Backsliders; Saved or Lost?

[HoneyBare]

Quote: Backsliders do not repent with a whole heart...period. It crosses there mind..."Hmmm...I need to get back in the good graces of the Lord", and yet they go on in sin until they think of it again. Which, by the way would indeed be the love of God reaching out to them. So if they get hit by a bus, having rejected God gentle calling for the umpteenth time, they wake up on Jesus knee being lavished with love? End Quote

I have not read this whole thread, but the last few posts between Verosity and Shiplostsoul have caused me to respond. The above quote made me wonder though if there really was a simple answer here. I think God is the only one who can determine if a person is backslidden, or just not mature in Christ enough to know better.

When I backslid, I had repented with all my heart, and surrendered all my heart to Him. But, I fell into sin again because I had not learned how to be strong yet. . . or even that I could be strong. I still had lots to learn. I don't think I had the thought, "Hmmm...I need to get back in the good graces of the Lord." I just fell into the same traps I always fell into, even though I knew it was wrong. I didn't have to try very hard, it just came easily.

I even kept it to myself for a long time, without telling anyone because I was afraid of their disappointment. I had not learned yet that they would be understanding and willing to help me.

So I think it depends on a lot of situations like how long a person has been saved and what he knows at the point when he backslides. And only God knows all that. Even if a Christian has been a Christian for a long time, he may still be drinking milk because of what he was taught and not mature enough to know better.

I'm glad I had a Christian forum site to help me and get me back on track though, and the Holy Spirit Who spoke to me and told me why I was always falling back into sin. It was just the opposite of what was mentioned. I would never have had the thought that I was "there" and need not worry about going to hell. Instead I instinctly thought I had gone off the deep end and could never be loved by God again.

It doesn't matter what we think anyway, or how we express our beliefs to eachother. What matters is between us and God. Only what God knows is what matters in the end. I don't think a backslider will be surprised really, where he ends up. He knows himself as much as God does, and it's what's deep down inside us that really matters most in the end.

There, that's just my own thoughts on the subject. I may be way off.

 

[Boanerges]

Never underestimate the power of His grace to reach such a one. I have been such a one myself and it was His love that overtook me and changed me.

Never underestimate the Father's love as He stands by the roadside ring and robe in hand awaiting the prodical's return.

Lastly never underestimate your own power to stumble and be willing to give as much compassion, as much grace and as much mercy as you yourself need when dealing with others.

God alone is judge and He alone knows the beginning from the end.

 

[ruafreak4jesus]

I don't know about you....but I don't want to get to heaven and be in the presence of people who can't believe they actually made it to heaven! I know this is a touchy subject, but God has given us the choice and if we choose to walk, that is our choice! Blasphemy is the unforgivable and if someone is choosing to walk away from God and Blasphemes his name....I don't see how they will be present in His glory!
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I don't do a very good job explaining myself, so I apologize for that. I do not believe once saved always saved and I think you may be deceiving yourself if you do believe that. There is grace, praise GOD, but the way I see it, if you have tasted God's grace and choose to walk away, were you really saved to begin with? Only God knows....but I think that in heaven we will be surrounded with people whom know and love our Lord and Savior, and really want to be there! Please correct me if I'm wrong....I don't understand the other arguments...

 

[Hislovendures]

By His Grace and by our heart!

Really enjoyed this.

In Revelation 3, the messages to the Churches, one of the verses read like this, "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; ".

I would think that the backslider must still be repentant and not continually sinning and assuming that all is okay, even when they continually live in sin, just because at some point they accepted Christ. That makes them dead in Christ.

He wrote the name in the book, but can also blot it out. What do you think?

(Remember we are saved by Our Lord Jesus through His Blood and Grace. Then we are sealed
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
(We may confess Jesus, we may act like Christ, yet He knows our hearts and our minds
Acts 15:8
God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
(David, when he was being chased by his enemies, cried out to God, His Lord, to blot out these enemies from the book of life, even here, God knows who to blot out.)
Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
(Here the Lord promises not to blot out those who overcome, overcome what? What keeps us from the presence of God and Jesus in His Spirit?
Sin! Now we are not able to accomplish this by ourselves, we need to be led by His Spirit, but remember, God knows all and He knows what one is going through in their life
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
(Many will think that they are saved, yet Jesus knows your heart!)
Luke 13:27
But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’
{If I truly receive His Salvation and He seals me with His Spirit, but believe that I can fall to eternal death if I do not keep myself Holy, then am I not saved by the Law and not by Grace? Grace is Gods Heart in the Law! Look in the heart with His Spirit and you will find His Wisdom in His Word!}
*Remember, Salvation begins with true repentance through Jesus Christ, when repentance is not given, growth in the Lord is hindered and His Blessing upon you for obedience is needed to keep our walk with Gods Word in Christ through His Spirit! *

 

[complete]

Revelation 3:5

'He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will not blot out his name from the book of life.'

