The Mormoms

[Boanerges]

continued:
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1. What about "the natural man"?
   
   • BoM Mosiah 3:19 says "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless [he becomes a follower of Christ]" (see also 1 Cor 2:14)
   • George Q. Cannon (member of the First Presidency) said: "The natural man is at enmity with Christ and with God;..." (JoD 21:79). BUT:
     
   • D&C 84:46�47 says that it is the UNnatural that should be avoided (implying that natural things are good): �(For) every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit avoids every unnatural, unholy, and impure practice, (and) cometh unto God, even the Father.�
   • Brigham Young said: "Paul says in his Epistle to the Corinthians, 'But the natural man receiveth not the things of God,' but I say it is the unnatural man that receiveth not the things of God. That which was, is and will continue to endure is more natural than that which will pass away and be no more. The natural man is of God." (JoD 9:305).
2. Should we seek a miraculous sign of the truth of the Book of Mormon?
   
   • BoM Moroni 10:4 says yes:
     
     "...ask God...if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."​
     BUT:
     
   • BoM Alma 32:17-21 condemns those who require a sign to believe; one should simply have faith. See also (condemning those who seek a sign) D&C 63:7-11, Matt 12:39, Luke 11: 29.
3. Will people be punished for the sins of their ancestors?
   
   • The second "Article of Faith" says that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for someone else's transgression. (See also Deut 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, Jer 31:30, D&C 101:78) BUT:
     
   • The BoM teaches that the Lamanites were cursed with a dark skin because of the sins of their ancestors, a curse which the church teaches is the explanation for the dark skin of the Native Americans, even those who are righteous members of the church See also D&C 98:39-46, where the Lord promises to punish to the third and fourth generation the descendants of Joseph Smith's enemies (echoing Deut 5:9 and many other Bible passages).
     
4. Should Mormons obey the civil law?
   
   • The twelfth "Article of Faith" says: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." D&C 58:21 says: "Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land." (See also Jesus' teaching, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" - Matt 22:21)
     BUT:
     
   • when it was not convenient for Mormons to obey the law, Mormon leaders often flouted it, usually citing the principle that God's Law trumps civil law. Examples:
     
     • Joseph Smith performed many marriages without proper authorization from the civil government to do so.
     • Joseph Smith entered into numerous polygamous marriages in violation of the criminal laws at the time forbidding bigamy.
     • Joseph Smith set up a bank in Ohio without a banking license from the state, for which he was fined.
     • At the time of his death, Smith was in prison on a charge stemming from his illegal destruction of a printing press owned by his critics.
     • When laws were passed by the U.S. government forbidding the practice of polygamy in the late 19th century, the Mormons continued to practice it, asserting that the "law of God" superceded any human law. After the church formally renounced the practice in 1890, in accordance with the law (in order to gain Utah's admission to the Union), many church officials continued secretly to disobey the law by performing polygamous marriages and by entering into such marriages themselves.
5. Should there be a paid ministry?
   
   • D&C 42:71-73 says yes: elders, high priests and bishops should receive support and "remuneration" for their services. BUT:
     
   • BoM 2 Ne 26:31, Mosiah 27:5, 18:24, Alma 1:2-3, 1:20, 30:32-35 (and Bible Acts 20:33-34, 2 Cor 11:9, 2 Thess 3:8) say they should support themselves.
     
     (The present practice of the church is that only the upper echelons in the church hierarchy receive salaries and other remuneration, as well as those employed as full-time teachers, secretaries, etc. Local-level elders, bishops, high priests, missionaries, etc., support themselves by outside employment.)​
6. What about tithing?
   
   • BoM Morm 8:32 says that false churches will tell you that your sins are forgiven if you pay them money. BUT:
     
   • D&C 64:23 says that those who pay tithing (to the church) will "not be burned" (presumably because their sins will have been forgiven).
7. What is the power of Christ's redemption?
   
   • BoM Mosiah 15:9 says his death satisfied demands of justice. BUT:
     
   • Mosiah 15:27 says that justice cannot be denied.
8. Is the Book of Mormon the whole gospel?
   
   • BoM 1 Nephi 13:24, 10:14, 15:13 imply that the BoM restores the "fulness";
     D&C 20:9 says the BoM contains the "fulness of the Gospel"; also 27:5, 42:12;
     D&C 10:67-68 says the complete gospel is repentance - whoever declares more is "against" me;
     2 Nephi 32:3 says that the words of Christ (in the BoM) will tell you everything you must do;
     Mosiah 18:18-20 says to teach nothing but repentance and faith.At BoM 3 Nephi 11:31-40 Jesus declares that his "doctrine" is faith, repentance and baptism, and that "whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil..." and will go to hell (v 40)
     BUT:
     
   • BoM 3 Nephi 26:9 says this is just a test; more will come; and of course many current Mormon doctrines are not in the BoM (eternal marriage, many gods, word of wisdom, Melchizedek/Aaronic priesthood, work for the dead, to name just a few; for a more complete listing, click here).
9. Instructions for missionaries: Go singly or in pairs?
   
   • At D&C 42:6 God commands missionaries to go "two by two" when preaching the gospel (this revelation was given February 9, 1831; see also 52:10). This follows the pattern set by Jesus in sending out his seventy (Luke 10:1). BUT:
     
   • On March 30, 1836, Joseph Smith (HoC 2:431) "...the Elders would go forth, and each must stand for himself, as it was not necessary for them to be sent out, two by two, as in former times..."
10. Instructions for missionaries: Should they take money and provisions ("purse and scrip") along for their support?
    
    • D&C 84:86, 91 says: "Therefore, let no man among you ... from this hour take purse or scrip, that goeth forth to proclaim this gospel of the kingdom... And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples." (See also v 78 and D&C 24:18; also Matt 10:9-10, Luke 10:4) BUT:
      
    • All Mormon missionaries now carry money and do not rely on the charity of those to whom they preach for support. Missionaries (or their families) support themselves.
11. Instructions for missionaries and speakers: Should they plan what to preach?
    
    • D&C 84:85 says: "Neither take ye thought beforehand what ye shall say [when preaching]: George Q. Cannon (First Presidency) said: "We are commanded to be subject to the direction of the Holy Spirit when we arise to speak; for if we speak as we should do, it is not we who speak, but it is the Spirit of God which speaks through us. On this account, the Elders of the Church do not, at least as a rule, prepare themselves before hand with either written or memorized sermons, for if they were to do so, they would depart from the order of heaven, and would prove utter failures." Ogden, (Weber Stake Conference), Sunday Morning, July 21, 1889
      BUT:
      
    • Mormon missionaries are trained intensively for several weeks before embarking on their mission in the "Uniform System For Teaching the Gospel," published in a series of booklets , giving exact wording for six sessions of lessons to be given to prospective converts. The accompanying instructions state (p. 1) that this system "is the approved set of missionary discussions for teaching investigators." For each discussion, the instructions to the missionary are: "Master the information in this column ['Discussion (What You Teach)']." Missionaries are instructed: "Do not digress..." (p. 2)
      Update: In January 2003, the church announced that it was modifying its missionary methods so that missionaries could rely on the "spirit" rather than memorized presentations, thus reversing a practice of over fifty years. It appears, then, that the church has decided to follow its own scriptures in this regard.​
      However, the General Authorities do not follow D&C 84:85: their sermons in general conference are carefully prepared beforehand and submitted to a committee for approval. Even the prayers offered during general conference are written ahead of time.
12. What did God think of John C. Bennett?
    
