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Pagan Christianity

Coconut

Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2005
Messages
4,663
Ephesians 4:11: "And he [GOD]gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as PASTORS and teachers."

This is the only place in Scripture where the word "Pastors" is actually used. Imagine! A single verse has come to define one incredibly significant, man made office in every institutional church for 1700 years. Notice that the word used is the plural "Pastors" - NOT the singular "Pastor." Whoever these "Pastors" were, there were apparently more than one in The Church (I'm not referring to a building- but the body of Christ here).

About this, author Richard Hanson says, "For the people who first used them, the titles of these offices can have meant little more than inspectors, older men and helpers ...it was when unsuitable theological significance began to be attached to them that the distortion of the concept of Christian ministry began."

The Greek word for"Pastors" is "poimen," meaning "shepherds" ("Pastor" is Latin for shepherd). "Pastor" actually describes the FUNCTION of an individual in The Church (again, I'm not referring to a building-but the body of Christ), NOT an office or a professional title. As the word implies, Shepherds provide nurture and care for God’s sheep, loving them into maturity.

Nowhere do we find their role defined in any way similar to that which describes the Catholic priests at the time of the Reformation: preaching, administering sacraments, praying for the flock, living a godly life, handling church discipline, church rites, caring for the poor, and visiting the sick. Protestant ministers can add to that list the praying over civic and community events like luncheons and 10K runs.

I've excerpted the following from Frank Viola's book:
"Pagan Christianity: The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices."

"The modern Pastorate rivals the functional Headship of Christ in His church. It illegitimately holds the unique place of centrality and headship among God’s people. A place that is only reserved for one Person—the Lord Jesus. Jesus Christ is the only Head over a church and the final word to it. By his office, the Pastor displaces and supplants Christ’s Headship by setting himself up as the church’s human head.

"For this reason, nothing so hinders the fulfillment of God’s eternal purpose as does the modern pastoral role. Why? Because that purpose is centered on making Christ’s Headship visibly manifested in the church through the free, open, every-member functioning of the Body. As long as the pastoral office is present, you will never witness such a thing.

"It is "lonely at the top" because God never intended for anyone to be at the top—except His Son! In effect, the modern Pastor tries to shoulder the 58 NT "one another" exhortations all by himself. It is no wonder that most of them get crushed under the weight...

The modern Pastor is the most unquestioned element in modern Christianity. Yet he does not have a strand of Scripture to support his existence nor a fig leaf to cover it!

"Rather, the modern Pastor was born out of the single-bishop-rule first spawned by Ignatius and Cyprian. The bishop evolved into the local presbyter. In the Middle Ages, the presbyter grew into the Catholic priest. During the Reformation, he was transformed into the "Preacher," "the Minister," and finally "the Pastor"—the man upon whom all of Protestantism hangs. To juice it all down to one sentence: The Protestant Pastor is nothing more than a slightly reformed Catholic priest..."

Viola adds, "At best, this text [Eph 4:11] is oblique. It offers absolutely no definition or description of who Pastors are. It simply mentions them. Regrettably, we have filled this word with our own Western concept of what a Pastor is. We have read the modern idea of the modern Pastor back into the New Testament. Never in the imagination of a hallucinating man would any first-century Christian conceive of the modern pastoral office! Catholics have made the same error with the word "priest." You can find the word "priest" used in the New Testament to refer to a [all] Christian three times..."
 
Good post Coconut, very interesting and thought provoking.The kind of stuff I like:shade:
 
Just my opinon:

This was God's given form of Government of the church. If it is in the once that is good enough for
me.
This 5 fold ministry was given until the church walked in the complete fullness of the stature to which it was called and thus far we certainly have not achieved this (red emphasis mine):

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


I have heard folks condemn the "big churches because the early believers met in houses; personally I believe if they had a larger venue sans persecution they would have gladly used it for His glory.
My point is this: I do not want to get religious and condemn that which God is so actively using.
 
Just my opinon:

This was God's given form of Government of the church. If it is in the once that is good enough for
me.
This 5 fold ministry was given until the church walked in the complete fullness of the stature to which it was called and thus far we certainly have not achieved this (red emphasis mine):

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


I have heard folks condemn the "big churches because the early believers met in houses; personally I believe if they had a larger venue sans persecution they would have gladly used it for His glory.
My point is this: I do not want to get religious and condemn that which God is so actively using.

While I understand your position I also cannot deny scripture and evidence to the contrary. What is taught today concerning the "five fold ministery gifts" as being offices or positions is merely a misinterpretation based on tradition rather than scripture and Spirit. It is a carnal concept and when we honestly look at what is before us (the christian religious organization or institution and it's structure) in comparison with the scriptures we undoubtably see that it is an imitation an a very poor one at that.