Hi there,

How is it possible for a true believer in Christ to have his name blotted out? The teaching of Romans 8 as to our standing in Christ is the very opposite of this.

'There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, (the remainder of this verse is not in the original manuscripts, but is a repeat of what comes later in verse 4) . However its inclusion here has caused many to use the words ('who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit) as a 'corrective', saying - 'yes, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, but only in as much as they are walking according to the Spirit.' However this is not true, and only diminishes the wonderful truth of the first part of the verse.

The whole of chapter 8 needs to be read , but that statement stands alone in isolated splendour. 'There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus'.

One thing is sure 'the Lord knows those who are His', but it is as well to take note also of the remainder of that verse, for it says, 'and, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.' (2 Timothy 2:19) Again the whole of that chapter needs to be read.

In Christ
Chris

[PS: As far as Revelation 3:5 is concerned, the Church (as we know it) is not the subject of this portion of scripture]

 

[complete]

Hi (again)

As far as 'backsliding' is concerned, if a person has truly come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, then the process of sanctification has begun in Him.

There will not necessarily be a change of life immediately, that change is dependant on the degree to which he is exposed to the Word of God, for it is the Word of God which is the means by which the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, of righteousness and holiness, and exposes the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12) and in so doing brings the soul to acknowledge the degree of the grace afforded him in Christ Jesus.

That sometimes takes the buffeting of a period of 'falling away' to make this clear to the individual concerned, but nothing is lost, for all things do work together for good to those who are called according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

It is then that the Holy Spirit teaches him the absolute surety of the efficacy of that one all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ on his behalf.

I believe that the process that begins with that initial 'seed of faith' in the believer is one which God carries through until the day of Christ. (Philippians 1:6) And that nothing can separate the believer from His Lord (Romans 8:38).

Some of us have to learn the hard way unfortunately, and just like the coconut, which is so hard a nut to crack that before it can break open and bear fruit, it has to be tossed around the oceans of the world and beaten against rocks before it cracks, and finds the location where it can take root and bear fruit, sometimes we too need the hard knocks and 'falling away' process to make us malleable and teachable by the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Chris

 

[Veracity]

I think perhaps I have been misunderstood...one more try here :wink:

In my 'opinion' according to scripture and according to examples in the word, once saved always saved, does not fly. Period.

God is never changing, He is a Holy God. He has has already judged sin, and the wages of such is death. Now when we come to Christ, we repent, we turn from sin, and we are no longer our own, but His. He certainly said that none could pluck us from His hand so to speak, but if we wriggle our way out into the world and choose to stay there, how does a Holy God fill a vessel that has become a vessel of sin, with no repentance?

God loves the backslider!! I don't doubt that he will set many things in their path to steer them back to where they need to be, but if they never repent, all that is left is the original wrath for the judgement of sin.

It would be very unfortunate for a Christian to let someone who has turned from the Lord believe they have nothing to fear on their final day, because they said they had 'believed' at some point.

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

I most definitely am not into all the legalism many churches are into, everything is spiritual, not anything physical that you must do to be "righteous", the scribes and the pharisees had head knowledge, we are supposed to know the "truth" by heart. If they in all their "knowledge" couldn't make it, all their rules and "rituals" that they made sure they followed were not seen as acceptable to the Lord, how can a backslider be acceptable for the Kingdom of heaven?

No we are not under the law, we are by the blood and spirit in a place to overcome such, but if we fail, we REPENT!! Immediately!! Not when ever we get to the judgment!!

Maybe I am saying it all wrong and being misunderstood, bottom line is, if you Love the Lord, you are not in an alley scoring a little dope now and then, you are not in a bar drunk on your duff looking for a new soul mate every Friday or Saturday night, or drunk on your duff alone at home for that matter, your not talking crap on your neighbor, your not ignoring other Christians because they don't think the way you think, your not cheating or beating a spouse, your not telling just "little white lies". You don't hate people that have wronged you, you don't put anything before your GOD, NOTHING!!!

The ten commandments seem to have been tossed aside as unimportant now that we have the "Blood", but the blood was shed in vain if the Christian does not look at them and see them as a mirror in Gods bathroom every morning!!

