why do people reject jesus

rojoloco · Jan 8, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
Dear Rojoloco,
I read your profile and saw that you are currently serving in the Navy. I served from 85 - 89 as a Navy Supply Corps. officer and was also stationed in San Diego. I served on the USS O'Brien (DD-975) and the USS Frederick (LST-1184). Are you serving on a ship or shore?

The O'Brien was out in Japan for a while when I was stationed out there. I've been on the USS Cowpens and USS Benfold as well as a shore tour in between. I am on USS Benfold now.

Joe in Arkansas said:
I enjoyed reading your post and must say that I agree with you completely on the points that you made. God is in complete control of our salvation, we are not the cause of it in any way. Though you did not say, I assume that you believe in the doctrine of hell and believe that most of mankind will spend eternity there. If you look back at my posts on this thread, you will find that I do not agree with that understanding of scripture.

I do fully believe in the doctrine of eternal Hell. I do not believe in Universalism where all people will be saved. In fact, I believe Scripture declares the exact opposite. Since you enjoyed reading my sermon on Total Depravity, I will also post one I wrote titled One Way Street. It deals with this subject. I hope you enjoy that one as well.

Joe in Arkansas said:
I do agree that we are saved by grace through faith. However, grace is not what the mainstream church believes it is. It is not simply a "pardon" requiring nothing but a 10 second sinners prayer to receive it. Grace teaches and chastises us to forsake ungodliness. It teaches us through the Word of God and by judgment. It causes us to seek Him and to love Him. It causes our spiritual blindness to be healed so that we can see the true Christ and hears His words. It causes us to mature in Christ and not remain babes in Christ (who are no different than a bond servant and will not be heirs to the promise).

I believe we are saved by grace through faith just as you. However, I think we differ on our understanding of grace. I believe God shows common grace to all mankind. He lets the rain fall on both. He lets the sun shine on both. However, saving grace is something reserved for His Elect whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world. We are indeed the recipients of God's grace but it is not grace which conforms us to Christ. That is the process of sanctification. Sanctification is what helps us mature. Sanctification is what helps us grow in Christ. God first shows us His grace. He then calls us with His effectual call. The Spirit then regenerates us and gives us a heart of flesh causing us to die to self and rise in Christ through our new found faith. At this point, we begin the process of sanctification that will last the rest of our life. We are considered fully justified at this point because of the atoning blood of Christ. However, we are far from glorified despite being viewed as righteous in the eyes of God. Upon death, we become fully glorified and are reunited with God. As Paul said, it is better to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. Salvation is not simply a pardon (see my thread titled Ticket To Heaven). This is a weak teaching that man has created that is contrary to what Scripture teaches. Our salvation is very real and very complete but we are still in a constant state of sanctification until we reach Heaven in glorification. We may not be struggling for salvation but we are most certainly struggling to be conformed to the mind of Christ in all we do.

Joe in Arkansas said:
All that Christ does for us to be fully made into God's image is grace. We deserve nothing and are nothing. It is simply by God's choosing that we can be saved into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since He is the one who chooses us and loves us, He has promised to save us all. Do you agree with that statement?

I agree with the first 3 sentences. However, the 4th sentence I find to be in error. In fact, Scripture is quite clear that many will suffer and never be reconciled to the Father. This is where I will post my other sermon. Hopefully, it will shed some light on the subject for you to at least see where I am coming from. I believe Universalism to be contrary to the Gospel and actually contrary to the love of God. Anyway, enjoy the read:

One Way Street

The world is a confused place. It seems everybody has their own idea of who God really is. Some believe He is nature. Some believe He is in statues. Some believe He is non-existent. Some believe He is universal. Everybody has their belief however, not all beliefs of God are based on God’s own Word. Scripture tells us much of who God is. It also tells us much of how we are reconciled to Him.

Universalism has become very popular in our society. Nobody wants to believe in a God who would send people to Hell simply because they have a different belief from Christians. Wouldn’t that be unfair? Wouldn’t it be wrong for God to send everybody from a secluded tribe to Hell when they never had a chance to hear the Gospel? Isn’t it kind of arrogant to say one belief is superior to another?

Ask congregation if they believe there are multiple ways to God.

I’d like to go back to one of the questions I just asked. While they were rhetorical is my usage of them, they are very real questions that have been posed to me by others. The question is, “Wouldn’t it be wrong for God to send everybody from a secluded tribe to Hell when they never had a chance to hear the Gospel?” As always, I will reply with Scripture.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

It doesn’t get any clearer. All men are without excuse. Man is held accountable to God just by the proof of nature. No man is innocent. Ignorance is no excuse.

Universalism claims that everyone will go to Heaven and that all paths lead there so long as one is sincere in their dedication to their god. It teaches that since God is all loving and is fair that He wouldn’t possibly send men to Hell just because they believed something different because of the culture they grew up in. That can’t possibly be their fault. God would never hold them accountable.

Muhammad Ali
Rivers, ponds, lakes and streams – they all have different names, but they all contain water. Just as all religions do – they all contain truths.

This is dangerous thinking that leads many to Hell.

