Opinions please.

[David777]

Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

I am interested in the precise meaning of Romans 8:29.

This passage seems to form a theological divide within Christendom.
For Augustine, Romans 8:29, concerns individual election. A rather complex interpretation in the light of the Soveriegnty of God. Oh, the mysteries of God's individual choice. Or is it the only interpretation.

I will attempt to explain the interpretation of Romans 8:29 in context of the letter to the Romans. Also, to interpret the passage correctly in the only context possible.

I do believe I can prove this interpretation.

A small introduction to the context of Romans 8:29.
The preceeding chapter to Romans 8.
Romans 7:1, "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction..."
Romans 7:25, "...with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin..."
Summary, law, flesh and the spirit. Specifically talking to the Jews.

Now Romans 9. Paul wishes he was seperated from God for his kinsmen, Israel.

Romans 10. The subject Israel.

Romans 11. The subject Israel.

Now that the context of Romans 8 has been established. Israel is the only possible choice.

Lets move onto the passage itself, Romans 8:29.
There are two words of significance. These two words are the key words in unlocking this passage, "those" and "foreknew". The latter is especially difficult. But, there is a specific use of "forknew" later in Romans 11:2. I will directly compare the two passages to derive the meaning. All in context of course.

Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For those whom He foreknew..."
"those" pronoun, meaning "that group".

The second word "foreknew" is more difficult.
"foreknew"
4267 proginsko (from 4253 /pro, "before" and 1097 /ginsko, "to know")

This is the same precise usage as in Romans 11:2
"foreknew"
4267 proginsko (from 4253 /pro, "before" and 1097 /ginsko, "to know")

This the same word in the Greek. There both from the same Greek source word "proginosko". Before, a knowledge of. To know before. To have a previous knowledge of.

This is especially true of Romans 11:2. In Romans 11:2, "proginosko", the verb has this precise meaning and only this meaning.

At this stage a transliteration in context is possible.

Romans 8:29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..."

Transliteration,
"For Israel whom The Father foreknew, The Father in addition predestined to become conformed to the image of The Father's Son."

Note: "also" could transliterate to "in addition". This word "also" gives the passage away. Since it is an election in addition to some other election.

I had no choice, Romans 11:2, plus Romans chapters 7, 9,10,11. Provided no alternative.

Further, the understanding of predestined is seen not as a future act of will.
Rather, Christ is predestined from eternity, hence, Israel is in that sense will as a result of Christ, also be predestined. Israel is not predestined apart from Christ.

Christ is always pre-eminent. This is in fact what Paul argues in Romans chapters 9,10,11.

So the reading of Romans 8:29-30 is obvious in context of the book of Romans.

Does anyone agree with this way of looking at Romans 8:29-30. I just cannot see how how an individuals election is possible, considering context. Or am I alone in how I read this passage. I hope not.
Calvin would have tortured and executed me for this rendering of Romans 8:29.

Interested in the way anyone else could read this passage concious of context?

Especially of the same usage of the same word "foreknew" in Romans 11:2.

 

[yort]

The "they" I believe isn't limited to Israel anymore due to rejection of Christ, which in turn now has opened the gospel up to all.

The "forknew", teaders on that subject of who He has elected or predestined, that of course being simple enough-Those that believe. Now who would believe? His sheep, who are they? Those that know His voice, who knows His voice, Those that the Father has given Him

Sorry if I rambled, its early. I'm not sure if I'm on the same page.

Ok anyways, like the fact you spend time in scriptures to unfold those great & wonderful mysteries.
Troy

 

[judge not]

Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

I am interested in the precise meaning of Romans 8:29.

This passage seems to form a theological divide within Christendom.
For Augustine, Romans 8:29, concerns individual election. A rather complex interpretation in the light of the Soveriegnty of God. Oh, the mysteries of God's individual choice. Or is it the only interpretation.

I will attempt to explain the interpretation of Romans 8:29 in context of the letter to the Romans. Also, to interpret the passage correctly in the only context possible.

I do believe I can prove this interpretation.

A small introduction to the context of Romans 8:29.
The preceeding chapter to Romans 8.
Romans 7:1, "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction..."
Romans 7:25, "...with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin..."
Summary, law, flesh and the spirit. Specifically talking to the Jews.

Now Romans 9. Paul wishes he was seperated from God for his kinsmen, Israel.

Romans 10. The subject Israel.

Romans 11. The subject Israel.

Now that the context of Romans 8 has been established. Israel is the only possible choice.

Lets move onto the passage itself, Romans 8:29.
There are two words of significance. These two words are the key words in unlocking this passage, "those" and "foreknew". The latter is especially difficult. But, there is a specific use of "forknew" later in Romans 11:2. I will directly compare the two passages to derive the meaning. All in context of course.

Romans 8:29 (NASB)
29 "For those whom He foreknew..."
"those" pronoun, meaning "that group".