    Dr. John C. Bennett converted to the church at Nauvoo in 1840 and quickly became one of Joseph Smith's closest advisers. He was sustained as "Assistant President" of the church April 8, 1841, a position which he held for over a year. He was excommunicated in 1842 and wrote a book exposing the Mormon practice of polygamy.​
    • On January 19, 1841 (notice the date!), God said (D&C 124: 16�17):
      Again, let my servant John C. Bennett help you in your labor in sending my word to the kings and people of the earth, and stand by you, even you my servant Joseph Smith, in the hour of afflictions; and his reward shall not fail if he receive counsel.
      And for his love he shall be great, for he shall be mine if he do this, saith the Lord. I have seen the work he hath done, which I accept if he continue, and will crown him with blessings and great glory. [emphasis added]​
      BUT:
      
    • Joseph Smith reported in the History of the Church, 5:42-43, the following, quoting his letter to the governor of Illinois:
      About the early part of July, 1841, I received a letter from Pittsburg, Pennsylvania; in it was contained information setting forth that said Bennett had a wife and two or three children then living. This I read to him, and he acknowledged it was true. ... It can be proven by hundreds of witnesses that he is one of the basest of liars, and that his whole routine of proceedings, while among us, has been of the basest kind.​
      Comment: Didn't God know (before July 1841) that Bennett was a lying deceiver?
13. What was the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 and later delivered to him the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated?
    
    • Most Mormons believe his name was "Moroni," as reported in modern editions of the PoGP (JS-History 1:33). BUT:
      
    • The earliest reports by Joseph Smith and others gave his name as "Nephi" (a completely different character in the BoM who supposedly lived a thousand years before Moroni), including the 1851 edition of the PoGP, the 1853 biography of Smith by his mother (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith p 79), and two early Mormon periodicals The Millennial Star 3:53, 71, and Times and Seasons 3:749, 753 (the latter personally edited by Smith himself).
14. What are the correct words to be used when baptizing?
    
    • BoM 3 Nephi 11:24-25 says that Jesus commanded as follows:
      "And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying:
      Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.​
      BUT:
    • D&C 20:73 says that the words should be:
      "[The baptizer] shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.​
      BUT:
    • When Alma baptized Helam (BoM Mosiah 18:11-14) he said:
      "Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world."​
      Comment: The Church Handbook of Instructions (p. 36, 2006 edition) says: "The baptism must be repeated if the words are not spoken exactly as given in Doctrine and Covenants 20:73," implying that otherwise the baptism is not valid. It would seem that either the BoM baptisms were not valid, or the modern church has changed the ordinance (which they say was established at the beginning of the world - and the true church does not change sacred ordinances).​
15. Should we "worship" Jesus?
    
    • The Bible says YES:
      "Thou shalt have no ofher gods before me." (Ex 20:3) Verse 5 implies that only the God giving this commandment should be worshipped. (Mormons believe that Jesus and the Jehovah of the OT are one and the same personage; thus, it is Jesus who gave this commandment.)​
      His followers worshipped him, apparently without his rebuking them: "And when they [the eleven disciples] saw him, they worshipped him...." (Matthew 28:17; see also Matthew 8:2, 9:18, 14:13, 15:25,18:26, 28:9, Mark 5:6, Luke 24:52, John 9:38)​
    • The Book of Mormon says YES:
      "And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his [Jesus'] feet, and did worship him; and as many as could come for the multitude did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears." (3 Nephi 17:10; see also 3 Nephi 11:17; this also apparently without any rebuke from Jesus).​
      BUT:
      
    • Apostle Bruce R. McConkie says NO:
      "We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense -- the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to Him who has redeemed us"- "Our relationship with the Lord" a devotional speech given March 2, 1982, at Brigham Young University​
    • McConkie says, in the same speech:
      "Another peril is that [they] begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this connection a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence: `Because the Savior is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through His Son.' This is plain sectarian nonsense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to Him only. They do not go through Christ, ..."​
    • The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, article "God the Father" says NO:
      "Latter-day Saints worship and pray to the Father and offer all other sacred performances to him in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ.".​
16. Is God's love unconditional?
    
    • The First Presidency said YES:
      To love completely with a wholeness even as Christ loved, to manifest a mature and unconditional love in all human relations, would minimize many fears. [emphasis added] -First Presidency Message: "With an Eye Single to His Glory," Ensign, Dec. 1971​
      Elder Ronald E. Poelman (First Council of Seventy) said YES:
      God is our father; he loves us; his love is infinite and unconditional. His sorrow is great when we disobey his commandments and break his laws. He cannot condone our transgressions, but he loves us and wants us to return to him. I know of no greater inducement to repentance and reconciliation with our Father in Heaven than an awareness of his unconditional love for us personally and individually. [emphasis added] - "God's Love for Us Transcends Our Transgressions," Ensign, May 1982, p. 27​
      Apostle Marvin J. Ashton said YES:
      The greatest example of love available to all of us is, of course, found in the scripture from John: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son.' (John 3:16.) By the greatest of all acts of love and by this supreme sacrifice, God set the pattern. He demonstrated to us that His love was unconditional and sufficient to encircle every person. [emphasis added] - "We Serve That Which We Love," Ensign, May 1981, p. 22​
      BUT:
    • Apostle Russell M. Nelson said NO:
      Divine love is also conditional. While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. The word does not appear in the scriptures. On the other hand, many verses affirm that the higher levels of love the Father and the Son feel for each of us - and certain divine blessings stemming from that love - are conditional.
      
      Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since 'God is love,' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception.
      
      The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional - predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. [emphasis added] - "Divine Love," Ensign, Feb. 2003, p. 20​
      Comment: It seems that Apostle Nelson is very close to calling his fellow prophets "anti-Christs".
17. What is the "first principle" of the gospel?
    
    • The "Articles of Faith," Article 4, says that the first principles are: "first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism...; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." BUT:
      
    • Joseph Smith said: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us..." ("King Follett Discourse," Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345)
18. Should we "look to the past"?
    
    • Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley says yes "it's always good to look at the past.
      BUT:
      
    • Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley says no: "forget the past!"
      