Matthew 19:24
"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

If all roads lead to salvation, why is it that Scripture is so adamant that few will find it? Why does it say how difficult it is for one to find it? In fact, Matthew tells us that all paths lead to destruction with only one path leading to life. The Bible is very clear on this matter. With this established, the next step is to identify that path.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM";

John 8:54
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

I Am is the name God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14. While John 8:24 may say “believe that I am He,” the original Greek did not have the word “He.” This was later added in for clarity. The literal translation would be, “unless you believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.” This was Jesus himself claiming his deity. He was claiming to be God Almighty by claiming to be I Am.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 21:6
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

John makes a perfect case for the deity of Jesus. First, in Revelation 21:6, we see Jesus referring to himself as “the beginning.” In John 1:1, he says the Word was in the beginning. The Word is Jesus. It tells us the Word was with God in the beginning. This aligns perfectly with Genesis 1:26. The “Us” and “Our” is referring to the Father and Son. Even as early as Genesis, we see 2 of the 3 Persons of the Trinity. The Son is God. How do we know this? It’s because John 1:1 tells us so.
While the deity of Christ usually comes into question with Universalists, this is not always the case. Sometimes, they simply believe that Jesus is only one of the many ways to Heaven. They believe that Christians needs Jesus but a Buddhist just needs Buddha. A man recently said to me that he believes God shows Himself to mankind in different ways and that, so long as their heart is fully worshipping their God, they will still go to Heaven. While this sounds like a wonderful idea, it simply is not the truth.

John 10:27-28
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them

Eternal life is not something that can be earned. It is not something that can be gained from some other source. It can only be obtained from Jesus if he gives it to you. But wait, can’t that mean that Jesus is only one of the ways? For the answer to that, we must take Scripture as a whole.

Luke 11:23a
He who is not with Me is against Me

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Jesus is the ONLY way to be reconciled to the Father. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through him. If one rejects Jesus, he will be judged. However, John also says if one believes in Jesus, that person will not be judged. If anybody was innocent, why would God, who knows all, feel the need to judge him as if he were charged with something? If all religions led to salvation, why would God tell us otherwise in His Holy Scripture? The only way is through Christ. Why does the man who places his faith in Christ avoid the judgment? It is because of 1 John 2:1.

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Romans 3:23 says, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Because of this, we all deserve the judgment and wrath of God. However, Romans 5:8 says, “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” This brings us right back to 1 John 2:1. It is because of the death of Christ that we have an Advocate who stands between us and the judgment. It is only through Christ that one can obtain salvation. There is no other Advocate. No man can come to the Father but through the Son for without the Son, he will perish. Everybody loves John 3:16 so I might as well use it to make a point:

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

There is only one way to avoid the judgment and that is through Christ Jesus, the Son.

In Japan, there is a saying. They say that the road to enlightenment is like Mt Fuji; there are many ways to the top. My response is that not only are they incorrect in their theology but they aren’t even on the right mountain.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 8, 2011

Dear Rojoloco,
I read your post and I would like to respond to some of what you stated.

You said:
However, saving grace is something reserved for His Elect whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world.

It is true that Christ's Elect were chosen (many are called but few are chosen) before the foundation of the world. The Elect are the first-fruits unto God. The Elect is the church (the Bride) who will rule and reign with Christ as kings and priests. Why do you believe that Christ will not harvest anything but the first-fruits of the harvest? The Jewish feasts shadow and type the great and final harvest of the season with the feast of tabernacles. The Feasts of weeks (fruit fruits) comes first and much later the Feast of Tabernacles. No one has ever given me a satisfactory reason as to why they believe that Christ will not harvest a full crop of mankind as the harvest feast's foreshadow. No farmer only harvests the first fruits and lets the rest of the crop rot in the field.

You said:
We are indeed the recipients of God's grace but it is not grace which conforms us to Christ.

Everything we receive from Christ is grace. Grace is unmerited favor from God. Everything He does for us is because of grace.

You said:
We may not be struggling for salvation but we are most certainly struggling to be conformed to the mind of Christ in all we do.

Christ paid the penalty of death on the cross for all mankind. All men will be resurrected by Christ. No man will stay in the grave. But life in our current sinful condition is unacceptable to God. We must be changed (born again) into the image of God. That is the long and difficult process that Christ takes us through to mature us into His image. The church first in this age (first fruits), then the rest of mankind in the last age (Feast of Tabernacles).

You said:
In fact, Scripture is quite clear that many will suffer and never be reconciled to the Father. This is where I will post my other sermon. Hopefully, it will shed some light on the subject for you to at least see where I am coming from. I believe Universalism to be contrary to the Gospel and actually contrary to the love of God.

There is not one verse of scripture that says that "many will suffer and never be reconciled to God". Scriptures says just the opposite:

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I just quoted five verses of scripture that say Christ will save all men. They do not say that Christ will save all men into His Church to become first fruits of the harvest. That blessing is for the chosen Elect. The remaining crop of mankind will be harvested in the final age. All mankind must be judged, the church first and then all mankind who remain. Destruction comes from judgment. The Elect are destroyed in this life from their judgment. The rest of mankind will be destroyed in the final age from their judgment. However, scripture says that their judgment will me much harder on them. But from judgment all mankind will be made righteous.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

When Christ judges a person, they receive correction so as to produce righteous behavior. Why do you believe that the Church's judgment leads to life but the judgment of the rest of mankind leads to torture in hell. Since when has scripture ever said that hell is the penalty for sin anyway??