I hope someone understands what I am saying.

 

[jiggyfly]

It's obvious that of the two concepts or opinions represented in this thread (OSAS and NOSAS) both cannot be right but it is very possible that both can be wrong.:shade:

 

[complete]

Hi Veracity,

* In reply to your point, (quote)

'It would be very unfortunate for a Christian to let someone who has turned from the Lord believe they have nothing to fear on their final day, because they said they had 'believed' at some point. '

Yes, Veracity, we will all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of the service we have rendered in life, and there are many who will suffer loss (1 Cor. 3:15), but what they will not lose is life, for that is a gift of God (Rom. 6:23), and the gifts and callings of God are without repentance (Rom. 11:29). There is 'a prize' to be lost, 'a crown' to be won, the opportunity of 'reigning' with Christ for faithfulness. All of this glory can be forfeited, but not that gift of life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

* Another point that you raise is, (quote)

'Matt.5:20 'For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven'

I am glad that you have quoted this verse for it is only recently that I have come to appreciate it's meaning. For the only 'righteousness' that exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees - is God's own righteousness, which He by wondrous grace imputes to those who come to Him in simple trust in the all-sufficient sacrifice of His Beloved Son. (see Rom. 3:20-25)

The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was capable of attainment by the keeping of the law, but the righteousness of God can only become ours by faith. It is a position of absolute faith and trust in the fullness of the grace of God, and again - 'a gift' (Rom. 5:17), which God will not repent of, and is the only 'righteousness' that is acceptable in God's sight.

I do understand what you are saying Veracity, but then again only the Lord knows who are His, giving lip service to something doesn't necessarily mean that the heart and mind are engaged, and only the Lord knows our heart. So we just have to leave it in the Lord's hands, I guess, regarding anothers walk, and make sure that we are walking in accordance with His will for us. For we are all answerable to Him alone aren't we.

We have a responsibility to 'walk worthily', and it is that walk that is judged, but our 'standing' before God remains constant and sure I believe, because it is entirely His Own work, which cannot be marred in any way by human influence.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Veracity]

2 Corinthians 6: 1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.(ties with 1st Commandment) 2 For He says:
“ In an acceptable time I have heard you,
And in the day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
(and)
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore
“ Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “ I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”

(Why would such be in heaven together with us if we are to stay apart from them here?)
___________________________________________________________

Galations 5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(If you return to being under the law by not walking in the spirit, then you are judged according to)
AND
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
_____________________________________________________

I am not trying to be harsh, but I think the whole purpose is to war to win, not to walk with the enemy and still be justified by a faith that has no purpose, it is very contradictory. I think it is a treason. Id rather leave a backslider wanting to think he needs to return to walking in the spirit than to leave him or her thinking they've 'been there done that got a Salvation T-shirt and a pass to the Kingdom' regardless of how they live. That is why so many people find Christians to be hypocrites, they see nothing is any different if no one becomes a new creature in Christ. I am not alone in thinking there are many 'in church' Christians in danger of such.

Just my way of seeing things.

 

[ruafreak4jesus]

Veracity, having followed this conversation I have been blessed by it all. I can see both sides of this issue as it is being presented here, and I truly enjoy growing through this site! I remember a while back we had an evangelical talent group come to our church. They had a huge program that showcased some awesome talent. The show ended each night with a very powerfull message that brought many people forward to accept Christ. I know that many if not most of the 120+ people who went forward during that week (some of them more then once) are no longer fellowshiping in our body. They may have gone somewhere else, granted....or for whatever reason....simply don't attend church. The Gospel of Matthew in the parable of the sower and the seeds describes this event perfectly. Some land in soil, some hit rocks, some thorns and they wither etc. Often the seed is planted, yet for some reason it doesn't take. I think that Jesus woudn't have took the time to explain that parable to his deciples if that issue was not a problem. If the rapture took place this Sunday there would be a lot of people sitting in the pews wondering where everyone went! I don't think we can loose our salvation, but we can walk away from it.... and He will spew out many whom He don't know their name.

 

[complete]

Hi,

Someone I know came to know the Lord as Saviour in a Billy Graham rally here in the UK when she was 17, her boyfriend spoke scathingly of her new found faith, but she went on to marry him, bore children and lived a life seemingly having no particular faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

She did not attend a place of worship or say or do anything that indicated that she had a faith at all. She lived an upright life, and in the eyes of the world was a person of exceptional character, but was not known as a person who had faith.