© 2003 Richard Packham Permission granted to reproduce for non-commercial purposes, provided text is not changed and this copyright notice is included[/SIZE]

 

[Boanerges]

Then there are the outright contradictions to Scripture (the Bible):


Contradictions between the Book of
Mormon and the Bible
*BOM (Book of Mormon)
The Jaredites had their own language before
the Tower of Babel? “Yes Ester 1:34-35 BOM,
but “no” according to Gen 11:1.
Who was Melquisedec? He was king under his
father (Alma 13:18) but the Bible says he had no
genealogy, he was “without father” (Heb 7:3).
Who were ordained by God to be priests? The
tribe of Manasses BOM, but Bible says the Levis
(Num 3:9-10).
Did they use the firstborn for the sacrifice?
According to BOM (Mosiah 2:3) yes, but the Bible
says it was prohibited, instead they were
designated for the priest’s personal use (Ex 13:2,
12; 22:29-30; Num 3:13; 18:15-18; 2Sam 24:24).
Did they kill all the sons of Zedekiah? Bible,
yes Jer 39:6. BOM no Heleman 6:10 and 8:21.
The Temple – The faithful in the BOM operated
several temples at the same time, but God
commanded Israel to build only one single temple
because they had only 1 God (Deu 12:5; 13-14;
16:5-6), and this unique temple had to be built in
Jerusalem (Zion) (1Ki 8:44, 48; 11:13, 32, 36;
14:21; 2Ki 21:7; 23:27; 1Ch 28:4; 2Ch 6:6; 7:12,
16; Psa 78:68-69; Isa 18:7.
What is missing in the Mormon Temple and
their priesthood – laver of bronze occurs 13
times in the Bible and never in the BOM, the
incense 121 times, the ark of the covenant 48x,
the altar 23 times, and the Day of Atonement 21x.
Synagogues. BOM uses the word “synagogue”
25 times as if it was well known. According to
BOM the people in America (Mormons) are
spoken of as using synagogues (600 B.C.), but
that would have been totally before the
synagogue system or even the need of
synagogues (it was supposed before the
captivity). Archaeology indicates that the system
began about 200 years before Christ.
Speaking before their time – 1 Nephi 22:15
cites Malachi 4:1. How can they quote Malachi
before Malachi existed?
Where was Jesus born? Bethlehem Mat 2:1, 8,
but Alma 7:10 says Jerusalem.
When Jesus died, the sky was darkened for 3
hours or 3 days? Luke 23:44 says 3 hours, but
Helaman 14:17-27 says 3 days.
When was the first use of the word
“Christian”? In Antioch around 50 A.D (Acts
11:26) or in 73 BC (Alma 46:5, 13, 17).
When did they first know the gospel? Through
Paul (Eph 3:3-7; Col 1:26; 1Pet 1:1-12; Rom
16:25-26) or 545 BC (2 Nephi 25:19; 26:12; 30:2;
31:17).
When did they know that the name “Jesus”
was the Messiah? In the Bible, this name was
first announced to Mary in Luke 1:31, but Alma
19:29 has a woman calling on Lord “Jesus” in 90
B.C.
When did the Holy Spirit come? Luke 24:49
and Acts 2:14 say on the day of Pentecost, but 2
Nephi 31:12-13 places it at 545 B.C.
When did the church begin? Mat 16:18; and
Acts 2:47 place it after the ministry of Jesus
Christ, but Mosiah 18:17 puts it at 147 B.C. Why
did Jesus enter the temple and synagogues when
the church was already in existence having
services elsewhere? ¿Why did God reveal the
Messiah to the Jews in the temple then? This
makes no sense if we try to take the BOM as
inspired.
Is our Bible corrupt? A Nephite prophet (1Nephi
13:26-28) said (600 B.C.) that “many clear and
precious parts” of the Bible have been removed.
But Jesus said that the heavens and the earth
would disappear before the Word of God would
be (Mark 13:31; Mat 5:18). Moreover, “Bible” (2
Nephi 29:3 550 B.C.) is a word of Greek origin
1500 years after this use by the supposed
Nephite prophet in 600 B.C., and the BOM
supposedly is of Egyptian origin, that were a
people that did not know nor use books (codices)
but rather papyrus.
Do children sin? Yes according to Psa 51:5;
Rom 3:23) but the BOM says no (Moroni 8:8).
Did Jesus ascend directly to heaven or did he
visit America? 3 Nephi 11:8-10 says he visited
America first, but Acts 2:34-35 says that he
ascended to heaven to wait at the Father’s side
until he returns in the air to the Mount of Olives as
the disciples saw him go up.
Conclusions: Because of these contradictions
and errors, we see the book of Mormon is not
inspired and contradicts the Bible. Moreover it
seems that the BOM used words and concepts
from a later time frame that obviously nobody
would have understood because they were not
yet in use. In general it also cites exactly the
wording of the King James Bible in English for
large segments of the BOM.
Contradictions within itself
But not only does the BOM contradict the Bible, it
even contradicts itself. According to Joseph
Smith’s story, Moroni was the last of the Nephite
priests. How is it then that Joseph Smith also
was an existing Nephite priest? The mother of
Joseph Smith ordered their genealogy traced
back 5 generations, and they were from England,
not North American natives. In Alma 37:38 (73
B.C.) it speaks of people using a compass for
navigation but this instrument was not invented
until 1100 A.D. In 1 Nephi 18:25 (589 B.C.) it
speaks of horses, burros, bulls and cows, sheep,
and pigs in America. But these animals were not
known until after the Spaniards had introduced
them around 1400s (and even then, they never
introduced elephants into North America). The
book of Ether (2200 B.C.) spoke of elephants in
America, but they are not native to America nor is
there any record that they were introduced at that
time (even today they are only found in zoos).
The BOM uses the abbreviation “etcetera” 6
times and this was invented in the 19th century. In
Jacob 7:27, the modern French word “adieu”
occurs 2000 years before it was invented. In
Jacob 3:11 and Mosiah 29:14 the word “faculty”
appears. This word is from 1000 years after when
the BOM supposedly was written. 2 Nephi 29:3
(550 B.C. even uses the word “Bible.”

 

[TimothyRBerman]

First - the Book of Mormon is not scripture as God does not contradict Himself and the BOM is one large contradiction even of itself:
Major Contradictions in Mormonism

(plus some minor ones)

Compiled by Richard Packham

Why are contradictions important?

Contradictions are a mark of falseness. If two statements contradict each other, then one of them must be false. If both statements come from the same person, then the suspicion must arise that the person is lying (or at least grossly mistaken) in one of them, or perhaps both. If both of the contradictory statements are supposed to be from God, or from God's spokesman (a prophet or a scripture) then we are justified in considering this supposed spokesman to be fraudulent, since God is not supposed to lie or to make contradictory statements.