You said:
Universalism has become very popular in our society. Nobody wants to believe in a God who would send people to Hell simply because they have a different belief from Christians. Wouldn’t that be unfair? Wouldn’t it be wrong for God to send everybody from a secluded tribe to Hell when they never had a chance to hear the Gospel?

Ask congregation if they believe there are multiple ways to God.

The scriptures say there is only one way to "heaven" and that is through Jesus Christ. Also, "heaven" is not a location but a spiritual change within us. Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven and He must dwell inside us. When that happens, we dwell in heaven. A actual location called heaven is not our reward. Christ is our reward. Being made into God's image is our reward. Our new spiritual body is our reward. Immortality is our reward. A place or location called heaven is not our reward.

Lastly, I certainly do not call what the scriptures actually teach to be "universalism". Universalism is a denominational belief that is also a part of the Harlot Church system. A true Elect person has been called out from the Harlot churches and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I have not found any Truth in any "church" that has a staff and a building. We are commanded to "come out her" if we are to follow the true Christ.

You said:
I’d like to go back to one of the questions I just asked. While they were rhetorical is my usage of them, they are very real questions that have been posed to me by others. The question is, “Wouldn’t it be wrong for God to send everybody from a secluded tribe to Hell when they never had a chance to hear the Gospel?” As always, I will reply with Scripture.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

It doesn’t get any clearer. All men are without excuse. Man is held accountable to God just by the proof of nature. No man is innocent. Ignorance is no excuse.

All men are without excuse for their sins including the sins of those in the church. All men must be judged so that our sin nature/carnal nature is destroyed and replaced with the Holy Spirit. To God, judgment is something that is good and necessary for mankind because from judgment, all people will learn righteousness. Christ paid the penalty of death for our sins so that we can live again after we die but Christ requires us to stop sinning as well. That requires judgment and being made into a New Man in Christ. From our "destruction" (either in this age or the last age), a new man will be born.

There are no scriptures that say Christ's offer of salvation ends upon anyone's physical death. What scripture does say is that Christ's love and mercy never end. That is why Christ "typed" for us the final harvest of mankind when He attended the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem:

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

You said:
Universalism claims that everyone will go to Heaven and that all paths lead there so long as one is sincere in their dedication to their god. It teaches that since God is all loving and is fair that He wouldn’t possibly send men to Hell just because they believed something different because of the culture they grew up in. That can’t possibly be their fault. God would never hold them accountable.

As I said, "universalism" is no different from the other denominations who house their beliefs in buildings. They are all part of the Great Harlot. God will hold all men accountable for their sins, including those in His church.

Rom 14:11-12 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

You said:
Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who entergate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

If all roads lead to salvation, why is it that Scripture is so adamant that few will find it? Why does it say how difficult it is for one to find it? In fact, Matthew tells us that all paths lead to destruction with only one path leading to life. The Bible is very clear on this matter. With this established, the next step is to identify that path.

Christ is speaking of the "few" who will be the first fruits of the harvest who travel the narrow path in this life. The "many" will go to "destruction" in the final age. They will find and travel the narrow path to Christ in that age. Christ is the only path that leads to salvation. All mankind will travel it as these scriptures below testify to:

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You quoted:
John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Scripture clearly teaches at that all mankind will "believe that I am He".

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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You said:
There is only one way to avoid the judgment and that is through Christ Jesus, the Son.

There is no way to avoid judgment. Peter says that judgment is upon the House of God now, in this physical life. The judgment to come will be in wrath and will be much more difficult on those people being judged. But Christ is not willing at any should perish and He will see that all are saved. The Father sent Him to be the Savior of the world - not just a tiny fraction of it. Christ really is the Savior of the world - Love never fails.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
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1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If you have not read my previous posts on this thread, please do. If after reading them you still cannot accept that Jesus is the "Savior of the world" and "will have all men to be saved", then Christ has not willed it to happen at this time. Please don't confuse "universalism" with my understanding of scripture. I do not claim to be attached to any man made organization that claims to be His church. I follow no man but Christ.

Joe in Arkansas

theword · Jan 9, 2011

blessed07 said:
why do people reject jesus as there savior.

It all depends on if it's the real Jesus Christ who no one can see or a name you can find in the Bible.

Most people can easily believe in the Jesus of the Bible but I haven't met one person yet, who knows the true Jesus Christ while I'm preaching the gospel.

The blind won't cross a busy street if they hear all the cars zooming by but there are a few of us who hear the person on the other side of the street guiding us across to safety.

Jaareshiah · Jan 9, 2011

MelodyC said:
Jaareshiah.

Not my place to tell God what he can or cannot do with the wicked for eternity.

You have put forward very humanistic arguments assuming that God couldn't do this or that.

