Do we sleep or go directly to eternal destinations?

[beam]

Hi there,

I have always understood or rather believed that when we die we go directly to our eternal destinations and then we will all gather at the appointed time for judgement so that all can know for sure we deserve where we land up.

BUT...the word speaks so much about the resurrections and to 'sleep' and to 'perish', if we take the true definition of these words they mean what they say.

Yet i received some literature from a globally known ministry that interprets the scriptures that when we die we will ALL "sleep" be in that unconcious state until the 1st and 2nd resurrections, then we will be judged and then go to our eternal destinations. But what about the numerous testimonies of people who have been to Heaven and Hell and back to earth only cause the Lord allowed them and even told them to come back with the messages of warning and hope.

It is even explained that when Jesus was on the cross and he said to the man that asked Him to remember him that "i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise" that in those days they often used the word 'today'. Its like when we say to each other "i'm telling you now...." so it should read like this...I tell you this day, today, right now, i'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise, so Jesus was saying this day i'm telling you something, that you will be with me in paradise......meaning he will be with Jesus but not this day...only when the time comes. They also speak about the rich man and Lazarus and say when the rich man "lifted up his eyes" it was because they were closed in the first place in order for him to have "lifted them up.

Hope this makes sense, there is too much info to go into one shot so as the replies come up i will write how these people have interpreted the scriptures.

The thing is i want to learn and know the truth, we all do, and they really sound like they know what they're saying concerning this subject and the scriptures, if i have learnt and believed something in error obviously this is what i share with people and i dont want to be sharing false things concerning the Word of God with people!

They also say that there is NO eternal hell in the way we think the scriptures say, in a nutshell they say that once the wicked have been judged, they will be burnt to chaff and the fire eventually will burn itself out and they will "perish" come to a complete end! I will give scriptures in my next post.

They say they are NOT of the "Universalism" religion but using the exact scriptures and original meanings/translation of the Bible.

I would appreciate anyone's assistance, thank you.

Best regards
beam

 

[Boanerges]

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[beam]

Hi there Boanerges,

For this one they say that- Quote " Many have assumed from Paul's words here that he believed that at the moment of his death he would join Christ in heaven, However this is not the case. Paul knew that if he were executed he would go to the grave and there his remains would lie until the time of his resurrection. Paul knew that, since the dead have no thought processes whatsoever, in his next waking moment he would be with the returning Messiah, Jesus, joining Him along with the other saints at the time of the resurrection. The interval from Paul's last thought as a human being to the time of his seeing Christ in the resurrection will seem instantaneous, since the Bible shows that the dead know nothing..Ecclesiastes 9:5


Paul wrote of this resurrection at Christ's rerturn to the church in Thessalonica, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an arch-angel, and with the trumpet of God And the dead in Christ will rise first (this verse does say to me that no-one is with him yet!!) 1 Thessalonians 4:16.


In 2 Timothy 4:6-7 when he knew for certain of his execution he wrote of a coming time..From now on there is reserved for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge will give me on that day.....so Paul knew it would come on that day and not at the moment of his death. Unquote.

Corinthians 15:50-54 ;in verse 53 the word says we will only put on incorruption and immortality AFTER we are raised up and changed at the resurrection.

They say according to scripture (and it is there), that even King David IS NOT IN HEAVEN YET! Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34 ???

And what is Jesus meaning when he says in John 3:13 that no man has ascended to heaven but only He that came down from heaven which is Himself, Jesus ???

