Opinions please.

[rojoloco]

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Now let's read a more accurate rendering of the passage:

to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

This passage says nothing of every individual person being foreknown, chosen, atoned for, etc. I'm not really sure what you were getting at with this passage though.

The context of it is that Paul is stating that he has been entrusted with the mysteries of God (v. 3) and was sharing them with the Ephesians (v. 4). He begins by speaking of the mystery of both Jew and Gentile being grafted into the body of Christ whereas, before, they were 2 completely different crowds who frowned up on one another. You quoted the KJV but most modern (and more accurate) translations that are based upon the Alexandrian family do not translate it in this manner. In fact, even the KJV openly admits to inserting those words in a manner to attempt clarification in their interpretation. The NASB simply translates it as the Greek lays it out. Paul was bringing to light the mysteries of God. Plain and simple.

However, even with the KJV inserting "all men" into it, it still wouldn't make a difference because of the context. "All men" is being used to denote Jews and Gentiles alike. This is because Paul just got done speaking of the mystery of God. It is speaking categorically and not individually.

 

[David777]

Yo.

Mr Rojocolo I do read your posts. You write well and I understand what your argument is about.

I can tell from your answers that you do read my posts.

I will now edit your previous post verse by verse.


"I totally agree that those whom God foreknew before the foundation of the world have a special relationship with Him. The usage of foreknow also carries with it a connotation of intimate relations."

I rather prefer the simple usage of "foreknow" or "foreknew".
You added the connotation of relationship. In my opinion God the father foreknew His son. Jesus foreknew the Jews.

"It's funny that you post this verse because, when used with the rest of Scripture, it is a very supporting verse for Election."

Yes, I agree. I had to post this verse because it is clear what the meaning of foreknew is. It has no intent of some future relationship.
How could it? Why do you say when used with the rest of scripture?

Then you performed your magic again in the following verse.

"Note who it was that was known. It's talking about Jesus. Verse 21 clarifies if there was any doubt. This is telling us that the Father foreknew Jesus in a very intimate and loving way before the foundation of the world. However, the word proginōskō also carries with it, when referring to God, a sense of purpose and ordination."

This is the point Mr Rojocolo. You are stretching proginosko to incorporate God's will. This is in your theological training to do this.
When the verse is only explaining the prior relationship between Jesus and His Father.

 

[jiggyfly]

Now let's read a more accurate rendering of the passage:



This passage says nothing of every individual person being foreknown, chosen, atoned for, etc. I'm not really sure what you were getting at with this passage though.

The context of it is that Paul is stating that he has been entrusted with the mysteries of God (v. 3) and was sharing them with the Ephesians (v. 4). He begins by speaking of the mystery of both Jew and Gentile being grafted into the body of Christ whereas, before, they were 2 completely different crowds who frowned up on one another. You quoted the KJV but most modern (and more accurate) translations that are based upon the Alexandrian family do not translate it in this manner. In fact, even the KJV openly admits to inserting those words in a manner to attempt clarification in their interpretation. The NASB simply translates it as the Greek lays it out. Paul was bringing to light the mysteries of God. Plain and simple.

However, even with the KJV inserting "all men" into it, it still wouldn't make a difference because of the context. "All men" is being used to denote Jews and Gentiles alike. This is because Paul just got done speaking of the mystery of God. It is speaking categorically and not individually.

FYI, just "men" was inserted, not "all". Look at the Greek text and you will notice the Greek word πᾶς pronounced pas meaning "all". I agree that Paul was bringing to light the mysteries of God. But to whom? Just to the "elect"? No the scripture says all.

 

[rojoloco]

FYI, just "men" was inserted, not "all". Look at the Greek text and you will notice the Greek word πᾶς pronounced pas meaning "all". I agree that Paul was bringing to light the mysteries of God. But to whom? Just to the "elect"? No the scripture says all.

You are correct in saying that they only added "men" in a sense. There is a bit of manipulation in the English wording in order to include that word in there though. In the end, I did admit it didn't really matter though. The fact was that he was sharing these mysteries with a very specific people. It was actually the church. This is stated earlier in the epistle. It was directed at believers in the church. He is sharing it with all believers. The use of "all" simply meant all whom Paul was speaking to at that particular moment; Jews and Gentiles in the church at Ephesus.

 

[David777]

What choice?

JiggyFly I have to agree with your argument, it is sound.
Mr Rojocolo is good to discuss Calvinism with.
He does read posts, he also struggles at times to explain.
Calvinism is a very difficult theology to hold together.

 

[jiggyfly]

You are correct in saying that they only added "men" in a sense. There is a bit of manipulation in the English wording in order to include that word in there though. In the end, I did admit it didn't really matter though. The fact was that he was sharing these mysteries with a very specific people. It was actually the church. This is stated earlier in the epistle. It was directed at believers in the church. He is sharing it with all believers. The use of "all" simply meant all whom Paul was speaking to at that particular moment; Jews and Gentiles in the church at Ephesus.

I disagree with you, it is not logical, why would Paul only share the good news about Christ with those who already believed the good news about Christ. It just doesn't line up with what Paul says in some other letters.