Not your place to decide what happens to the wicked either.

Mankind is under the full Sovereingty of God "like it or
not".

I've put forward totally indisputable scripture verses that clearly state what God intends to do with the wicked. One verse was what Jesus had sais Himself and the other verse from Revelation leaves no doubt of what will await those who reject God.

You can argue black and blue how you cannot accept these scriptures. I have taken the Word of God to be complete and all of it will be fulfilled as God has said it would. I do not dispute the Word of God.

Nothing I say will change your mind. I have issued my warning against the those like you who ignore various parts of the Bible and reject it.

Here is something you should grasp. Jesus is the very Word of God it says so in the first chapter of the gospel of John, do go and read it for yourself.

When you reject God's Word are you not rejecting Jesus Christ Himself? Think about it.

The Scriptures you used, Matthew 25:41, 44-46 and Rev 14:9-12, do not teach eternal torment. At Matthew 25:41, here is a question to consider: If Satan is ruler over "hell", then how could he be thrown into that he has supposed authority over ? Do not the churches teach that Satan is ruler of "hell", pictured as a horned, cloven-hoofed creature clad in red and using a pitchfork, and is casting wicked humans into his fiery hell ?

Jesus used fire illustratively, not as eternal torment, but to mean everlasting destruction. Note this please at Revelation 20:14, that according to the reading of the King James Bible, that "hell" is thrown into the "lake of fire". If "hell" is a place of fiery torment, and the “lake of fire” is the same as “hell”, then how could "hell" be cast into "hell" ? Can fire torment fire ? At Revelation 20:14, it says that the “lake of fire” is, not eternal torment, but “the second death”. It is then essential that a person come to an accurate understanding of the word "hell" or "hellfire."

For example, at Matthew 25:46, the rendering of "eternal punishment" is not what Jesus said. Rather, Jesus used the words "everlasting cutting-off ", for the Greek there is ko´la·sin, and literally means "lopping off; pruning" and is also used at 1 John 4:18, whereby the King James Bible reads: "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment (Greek ko´la·sin )". This does make sense if it is rendered as "torment" here, but rather makes sense when it is properly rendered "restraint”.

Of Matthew 25:46, The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” The footnote on Matthew 25:46 states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification (No. 1) has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis (or direct opposites). The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death.”

Thus, at Matthew 25:46, the contrast is between life and death, nor between “eternal punishment” and “everlasting life”. If a person is eternally punished by a “hellfire”, then these, believe it or not, also has everlasting life, not death. This false doctrine of hellfire props up the teaching of immortality of the soul, which the Bible does not support either, for Ezekiel 18:20 says that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

The book of Revelation is “presented in signs”, or symbolisms.(Rev 1:1) In view of that, then what is written is mostly not to be taken literally, but is to be understood as picturing events and situations that involves God’s people during “the Lord’s day”.(Rev 1:10) At Revelation 14:9-12, it speaks of the those who “worship the wild beast and its image”, that these will “drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of wrath, and he shall be tormented (Greek basanizo) with fire and sulphur.” Does this mean that person is literally tormented here ? No. Why ?

Because the same basic Greek word, basanizo, is also used at Matthew 18:34, whereby it says in the King James Bible, concerning the unforgiving slave: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors (Greek basanistes), till he should pay all that was due unto him.” The “tormenters” here means jailers, for he was thrown into jail “till he should pay all that was due unto” the king, forever imprisoned, for he would be unable to pay back the king as long as he was in jail. Thus, the Bible does not teach “eternal torment” but instead everlasting destruction or “cutting-off.”

This corresponds with 2 Thessalonians 1:9 concerning those deemed worthy of everlasting “cutting-off “, which says: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (“everlasting destruction”, Greek aionios olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”(King James Bible) Hence, “eternal punishment” means “everlasting destruction”, not torments.

rojoloco · Jan 11, 2011

Joe in Arkansas said:
There is not one verse of scripture that says that "many will suffer and never be reconciled to God". Scriptures says just the opposite:

I want to point out a few things here. First, let's look at this passage:

1 Tim 2:4-6 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Greek word used here is thelo. It is better translated as desire or wish. This is actually how most accurate translations word it. It is not about a purposeful will or decree (as is the case with the Greek word boulomai) otherwise all men would be saved. I can see how you would confuse this but it simply is not so. However, what we can take refuge in is that all of His Elect will be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

The death and resurrection of Jesus did indeed come for the world. However, it is aimed at the Elect. The act on the cross staved off the judgment of mankind whereas they deserved it right then and there. In this way, Christ has temporarily saved all men without exception. It is also true that Christ has saved all men without distinction meaning that both Jews and Gentiles alike can be reconciled to God. However, it does not mean that believers and unbelievers alike will enjoy the benefits of Heaven. There is a clear differentiation in the fact that is says "especially of those that believe."

