Very good post Mark of Faith, and I agree, suffering is very much a part of spiritual maturity and much more than scriptural knowledge. Let me quote a good friend of mine and say "spiritual growth is not more years or knowledge, but is simply less of me and more of Christ".
End times doctrines
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Very good post Mark of Faith, and I agree, suffering is very much a part of spiritual maturity and much more than scriptural knowledge. Let me quote a good friend of mine and say "spiritual growth is not more years or knowledge, but is simply less of me and more of Christ".
THe GREAT TRIBULATION is the very WRATH of our FATHER GOD!
it also is the wrath of satan!
We are not given to our Loving FATHERS WRATH!
the wrath has one purpose to punish all on earth!
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
there are scriptures to argue both ways!
But ,the way I see it? Why would GOD Pour out HIS Wrath on hIS own family!
And how could satan gain control if we have power over him?
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
When the church prayed . God sent and angel to free Peter! meaning? God would send angels to battle anti-christ!
So there are many reasons why ,i think the true church must be gone!
Mainly because we have the Power of Creation in us [Holy Ghost]
We might not know it? But there are No creatures on earth , more Power that GODS Elect!
Everything He said we can do ? WE CAN!
We are NO different , than the Church at its beginning! We just need to hear the HOLY GHOST and obey and read the scriptures asking HIM to teach us ,HE WILL!
We do not follow each other ! WE Follow only our LORD JESUS CHRIST!
it also is the wrath of satan!
We are not given to our Loving FATHERS WRATH!
the wrath has one purpose to punish all on earth!
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
there are scriptures to argue both ways!
But ,the way I see it? Why would GOD Pour out HIS Wrath on hIS own family!
And how could satan gain control if we have power over him?
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
When the church prayed . God sent and angel to free Peter! meaning? God would send angels to battle anti-christ!
So there are many reasons why ,i think the true church must be gone!
Mainly because we have the Power of Creation in us [Holy Ghost]
We might not know it? But there are No creatures on earth , more Power that GODS Elect!
Everything He said we can do ? WE CAN!
We are NO different , than the Church at its beginning! We just need to hear the HOLY GHOST and obey and read the scriptures asking HIM to teach us ,HE WILL!
We do not follow each other ! WE Follow only our LORD JESUS CHRIST!
Brother Mike
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We thuffer for Jesus. oh, boo hoo...............
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
We suffer so God gets glory????? What god are you serving??
Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Why not be troubled or shaken? Because we serve a good God and no weapon formed against us shall prosper. I'll stick with the Word and believe God is more than able to perform what He said. If you want to suffer, then according to your faith, so be it unto you.
Its not good to accuse God of doing evil to his children or not keeping his word.
Jesus Is Lord
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
We suffer so God gets glory????? What god are you serving??
Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Why not be troubled or shaken? Because we serve a good God and no weapon formed against us shall prosper. I'll stick with the Word and believe God is more than able to perform what He said. If you want to suffer, then according to your faith, so be it unto you.
Its not good to accuse God of doing evil to his children or not keeping his word.
Jesus Is Lord
Tribulation is of the world! We must expect problems in life!
The GREAT TRIBULATION is GODS WRATH!
Big different!
The last time HIS wrath came upon the world , Only 8 souls were saved ! He was dealing with them , in a flesh type way! And saved them in that type way!
Now He is dealing with Mankind in a eternal way!
We are NOT counted as part of this evil World but as Family and household being, Our natural Home is NEW JERUSALEM! NOt here
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The GREAT TRIBULATION is GODS WRATH!
Big different!
The last time HIS wrath came upon the world , Only 8 souls were saved ! He was dealing with them , in a flesh type way! And saved them in that type way!
Now He is dealing with Mankind in a eternal way!
We are NOT counted as part of this evil World but as Family and household being, Our natural Home is NEW JERUSALEM! NOt here
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Well now let me see here,
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Jesus suffered.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Jesus said that James and John were going to suffer.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Stephen suffered.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Paul suffered.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Phl 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
1Th 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Hbr 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
1Pe 4:12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Well I'm sure it's not the "blab it grab it" god or the "name it claim it" god or the "fake it till you make it" god either.:wink:
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Jesus suffered.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Jesus said that James and John were going to suffer.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Stephen suffered.
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Paul suffered.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Phl 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
1Th 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Hbr 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
1Pe 4:12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Well I'm sure it's not the "blab it grab it" god or the "name it claim it" god or the "fake it till you make it" god either.:wink:
Guess you changed your mind ey Mike?
Is it better to be a demanding self-centered spoiled brat?:shock:
Last edited:
Mark of Faith
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Yes, there are differing interpretations, hence this thread. (I started this to gain insight, not to plead a cause.)
There have been, however, some rather concerning expressions by some. I don't want to suggest that the Church does not have power over the devil. Indeed, we do, but only insomuch as is allowed by God. We do not weild the Power independently of God. Jesus didn't either, He depended wholly on the Holy Spirit.