Here's the thing i believe both are true because we can see it for ourselves in the Word and i know the Word of God does not contradict itself, so what is it saying.....do we all "sleep" lay dead in our graves and are only raised at the resurrection or are we immediately in heaven with the Lord upon death? At the moment i believe both but have to choose only one, i cannot believe one thing and a contradictory thing about the very same thing...can you see why i need some advice here, getting a bit confused.....heehee. :magnify::huh:

Warm regards
beam

 

[Boanerges]

For this one they say that- Quote " Many have assumed from Paul's words here that he believed that at the moment of his death he would join Christ in heaven, However this is not the case. Paul knew that if he were executed he would go to the grave and there his remains would lie until the time of his resurrection. Paul knew that, since the dead have no thought processes whatsoever, in his next waking moment he would be with the returning Messiah, Jesus, joining Him along with the other saints at the time of the resurrection. The interval from Paul's last thought as a human being to the time of his seeing Christ in the resurrection will seem instantaneous, since the Bible shows that the dead know nothing..Ecclesiastes 9:5 Paul wrote of this resurrection at Christ's rerturn to the church in Thessalonica, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an arch-angel, and with the trumpet of God And the dead in Christ will rise first (this verse does say to me that no-one is with him yet!!) 1 Thessalonians 4:16. In 2 Timothy 4:6-7 when he knew for certain of his execution he wrote of a coming time..From now on there is reserved for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge will give me on that day.....so Paul knew it would come on that day and not at the moment of his death. Unquote.

I disagree with "they that say", LOL.

I believe Paul knew just what he was talking about and fully expected to be with Christ immediately upon his physical death.
To comprehend this you must come understand the tripartite nature of man.
Paul new full well his spirit would go directly to God (Ecc 12:7).
True his new physical body would not be given until His return but our bodies are but a shell.
It was never our body that He came to save as He would give us a glorified body. It was indeed our soul (mind, will, intellect, emotions, etc) that He came to save. One can see the souls of the martyr's in heaven in Rev 20:4 .
While some believe in soul sleep we have seen here that our spirit goes directly to God and there are human souls in heaven; there is no reason to believe that if these souls are in His presence we would not also be.
Personally then, I recognize that there are many views on this but I believe that the sleep refereed to in the New Testament is referring to the bodies of departed believers.



Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

 

[rojoloco]

Beam,

You asked me to reply to this thread so I will gladly do it. This is another one that really isn't that difficult to understand so long as one has a proper understanding of all the peripheral theology/doctrine stemming from it.

First, let's look at Paradise. Many people are confused and seem to think Paradise is Heaven. While I do believe this to be the case now, I do not believe it was always the case.

You quoted Jesus saying the thief would be with him in Paradise. This is true. I also do not believe Jesus was saying, "On this day I tell you..." as it makes no sense. It is obvious it was that day. They were on the cross and were not going to be seeing another day. It was the only day left for them. To make this point clear would have been pointless.

2 Corinthians 5:8 was posted saying it is better to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. This is true in every way possible. There is no purgatory. There is no soul sleep. Romans 6:23 says, "As it is appointed unto man once to die and after this, the judgment." We die, we are judged, and we go to either Heaven or Hell. As Christians, we die and we go home with the Lord.

Jesus was clearly telling the thief that they would be in Paradise on that very day together. Paradise was also known as Abraham's Bosom. We see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was in a place of comfort while the rich man was in a place of torment. They were in 2 very different places yet they could see each other clearly. I firmly believe Paradise was just another part of Hades, the abode of the dead. Paradise was where all the faithful resided as a temporary holding unit.

The only way to the Father is through Christ. He taught this time and time again. However, belief in Christ is not enough. One must believe in Christ, his Godhood, his death, and his resurrection. To betray one is to betray salvation. All of those combined equal faith. Because of this, it was impossible for man to be reconciled to the Father before the resurrection of Christ. It was only after the resurrection that this could happen. We see Scripture saying that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights, so was Jesus in the heart of the Earth. The Greek word for heart is kardia. It was used to imply that everything springs forth from it. Back then, they believed Hades was located in the center of the Earth. Hence, they were saying that Jesus was in Hades for 3 days and 3 nights. He was in Paradise. He was there with the thief and all the other righteous men of faith who had died before the resurrection. It was only after the resurrection that Paradise was relocated to Heaven and they were all able to partake in the Father's glory.