"For I am the Lord, I change not;..." - Malachi 3:6 "God is not a man, that he should lie;.. hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" - Num 23:19
"...with [God] is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." - James 1:17 (see also BoM Morm 9:9, Mosiah 2:22, Alma 7:20)
​

Mormon leaders insist that there are no contradictions in Mormonism. Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth president of the church, said:

If his [Joseph Smith's] claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. - Doctrines of Salvation 1:188-189​

How religious apologists deal with contradictions

Contradictions do not seem to bother religious apologists, since they have developed very clever ways of dealing with them, primarily by explaining them away with various excuses:

• One of the statements only appears to contradict the other; with the proper spirit and the proper interpretation (usually by the prophet himself, or by a later prophet), and by assigning different (special) meanings to some of the words, the contradiction disappears;
• One of the statements was not intended to be taken literally (this is a variation on the previous excuse);
• The statement the apologist likes best takes precedence over the other one, because:
  • It was made earlier in time and thus has seniority;
  • It was made later in time and thus supersedes the prior one;
  • The other statement was made only to a limited, special audience at a limited time, and thus only applies to them;
• One of the statements is not accurately recorded; the prophet never really said that;
• The prophet was not speaking as a prophet when making the apparently contradictory statement - he was merely expressing his personal (and therefore human and error-prone) opinion;
• This is one of the Great Mysteries, which we will understand in God's own due time. Such mysteries can only make us pause in humility and in admiration of God's wisdom, since only He is capable of understanding them.
• As a last resort, the apologist simply ignores one of them.

Some Contradictions in Mormon Scripture, Teachings and Doctrine

This listing is by no means complete. It includes only those contradictions which are most difficult for Mormons to explain satisfactorily (except to a faithful and all-accepting fellow Mormon who desperately wants an explanation in order to protect his faith). It generally does not include contradictions with Bible passages, since Mormons consider the Bible to have many translation errors, and since the Bible itself is often ambiguous and subject to varying interpretations.

Abbreviations used:

BoM: Book of Mormon
D&C: Doctrine and Covenants
PoGP: Pearl of Great Price
BoA: Book of Abraham
LoF: Lectures on Faith (until 1921 part of D&C)
HoC: History of the Church
JoD: Journal of Discourses
TJS: Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
JST Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible ("Inspired Version")
Ensign: Ensign Magazine, official publication of the church
​

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1. What is God's attitude toward David and Solomon having more than one wife? Notice that it is not a question of whether different people at different times might be commanded or permitted or forbidden to practice polygamy; it has only to do with God's view of specific acts of polygamy. And remember that God is unchanging! (BoM, 3 Nephi 24:6)
   • BoM, Jacob 2:24 says that God considered David's and Solomon's polygamy as "abominable before me." (See also Jacob 1:15, 3:5.) BUT:
   • At D&C 132:38-39 God says that David and Solomon did not sin in having more than one wife, and David's wives were "given unto him of me." At 2 Samuel 12:7-8 God says, through the prophet Nathan, that David's wives were given to him by God.
2. Does God dwell in man's heart?
   • BoM, Alma 34:36 says that "the Lord" dwells in the hearts of the righteous. BUT:
   • D&C 130:3 says that the "idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart" is false. (D&C 130:22 says that it is the Holy Ghost that "dwell in us")
     
   
   
   [*] Does God change?
   
   • BoM Moroni 8:18, Mormon 9:9 say no:
     "...God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing." (Morm 9:9)​
   • D&C 20:17 says no:
     "...there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God..."​
     BUT:
   • Joseph Smith taught that God was once a human being like us, and became God:
     "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us..." (from the "King Follett Discourse" TJS 342-343, also JoD 6:3-4)​
   • Brigham Young confirmed this:
     "He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being." (JoD 7:333):​
   
   [*] Does God the Father have a body of flesh and bones?
   
   • D&C 130:22 says yes: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as a man's; the Son also...". BUT:
   • D&C 38:1-7 says that Jesus is invisible: "I am in your midst and ye cannot see me." BUT:
   • LoF, Lecture Fifth, says that the Godhead consists of two personages, God the Father and God the Son, "the Father being a personage of spirit...[and] the Son,... a personage of tabernacle... and is called the Son because of the flesh..." The Son possesses "the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit... and these three constitute the Godhead, and are one..." [added emphasis] Alma 18:26-28 says God is a spirit, confirming John 4:24 ("God is a Spirit").
     The Mormons try to explain this by saying that of course God is a spirit, we all are "spirit" because we have a spirit. And so does God. However, in the LoF passage, the intent is clearly to differentiate between the Father and the Son, and the difference given is that the Son is "of the flesh." Apostle Bruce R. McConkie says that John 4:24 is mistranslated (Mormon Doctrine, "God As A Spirit"), perhaps because in Joseph Smith's "Inspired Verson" of the Bible, that passage is omitted. He says nothing about the translation of the passage in Alma. One must wonder how a passage which is mistranslated in the King James Version appears in the very same words in the Book of Mormon, which was supposedly translated by divine power.
     ​
   
   [*] Is there more than one God?
   
   • BoM Alma 11:26-29 says there is only one God. Also D&C 20:19, PoGP Moses 1:6, as well as many Bible passages, such as Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 45:6, to name only a few. BUT
   • PoGP Abraham 4:27 refers to "the Gods" as does D&C 132:37. Orson Pratt's statement is typical of Mormon belief:
     If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds. - JoD 2:345​
   
   [*] Are God The Father and God The Son separate personages?
   
   • D&C 130:22, PoGP JS-Hist 1:17ff (Smith's "First Vision"), LoF 5 say yes (see previous item). BUT:
   • BoM Mosiah 15:1ff says they are the same.
     BoM Ether 3:14 God says: "Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son."
     Other passages in the first edition of the BoM (1830) said they are the same, but the text was changed in later editions to indicate otherwise, for example:
     BoM, 1830 edition:
     1 Nephi 11:21: "And the angel said unto me: Behold, the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!"
     1 Nephi 13:40: "...the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world..."​
   In present editions, the words "the Son of" have been inserted before "the Eternal Father" in these (and similar) passages.
   1 Nephi 19:11 says that the "God of Abraham" was Jesus who was "lifted up [and crucified]"
   [*] Can one who does not hold the Priesthood see the "face of God"?
   
   • D&C 84:21-22 (given September 1832) says no:
     "...without the ordinances thereof [i.e. of the priesthood], and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh; 22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live."​
     BUT:
   • In Joseph Smith's story of his "First Vision" (PoGP JS-Hist 1:17ff, written about 1838), he says that he saw two personages (one of whom he interpreted to be God the Father) in 1820. There is considerable dispute about the exact dates when the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods were restored, but the earliest dates claimed are 1829-1830.
   
   [*]Can the temple ordinances be changed?
   
   • Joseph Smith said no:
     "The order of the House of God has been and ever will be the same, even after Christ comes, and after the termination of the thousand years it will be the same;..." (TJS p 91)​
     "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed." (TJS p 308)​
     "...the ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed; otherwise their priesthood will prove a cursing instead of a blessing." (TJS p.169)​
     See also Isaiah 24:5, Malachi 3:7, condemning those who change God's ordinances
     BUT:
     The Mormon church leaders have made numerous fundamental changes in the temple ordinances:
     • about 1912 - eliminated the "Oath of Vengeance"
     • in the 1930s - softened the wording of the penalties
     • in the 1960s - changed the garment pattern to be worn in the temple
     • 1990 - removed the penalties entirely, changed the Second Sign of the Melchizedek Priesthood, removed the Five Points of Fellowship, changed the Law of Obedience for women
     • 2005 - reduced the actual washing and anointing to a symbolic daubing on the forehead
     • Hundreds of minor changes have also been made over the years.
   