The second word "foreknew" is more difficult.
"foreknew"
4267 proginsko (from 4253 /pro, "before" and 1097 /ginsko, "to know")

This is the same precise usage as in Romans 11:2
"foreknew"
4267 proginsko (from 4253 /pro, "before" and 1097 /ginsko, "to know")

This the same word in the Greek. There both from the same Greek source word "proginosko". Before, a knowledge of. To know before. To have a previous knowledge of.

This is especially true of Romans 11:2. In Romans 11:2, "proginosko", the verb has this precise meaning and only this meaning.

At this stage a transliteration in context is possible.

Romans 8:29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..."

Transliteration,
"For Israel whom The Father foreknew, The Father in addition predestined to become conformed to the image of The Father's Son."

Note: "also" could transliterate to "in addition". This word "also" gives the passage away. Since it is an election in addition to some other election.

I had no choice, Romans 11:2, plus Romans chapters 7, 9,10,11. Provided no alternative.

Further, the understanding of predestined is seen not as a future act of will.
Rather, Christ is predestined from eternity, hence, Israel is in that sense will as a result of Christ, also be predestined. Israel is not predestined apart from Christ.

Christ is always pre-eminent. This is in fact what Paul argues in Romans chapters 9,10,11.

So the reading of Romans 8:29-30 is obvious in context of the book of Romans.

Does anyone agree with this way of looking at Romans 8:29-30. I just cannot see how how an individuals election is possible, considering context. Or am I alone in how I read this passage. I hope not.
Calvin would have tortured and executed me for this rendering of Romans 8:29.

Interested in the way anyone else could read this passage concious of context?

Especially of the same usage of the same word "foreknew" in Romans 11:2.

Trying to study this area as well-Does "foreknowledge" suggest that God determined thousands of years ago who would be saved and who would not? Or does it just mean that God knew us before we knew Him.
I always understood the term "predestination " simply suggests that God has predetermined the destiny of those He calls, but does not indicate that He has predetermined whether they will remain faithful to their calling. could this be speaking of conditions believers must meet in order to continue in justification?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I always understood the
term "predestination " simply suggests that God has predetermined the destiny of those He calls, but does not indicate that He has predetermined whether they will remain faithful to their calling. could this be speaking of conditions believers must meet in order to continue in justification?

We must remember that God has the authority to limit/control how He uses His power. I believe that means that He has known for all eternity who will be saved, but, He has chosen, for the sake of His holy name, to not interfere in the individual's choice in the matter.

SLE

 

[David777]

More to the point.

God is soveriegn. No argument.
God is Love. No argument.
God knows who will be saved, of course He does.
Atonement is for all creation. No argument.

The foreknew in Romans is referring to Israel.
Those He previously knew, obviously. Check Romans 11:2.
This is not a proof text for individual election!
Augustine is mistaken.

This alters the concept of "once saved always saved".

All are called. Holy Spirit convicts the World.

Those who come to Christ become the elect.

Live in Christ, the Spirit, put to death the deeds
of the flesh, live for ever.

Live by the flesh, judgement and death.

This is what Romans says.

 

[gentle]

Romans 8:29,30

I think that when we become born again all what's written in the bible, God's promises and commandments pertain and belong to us as Christians, because we're now Israelites in the spirit. There's no more boundaries between Jews(God's people or gentiles-Eph.2) To us who believe in Jesus Christ God's Son, God knows already that we're His and that we're patterned and to be like Jesus. He predestined us, called us, justified us and glorified us. O what a plan of God for me, us. Praise the Lord!

 

[judge not]

We must remember that God has the authority to limit/control how He uses His power. I believe that means that He has known for all eternity who will be saved, but, He has chosen, for the sake of His holy name, to not interfere in the individual's choice in the matter.

SLE

If salvation is predetermined for only some does that mean the rest are already foreordained by God to eternal condemnation having been doomed to a hopeless fate before even coming into existence

 

[David777]

All

In Jesus Christ salvation is for everyone, the whole human race.

Some resist the Holy Spirit. They love the things of the World.

All are deceived by Satan to some degree.

God has no favourites among the human race.

God does not predetermine an individual's salvation.

It is predetermined in Jesus Christ.

"For God so loved the World",etc.

God does not want anyone to perish.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

If salvation is predetermined for only some does that mean the rest are already foreordained by God to eternal condemnation having been doomed to a hopeless fate before even coming into existence

As my post, which you cited, says, God has chosen to not interfere in individual peoples' choices. Jesus said, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself Jn 12:32 NIV). The choice has been left to the individual even though God has known from eternity what the choice will be.

SLE

 

[David777]

Yes, SpiritLed.

Obviously, God knows.

In Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, we have been predestined only in Christ.

The Gospel is for everyone.

No bending of the scripture.

All Scripture, and I mean all scripture. No missing passages.

God is certainly not unfair in any matter.

 

[james g]

<DIR><DIR>1C 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.1C 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long,is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1Co 13:11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. </DIR></DIR>

 

[stephen]

I pray like a Calvenist thanking God that he included me, thank you Jesus, in the great plan of Salvation.

But I preach and witness like an Arminian for I am fully aware that God loves all men equally. It is not His will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[David777]

Nice reply Stephen.

