

cross...a lot of your stuff doesn't make sense

ya,sorry that last one was a little more off the road than usual.
Quite frankly honesty is not a sought after commodity in our capitalist society.In fact in some industries it is downright discouraged or punished.At some point our walk with God could cost us severely.

"You don't understand. I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am,"

That's from the Marlon Brando movie "on the waterfront"

I like to use a combination of scripture,common sense and sometimes even science to make a point.I rarely use personal experiences for several reasons.

I have experiences with using the WoF formula that I can't share because of proverbs 10:12:

Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Love already covered it so I can't remember what it was.

All I can say is that when you play with formulas it's real easy to get caught up in trusting the formula rather than God's love that comes through and by faith.It may not displease God for us to have money but our fear of losing it may create an opportunity to an adversary.

 

[Brother Mike]

God first.

I don't meant to answer in such a short manner..

but we all are learning......

Jesus said seek first the Kingdom of God (Not heaven but God's operation and way of doing things) then all these "Things" shall be added.

Seeking our own needs first, seeking to pay off our own stuff first does not qualify us to have the "Things" add to our lives.

If God is our true source of supply and takes care of us, then considering Kingdom needs first before our own would make sense..

Hag 1:5 Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.
Hag 1:6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.

What ways was this??

AMP:

Hag 1:9 You looked for much [harvest], and behold, it came to little; and even when you brought that home, I blew it away. Why? says the Lord of hosts. Because of My house, which lies waste while you yourselves run each man to his own house [eager to build and adorn it].

Hag 1:10 Therefore the heavens above you [for your sake] withhold the dew, and the earth withholds its produce.

I am sure these men would have said.. "We are talking care of our family's.. we are being Good stewards...

but they were focused on getting their houses built up, their stuff taken Care of and not the Lord's first.... So, the heavens withheld from them dew and the Earth in it's produce.... It's not a blessed place to be.

When we put God first above our family, children, then God will put what we esteem first... that would be our family, our things, our wants...

Not considering the Work of the Lord first, tends to poverty, it tends to no opportunities, It means things that can prosper us will be missed, and not noticed.

The Lord said..

consider your ways..

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So if one is suffering poverty it is definitely their fault?
Haggai is a good example of individuals suffering for their nations disobedience.
Is it possible that certain individuals were obedient and were suffering for the nations disobedience.

I could argue that this method/formula is presumptuous.
I know God said "test me on this" but is a test supposed to be turned into a ritual.

Do you know for sure that I haven't already tested this?
Do you know for sure that I haven't already given everything?
Do you know for sure that I don't have treasure in heaven?

I have experiences with using the WoF formula that I can't share because of proverbs 10:12:

You did see this right?
Are you so certain that I even have control of anything in my life.
How do you know I'm not typing this from a mental hospital that I got thrown in for giving away all my money.

It's not wise to judge another's servant.
To his own master he will stand or fall.
There are a WIDE variety of situations in life.
Love God first,others as yourself next,maybe then formulas and rituals if the cup you have been given permits it.
Jesus didn't use his authority for personal gain.He used it to retrieve lost sheep.I intend to do likewise.

 

[Quenton]

So if one is suffering poverty it is definitely their fault?
Haggai is a good example of individuals suffering for their nations disobedience.
Is it possible that certain individuals were obedient and were suffering for the nations disobedience.

I could argue that this method/formula is presumptuous.
I know God said "test me on this" but is a test supposed to be turned into a ritual.

Do you know for sure that I haven't already tested this?
Do you know for sure that I haven't already given everything?
Do you know for sure that I don't have treasure in heaven?

You did see this right?
Are you so certain that I even have control of anything in my life.
How do you know I'm not typing this from a mental hospital that I got thrown in for giving away all my money.

It's not wise to judge another's servant.
To his own master he will stand or fall.
There are a WIDE variety of situations in life.
Love God first,others as yourself next,maybe then formulas and rituals if the cup you have been given permits it.
Jesus didn't use his authority for personal gain.He used it to retrieve lost sheep.I intend to do likewise.