Now we are in present post-resurrection day. The moment we die, we are absent from the body and at home with the Lord. I hope this helps at least a little bit. Any more questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

 

[yort]

The Spirit

Hello, the post befor me I believe has it right as fare as our spirit,

2 cor 5:8; We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And if we`re to look back futher than that we`ll see David talk about in the Psalm 23;Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Now we are speaking of the one`s that are saved.

Yort-----------------------------------Troy

 

[Word of Life]

Hi there Boanerges,
Here's the thing i believe both are true because we can see it for ourselves in the Word and i know the Word of God does not contradict itself, so what is it saying.....do we all "sleep" lay dead in our graves and are only raised at the resurrection or are we immediately in heaven with the Lord upon death? At the moment i believe both but have to choose only one, i cannot believe one thing and a contradictory thing about the very same thing...can you see why i need some advice here, getting a bit confused.....heehee.
Warm regards
beam

You are doing well Beam! Ask God and He will lead you and He will reveal His plan.

Take a look at at what Paul said to us in 2 Timothy 4:6-8.

2Ti 4:6-8
(6) For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
(7) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
(8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul's say ''AT that day'', so ask your self what day is Paul referring to?

Also bearing in mind, when we read further on in that scripture, this crown will not ONLY be given to him (Paul) but to ALL who will love his appearing?

Appearing?

(1Ti 6:14) I insist that, until our Lord Jesus Christ appears, you obey this command completely. Then you cannot be blamed for doing anything wrong.

(2Ti 4:1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

So what day is God referring to and when will Jesus appear?

(Mat 24:36) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Luk 10:12) But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

What day is Jesus talking abou here? He is talking about a specific day!

(Luk 17:31) In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

What day is Jesus referring to here?

We will receive our crown of righteousness on a specific day, which ONLY God knows!

 

[Word of Life]

To comprehend this you must come understand the tripartite nature of man.
[/B]

Are you saying, you are immortal?

(Gen 2:7) Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.

Paul new full well his spirit would go directly to God (Ecc 12:7).
True his new physical body would not be given until His return but our bodies are but a shell.
It was never our body that He came to save as He would give us a glorified body. It was indeed our soul (mind, will, intellect, emotions, etc) that He came to save.
[/B]

(Ecc 11:5) Just as you don't know how the breath of life enters the limbs of a child within its mother's womb, you also don't understand how God, who made everything, works.

(Ecc 12:7) Then the dust of mortals goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

(Rev 11:11) After 3 1/2 days the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet. Great fear fell on those who watched them.

Psa 146:4
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Your thoughts are your emotions.

Psa 115:16-18
(16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
(17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

 

[Word of Life]

Boanerges, I say this with much love and concern for you. This new doctrine you speak of ''Tripartite Nature of Man''. I have done a search on this and will continue to do some more study on it to try and understand what you are in and to help you back to the truth.

The Christian doctrine of immortality cannot be understood apart from the right conception of the tripartite nature of men. Many think that man is a physical being only. There is a great danger of any man thinking thus of himself. In his desire to satisfy the needs of the body there is the tendency on man’s part to lose sight of the fact that he is immortal. There have been persons who have lived all of their lives either in ignorance or willful neglect of a life after death, but upon their death-bed they suddenly realized that they were more than physical beings......
By: Lehman Strauss

I have highlighted in red, which should raise a huge flag to you!

1Ti 6:12-16
(12) Fight the good fight for the Christian faith. Take hold of everlasting life to which you were called and about which you made a good testimony in front of many witnesses.
(13) In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and in the sight of Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony in front of Pontius Pilate,
(14) I insist that, until our Lord Jesus Christ appears, you obey this command completely. Then you cannot be blamed for doing anything wrong.
(15) At the right time God will make this known. God is the blessed and only ruler. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords.
(16) He is the only one who cannot die. He lives in light that no one can come near. No one has seen him, nor can they see him. Honor and power belong to him forever! Amen.

 

[Word of Life]

Now we are in present post-resurrection day. The moment we die, we are absent from the body and at home with the Lord. I hope this helps at least a little bit. Any more questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

Rojoloco, you mention ''Post-resurrection day'', I have not seen this in scripture!