You said,

"But I preach and witness like an Arminian for I am fully aware that God loves all men equally. It is not His will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

I rejoice in Jesus Christ that He loves all men and women.

I never pray like a Calvinist.

Thanks Stephen

 

[Brighthouse]

Love has no rules except one!! To always do it!! amen!

 

[Iceman]

The problem, is the contextual setting that has been placed on the verse. It is not enough to point to whole chapters and go "Israel" especially when large parts of Romans deal with the Gentiles. It would be easy to just point to those sections and go "Gentile".

In whole of the Pauline corpus it must be remember that Paul sees himself as the Apostle to the Gentiles, but also, that he did not found the community at Rome. It exists independant to the Pauline communities, but, having a Gentile setting, Paul sees it as falling under his juristiction. Due to the evangelisitic method evident from the Pauline corpus and the literary content of Romans, it is more likely that Romans is written to a join community that, much like Galatians, is struggling with the identity of the People of God.

8:29. The verb progignoskein here, as in 11:2 reflects a Biblical idiom where "fore-kbowledge" connotes "choice" and "election" (cf. Gen 18:19, Jer 1:5, Hos 13:5, Amod 3:2 and 1QH 9:29-30.

It is acurate to place the election upon the community of God, instead of upon an individual, however, to fit that election upon only Israel would be a misrepresentation of Pauline theology. After all, in Galatians Paul says that the covenant to Abraham was only for Jesus, not the Israelites. Here, Paul is applying the idea of election to the Christian community, which is communally made of both Jew and Gentile.

11:2 Paul uses a familiar way of alluding to scriptural sequence concerning a particular character. The usage is not affirming election upon the Israelites, such a position goes against the chronologically earlier epistles of Paul that well establishes his position on the identity of the People of God, but it is more about the role of Elijah as he complains to God about Israel.

 

[rojoloco]

Trying to study this area as well-Does "foreknowledge" suggest that God determined thousands of years ago who would be saved and who would not? Or does it just mean that God knew us before we knew Him.
I always understood the term "predestination " simply suggests that God has predetermined the destiny of those He calls, but does not indicate that He has predetermined whether they will remain faithful to their calling. could this be speaking of conditions believers must meet in order to continue in justification?

Not only has God elected some out of the many but He also preserves His own. He elected us (Ephesians 1:5) based on the good purpose of His Will (Ephesians 1:11), He calls us (Romans 9:24), and He keeps us (Jude 1) as He perfects His work in us (Philippians 1:6).

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[rojoloco]

We must remember that God has the authority to limit/control how He uses His power. I believe that means that He has known for all eternity who will be saved, but, He has chosen, for the sake of His holy name, to not interfere in the individual's choice in the matter.

SLE

While you are free to believe this, you are also compelled to admit it is a purely extrabiblical doctrine based on man trying to define what he thinks God will or will not do. Simply put, this belief is not in Scripture in any way, shape, or form.

 

[rojoloco]

God is soveriegn. No argument.
God is Love. No argument.
God knows who will be saved, of course He does.

Agreed in full.

Atonement is for all creation. No argument.

Disagree in full. Not one for whom Christ died will ever see Hell. If Christ died for all, all would be saved otherwise it renders the blood powerless. Scripture is clear that Christ died for His own.

The foreknew in Romans is referring to Israel.

We've been through this in another thread and I showed how this cannot possibly be the case. In Romans 1:6, we see Paul is writing to the church of Rome. Throughout the next several chapters, we see that the church of Rome is made up primarily of Gentiles. Furthermore, we see that Paul refers to the called as "us" which places Jews and Gentiles alike in the category.

Those He previously knew, obviously. Check Romans 11:2.
This is not a proof text for individual election!
Augustine is mistaken.

False.

This alters the concept of "once saved always saved".

Actually, it doesn't. Please read my reply in that other thread.

All are called. Holy Spirit convicts the World.

Then all would be saved. Either that or Jude is lying.

Those who come to Christ become the elect.

Considering election is something that took place before the foundation of the world, election must come before anybody can come to Christ. This is evident by our depraved nature and the fact that the unregenerate man simply cannot come to Christ because he cannot understand the things of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[rojoloco]

As my post, which you cited, says, God has chosen to not interfere in individual peoples' choices. Jesus said, "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself Jn 12:32 NIV). The choice has been left to the individual even though God has known from eternity what the choice will be.

SLE

SLE, the "all men" that it is referring to is not all men without exception. It is all men without distinction. It means both Jew and Gentile. The entire concept of free will (as many think of it) is found nowhere in the Bible. Martin Luther covers this in great detail in The Bondage of the Will which he wrote in 1525. It is one of my favorite books. I just couldn't put it down.

 

[David777]

Dear Mr Rojocolo

You said,

Romans 11:2 in reference to Romans 8:29 was false.

Mr Rojocolo, Paul says "God has not rejected those He foreknew"

Paul in Romans 11:2 is specifically identifying the Jews.

Has God rejected the Jews with the advent of Christ. No says Paul.

Now the foreknew used here is the same as in Romans 8:29.