   [*] Are "Elohim" and "Jehovah (Hebrew: 'YHWH')" different or the same?
   
   • In a doctrinal statement by the Mormon First Presidency "The Father and the Son" (cited by Mormon theologian James Talmage in his The Articles of Faith, pp. 465ff, it states that "Elohim" refers to God the Father, and "Jehovah" refers to God the Son. This distinction is also portrayed in the Mormon temple ritual, the "endowment," where "Elohim" gives instructions to "Jehovah and Michael" and sends them off to carry them out, which they do.
     BUT:
   • Exodus 6:2 says, translated literally from Hebrew: "And Elohim spoke to Moses, and said to him, I am YHWH [Jehovah]." The Hebrew word "Elohim" means "God" and is translated in most Bibles by "God," whereas "YHWH" - as this passage indicates, is the sacred name of God, and is translated in most English Bibles as "the LORD". In the Old Testament the terms are almost interchangeable, and frequently one version of an Old Testament story refers to the Deity as "Elohim" ("God") and another version of the same story uses the term "YHWH" ("the LORD"). There are hundreds of such examples (it was the different terms used in Hebrew for "God" that first led scholars to surmise that the first five books of the Old Testament are from differing traditions, one that called God "Elohim", and another that called him "YHWH". Here are just a few examples:
     In the Flood story, God is referred to as "Elohim" in Gen 6:9-22; 7:9, 16; 8:1, 15. But God - apparently the same God - is called "YHWH (Jehovah)" in 6:5-7; 7:1-5, 16; 8:20. In God's dealings with Abraham, God is called "Elohim" in Genesis 17, but "YHWH" in Genesis 18. It is clear that these are not two different personages, but just one God, referred to by two different terms.
     Hundreds of other examples could be cited. (See any analytical concordance under "God" and "Lord" for a complete listing.)
     ​
   
   [*] Are Adam and Michael the same personages, or different?
   
   • D&C 27:11 (and the Endowment ceremony in the Mormon temple) says they are the same. BUT:
   • In a vision which JS recorded in his diary for Jan 21, 1836, he "saw father Adam and Abraham and Michael...", naming them as separate personages. (This vision was recently included in the D&C as section 137, but the reference to Michael was deleted.)
   
   [*] Is Adam the same personage as God the Father?
   
   • Brigham Young on numerous occasions taught this doctrine, which came to be known as the "Adam-God" doctrine.
     Apostle Bruce R. McConkie admitted that this doctrine was taught by Brigham Young in a private letter: "Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him [i.e. that Adam is God]. "
     The present prophet Gordon B. Hinckley admitted that Brigham Young had taught this doctrine in an interview with the New Yorker magazine (January 21, 2002, p. 44)
     BUT:
   • Church authorities in recent decades have repeatedly said that Adam is not God the Father. McConkie, in the letter cited above, referred to the "utter absurdity of this doctrine" and called it "totally false," saying that "This [doctrine]... is not true. He [Brigham Young] expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel." See also Doctrines of Salvation 1:96-106, by Joseph Fielding Smith, later president of the church.
   
   [*] How was Jesus conceived?
   
   • BoM Alma 7:10 prophesies that Christ would be born of Mary, "...she being a virgin... who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost,..." BoM 1 Nephi 11, narrates a vision of Nephi. He sees the virgin Mary (v. 15-18), and then he "beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit;" (v. 19) and after a time he sees her "bearing a child in her arms" (v. 20)
     BUT:
   • Brigham Young's stated: "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was NOT begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family... Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.... Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (JoD 1:50-51) "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He ...was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD 8:115)
     "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husabnd... That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father." (JoD 11:268)
     Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed, 546-547)
     "He [Jesus] is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is that simple." (The Promised Messiah, pp 467-468).
   
   [*] What happens to those who teach false doctrine?
   
   • BoM 2 Ne 28:15 says teachers of false doctrine will go to hell: "...all those who preach false doctrines,.., wo, wo, wo, be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!" Joseph Fielding Smith (apostle, later president of the church) says: "There is no greater crime in all the world than to teach false doctrines.." (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:34
     BUT:
   • Apostle McConkie says that Brigham Young will go to the Celestial Kingdom, even though he taught false doctrine (see previous item): "He completed his work and has gone on to eternal exaltation..." (cited letter). When confronted with false teachings of earlier prophets, Mormons usually respond by saying that even prophets make mistakes, no one is perfect.
   
   [*] Can a revelation contradict or rescind an earlier revelation?
   
   • Joseph Smith said no: one of the tests of a false revelation is that it contradicts an earlier revelation. (TJS p 215)
     BUT:
   • Apostle Ezra Taft Benson, later president of the church, said in his 1980 sermon "Forteen Fundamentals" said:
     "Third: The Living Prophet is mor important to us than a dead prophet... Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."​
   • Many earlier revelations have been rescinded or withdrawn or otherwise contradicted by later "revelations". Examples:
     • Polygamy, the "New and Everlasting Covenant" (D&C 132) was done away with by a later revelation (D&C OD-1).
     • The United Order (or Order of Enoch) was to be "everlasting" (D&C 82:20, 104:1), but done away with by a later revelation (D&C 104).
     • Brigham Young's revelation that Adam is the God and Father is now repudiated by the church.
   
   [*] Who created the world?
   
   • PoGP Moses 2 says "I, God [created everything]..." (see also BoM 2 Nephi 2:14, Jacob 4:9, Alma 18:26-32). BUT:
   • PoGP Abraham 4 says "they (the Gods) [created everything]".
   
   [*] What happens to people who die before having had a chance to hear the gospel?
   
   • D&C 137:7-8 says they will go to the celestial kingdom. BUT:
   • D&C 76:71-78 says they will go only to the terrestrial kingdom (a lower kingdom than the celestial). BUT:
   • D&C 128 and 138 outline the Mormon "work for the dead," one of the principal purposes of the Mormon temples, to enable all the dead who repent (after death) to attain the celestial kingdom. BUT:
   • BoM Alma 34:32-35 says that those who do not repent before death are eternally lost: "...that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world... ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his,... and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked." (See also 2 Ne 9:38 and Mosiah 2:36-39)
     In spite of this clear language, Mormons have devoted much effort to "doing temple work" for thousands of unsavory historical figures such as Adolf Hitler.​
   
   [*] What happens in heaven to children who die before reaching adulthood?
   
   • Joseph Fielding Smith says that those who die as children will be resurrected with bodies "the same size as it was when the child died. It will then grow after the resurrection to conform to the size of the spirit." Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56. BUT:
   • Joseph Smith said: "But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead.... It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth,... with not one cubit added to their stature." JoD 6:10 (the "King Follett Discourse")
   
   [*] Is murder a forgivable sin?
   