Surely, if one is already with the Lord, then they must be awake!

Dan 12:1-2
(1) The person who looked like a human continued, "At that time Michael, the great commander, will stand up on behalf of the descendants of your people. It will be a time of trouble unlike any that has existed from the time there have been nations until that time. But at that time your people, everyone written in the book, will be rescued.
(2) Many sleeping in the ground will wake up. Some will wake up to live forever, but others will wake up to be ashamed and disgraced forever.

But if we look at Daniel's prophecy about the Resurrection Day, it tells us we are asleep.

1Co 15:1-6
(1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
(2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
(3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
(4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
(5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
(6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Co 15:6, clearly tells us they are sleeping, it's not telling us they are with the Lord!

 

[Boanerges]

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Your assumptions based on those scriptures are mistaken. Verse 16 talks about the One who has immortality and which no man has seen. Tht is plainly talking if the Father as even Jesus has tasted death.
We will all taste physical death as we inherited that from Adam.

Perhaps this will help:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
On the day ye shall eat of it you shall surely die; and yet Adam's body obviously did not die that day. Plainly his soul did not die either. He died a spiritual death and was no longer able to commune with God.
Mankind had to await a spiritual rebirth before entering into communion and fellowship with the Father again; man had to be born again.

Boanerges, I say this with much love and concern for you. This new doctrine you speak of ''Tripartite Nature of Man''. I have done a search on this and will continue to do some more study on it to try and understand what you are in and to help you back to the truth.



I have highlighted in red, which should raise a huge flag to you!

1Ti 6:12-16
(12) Fight the good fight for the Christian faith. Take hold of everlasting life to which you were called and about which you made a good testimony in front of many witnesses.
(13) In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and in the sight of Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony in front of Pontius Pilate,
(14) I insist that, until our Lord Jesus Christ appears, you obey this command completely. Then you cannot be blamed for doing anything wrong.
(15) At the right time God will make this known. God is the blessed and only ruler. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords.
(16) He is the only one who cannot die. He lives in light that no one can come near. No one has seen him, nor can they see him. Honor and power belong to him forever! Amen.

1. That is no new doctrine and is scripturally sound. I do understand that some facets of the Word are new to some and we are all learning.
2. I appreciate your concern.
3. You need look no farther than the Word of God to understand that He made us in hIs own image, and that is 3 parts (or tripartite).
Have a good day and grow in the knowledge of Christ and His Word.
4. You and I can completely disagree on this and both be saved of we are born again.
5. Scripture plainly demonstrates that the spirit of a man goes directly to God.
6. Scripture plainly demonstrates there are souls in heaven.
7. Yes our bodies die and are resurrected.
8. You have a right to your own opinion.

Red Emphasis and numbers mine:

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole 1spirit and 2soul and 3body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1+1+1 = 3 or 3 parts or tripartite. Study the scriptures well my friend and began to discern between the soulish and the inner man (spirit).
It is this inner man or born again spirit that communes with God, has the attributes and nature of His Lord and is free from sin.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


We get a new body at the resurrection. We receive new spiritual life from God when we are born again (Ezek 36:26) . It is our soul (mind, will, intellect. emotions. etc) He came to save.:shade:

 

[Mr.Lite]

After you die, then judgment.

God also does as he pleases. In other words; what ever pleases God, he does. Many actually come to God through a near death experience or like wise encounter either with God or apart from God after death.

In the end, you must poses faith in God to be with him You must accept your fate of which is to come; either with, or without him. We all have the choice, so make it life!

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Psalm 115:3 (NKJV)
3 But our God is in heaven;
He does whatever He pleases.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NKJV)
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

 

[Word of Life]

Originally Posted by Boanerges
5. Scripture plainly demonstrates that the spirit of a man goes directly to God.

You added a word ''man'', it does not say ''spirit of a man".