Satan is already subservient to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, and to us.
Does that mean that we need more faith and all will be rosy? No, Jesus had infinite faith, yet suffered.
Indeed, we are warned not to use our authority over the devil independently of God. (In due course I will find the Scripture verse, I think it's in Jude.)
I agree we are not objects of God's wrath. But we are objects of His discipline, and discipline is painful. Also, Satan is "god of this world", and shall only be finally vanquished by the return of our Lord, and so he has a multitude of allies in causing the world to persecute Christians.
A "we cannot suffer" attitude in ones faith is not only unScriptural, it is flimsy in that when suffering comes, we would be tempted to think "where is my faith".
Brother Mike
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oooppsss
JIGGYFLY!!!!
ER, no. I did not change my mind. I forgot which thread this was and saw that suffering doctrine.
Those are a nice set of scriptures you have there. um..... yea I know....
Though I do believe that we should blab it and grab it. Jesus said whatever you blab shall be grabbed if you don't doubt in your heart.
Mark of Faith and Jiggyfly I am sorry and ask that you forgive me for being ignorant. I jumped the gun and was wrong!!! Scripture is scripture, and I was dumb of the subject matter.
Just don't tell me God gave you a heart attack to wittiness to someone in the Hospital or gave you cancer to bring you closer to him. Like I said, I was not paying attention to the thread.
The Lord reminded me of something that happened several years back.
I was the only Christian that was promoted to the kitchen work in a state prison. It's hard to get in that position because it pays 35.00 a month and most inmates only make 10.00 unless you have had a job for a few years. I was working unto God when everyone else complained and was asked if I would like to cook. I had only been at that prison for a week and assigned to scrub walls and was the only one scrubbing them for 8 hours a day.
In the kitchen was some White devil worshiping nazi types. (Not skin heads but Aryan nation types.) They hated me, and not being a Christian very long, I may have approached the situation a lot better. They felt I was a snitch and butt kisser because I got brought back to the kitchen when it took most of them a long time to get there. They had chased out the blacks and Hispanics. They also hated the fact I proudly professed being a Christian when they got together and did Satan worship. I was very naive to the danger I was in.
After a few weeks of working there a being threatened several times I kept telling them Satan worship was not the way to go. I told them it would lead to their destruction putting trust in the devil. Well, one of them got a hold of some bleach and pour it into my coffee in hopes it would kill me or hurt me bad enough to get out of the kitchen. I was cooking something and grabbed the cup and took a big gulp of it not stopping in time to notice the strong smell of bleach. (Don't ever drink bleach folks!!!) It burned all the way down and I could not breath. I put my hand in the air and said Lord I thank you, that in your Word you said if I drink any deadly thing it would not harm me. I also asked the Lord to forgive the person that did that. Almost immediately after saying that the intense burning stopped and I could start to breath again. I noticed some of them just watching me as I continued to do what I was doing.
Well, I tasted bleach the rest of the day but I felt fine and I prayed for everyone of those people. I told God I refused to be upset at them. The next day I went to work, all 7 of the main group was removed from the kitchen for one reason or another. Nobody knew about the bleach but me and them. They all got taken away for different infractions. I was just amazed.
Several months went by and I was eating my lunch when one of them spotted me and asked if they could sit with me. I said sure. That person sat down and started to cry, He said he saw the whole thing and saw me pray. He also said he had given his life to the Lord because of that. I was amazed once again, the guy sitting across from me use to push on me and threaten me everyday.
So, I stand corrected, and am done with this thread..
Be blessed
Jesus Is Lord.
JIGGYFLY!!!!
ER, no. I did not change my mind. I forgot which thread this was and saw that suffering doctrine.
Those are a nice set of scriptures you have there. um..... yea I know....
Though I do believe that we should blab it and grab it. Jesus said whatever you blab shall be grabbed if you don't doubt in your heart.
Mark of Faith and Jiggyfly I am sorry and ask that you forgive me for being ignorant. I jumped the gun and was wrong!!! Scripture is scripture, and I was dumb of the subject matter.
Just don't tell me God gave you a heart attack to wittiness to someone in the Hospital or gave you cancer to bring you closer to him. Like I said, I was not paying attention to the thread.
The Lord reminded me of something that happened several years back.
I was the only Christian that was promoted to the kitchen work in a state prison. It's hard to get in that position because it pays 35.00 a month and most inmates only make 10.00 unless you have had a job for a few years. I was working unto God when everyone else complained and was asked if I would like to cook. I had only been at that prison for a week and assigned to scrub walls and was the only one scrubbing them for 8 hours a day.