Are you Jesus that you owned everything and gave it up so your sheep could have it?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Are you Jesus that you owned everything and gave it up so your sheep could have it?

Jesus could not have been tempted with "everything" if he already owned it.He gave his life not his possessions.
Satan said he owned "everything" and could give it to who he pleased. Satan offered Jesus the the kingdoms of the world.
When asked a question about paying taxes to Caesar Jesus replied
"render unto Caesar that which is Caesars".
He said "the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head".(this is really about the body of Christ)

God gives each his own cup(Jewish for destiny).

Also if you really want to know the formula you can't forget to fine tune it with this ingredient.
Matt. 6:3 But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing
Matt. 6:4 so that your giving may be done in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you

Yo,if you got a tax receipt,you got your reward
If you were seen of men,you got your reward

If I did give "all I have" I would not tell anyone because it would not be worth my reward.

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

1 Cor.13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

True gain is found in love,not formulas or rituals.
I think love is rendering unto God that which is God's.God renders unto me my needs which may include finances if you happen to live in the world of competitive commerce.

 

[Quenton]

Jesus could not have been tempted with "everything" if he already owned it.He gave his life not his possesions.
Satan said he owned "everything" and could give it to who he pleased. Satan offered Jesus the the kingdoms of the world.
When asked a question about paying taxes to Caesar Jesus replied
"render unto Caesar that which is Caesars".
He said "the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head".

God gives each his own cup(Jewish for destiny).

Also if you really want to know the formula you can't forget to fine tune it with this ingredient.
Matt. 6:3 But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing
Matt. 6:4 so that your giving may be done in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you

Yo,if you got a tax receipt,you got your reward
If you were seen of men,you got your reward

If I did give "all I have" I would not tell anyone because it would not be worth my reward.

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

True gain is found in love,not formulas or rituals.
I think love is rendering unto God that which is God's.God renders unto me my needs which may include finances if you happen to live in the world of competitive commerce.

Jesus gave up everything...and yes Satan does own the world

however...i will respond to most of this hopefully soon

i do want to ask..how does the poor give to the poor?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Silly,the poor are the only ones who will.
That's why the poor we always have with us.
It's a vicious cycle.
But I could also say there are poor so the rich have a way to repent.
BTW why do you suppose Jesus put a thief in charge of his ministries finances.

 

[Quenton]

Silly,the poor are the only ones who will.
That's why the poor we always have with us.
It's a vicious cycle.
But I could also say there are poor so the rich have a way to repent.
BTW why do you suppose Jesus put a thief in charge of his ministries finances.

no the poor can't give what they don't have

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

no the poor can't give what they don't have

Correct,in fact neither can the rich!
The poor have much that you don't seem to know about.
You forget my friend that God's math is not our math

Luke 21:2 He(Jesus) also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins.
Luke 21:3 "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others.

She is able to give MORE than the rich.

Eccl. 9:14 There was once a small city with only a few people in it. And a powerful king came against it, surrounded it and built huge siegeworks against it
Eccl. 9:15 Now there lived in that city a man poor but wise, and he saved the city by his wisdom. But nobody remembered that poor man.
Eccl. 9:16 So I said, "Wisdom is better than strength." But the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are no longer heeded.
Eccl. 9:17 Better to hear the quiet words of a wise person than the shouts of a foolish king

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

So you see the poor have riches that are not visible to the eyes of the worldly.The poor actually posses much in the way of uncorruptable goods.

1 Samuel 2:7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts.

Some argue that the Lord set up principles that if followed always have to produce the same result so that violation or compliance with those principles is what sends poverty or wealth.
This is technically true,however there are variables that plug-in this formula.

The world system is one of many factors in this formula
Eccl. 5:8 If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still.

In other(rich man) words:If my boss sees me helping the poor he will not be pleased and I could end up like the poor.Better to tow the line and not rock the boat.We don't want to anger the god of this world.

 

[Quenton]

Correct,in fact neither can the rich!
The poor have much that you don't seem to know about.
You forget my friend that God's math is not our math

Luke 21:2 He(Jesus) also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins.
Luke 21:3 "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others.

She is able to give MORE than the rich.