Ecc 12:7
(7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

1Co 5:4-5 (KJV)
(4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Your spirit will be saved when? On the day of the Lord, when is the day of Lord, Only God knows!

1Co 5:4-5 (GW)
(4) When you have gathered together, I am with you in spirit. Then, in the name of our Lord Jesus, and with his power,
(5) hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord.

The Word says ''the spirit (his spiritual nature)'' will be saved in the day of the Lord!

Now when is the day of the Lord?

1Th 5:1-2
(1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:9-10
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Unless the heavens has already passed away with a great noise, which we all know it hasn't yet! Then the Lords days has not yet come.

An Old Testament prophecy confirms this too!

Job 14:12-14
(12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
(13) O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
(14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

We are sleeping and waiting for our change to come, which will happen on the day of the Lord, just like God says in His Word.

Also, and as far as I can see, there are two resurrections! There's the firstfruits, whom Jesus is the first which slept, they that are raised in the first resurrection, they are blessed because death will have no power over them. Jesus and these priests of God needs to take care of a few things, before the rest come back to life (resurrected). Do a study on the white throne judgement?

1Co 15:20
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:23
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Note every man in his own order:

Rev 20:6
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Before we are born again, and you are right in saying we are born body and soul, so what did you receive at baptism!

1Co 5:4-5 (GW)
(4) When you have gathered together, I am with you in spirit. Then, in the name of our Lord Jesus, and with his power,
(5) hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Ask God to show you about the resurrections and more about the spiritual nature and the firstfruits, with Jesus being the first of those, which slept, it may help us and many others. Because who knows, only God knows, you, us may just be part of the first resurrection! Only God knows.

1Co 15:20
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

 

[Word of Life]

After you die, then judgment.

God also does as he pleases. In other words; what ever pleases God, he does. Many actually come to God through a near death experience or like wise encounter either with God or apart from God after death.

In the end, you must poses faith in God to be with him You must accept your fate of which is to come; either with, or without him. We all have the choice, so make it life!

Are you telling me, God has changed His prophecy, I think not!

Mat 16:23
(23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Why did Jesus say this to Peter, Why did Jesus call Peter satan? because Peter did not want Jesus to be crucified. Peter was very sincere and loved Jesus, but Peter, did not understand the importance of the crucifixion and why certain things needed to take place!

Yes, God can do what He likes, but He will not lead you away from His prophecy. He will lead you and reveal His son and His plan to you. He will show you His plan, His prophecy and what’s to come and what’s been fulfilled!

What did Jesus tell us, what would happen, when we receive the Holy Spirit?

Joh 16:8-13
(8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
(11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Ask God to show the prophecy, which He gave to the prophets and His Son, asking Him also for the mind of Christ.

Rev 22:18-19
(18) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy in this book: If anyone adds anything to this, God will strike him with the plagues that are written in this book.
(19) If anyone takes away any words from this book of prophecy, God will take away his portion of the tree of life and the holy city that are described in this book.

After you die, then judgment.

Yes we die and then the judgment.

When you die, your thoughts perish and the very first thoughts, that you will have will be the judgment, or if you are blessed, you could be of the firstfruits (Which only God knows who they are, I don't!) of those which slept.

Psa 146:4
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

2Ti 4:1
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Jesus will judge the quick and the dead at his appearing, when will he appear?

 

[Boanerges]

You added a word ''man'', it does not say ''spirit of a man".

Perhaps then it was the spirit of a cow, LOL.
So rather than a man's spirit (Pro 20:27) do you think that scripture was talkling about the Holy Spirit?
If so does the Holy Spirit need to leave here to be with God?
And what happens to man's spirit (1Co 2:11 )?
Seriously. I thing you are being arbitrary, but that is your right.
Even if you are right that does nothing to explain the souls crying out to God from under alter before the throne of God (Rev 6:9)
Blessings,
brother Larry.

 

[Boanerges]

Also, believers are not judged the way believers are. All our works can be burned up and yet we will be saved (1Co 3:15) as we (our sins) are judged in Christ, He has become our righteousness (2Co 5:21,1Co 1:30) and it is only in His imputed righteousness that we can stand.
One should not confuse the judgment of our works with our salvation or location.