Joe in Arkansas said:
I just quoted five verses of scripture that say Christ will save all men. They do not say that Christ will save all men into His Church to become first fruits of the harvest. That blessing is for the chosen Elect. The remaining crop of mankind will be harvested in the final age. All mankind must be judged, the church first and then all mankind who remain. Destruction comes from judgment. The Elect are destroyed in this life from their judgment. The rest of mankind will be destroyed in the final age from their judgment. However, scripture says that their judgment will me much harder on them. But from judgment all mankind will be made righteous.

And in response to this, I would like to share some more Scripture. You say that no Scripture teaches eternal suffering and separation from God.

Revelation 20:13-15 said:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here, we see the lake of fire is the judgment. How long does it say this will happen?

Matthew 25:41 said:
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 25:46 said:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

And this is in response to your claim that all will be saved and reconciled to the Father at some point after their judgment.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 said:
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Joe in Arkansas said:
When Christ judges a person, they receive correction so as to produce righteous behavior. Why do you believe that the Church's judgment leads to life but the judgment of the rest of mankind leads to torture in hell.

This was explained above by Scripture. By now it should be obvious.

Joe in Arkansas said:
Since when has scripture ever said that hell is the penalty for sin anyway??

Here you go:

Matthew 8:12 said:
but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-42 said:
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 14:49-50 said:
"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13 said:
Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 24:51 said:
and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 said:
Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 said:
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

John 8:24 said:
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

And as Romans 6:23 puts it, the wages of sin is death. The unbeliever dies in sin and is sentenced to Hell where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. One this has happened, there are no second chances. There is no turning back. All that awaits is the final judgment where all will be cast into the lake of fire. How long will that be? As we have seen in Scripture, it will be for an eternity. Eternal suffering in Hell is directly in Scripture.

Joe in Arkansas said:
The scriptures say there is only one way to "heaven" and that is through Jesus Christ. Also, "heaven" is not a location but a spiritual change within us. Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven and He must dwell inside us. When that happens, we dwell in heaven. A actual location called heaven is not our reward. Christ is our reward. Being made into God's image is our reward. Our new spiritual body is our reward. Immortality is our reward. A place or location called heaven is not our reward.

This is completely false. Heaven is always declared as being a place. In fact, Christ even said his Father was in Heaven. Our bodies are never described as being Heaven. The closest we come to this is in 1 Corinthians 6:19 where it says our bodies are the temple of the Spirit. This is vastly different from saying that Heaven resides within our body. In fact, one need only read Scripture a small bit to see it is described of as the place where God lives and where we will go. Paul himself said it is better to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. Where is home? Home was Heaven. If Heaven were within him, there would be no need for him to say this for he would already be home.

Joe in Arkansas said:
Lastly, I certainly do not call what the scriptures actually teach to be "universalism". Universalism is a denominational belief that is also a part of the Harlot Church system. A true Elect person has been called out from the Harlot churches and worship God in Spirit and in Truth. I have not found any Truth in any "church" that has a staff and a building. We are commanded to "come out her" if we are to follow the true Christ.

Again, this is false. Scripture actually tells us of the importance of going to church.

Hebrews 10:24-25 said:
and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Hebrews 13:7 said:
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.

1 Timothy 4:13 said:
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

We can clearly see that we are to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. We can clearly see we are to give attention to the public reading of the word and to teaching. We can clearly see we are to submit to the leaders within the church who are teaching us and caring for our souls. God gave the office of pastors, teachers, elders, etc for a reason. Attending church is actually very important and is spoken of in Scripture all over the place. To say otherwise is unbiblical and unwise.

Joe in Arkansas said:
All men are without excuse for their sins including the sins of those in the church. All men must be judged so that our sin nature/carnal nature is destroyed and replaced with the Holy Spirit. To God, judgment is something that is good and necessary for mankind because from judgment, all people will learn righteousness. Christ paid the penalty of death for our sins so that we can live again after we die but Christ requires us to stop sinning as well. That requires judgment and being made into a New Man in Christ. From our "destruction" (either in this age or the last age), a new man will be born.

Actually, Scripture teaches us that the believer will not come under judgment or condemnation because we have an Advocate in Christ. Only those who do not declare Christ as their Lord and Savior (and actually live for Him) will be judged according to their unrighteousness. You say this judgment will result in all men being reconciled. Scripture tells us this judgment will result in eternal separation from the glory of God in eternal fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Joe in Arkansas said:
There are no scriptures that say Christ's offer of salvation ends upon anyone's physical death.

There most certainly is:

Hebrews 9:27 said:
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

You get one chance. Upon death, that chance is over and the unrighteous man WILL be judged and WILL inherit eternal death as his wages which WILL result in eternal torment in the fires of Hell.

Joe in Arkansas said:
What scripture does say is that Christ's love and mercy never end.

Paul answered this very question in Romans 9:

Romans 9:18:22 said:
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

[QUOTE=Joe in Arkansas;170483]God will hold all men accountable for their sins, including those in His church.[/quote]

Once again, Scripture addresses this fallacy:

Romans 8:1 said:
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[QUOTE=Joe in Arkansas;170483]Christ is speaking of the "few" who will be the first fruits of the harvest who travel the narrow path in this life. The "many" will go to "destruction" in the final age. They will find and travel the narrow path to Christ in that age. Christ is the only path that leads to salvation. All mankind will travel it as these scriptures below testify to:[/quote]

You keep saying Christians are the first fruit but this is illogical and false. Christ was the first fruit. The first fruit was simply the best of the season's harvest offered up to God before the farmer would partake in any of the rest of the crop. Christ was the first fruit in the sense that he rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. All other believers are just the rest of the crop so to speak.