   • BoM 3 Nephi 30:2, Alma 39:6 (also the Bible at Matthew 12:31, Jeremiah 33:8) say that murder is forgivable.Joseph Smith said: "All sins, and all blasphemies, and every transgression, except one, that man can be guilty of, may be forgiven; and there is a salvation for all men, either in this world or the world to come,... unless he has committed that unpardonable sin [the sin against the Holy Ghost]..." JoD 6:8 (the "King Follett Discourse")
     BUT:
   • D&C 42:18 says murder is not forgivable. Joseph Smith said: "A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness... They [can] not be baptized for the remission of sins for they [have] shed innocent blood." TJS 339
   
   [*] Where was the Garden of Eden located?
   
   • D&C 116 says it was located at "Adam-ondi-Ahman", near Spring Hill, Missouri. (See also D&C 78:15, 107:53-57, HoC 3:35). BUT:
   • PoGP (Moses 3:10-15, corresponding to Joseph Smith's "Inspired" translation of Genesis 2:10-15) says it was located in the vicinity of Assyria and Ethiopia and the Euphrates River.
     Comment: Mormons try to explain this by suggesting that those Biblical names were also used in Adam's day to refer to areas and rivers in ancient Missouri. This argument overlooks the fact that the author of Genesis (or the inspired "Book of Moses" - who was the biblical Moses, according to Mormon doctrine) was writing for an audience who knew those names only as designations in the Old World, and would have understood them as such.[/SIZE]​
   
   [*] What materials did Nephi have for building his temple?
   
   • BoM 2 Ne 5:15 says supplies were abundant: "...all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance." BUT:
   • BoM 2 Ne 5:16 says they were not abundant: "...save it [the temple] were not built of so many precious things, for they were not to be found upon the land.
   
   

This is rather interesting sense anyone who applies the actual critical thinking skills would see that you are 1) violating Copyright Ethics and Laws by plagarizing whole texts and not giving your own perspectives on this, 2) Actually quoting a gentleman who actually is not a Christian Believer but a Self-proclaimed Atheist who also denounces the Christian faith on the vary same premise and reasons he denounced the Mormon Faith and Religion:

Richard Packham on why he became an Athiest:

In my graduate studies, and afterwards, I had frequent occasion to study Christian history and thought. Nothing about it attracted me. It seemed to me to suffer from all the same problems that I had found in Mormonism. The theology made no sense. Its development seemed to be obviously similar to the origins and growth of other religions. Its morality, when studied as an ethical system, seemed very childish and immature when compared to the ethical views of the great philosophers. And, ultimately, the evidence for the historicity of its key events (the virgin birth, the incarnation, the resurrection) seemed very flimsy. I rejected Christianity for the same reason I rejected Mormonism. It seemed to be just another man-made religion. Much older than Mormonism, of course, but fundamentally flawed with similar contradictions, dubious history, and a theology built up helter-skelter out of bits and pieces of superstitious folk-wisdom and ideas from other religions.

however, I will look over his article that you posted here and will provide an objective and reasonable response to it as time allows.

 

[Boanerges]

In 2 Nephi 31:13 (and other places) the BOM uses the word
“Ghost” (phantom) for the word “Spirit”. This is an
idiosyncrasy in the English language that began
100 years after the time the BOM was
supposedly written. In 3 Nephi 9:18, they use the
terms “alpha” and “omega” (the first and last
letters of the Greek alphabet) which are Greek
words that passed without translation into the
English language. So what are these Greek
letters doing in a supposedly Egyptian
document? Moreover Greek was not a language
that was known world wide until the time of
Alexander the Great, but he hadn’t yet conquered
the world when Lehi supposedly went to America.
Why was this then unknown Greek expression
being used in this time period? In Mosiah 21:28, it
speaks of King Benjamin alive, but 15 chapters
before this he died. This was corrected by the
Mormon Church in recent editions, but how can
they still claim Joseph Smith’s vision and
translation is inspired then? In Alma 5:48 it says
“the Son of the only begotten of the Father.” If
Jesus was the only Son of God the Father, then
why does the Mormon Church teach that Satan is
Jesus’ brother (also they teach all humans and
angels are equally Jesus’ brothers)?
The Book of Mormon
against its own Doctrine
The Mormon Church has had some great
changes in doctrine after the publications of the
BOM. Below are comparisons from the BOM
(where they agree with the Bible), but in which
the Mormon Church of today denies as their
doctrine.
THERE IS ONLY 1 GOD Mosaih 15:1, 5; Alma
11:28; 2 Nephi 31:21; Alma 11:27-39, 44;
Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27, but LDS1 teaches a
plurality of gods DAC2 121:32; 132:18-20, 37.
1 LDS – The modern Church of Jesus Christ of the
Latter Day Saints
2 DAC Doctrines and Covenants, an official Mormon doctrine book
GOD IS A SPIRIT Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11, but in
DAC 130: 22 it teaches that God has a physical body.
GOD DWELLS IN THE HEART Alma 34:36, but again
DACV 130:3 says no.
GOD DOES NOT CHANGE Mormon 9:9, 19; Moroni
8:18; Alma 41:8. LDS says, God was at some time
before a normal human like any human today.
THE TRINITY Alma 11:44; Mosiah 15:5; 2 Nephi 31:21.
Today LDS says there are 3 gods.
JESUS CHRIST – Is God 2 Nephi 10:3; Mosiah 16:15;
Born of a Virgin Alma 7:10; Created everything 3 Nephi
9:15; We pray to him 3 Nephi 19:18; is called God 3
Nephi 19:18. These are all denied today by LDS.
GOD CANNOT LIE – Ether 3:12; Enoch 6; 2 Nephi
9:34; but according to the PGP3 The Book of Abraham
2:22-25, God commanded Abraham to lie.
CONDEMNATION OF POLYGAMY. Jacob 1:15; 2:23,
24, 27, 31; 3:5; Mosiah 11:2, 4; Ether 10:5,7, but DAC
132:1; 37-39, 61, absolutely commands Polygamy in
order to be saved.
ONLY CORRUPT CHURCHES PROMISE PARDON
FOR MONEY Mormon 8:32; but in DAC 64:23 says
that the members that don’t tithe will burn. Isn’t this
doing the same thing that the BOM condemns?
ETERNAL HELL - Jacob 3:11; 6:10; 2 Nephi 19:16;
28:21-23; 1 Nephi 28:22; Mosiah 16:11; 27:31; Alma
41:4-8; 42:16 but DAC 76:43; 76:70-112 teaches
universalism (all will go to heaven, some alter the rest).
THE HOLY SPIRIT will indwell man (Alma 18:35; He is
God Alma 18.28. These are denied by LDS today.
THE WORD OF GOD cannot be changed Alma 41:8;
but in DAC 56:4-5 says it can.
MAN WAS NOT PRE-EXISTENT Jacob 4:9; Alma
18:28, 34-36, but DAC 93:23, 29-33; PGP The Book of
Abraham 3:18; 3:21-23 says all men existed in God the
Father’s mansion before their birth.
THE FINALITY OF DEATH Mosiah 2:36-39; Alma
34:32-35 but DAC 76:106-112; 88:99 says there exists
another opportunity to be saved after death.
PAGANS ARE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM Moroni
8:22-23; 2 Nephi 9:25-26; Mosiah 15:24-27; but DAC
128:5, 17-18 teaches that it is necessary for salvation.
HUMAN REDEMPTION THROUGH the Lord Alma 1:4;
Christ Alma 22:13; Jesus Christ, Mormon 9:12; God
Mosiah 13:32, the Creator 2 Nephi 9:5. Today LDS
says that salvation is through Joseph Smith and the
LDS church.
3 PGP Pearl of Great Price
By David Cox
[M02] v1r ©2005 DCox: Tracts written by David R Cox
This tract can be freely reproduced for non-profit use.

