Rapture: Before or After?

[AudreyNicole]

Will the rapture happen before or after the tribulation period?

I was thinking it was before, but then I heard a sermon that made me think twice. In many of the examples of God's wrath in the Bible, God led His people through suffering, not take them out of it. Like Noah, or Job, or the Hebrews and Moses... God did not take them out of the suffering, He kept them safe during it. So wouldn't the same be true for the second coming of Christ?

 

[ctsracing]

Depends on what you mean by Tribulation (you'll have to see my thread: Pre Scroll rapture); but that's for another time.
The rapture and 2nd coming our 2 destinct events seperate from each other; both in design, motive, and purpose. Look at the 'fanfare' involved in each: rapture is just Michael & Jesus, and a trumpet - steath in nature. Very fast and efficient. The 2nd coming, on the other hand... - well you can just imagine. Set off the fireworks, for the Lord of Lords is going to clean house.

Ask yourself the BIG Q - What purpose is there of God for designing such an event?! - a 'full-blown, 'full scale' removal of His church from the earth. Why would He do such a thing? God doesn't do things just for the fun of it, or to get a 'kick' out of it. God is not vain.

If the church were still here, then why the need for the replacement 'Great Commision' team: 144,000, 2 witnesses, and at least 1 angel (Rev14:6)
No where in all the Bible does it mention the church's prescence or protection from the judgements of God while still being present for them. It wasn't till the last 7 plagues that God made a distinction between His people and Egypt. For Israel, it was a lot easier for God to make that distinction because of geographical means. But with us; we are all intermingled through out the whole world. The only way to be protected from this geographical world wide event is a complete removal. Lot and Noah were 'removed' from the judgement site. - The main purpose of the rapture is an 'evacuation plan'.
I also think that another reason for the rapture is so that God can make that distinction between His people and the rest of the world. Can you imagine if the church were to go, and suffer, the same judgements as the rest of humanity; how vain any witnessing would be -
Expecting some one to come to Christ and still suffer the same torture. Why would anyone give their lives to Christ seeing that the punishment still continues even when becoming a christian. They would see that being a Christian didn't matter, that they both were doomed to destruction; and how this God treats His followers.
The rapture would show that there was a way to get out from encountering His judgements, and that through that suffering would give their lives to Him with the hope of being united to Him just as all those who were RAPTURED.

 

[SavedByHim]

I hope I am wrong, but the Bible seems pretty clear to me that the "Rapture" will not occur until the very END of the world....after the Antichrist, after the Tribulation, after all the bad stuff, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc. etc.

There is one or two verses that implies that it could be in the middle of the Tribulation...."after the Antichrist is revealed". I think it's in Daniel 12 if I remember right.

A lot of people say that Christians are not to undergo the wrath of God-that's one reason they believe that the Rapture will be BEFORE the Tribulation. ....

But the thing is....the Tribulation is not the wrath of God I don't think....the very End, when the world is destroyed "by the elements" (I think this is a nuclear bomb probably), and the unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire....I think THIS is the "wrath of God". I think the Tribulation is merely the "testing" and the separation of the sheep and the goats....it is the time where we have to stand firm and hold fast to our Savior, Jesus Christ! Because Jesus said....those who endure TILL THE END will be saved.

Just my opinion.

 

[AudreyNicole]

I hope I am wrong, but the Bible seems pretty clear to me that the "Rapture" will not occur until the very END of the world....after the Antichrist, after the Tribulation, after all the bad stuff, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc. etc.

There is one or two verses that implies that it could be in the middle of the Tribulation...."after the Antichrist is revealed". I think it's in Daniel 12 if I remember right.

A lot of people say that Christians are not to undergo the wrath of God-that's one reason they believe that the Rapture will be BEFORE the Tribulation. ....

But the thing is....the Tribulation is not the wrath of God I don't think....the very End, when the world is destroyed "by the elements" (I think this is a nuclear bomb probably), and the unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire....I think THIS is the "wrath of God". I think the Tribulation is merely the "testing" and the separation of the sheep and the goats....it is the time where we have to stand firm and hold fast to our Savior, Jesus Christ! Because Jesus said....those who endure TILL THE END will be saved.

Just my opinion.

I kind of agree with you too. This used to scare me too, thinking of going through all that chaos! But no need to be scared because the Bible teaches us many times that God will guide us through suffering. And especially if you relate it to Moses and the Hebrews and how God protected His people through that. Remember they put the blood of the lamb on the door frames and this protected them.



"Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household… take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs."

​

This seems to relate very closely:

"About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die...There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt, worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal." Then you will know that the Lord makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.

​

Hmmmm....

 

[AudreyNicole]

Depends on what you mean by Tribulation (you'll have to see my thread: Pre Scroll rapture); but that's for another time.
The rapture and 2nd coming our 2 destinct events seperate from each other; both in design, motive, and purpose. Look at the 'fanfare' involved in each: rapture is just Michael & Jesus, and a trumpet - steath in nature. Very fast and efficient. The 2nd coming, on the other hand... - well you can just imagine. Set off the fireworks, for the Lord of Lords is going to clean house.