1 Corinthians 15:15-23 said:
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Christ is the only first fruit. There is a clear differentiation here between the first fruit being Christ and the rest of us. Notice it also says only those who are Christ's will go with Him. All will be subject to His rule but not all will be His.

[QUOTE=Joe in Arkansas;170483]If you have not read my previous posts on this thread, please do. If after reading them you still cannot accept that Jesus is the "Savior of the world" and "will have all men to be saved", then Christ has not willed it to happen at this time. Please don't confuse "universalism" with my understanding of scripture. I do not claim to be attached to any man made organization that claims to be His church. I follow no man but Christ.[/QUOTE]

You may not like the title or the association with a group of people but your beliefs fall in line with Universalists. Universalists claim that God will save everybody and that everybody will go to Heaven. They claim that God's love is so strong that as long as they try, God will grant them Heaven. This is what you are espousing and is is completely wrong.

jiggyfly · Jan 12, 2011

rojoloco said:
You may not like the title or the association with a group of people but your beliefs fall in line with Universalists. Universalists claim that God will save everybody and that everybody will go to Heaven. They claim that God's love is so strong that as long as they try, God will grant them Heaven. This is what you are espousing and is is completely wrong.

You are confusing Unitarian Universalism with Christian Universal reconciliation. Secondly I have read Joe's posts and you are misreading them if you think he is espousing "that as long as they try, God will grant them heaven".

Thats like saying you are a baptist and have the same claims as the Westboro Baptist Church. Surely you see the ignorance and prejudice in this kind of statement.

rojoloco · Jan 12, 2011

jiggyfly said:
You are confusing Unitarian Universalism with Christian Universal reconciliation. Secondly I have read Joe's posts and you are misreading them if you think he is espousing "that as long as they try, God will grant them heaven".

Thats like saying you are a baptist and have the same claims as the Westboro Baptist Church. Surely you see the ignorance and prejudice in this kind of statement.

Unitarians believe that there is no Trinity. I see nothing in his posts to suggest such a thing. What I see is him saying that we will all be reconciled to God, some quicker than others. He appears to not believe in eternal Hell and suffering. In fact, he has blatantly said this. If there is no eternal Hell and suffering, it means everybody will eventually be in Heaven. This means all paths lead to God regardless what they do. This is the very core of the Universalist belief.

jiggyfly · Jan 12, 2011

rojoloco said:
If there is no eternal Hell and suffering, it means everybody will eventually be in Heaven. This means all paths lead to God regardless what they do. This is the very core of the Universalist belief.

Again you are making assumptions about things and showing that you are ignorant of what UR teaches. I know you think you are right about this but your in error. Why not let Joe answer himself on what he believes rather than making straw man arguments.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 12, 2011

Dear Rojoloco,
Thank you for your detailed response. I must say that I completely disagree with what you stated. You simply do not see or believe that Christ is the Savior of the world. You said that 1Tim 2:4 says that Christ only "desires" to save all men but that He cannot and will not have this desire. As I have pointed out in earlier posts, scripture says that Christ will have all His "desires" which includes saving all men. You simply refuse to accept it.

Isa 55:11 <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

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Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
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Also, as I clearly showed in scripture all men must be judged. Judgment is not eternal. It is corrective in nature and will end once the correction is complete. Also, there was not a Greek word at the time of the writing of the New Testament that meant eternal, everlasting or forever and ever as you believe. The Greek words "aion" and it's adjective form "aionios" mean a period of time that has a beginning and an end. They never meant "time without end" at the time of the writing of the scriptures. That later change in definition has been documented by many writers. The one I mentioned in this thread was "Whence Eternity" by A. Thompson and he is only one of many.

Also, the "church" is the firstfruits of the harvest. Christ is represented by the wave sheaf offering within the Feast of Weeks. The wave sheaf was the first of the firstfruits offering and that is what Christ is - He is the "first" of the firstfruits. The church is the remaining
firstfruits offering that comes after the wave sheaf offering. These verses below clearly show that the church is the firstfruits, but again, you do not accept these scriptures as truth.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 14:4 clearly identifies the entire group of Elect as the firstfruits. The rest of mankind will be harvested into the Kingdom of God but they won't be firstfruits or Elect. The Kingdom when completed will be made up of the leaders and the congregation. The firstfruits are the leaders and the rest of mankind will be the congregation. Christ is only gathering the leaders (the Elect) in this present age. The leaders are not the entire harvest. They are only the FIRSTfruits of the harvest.

All will enter the Kingdom of Heaven through tribulation and judgment. Christ was sent by the Father to be the Savior of the world. The Father desires to save the world and Christ desires to save the world so just who is it that has the power to stop the Father and Christ from having this desire fulfilled?