 

[divine]

1. • BUT:
   • Joseph Smith taught that God was once a human being like us, and became God:
     
     "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us..." (from the "King Follett Discourse" TJS 342-343, also JoD 6:3-4)
     ​
   • Brigham Young confirmed this:
     
     "He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being." (JoD 7:333):
     ​

1. • 
     
   • 
     
     Tim,
     Isn’t it the context has hit the nail. One verse is too many to put the whole BOM in question. You don’t need any intelligence or quoting more scriptures to support further case. If God was once a man, then god bless you. You are worshipping a man. Hence, you should be examining yourself are you worshipping the right thing.
     If God was a man, this is serious matter and you cannot simply sweep it under the carpet and pretend nothing happen and life goes on.
     
     I'm not about to enter into a protracted argument with you since you are "rooted" in the BOM scriptures. Your long argument to my content was somewhat irrelavent.
     
     You suspect the bible could also be inaccurate and lack of authencity. The dead sea scroll can atest to that. If you’re into bible code, there are plenty of events has come to pass. They are all dead accurate. OK, some may still argue about bible code.
     
     My short encountered in the LDS church got me pondering about members giving testimonies. A lot of self effort going on but none mentioned about the Lord Jesus being the helper. So what is the difference between Mormons and those ordinary non-christian folks walking on the streets. Why waste time going to church since self effort can also transform your life.
     
     Due to my “accidental stumbling” into the LDS church, it got me interested to find out a little more about them. So I google and found out many exmormons grieve stories. Ain’t you are curious about their stories?
     
     
     ​

 

[Boanerges]

This is rather interesting sense anyone who applies the actual critical thinking skills would see that you are 1) violating Copyright Ethics and Laws by plagarizing whole texts and not giving your own perspectives on this, 2) Actually quoting a gentleman who actually is not a Christian Believer but a Self-proclaimed Atheist who also denounces the Christian faith on the vary same premise and reasons he denounced the Mormon Faith and Religion:

Richard Packham on why he became an Athiest:



however, I will look over his article that you posted here and will provide an objective and reasonable response to it as time allows.

You should learn to read before you accuse and criticize, that would only be the polite thing to do.
This is the last line of that material:
© 2003 Richard Packham Permission granted to reproduce for non-commercial purposes, provided text is not changed and this copyright notice is included

Also I did not quote Mr Packham for his beliefs but for his facts. What he believes is irrelevant to that list of errors he has compiled.

 

[adoptivemommy]

I think the most important fact about Mormons is that they believe Jesus was a prophet and not the Savior. Oh, they might say that's not true, but it is! Also, they take the bible way out of context when they say there is biblical proof for polygamy. There isn't any! That is one thing that did die with the old testament. That reasoning alone has caused untold grief and suffering for a lot of women and children.

Laura

 

[dstoke]

a second opinion

My questions;

1) Do they believed in Jesus Christ and He has died for their sin?
2) Why they are so sure the words from 'The Book of Mormons" are God's inspired?

I thought I would give my opinion to the original questions as a believing Mormon.

1) I think if you sincerely asked any everyday believing Mormon if they believed Jesus died for their sin then the sincere answer would be yes from every one of them. If you ask with any sense of wanting to twist their words or arguing back that somehow their faith in Christ is not valid then don't be surprised if there is some hesitancy in their response, not to say that is right, there should be no fear in professing one's belief in Christ but mormons have a certain complex from a history of being misunderstood.

2) I think the modern day experience of examining the Book of Mormon would be quite similar to the experience of first century Christians who would never had heard or interacted with Jesus and were receiving multiple letters from true and false 'apostles' of Christ, some of which have survived in the apocrypha, and yet they would have had to use their judgment to decipher truth from error.

They had a couple options...1) witness of the Holy Ghost confirming (could be Day of Pentecost type experience or Elijiah still small voice type experience). 2) "by their fruits ye shall know them" type examination seeing and observing and studying the life of Peter or Paul for example. 3) Two or three witnesses confirmation, particularly in regards to the resurrection. But I think both 2 and 3 would ultimately come back to the witness of the Holy Ghost.

Note that they could not base it on canonical comparison (no canon at that time, common person likely illiterate) or historical agreement (Jesus flatly rejected their current teaching saying they were fulfilled in him) or logic (dying on a cross, rising from the dead three days later and ascending into heaven is not logical...)

So I would say most mormons would answer the second question by describing some degree of experience with the book of mormon: reading it, studying it, research about it, research about Joseph Smith, but ultimately those who believe it will point to an experience of what they believe to be the Holy Ghost witnessing to them that it is God's word.

The Book of Mormon is definitely a radical publication and demands investigation due to the implications of its claimed genesis. The page of apparent contradictions posted by another commenter could all be countered and debated and we could go back and forth forever. Ultimately it comes back to the same basic way of obtaining knowledge from on High.

 

[divine]

The Book of Mormon is definitely a radical publication and demands investigation due to the implications of its claimed genesis. The page of apparent contradictions posted by another commenter could all be countered and debated and we could go back and forth forever. Ultimately it comes back to the same basic way of obtaining knowledge from on High.

The commenter has laid down his cards very explicitly and categorising all the discrepancies even within the BOM. If you don't see the obvious contradictions, then I would simply put you are sweeping the truth under the carpet.

 

[adoptivemommy]

I thought I would give my opinion to the original questions as a believing Mormon.

1) I think if you sincerely asked any everyday believing Mormon if they believed Jesus died for their sin then the sincere answer would be yes from every one of them. If you ask with any sense of wanting to twist their words or arguing back that somehow their faith in Christ is not valid then don't be surprised if there is some hesitancy in their response, not to say that is right, there should be no fear in professing one's belief in Christ but mormons have a certain complex from a history of being misunderstood.

2) I think the modern day experience of examining the Book of Mormon would be quite similar to the experience of first century Christians who would never had heard or interacted with Jesus and were receiving multiple letters from true and false 'apostles' of Christ, some of which have survived in the apocrypha, and yet they would have had to use their judgment to decipher truth from error.