Ask yourself the BIG Q - What purpose is there of God for designing such an event?! - a 'full-blown, 'full scale' removal of His church from the earth. Why would He do such a thing? God doesn't do things just for the fun of it, or to get a 'kick' out of it. God is not vain.

If the church were still here, then why the need for the replacement 'Great Commision' team: 144,000, 2 witnesses, and at least 1 angel (Rev14:6)
No where in all the Bible does it mention the church's prescence or protection from the judgements of God while still being present for them. It wasn't till the last 7 plagues that God made a distinction between His people and Egypt. For Israel, it was a lot easier for God to make that distinction because of geographical means. But with us; we are all intermingled through out the whole world. The only way to be protected from this geographical world wide event is a complete removal. Lot and Noah were 'removed' from the judgement site. - The main purpose of the rapture is an 'evacuation plan'.
I also think that another reason for the rapture is so that God can make that distinction between His people and the rest of the world. Can you imagine if the church were to go, and suffer, the same judgements as the rest of humanity; how vain any witnessing would be -
Expecting some one to come to Christ and still suffer the same torture. Why would anyone give their lives to Christ seeing that the punishment still continues even when becoming a christian. They would see that being a Christian didn't matter, that they both were doomed to destruction; and how this God treats His followers.
The rapture would show that there was a way to get out from encountering His judgements, and that through that suffering would give their lives to Him with the hope of being united to Him just as all those who were RAPTURED.

So are you saying you think the rapture is before the 7 year tribulation period??

 

[David777]

Fascinating topic Audrey

Joel 2:30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire and columns of smoke." Before the end of course. This is a verse that may lean towards nuclear war.

I remember, years ago, studying eschatology. I ended up with a pre-tribulation, premillenial viewpoint. But, I am open on the subject.

Paul does state in Thessalonians that the antichrist must first be revealed.

Also, there is a great falling away from the church in the end times.

No doubt it will get tougher as we go, but God also pours out His love more.

Bring it on, we cannot lose.

 

[ctsracing]

So are you saying you think the rapture is before the 7 year tribulation period??

Read my view point in the 'Pre-scroll rapture' thread in this 'Bible Study Hall' section. - No where in the Bible is it stated that the Tribulation consumes the whole 7 yr. period - in fact, the 7yr. period is mentioned no where else except in Daniel 9. All other verses have to deal with the 3.5 yr (half 7 yr. period) and the 'Abomination that causes Desolation'. It is my interpretation of scripture that the rapture will happen before Jesus opens up the Scroll in Rev. 5; which I believe the 'Abomination that causes Desolation' act is the catalyst for Jesus to open up the Scroll.

If the Rapture is part of the 2nd coming sequence, then this is how it would play out:
Jesus mounts His white horse along with the hosts of heaven. They approach earth to 'clean house'. When they get to the clouds, all christians are lifted off the face of the earth to meet Him in the air (dead 1st, then all us cristians who are alive). We greet, and then: either go seperate ways (us to heaven - Jesus to earth to 'clean house') or, immediately do an 'about face' and join Jesus in Armageddon. -I'm sorry, but that sounds ridiculous to me and doesn't fit the personality of our God.

 

[ctsracing]

...after the AC is revealed is located in II Thess 2:2
Edit: David777 answered this already. How did I miss reading that?

 

[ctsracing]

I just want to add that God did not protect Lot by having him stay at Sodom and then destroy the rest of Sodom with Lot's house being the last (and only) house standing. God completely removed him geographically from the judgement site

God did not have provide a vortex in the flood waters so that
noah, family, and animals would be safe while the rest of earth is 'cleansed'. He has them completely 'rise above' the judgement site.

Israel (in Goshen) was already seperated geographically; much different than today when you have the 'wheat & tares' groing together.

Understand that the Scroll isn't just about the judgement of God; it is the dismantling of the earth also, to bring in the new earth and the new Jerusalem. The Scroll could be considered to be the Earth's Last Will & Testament; and can only be opened by the One who owns the Title Deed to the Earth - Jesus!

 

[AudreyNicole]

I just want to add that God did not protect Lot by having him stay at Sodom and then destroy the rest of Sodom with Lot's house being the last (and only) house standing. God completely removed him geographically from the judgement site

God did not have provide a vortex in the flood waters so that
noah, family, and animals would be safe while the rest of earth is 'cleansed'. He has them completely 'rise above' the judgement site.

Israel (in Goshen) was already seperated geographically; much different than today when you have the 'wheat & tares' groing together.

Understand that the Scroll isn't just about the judgement of God; it is the dismantling of the earth also, to bring in the new earth and the new Jerusalem. The Scroll could be considered to be the Earth's Last Will & Testament; and can only be opened by the One who owns the Title Deed to the Earth - Jesus!