Since you do not accept all scripture as truth, it is pointless to show you additional scriptures. I will leave you to go on serving and following your weak god of hate and limited mercy and I will go on following my God of power, love and endless mercy.
Joe in Arkansas

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 12, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Again you are making assumptions about things and showing that you are ignorant of what UR teaches. I know you think you are right about this but your in error. Why not let Joe answer himself on what he believes rather than making straw man arguments.

Thank you jiggyfly for your support. If Rojoloco would just go back and read my posts on this thread, he would not be (or at least he shouldn't be) misunderstanding my beliefs.
Thanks,
Joe in Arkansas

stephen · Jan 12, 2011

blessed07 said:
why do people reject jesus as there savior.

Folks reject Jesus because the carnal mind is enmity against God.
Romans. 8.7.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 12, 2011

stephen said:
Folks reject Jesus because the carnal mind is enmity against God.
Romans. 8.7.

Stephen,
I agree with you completely. But how do you explain that some people don't reject Christ considering that we are ALL born with carnal minds? According to scripture, what happens to make us not reject Him?
Joe in Arkansas

Brighthouse · Jan 12, 2011

hope this helps you Joe for an answer.2Cor 4:4 Inwhose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbeliving so they they might not see thelight of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ,who is the inage of God. verse 3 says And even if our Gospel is veiled,it is veiled to those who are perishing. I understand you do not believe any are,but that what this says.Hope this helps.

MelodyC · Jan 13, 2011

Brighthouse said:
hope this helps you Joe for an answer.2Cor 4:4 Inwhose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbeliving so they they might not see thelight of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ,who is the inage of God. verse 3 says And even if our Gospel is veiled,it is veiled to those who are perishing. I understand you do not believe any are,but that what this says.Hope this helps.

Good try but I bet it doesn't work. You're dealing with Joe of A, not a reasonable person.

:hourglass::sleep:

jiggyfly · Jan 13, 2011

Brighthouse, would you mind responding to one of my posts to you. It seems to have been buried in the thread and overlooked.

Originally Posted by Brighthouse
A man long ago believed in no hell either,he, like you was told by a brother in Lord,of his error,and like you he has his own belief and what he called a supernatural revelation by God himself. I did my best to explain,but alas I was the one mistaken so he said,a few months after this had happened the man was hit by a car in the street,he was taken to the hospital,and the doctors gave this man little hope,in fact while on the operating table he died,he was brought back to life,and later told of a jouney he had taken to hell.He did not reason this because like you, he saw Jesus full of love and mercy and grace! Which he is!! I so agree! but what he did not see,was that our loving God has another side to him,that of being fair and just,it is the side which few wish to look at because deep down in us, we know what we deserve. He did not believe man had free will either,and after the jouney an angel of the Lord took him of hell, he screamed for Jesus to deliever him from the pit he was in.( the Lord did!)The man changed his view,and went back to the scriptures and found what most of hold to in doctrine.The last point given to this man was this John 8:44 The nature of the devil is to lie,this has been his nature since Adam and Eve,why it is his very doctrine if you will.Perhaps the Lord will have enough grace and mercy upon you to give you a journey,it is not something I would pray for to another,because it is to terrible to even consider,but something will happen,and you will see the error of the lie you believe,I can have confidence in this because Jesus loves you just as much as he does any of us!Is the death and the ressurection enough for any to be saved? of course it is,but God did not make us like a train on a track,sure he is all knowing! Yes he knows what we will do.But there are 2 people who do not,us for one,and the devil himslef,for if the devil knew the furture, he would of never used men to have Jesus die only to rise again to give those who believe,our victory in him.If we had no free will, then man and woman have have no choice but to believe in Jesus ,all would have to believe in him,but even you know, all do not,and many have no wish to believe in our Jesus.And to a most Loving God, he is also fair and just.I cannot change your views,I only can warn those who go against his Word. I am the very least of the brethern here,I know only in part like all belevers,but the foundation part of the Bible is love, and justice,for in love, one cannot have one without the other,for our God is also fair,and Holy and righteouss. I shall not comment further about this.I wrote what I wrote not for you,but for younger believers to see truth,but your truth comes from someone who knows no truth.John 8:44-47

Couple of questions Brighthouse, first if this man really experienced hell then how did he escape if there is no "second chances" and no escaping hell once you are there?

Secondly, in light of your statement that God is fair and just, please explain then how unending torment is fair and just when the just or fair penalty according to the scriptures is death?

Jesus is Lord, and there's nothing you can do about it!

jiggyfly · Jan 13, 2011

stephen said:
Folks reject Jesus because the carnal mind is enmity against God.
Romans. 8.7.

Good scripture post Stephen.

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 13, 2011

Brighthouse said:
hope this helps you Joe for an answer.2Cor 4:4 Inwhose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbeliving so they they might not see thelight of the Gospel of the Glory of Christ,who is the inage of God. verse 3 says And even if our Gospel is veiled,it is veiled to those who are perishing. I understand you do not believe any are,but that what this says.Hope this helps.