My ambition has always been to preach the Good News where the name of Christ has never been heard, rather than where a church has already been started by someone else. Romans 15:20

This same Good News that came to you is going out all over the world. It is changing lives everywhere, just as it changed yours that very first day you heard and understood the truth about God's great kindness to sinners Col. 1:6

 

[rojoloco]

I disagree with you, it is not logical, why would Paul only share the good news about Christ with those who already believed the good news about Christ. It just doesn't line up with what Paul says in some other letters.

My ambition has always been to preach the Good News where the name of Christ has never been heard, rather than where a church has already been started by someone else. Romans 15:20

This same Good News that came to you is going out all over the world. It is changing lives everywhere, just as it changed yours that very first day you heard and understood the truth about God's great kindness to sinners Col. 1:6

It isn't that he is withholding the Good News from non-believers. It's that he isn't sharing the mysteries of the Spirit with them in this instance. There is no denying that Ephesians was written to the Church at Ephesus. This was made up of Jews and Gentiles. Just as the rest of the churches of that era, they were in their infant stages. There was correction to be had in all of them, some more so than others. In the same way, there was knowledge to be gained. Paul is clearly writing to them because we know this was an epistle to them. Because of this, we know that he is uncovering the mystery of Jews & Gentiles being a part of the same family and he is uncovering it only to them. Did he share this mystery with everybody else? We have no way of knowing. What we can know is that he shared it with them. The text simply does not say he shared it with all men. It only says he is preaching to them Gentiles to tell them all about this mystery.

To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

It's even in the same sentence for crying out loud. lol

 

[B-A-C]

Predestination, freewill, the elect... ahhh... debated subjects since the beginning of Christianity.

There are several points of view on this.

1. The first thought is that we are ALL chosen by God. Every person on the earth.

1Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The Bible does say that God desires that everyone be saved. But obviously we know everyone won't be saved. The debate from this point of view generally continues down the lines of "Is God Sovereign and in control of everything"? But that is another topic.

2. A second point of view says there are certain people that God chose before the beginning of time and those are the ONLY people that will ever get saved. Everyone of these people will get saved and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The use of the word "called" is interesting in the verse above.
Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Notice the verse above says... "His will" - some believe it's his will that only 'some' people get saved, not everyone. This would seem to conflict with the verses in section1 above.

A portion of this doctrine comes from the following verses in Romans 9.

Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Notice it says that before Jacob and Esau were even born, before either one of them had ever committed a sin, he already decided their fates. It further goes on to state that our walk with God doesn't even depend on us, but upon God.

A danger with going too far along these lines is "well, God has already decided who is going to be saved, and who isn't - and there's nothing I can do about it" so why witness to anyone? Why even share the Gospel? Of course we aren't the ones who determine if someone gets saved or not.

Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Yet how can these people even decide if they want to get saved, if they've never heard of Jesus?

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

So even though God may have only called certain people to be saved, how do we know that he isn't using us personally to accomplish this goal?

3. The third thought here is much like what major league sports calls "franchise players". On a football team there are generally 44 players. (Although only 11 are playing at a given time) of these 44 players, the NFL says you can have one or two players that are protected. They will always be on your team no matter what. No one can bid for them or offer them more money or do anything to take them away from you.

Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Now the other 42 players on the team, they may come and go, and be negotiated upon (depending on their current contract) and even get traded to other teams.

The thought here is, God has chosen certain 'predestined' or 'pre-elected' people to be on his team. He has a star quarter back and a start running back (Maybe people like Martin Luther, or Dwight Moody, or John Piper, or Billy Graham.. you get the idea) and there are other people that may or may not get saved along the way, but these people are going to be on God's team no matter what.

The word elect is found 8 times in the NASB Bible. Seven of these are found in the Gospels.
3 times in Matt 24, 3 times times in Mark 13 - all of these verses are talking about the end times. It is generally accepted that verses are talking about the tribulation.

The last verse not included in the gospels is Rom 8:33
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

So rather than try to change anyone's opinion about what they believe (and it seems almost every falls into one of the camps above) we should do our best to share the Gospel and witness to everyone we can.

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mar 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

If God has pre-chosen or pre-destined them to be saved - great!! But we don't know who he has chosen and who he hasn't, so share the good news!

 

[David777]

Hello B-A-C.

You have obviously travelled this territory before B-A-C.

A very insightful explanation you provided.

"The use of the word "called" is interesting in the verse above.
Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Notice the verse above says... "His will" - some believe it's his will that only 'some' people get saved, not everyone. This would seem to conflict with the verses in section1 above."

Hard to resist is it not B-A-C.

If people become upset when they read these posts.
Then I will resist, but I do find the subject of interpretation
interesting.

We do witness to the lost by the way, B-A-C.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Predestination, freewill, the elect... ahhh... debated subjects since the beginning of Christianity.

If God has pre-chosen or pre-destined them to be saved - great!! But we don't know who he has chosen and who he hasn't, so share the good news!

Good point, B-A-C. I often wonder how effective people who get caught up in defending their doctrines are in fulfilling the Great Commission (see Mt 28:16-20).

SLE

 

[james g]

So rather than try to change anyone's opinion about what they believe (and it seems almost every falls into one of the camps above) we should do our best to share the Gospel and witness to everyone we can.

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mar 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

If God has pre-chosen or pre-destined them to be saved - great!! But we don't know who he has chosen and who he hasn't, so share the good news!

preach the gospel