Then out of the blue at the age of 70 (!!) she started to bear fruit, and thirsted for the Word of God, and is now a mature Christian whose sole desire is to glorify her Lord. God woke her up to Himself.

He is not bound by our understanding of a matter, and His timing is perfect - His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways not our ways, so it is best not to judge a situation like this for only the Lord knows those who are His, and He is able to make them stand.

There are vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour - we have a choice which of these we will be in God's service.

A lot of people are swept along by the emotion of a rally and make commitments verbally, but who have no abiding faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, only He can know who are His.

In Christ
Chris

 

[ruafreak4jesus]

Complete, you say that "God woke her up to Himself"? God is at the door knocking. He never left her! She left him! He wants all of us to come to Him and He waits for us to see our need for Him! His timing is perfect and praise God for her seeing her need for Christ in her life! Your friend made a commitment to know the Lord as her Savior at the ralley, but she did not move forward with that committment...at least publically. He wants to see us walk with Him daily. But, when someone chooses to walk the broad path instead of the narrow path God is the only one who knows the heart and He will decide (as you pointed out). A prayer early on in life with no fruit or evidence of a Christ centered life is a life that biblically is not one of His,.... which in this case...., you can't really say she backslide because she never moved forward in her relationship. So, would you say she was saved at the ralley or around the age of 70? That begs the question....if she would have died at 50...would she have been saved?

 

[complete]

Quote: 'if she would have died at 50...would she have been saved'

Hi,

I personally believe that she would have, yes.

This is interesting isn't it. Actually looking back over her life (she was my sister by the way, I was a late arrival in the family, so that many years separated us) I believe that the events of her life show the hand of the Lord upon her, and I believe (for reasons I can't elaborate on) that there was a very good reason why the Lord allowed her to remain in that dormant state for so long. The harvest of fruit borne in her since He broke into her consciousness and revealed Himself to her in all His fulness, through the study of His Word, has been a joy to behold, for which I thank the Lord. (she is now 73)

No, as you say, 'He never left Her' - all praise to the glory of His grace!

With love 'in Christ Jesus'
Our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head

Chris

 

[Coconut]

This is a very important point. True backsliders; those who take the message of the gospel into their heart-of-hearts where it begins to take root and then are lured back toward the world, are like fish who take the bait deep into their mouths and try to run with it. Eventually the appeal of running - the appeal of the world - grows dim and they get weary. The Great Fisherman pulls back on the rod, sets the hook, and reels them in to make their salvation complete (see Php 2:12-13).

SLE

That is one of the best analogies I`ve ever read...

(stay on your chair!) :wink:

 

[Coconut]

It's obvious that of the two concepts or opinions represented in this thread (OSAS and NOSAS) both cannot be right but it is very possible that both can be wrong.:shade:

I`m not sure I can or should take this debate seriously...its rather a lot of vain jangling over theories, considering (and I think i`ve made this point somewhere here before) in regards to eternal life, the scripture only speaks of salvation as our goal, not something we already possess.

1Pe 1:5 Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of time.
1Pe 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you have to suffer various kinds of trials,
1Pe 1:7 so that the genuineness of your faith, which is more valuable than gold that perishes when it is tested by fire, may result in praise, glory, and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
1Pe 1:8 Though you have not seen him, you love him. And even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy,
1Pe 1:9 because you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].



Keep running...and dont sell your birthright...

Heb 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up and causes you trouble, or many of you will become defiled. No one should be immoral or godless like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterwards, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected because he could not find any opportunity to repent, even though he begged for it with tears.


Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith;

 

[farouk]

John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life."

 

[SpiritLedEd]

you can't really say she backslide because she never moved forward in her relationship. So, would you say she was saved at the ralley or around the age of 70? That begs the question....if she would have died at 50...would she have been saved?

I have maintained for some time that salvation is both an event and a process (see Php 2:12-13). I believe that when we confess Jesus as Lord and Savior for the first time, our Spirit-anointed life begins; we are babes in Christ and that, just as in the natural, there is a process of development that must take place before we reach a level of maturity wherein we begin to produce fruit (see 1 Cor 3:1-2).

For the lady in our story, the gestation period was lengthy. But, no matter, for she is following the path He laid out for her. If she had died at 50 she would still have been saved because God knows that her confession of Christ was heartfelt and genuine and He would have acted accordingly.

SLE

 

[farouk]

Furthermore, the Epistle of John was written to give believers in the Lord Jesus the assurance of eternal life.

 

[complete]

Life Through His Name

John 20:30,31

'... And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, Which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.'