They had a couple options...1) witness of the Holy Ghost confirming (could be Day of Pentecost type experience or Elijiah still small voice type experience). 2) "by their fruits ye shall know them" type examination seeing and observing and studying the life of Peter or Paul for example. 3) Two or three witnesses confirmation, particularly in regards to the resurrection. But I think both 2 and 3 would ultimately come back to the witness of the Holy Ghost.

Note that they could not base it on canonical comparison (no canon at that time, common person likely illiterate) or historical agreement (Jesus flatly rejected their current teaching saying they were fulfilled in him) or logic (dying on a cross, rising from the dead three days later and ascending into heaven is not logical...)

So I would say most Mormons would answer the second question by describing some degree of experience with the book of mormon: reading it, studying it, research about it, research about Joseph Smith, but ultimately those who believe it will point to an experience of what they believe to be the Holy Ghost witnessing to them that it is God's word.

The Book of Mormon is definitely a radical publication and demands investigation due to the implications of its claimed genesis. The page of apparent contradictions posted by another commenter could all be countered and debated and we could go back and forth forever. Ultimately it comes back to the same basic way of obtaining knowledge from on High.

Interesting response... You will forgive me but it smells a little of trying to justify one's self or one's belief. But, without taking forever to debate anything I believe there are 2 fundamental things here that no one can or should ignore:

1. The bible is very clear about not "adding to or taking anything out of it." So why do the Mormons need their own book? Well, in my view, so they can take the holy scriptures written by the Holy Spirit Himself through the hands of the apostles and rework them to fit their particular views and beliefs. Not a good thing!

2. The New Testament is very clear on the fact that marriage should exist between one man and one woman only and yet, somehow the Mormons have found a way to ignore that and say that God is the one who wants them to have multiple wives so that they can "multiply" their seed. Also, not good!

I'm sure that there are discrepancies as well, but these 2 are enough for me!

Laura

 

[Zathrus]

Fawn M. Brodie wrote a biography of Joseph Smith it is called "No Man Knows My History." If you are interested in the beginnings of Mormonism and the writing of the book of Mormon (yes this book was written by Joseph Smith and not copied from gold plates that he had found in an ancient Indian mound), I highly recommend this book.

Unlike some biographies that are more like a gossipy expose, Fawn Brodie's book tries to tell the facts in a fair and objective manor. When you read this book you will find that understanding the origins of Mormonism and it's book will give you a lot of understanding of modern Mormonism.

 

[divine]

Fawn M. Brodie wrote a biography of Joseph Smith it is called "No Man Knows My History." If you are interested in the beginnings of Mormonism and the writing of the book of Mormon (yes this book was written by Joseph Smith and not copied from gold plates that he had found in an ancient Indian mound), I highly recommend this book.

Unlike some biographies that are more like a gossipy expose, Fawn Brodie's book tries to tell the facts in a fair and objective manor. When you read this book you will find that understanding the origins of Mormonism and it's book will give you a lot of understanding of modern Mormonism.

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<o>
LOL. We really don’t need another book (which is written by man and not God’s inspired) to justify another book (BOM) and another book to justify the writings of Fawn M. Brodie and on and on. The discrepancies within BOM has been expounded. So more importantly, Mormons has to justify themselves these obvious contraditions. To bring in another justification without first clarifying the discrepancies is circumverting the obvious and sweeping things under the carpet (which I have said before).
</o>

 

[dstoke]

Regarding the list of contradictions or discrepancies, again we could spend hours debating each one and/or crafting a comparable document using only verses of the Bible but it would not bring light or understanding to either party, each would just feel more confirmed in their beliefs. Even if I corrected misunderstandings the reply would be that I don't understand my own beliefs. So what's the point?

Fawn Brodie...everyone is welcome to read it, I've read it and it is completely laughable in its scholarly rigor and I think most respected scholars on both sides of the debate see it that way these days. She did obviously inspire more research which led to greater understanding but her book would be a far cry from objective and scholarly. The closest thing to a neutral party writing on Mormonism is Jan Shipps.

Regarding the Bible being clear about adding to it, I would say it is far from clear...it says don't add to it in multiple places, in books that were written independently prior to canonization, with books that cite other books or letters that we no longer have, with modern day findings of additional letters and books which have broadened the understanding of first century Christianity, Ehrman's Lost Scriptures is an interesting read. Not to discount God's hand in preserving the Bible as we have it today, which I also believe in strongly, but I think the inerrant canonized Bible is a difficult position to defend.

Multiple wives is a long debate that requires lots of context. It was a major issue for me when I first started studying Mormonism but I have come to an understanding that is sufficient for me. But I would say it is interesting that Mormons are here being accused of not supporting one man-one wife definitions of marriage when they have taken it on the chin for the Christian community in the last year, which I admit is ironic when taken on face value but when you really look at the Mormon doctrine and position the logic is and has been consistent.

That's it for me. There is lots of material out there for everyone to read and study. May we all continue in our quest for understanding and enlightenment through Christ, myself included. Best.

 

[adoptivemommy]

Multiple wives is a long debate that requires lots of context. It was a major issue for me when I first started studying Mormonism but I have come to an understanding that is sufficient for me. But I would say it is interesting that Mormons are here being accused of not supporting one man-one wife definitions of marriage when they have taken it on the chin for the Christian community in the last year, which I admit is ironic when taken on face value but when you really look at the Mormon doctrine and position the logic is and has been consistent.

I'm sorry to say but reading what you're writing here... Well we can all get confused if we get so lost in debate! Don't get me wrong, I love to debate! Unfortunately you can't really debate the Word of God! There are several scriptures on marriage in the NT however I chose 3 to illustrate as plain as possible God's view on marriage!

1st Corinthians 7:2,3
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-28488">2</sup>But because of the temptation to impurity and to avoid immorality, let each [man] have his own wife and let each [woman] have her own husband. <sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-28489">3</sup>The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights (goodwill, kindness, and what is due her as his wife), and likewise the wife to her husband.


Hebrews 13:4
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-30244">4</sup>Let marriage be held in honor (esteemed worthy, precious, of great price, and especially dear) in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be undefiled (kept undishonored); for God will judge and punish the unchaste [all guilty of sexual vice] and adulterous.

I don't see how anyone can "debate" this! Marriage is between one man and one woman and anything else is adultery regardless of what spin one chooses to put on it! Not to mention the fact that, if I remember correctly, God made for Adam ONE Eve and not 3 or 4 or however many "wives" Mormon men get for themselves!

I'm curious... What would the Mormon men say if all of the sudden their women decided there are 2 sides to every coin and start marrying multiple husbands... Interesting notion, don't you think?...

Laura

 

[Zathrus]

Fawn Brodie...everyone is welcome to read it, I've read it and it is completely laughable in its scholarly rigor and I think most respected scholars on both sides of the debate see it that way these days. She did obviously inspire more research which led to greater understanding but her book would be a far cry from objective and scholarly. The closest thing to a neutral party writing on Mormonism is Jan Shipps.


Ahh, I get it. Your idea of an objective and scholarly work is anything that shows Mormonism in a positive light.

 

[Zathrus]

Wow, it looks like I killed another thread.