In the kitchen was some White devil worshiping nazi types. (Not skin heads but Aryan nation types.) They hated me, and not being a Christian very long, I may have approached the situation a lot better. They felt I was a snitch and butt kisser because I got brought back to the kitchen when it took most of them a long time to get there. They had chased out the blacks and Hispanics. They also hated the fact I proudly professed being a Christian when they got together and did Satan worship. I was very naive to the danger I was in.
After a few weeks of working there a being threatened several times I kept telling them Satan worship was not the way to go. I told them it would lead to their destruction putting trust in the devil. Well, one of them got a hold of some bleach and pour it into my coffee in hopes it would kill me or hurt me bad enough to get out of the kitchen. I was cooking something and grabbed the cup and took a big gulp of it not stopping in time to notice the strong smell of bleach. (Don't ever drink bleach folks!!!) It burned all the way down and I could not breath. I put my hand in the air and said Lord I thank you, that in your Word you said if I drink any deadly thing it would not harm me. I also asked the Lord to forgive the person that did that. Almost immediately after saying that the intense burning stopped and I could start to breath again. I noticed some of them just watching me as I continued to do what I was doing.
Well, I tasted bleach the rest of the day but I felt fine and I prayed for everyone of those people. I told God I refused to be upset at them. The next day I went to work, all 7 of the main group was removed from the kitchen for one reason or another. Nobody knew about the bleach but me and them. They all got taken away for different infractions. I was just amazed.
Several months went by and I was eating my lunch when one of them spotted me and asked if they could sit with me. I said sure. That person sat down and started to cry, He said he saw the whole thing and saw me pray. He also said he had given his life to the Lord because of that. I was amazed once again, the guy sitting across from me use to push on me and threaten me everyday.
So, I stand corrected, and am done with this thread..
Be blessed
Jesus Is Lord.
Mark of Faith
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Agreement with you Brother Mike, and goodbye from this thread again. That is a wonderful testimony, and I do agree: faith can move mountains.
I think we come to a difficult theological issue on evil and suffering. I remember the words of Neil Anderson: God doesn't make an evil thing good, but can bring good out of it.
I'm also reminded of words by the minister at my church: we, as men, trying to figure out the infinite wisdom of God is like an ant trying to figure out how to make an atomic bomb.
Some things we'll never understand.
Mark.
P.S. I don't want this thread to go off track, so can we get back to the Thread Topic. Maybe I'll start another thread on suffering and purpose. Maybe.
I think we come to a difficult theological issue on evil and suffering. I remember the words of Neil Anderson: God doesn't make an evil thing good, but can bring good out of it.
I'm also reminded of words by the minister at my church: we, as men, trying to figure out the infinite wisdom of God is like an ant trying to figure out how to make an atomic bomb.
Some things we'll never understand.
Mark.
P.S. I don't want this thread to go off track, so can we get back to the Thread Topic. Maybe I'll start another thread on suffering and purpose. Maybe.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Do you POUR out your wrath on your kids? GOD is a even much more Loving FATHER to us!
it going to be very bad watching people we love die and suffer very bad!
God would not want us to suffer like that!
But I would not mind either way! He is always correct And I trust HIS ways be RIGHT!
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Do you POUR out your wrath on your kids? GOD is a even much more Loving FATHER to us!
it going to be very bad watching people we love die and suffer very bad!
God would not want us to suffer like that!
But I would not mind either way! He is always correct And I trust HIS ways be RIGHT!
That is a great testimony Mike and just so you know I do not disbelieve in the manifested power of God as a matter of fact I have witnessed God's power of healing and miraculous signs first hand many many times.
But I also know that there is a very long history of christians who have suffered many things for the sake of the gospel and spiritual maturity including sickness and death. I must say that I am much more persuaded by these accounts through history than the teaching propigated by those in the WOF movement.
Did Jesus suffer? Was it His Father's plan?
Mark of Faith
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I must admit that having read the various posts, I am tending toward believing in a great tribulation that the saints witness.
That is not to suggest that the saints will be partakers of God's wrath. It is a great mystery how Christians can suffer, yet be blessed. Jesus Himself said that suffering was a blessed state, if we avail ourselves of God's grace to see us through.
I believe that this is what is refered to in Luke.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I believe that God will pour out His wrath on the children of disobedience, and they in turn will not look to their own problem (exceeding sinfulness) but will blame God, and take it out on His children.
(NOTE: I'm just voicing where I'm at in this discussion, I have no claim to be 100% right).
That is not to suggest that the saints will be partakers of God's wrath. It is a great mystery how Christians can suffer, yet be blessed. Jesus Himself said that suffering was a blessed state, if we avail ourselves of God's grace to see us through.
I believe that this is what is refered to in Luke.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I believe that God will pour out His wrath on the children of disobedience, and they in turn will not look to their own problem (exceeding sinfulness) but will blame God, and take it out on His children.
(NOTE: I'm just voicing where I'm at in this discussion, I have no claim to be 100% right).