Hmmmmmmmm......... very interesting

 

[just-a-servant]

I hope I am wrong, but the Bible seems pretty clear to me that the "Rapture" will not occur until the very END of the world....after the Antichrist, after the Tribulation, after all the bad stuff, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc. etc.

There is one or two verses that implies that it could be in the middle of the Tribulation...."after the Antichrist is revealed". I think it's in Daniel 12 if I remember right.

A lot of people say that Christians are not to undergo the wrath of God-that's one reason they believe that the Rapture will be BEFORE the Tribulation. ....

But the thing is....the Tribulation is not the wrath of God I don't think....the very End, when the world is destroyed "by the elements" (I think this is a nuclear bomb probably), and the unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire....I think THIS is the "wrath of God". I think the Tribulation is merely the "testing" and the separation of the sheep and the goats....it is the time where we have to stand firm and hold fast to our Savior, Jesus Christ! Because Jesus said....those who endure TILL THE END will be saved.

Just my opinion.

I believe you are correct, SavedByHim. You have to do a lot of scripture twisting to come to any other conclusion. The time of God's wrath is at the end; Where at the end, only He knows. The tribulation is certainly in our future as spoken by Jesus in Matt 24. It is those whose faith gets them to the end who will be saved. Are you ready?

I just want to add that God did not protect Lot by having him stay at Sodom and then destroy the rest of Sodom with Lot's house being the last (and only) house standing. God completely removed him geographically from the judgement site

God did not have provide a vortex in the flood waters so that
noah, family, and animals would be safe while the rest of earth is 'cleansed'. He has them completely 'rise above' the judgement site.

Israel (in Goshen) was already seperated geographically; much different than today when you have the 'wheat & tares' groing together.

Understand that the Scroll isn't just about the judgement of God; it is the dismantling of the earth also, to bring in the new earth and the new Jerusalem. The Scroll could be considered to be the Earth's Last Will & Testament; and can only be opened by the One who owns the Title Deed to the Earth - Jesus!

cts:

As a point in fact, God did not remove Lot from Sodom. Instead He provided for him and his family a guide(s) and a way out. Lot made the trip on his own two feet.

God did not cause Noah and his family to rise above the storm and flood, rather he provided shelter and a safe place to weather the storm. They still had to go through it and ride out the torrent created by it.

As far as the comparison of Israel in Goshen, the judgment was on the Egyptians primarily and not intended for the chastisement of Israel. In the end times, this will not be the case. The judgment will be for all mankind - only excluding the faithful believers and the 144,000 sealed Jewish remnant. That doesn't mean the believers won't feel the latent effects of the judgments, it just means they won't be directed at them (like Noah).

You might want to re-examine your "scroll" thinking. There are errors needing to be re-thought.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[ctsracing]

For those who believe in post-trib, when exactly do you see the rapture taking place at the 'END'?
At the same time as 2nd coming of Christ? (Rev. 19: 11-18)
Shortly before?
Slightly after?
Other?
I see a huge difference in 'personale' from I Thess. 4:16 vs Rev. 19:14.
What would be the purpose of the rapture in this time frame: Just a logistics move (picking up the 'leftovers') for any Christian left?

-Just trying to get a better handle on this view.

 

[ctsracing]

Just-a-servent, Sure, Lot walked out on his own 2 feet - Ok, maybe he ran too! . But he had a place to run to. During God's judgements, there isn't going to be a place to run and hide. Reading Rev. 8, 9, 16, there is no escape from experiencing the full effect of the devestation that is listed; whether christian or not. There isn't going to be much of the earth left habital when Jesus comes.

HaHa! I bet Noah wished he had the rapture plan available to him (and animals) instead of x number of years of painstaking labour of building the ark.

 

[happyharold4]

Mid trib here---But am prepared to go all the way trusting in my Jesus and overcoming by my testimony in Him if mistaken.

Happy

 

[AudreyNicole]

am prepared to go all the way trusting in my Jesus and overcoming by my testimony in Him if mistaken.

Happy

I most certainly agree! I don't think anyone knows for sure... personally I think its after the tribulation... but if I am wrong, oh well. It's nice to know we have a God that will protect us through whatever happens and whenever it happens

 

[Stickz]

AudreyNicole: Will the rapture happen before or after the tribulation period?

I was thinking it was before, but then I heard a sermon that made me think twice. In many of the examples of God's wrath in the Bible, God led His people through suffering, not take them out of it. Like Noah, or Job, or the Hebrews and Moses... God did not take them out of the suffering, He kept them safe during it. So wouldn't the same be true for the second coming of Christ?

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered the ark,

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

I find the following two verses to be very interesting in this age of grace, when preachers teach that once we are saved, we are always saved. Why remind of Lot's wife?

Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Anyway, back to the original subject.

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

I Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

I Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

I am going to prepare myself to keep the faith until the end of the world. Or until the end of my life, which ever comes first. I do not expect a pretribulation rapture.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This is where I expect Jesus to return. The scriptures tell me that there will be one gathering, and only one. And I believe it to be when the two witnesses are called up. At the last trump.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.