Eccl. 9:14 There was once a small city with only a few people in it. And a powerful king came against it, surrounded it and built huge siegeworks against it
Eccl. 9:15 Now there lived in that city a man poor but wise, and he saved the city by his wisdom. But nobody remembered that poor man.
Eccl. 9:16 So I said, "Wisdom is better than strength." But the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are no longer heeded.
Eccl. 9:17 Better to hear the quiet words of a wise person than the shouts of a foolish king

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

So you see the poor have riches that are not visible to the eyes of the worldly.The poor actually posses much in the way of uncorruptable goods.

1 Samuel 2:7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts.

Some argue that the Lord set up principles that if followed always have to produce the same result so that violation or compliance with those principles is what sends poverty or wealth.
This is technically true,however there are variables that plug-in this formula.

The world system is one of many factors in this formula
Eccl. 5:8 If you see the poor oppressed in a district, and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things; for one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still.

In other(rich man) words:If my boss sees me helping the poor he will not be pleased and I could end up like the poor.Better to tow the line and not rock the boat.We don't want to anger the god of this world.

the rich who become rich in God to get rich can give..

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

the rich who become rich in God to get rich can give

Agreed,however "rich in God" has manifold splender.

The churches in the book of Acts held everything in common.
It was,dare I say "a Communist community".
There were no rich or poor.
I am led to believe that this was the design of the Holy Spirit.

 

[s.i.e.]

the rich who become rich in God to get rich can give..

when I saw you write this, I almost couldn't believe what I was reading. Quenton - that statement is so off it squelched my normal response of chuckling at such things.

First, you don't think God would see past these people's motives in the first place? You think God didn't know that their primary motive is, using your words, to get rich?

And you think that, in spite of those warped motives, they then became rich in God, and that this "richness in God" is primarily characterised as a monetary richness? And furthermore, that God would somehow do all this SO THAT these now "rich" people would then give their money away (presumably, to the poor? Or, to partially fund a needed Jet-Plane, perhaps?)?

That is perhaps one of the more asinine things I have heard as an assessment of God's character in quite a long time, my friend.

This would imply that 1) God is an idiot and can be fooled easily 2) God grants His richness to those who come to Him with false motives 3) God somehow "needs" these rich people to help the poor, and give money away (i.e., give away more of "God's richness", on God's behalf).

Quention: your logic defies logic....needless to say, speaks heresy against the true Gospel message. I'm sure you're tired of me telling you that, but you keep bringing up new levels of self-deceit in this area, which continues to surprise me. Your thinking is twisted and warped.

 

[Quenton]

when I saw you write this, I almost couldn't believe what I was reading. Quenton - that statement is so off it squelched my normal response of chuckling at such things.

First, you don't think God would see past these people's motives in the first place? You think God didn't know that their primary motive is, using your words, to get rich?

And you think that, in spite of those warped motives, they then became rich in God, and that this "richness in God" is primarily characterised as a monetary richness? And furthermore, that God would somehow do all this SO THAT these now "rich" people would then give their money away (presumably, to the poor? Or, to partially fund a needed Jet-Plane, perhaps?)?

That is perhaps one of the more asinine things I have heard as an assessment of God's character in quite a long time, my friend.

This would imply that 1) God is an idiot and can be fooled easily 2) God grants His richness to those who come to Him with false motives 3) God somehow "needs" these rich people to help the poor, and give money away (i.e., give away more of "God's richness", on God's behalf).

Quention: your logic defies logic....needless to say, speaks heresy against the true Gospel message. I'm sure you're tired of me telling you that, but you keep bringing up new levels of self-deceit in this area, which continues to surprise me. Your thinking is twisted and warped.

simple case of one quote out of them all...

and you should watch your judgement

unless it got erased i said...God gives to those whose heart is for the ministry. Of course GOd wouldn't give to those who wasn't capable of handling it....that is stupidity and God isn't stupid why don't you consider what the sentence means next time or don't bother wasting our time with such pointless responses full of judgemetn

 

[jiggyfly]

pick up your cross is regarding sin not money.

Actually it is regarding self.