 

[Word of Life]

Perhaps then it was the spirit of a cow, LOL.
So rather than a man's spirit (Pro 20:27) do you think that scripture was talkling about the Holy Spirit?
If so does the Holy Spirit need to leave here to be with God?
And what happens to man's spirit (1Co 2:11 )?
Seriously. I thing you are being arbitrary, but that is your right.
Even if you are right that does nothing to explain the souls crying out to God from under alter before the throne of God (Rev 6:9)
Blessings,
brother Larry.

Brother Larry, have you done a study on the breath of life, if so what did you see, and how do you see the breath of life?

Ecc 3:18-21
(18) I thought to myself, "God is going to test humans in order to show them that they are like animals."
(19) Humans and animals have the same destiny. One dies just like the other. All of them have the same breath of life. Humans have no advantage over animals. All of life is pointless.
(20) All life goes to the same place. All life comes from the ground, and all of it goes back to the ground.
(21) Who knows whether a human spirit goes upward or whether an animal spirit goes downward to the earth?

According to the above, animals have a spirit too!

1Co 5:4-5 (KJV)
(4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

''the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus'' What spirit will be saved on the Lord day!

 

[Word of Life]

I have been giving this some more thought, and will take it slowly:-

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Lets back up a few sciptures to see whats being said:

Heb 4:10-16
(10) Those who entered his place of rest also rested from their work as God did from his.
(11) So we must make every effort to enter that place of rest. Then no one will be lost by following the example of those who refused to obey.
(12) God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions.
(13) No creature can hide from God. Everything is uncovered and exposed for him to see. We must answer to him.
(14) We need to hold on to our declaration of faith: We have a superior chief priest who has gone through the heavens. That person is Jesus, the Son of God.
(15) We have a chief priest who is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. He was tempted in every way that we are, but he didn't sin.
(16) So we can go confidently to the throne of God's kindness to receive mercy and find kindness, which will help us at the right time.

So what is that verse telling you?

 

[evangeline]

heaven, eternity and time

I have always understood or rather believed that when we die we go directly to our eternal destinations and then we will all gather at the appointed time for judgement so that all can know for sure we deserve where we land up.

BUT...the word speaks so much about the resurrections and to 'sleep' and to 'perish', if we take the true definition of these words they mean what they say.

Hi Beam,

At this present time we are bound by the dimension of time and it is difficult to comprehend things without this dimension; and yet God and eternity are not bound by time.

I believe that if I die right now I will suddenly find myself in the next phase of my eternal life, in heaven. And I speculate that at that moment, when I am in heaven, all believers will be there with me at the same "time", resurrected for the Bema Judgment, even those who are yet to be born on earth.

I know this sounds stange, but think about it. This way most of the verses about entering the next phase of our eternal life make sense.

I do not believe in the concept of soul sleep. This concept has little Biblical support. "Asleep" is just a nice way of saying "dead".

Also, I do not necessarily think that heaven is our final destination as believers. Jesus clearly and continually promised eternal life for his followers!!! However it never says explicitly in the Bible that: "when we die we go to heaven". Can you think of any verses that specifically mention heaven in that context?

I only know of a few verses that imply that heaven is our final destination, and yet it is a major doctrine of the church! Many people view heaven as a kind of glorifed rest home or resort. Is this correct?

I speculate that after the Judgment we may be reassigned; perhaps to the New Earth (2 Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1; also Is 65:17, 66:22) or even some distant part of the universe. We may even be leaders. (See Luke 19:11-26.)

All I know for sure is that our future as believers will be glorious, that an incomprehensible inheritance awaits us, that we will be in God's Presence and that we will either have rewards, or miss out, depending on our obedience, devotion and faithfulness. (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)

Quite frankly, Heaven and eternity are beyond our comprehension, and simple "Sunday school explanations" leave a lot to be desired.


evangeline