Dear Brighthouse,
Yes, I agree with that scripture. Satan has blinded the eyes of all men and has deceived all men. We are all perishing because we are all sinners & we are all carnally minded from birth.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Since that is our natural condition, what hope do we have to seek out Christ and be saved?

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:11 says that we have no ability within ourselves to seek out and find Christ. We are totally lost & deceived and are all headed to the grave to perish. Since we are all completely helpless to seek out Christ or to even know that we need saving (we are deceived), why is it that some people do seek out and find Christ? What is the reason given by scripture for why some do?

Joe in Arkansas

Joe in Arkansas · Jan 13, 2011

MelodyC said:
Good try but I bet it doesn't work. You're dealing with Joe of A, not a reasonable person.

:hourglass::sleep:

Dear MelodyC,
I am a very reasonable man but I do not follow the traditions of man. Those traditions seem "reasonable" to the carnal mind but the end of which is death. My faith and my understanding of God comes strictly from scripture. But until Christ removes our spiritual blindness, you cannot understand the scriptures to find and know the true Christ. Why do you think Christ frequently said throughout the gospels "for those who have eyes to see or ears to hear" or words to that effect? Christ was purposefully concealing His true message so that He could choose to whom to reveal it. He chooses us out of the Harlot church system when He comes to us the second time and removes our spiritual blindness.

Joe in Arkansas

Brighthouse · Jan 13, 2011

Hi Jiggyfly! As I have never toured heaven or hell,I cannot say,I think you are right,at the end, those who go to either place,stay in either place,BUT!! We both know Luke 1:37 nothing with God is inpossible,he was not in human form when he took this tour,like Paul in 2Cor 12:2-10 this man was caught up in the Spirit realm,and then was brought back into his body at some time afterwards. I do not judge as to whether the man is true or not,but it was an intersting journey he decribed, and I did not have a reason to doubt him,some may, and that is ok.To the second observation you made as the Lord is fair and just, how could he send anyone to hell? Let us say I have a son or daughter,they do not want anything to do with me,in fact they hate me! No matter what I do for them,they still hate me,in the end,when they die,will they still not hate me? What difference will the end make to any who still hate me? Since they do hate me that much, they would not want to be where I am,hence hell,the problem for them,will not be the torment only they will face,but they will indeed be so alone,and when therealize just how horrible hell is,the door is shut,and no one can hear there screams for help. We know Jesus would have ALL!! be saved! Matt 18:11 Jesus came to save that which was lost,but some who are lost, will stay that way because they choose to be that way. As I know, like you, only he can judge, I will let him decide who is lost and who is not. I myself judge me,I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.( phil 2:12-13) There are many who do not believe in hell,I must say i am surprised to see so many who do not,but that is there choice,in the end, they will. I myself lied to myself about many things for many years,I am only free because of Jesus!!( John 8:31-32) And my only hope is to show as many as I can,through Jesus in me,how to become that way.I did not see your question earlier,thank you for writing and asking again! May many blessing be upon you,and your family.I hope this helps in answering your very good questions.

jiggyfly · Jan 13, 2011

Brighthouse said:
Hi Jiggyfly! As I have never toured heaven or hell,I cannot say,I think you are right,at the end, those who go to either place,stay in either place,BUT!! We both know Luke 1:37 nothing with God is inpossible,he was not in human form when he took this tour,like Paul in 2Cor 12:2-10 this man was caught up in the Spirit realm,and then was brought back into his body at some time afterwards. I do not judge as to whether the man is true or not,but it was an intersting journey he decribed, and I did not have a reason to doubt him,some may, and that is ok.To the second observation you made as the Lord is fair and just, how could he send anyone to hell? Let us say I have a son or daughter,they do not want anything to do with me,in fact they hate me! No matter what I do for them,they still hate me,in the end,when they die,will they still not hate me? What difference will the end make to any who still hate me? Since they do hate me that much, they would not want to be where I am,hence hell,the problem for them,will not be the torment only they will face,but they will indeed be so alone,and when therealize just how horrible hell is,the door is shut,and no one can hear there screams for help. We know Jesus would have ALL!! be saved! Matt 18:11 Jesus came to save that which was lost,but some who are lost, will stay that way because they choose to be that way. As I know, like you, only he can judge, I will let him decide who is lost and who is not. I myself judge me,I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.( phil 2:12-13) There are many who do not believe in hell,I must say i am surprised to see so many who do not,but that is there choice,in the end, they will. I myself lied to myself about many things for many years,I am only free because of Jesus!!( John 8:31-32) And my only hope is to show as many as I can,through Jesus in me,how to become that way.I did not see your question earlier,thank you for writing and asking again! May many blessing be upon you,and your family.I hope this helps in answering your very good questions.

First, let me say that your posts could be read much easier if you used small paragraphs.
Second, I did not say that I believe that once a person goes to heaven or hell they stay there.
Third you really did not address the 2nd question very well and maybe you misunderstood what I was asking so let me rephrase it for you.

Secondly, in light of your statement that God is fair and just, please explain then how unending torment is fair and just when the just or fair penalty according to the scriptures is death?

If the punishment or penalty for sin is death how can unending torture be a just and fair sentence?

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