When I was involved in the religious institution I witnessed time and again that pastor controlled the group, and was lord over everyone there. everyone was a servant to the pastor rather than the other way around. It is very apparent that the governing authority in place and practiced is carnal. It is not freedom but rather bondage and I myself have witnessed the fruit from this organization to be more in line with the works of the flesh than the fruits of the Spirit.

The teachings within many of the micro groups of the organization are proven to be unscriptural and deceiving, so one must ask would Jesus use lies to build His ekklesia?

This of course is just my opinion based upon my own experiences and understanding but it is also shared by many others from the start of the new covenant to present time. But when I look at the christian religious institution I do not see the kingdom of God but rather a conglameration of many, many man-made micro kingdoms.
 
It seems we have honed Christs "ministry" down to a paint-by-number art form...

CEV translates Eph 4:11 Christ chose some of us to be apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors, and teachers, so that his people would learn to serve and his body would grow strong.

Paul was all the above. All I see in this passage are various men chosen to serve, as an example to the body. I wonder if Paul had said 'Christ chose some of us to be martyrs' if we`d covet that honorary title quite as much as the rest. Christ never intended these roles to be titles or positions - Unless a house-servant considers 'sheet folder' something that she aught to wear as a name tag...

The Church Christ is building can only be governed only by the Holy Spirit ...(how can the spiritual be governed by flesh????) and the task of ministering to the needs of the body is given to those "elder(s)" the Holy Spirit chooses to watch over His flock ...


Act 20:28 [Elders vs17] Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
 
Ok, so if the pattern of leadership in most churches today is carnal, deceptive, unscriptural, and distorted by Western ideologies, what do you see as the biblical alternative and how do you envision it being applied in a western context today?

Thanks
 
Ok, so if the pattern of leadership in most churches today is carnal, deceptive, unscriptural, and distorted by Western ideologies, what do you see as the biblical alternative and how do you envision it being applied in a western context today?

Thanks

Well first I dont think it is just western ideologies that have distorted this, EO and Catholicism is the major source of this carnal concept.

The ekklesia christ is building has been present and operating in every generation since He began this work. It is not an organization it is a family and we're all brothers and sisters and not one more important than another.

One very large reason that the true ministry gifts are seldom realized by most is that one must become spitiually mature before there is a manifestation of the ministry gift through them. This is not witnessed frequently within the christian religious system because the system(being of a carnal nature) can not truely produce maturity of a spiritual nature, it can however produce maturity of a religious nature which is, again, carnal. Over the centuries and even this present time this level of spiritual maturity has been witnessed in some but it has been those who were not paticipants and proponents of the christian religious institution.

I know that for many it is very difficult to discern the two (the carnal system and the spiritual ekklesia). It was very difficult for me too but after some time seperated from the religious system things become much more clear and apparent. One major struggle with many even once they have stopped participating in the CRI is that they hang onto some of the ideologies that were instilled by the institution which combat and rebel against the leading of HolySpirit's governing authority.

I call the CRI a religious fantasy and the ekklesia a spiritual reality. The spiritual reality comes as a result of one's yielding to HolySpirit's working inside and then following His leading.

I'm sure that there are more questions and I will try my best to answer them more directly.
 
My rough and ready definition of church would be "the visible expression of the Body of Christ". I think that ties in fairly closely to your understanding of ekklesia.

My concern about separating the spiritual reality and the reality on the ground, is that it does not seem to me to be a biblical approach.

Surely any gathering of believers of any kind in any place will have a carnal element to it, because all believers are carnal in nature. We are all works in progress.

Spiritually, I am a son of God through faith in Christ Jesus. What you see of me in everyday life - at work at home and at play does not match up to this glorious reality.

Christ lives in me but it is not yet possible to see that pure spiritual reality. You can only see glimpses of God's glory shining through a fairly shabby human, carnal life.

The same is true of the Bride of Christ. She is made up of believers just like me - some a little closer in their walk with God, others a little more distant.

Peter addresses the churches in his first epistle as "a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

They still seem to be pretty carnal though. He has to remind them to "rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind".

The fundamental problem with the spiritual house that is church is not the structure, but the material – the "living stones" – with which it is built.
 
My rough and ready definition of church would be "the visible expression of the Body of Christ". I think that ties in fairly closely to your understanding of ekklesia.

My concern about separating the spiritual reality and the reality on the ground, is that it does not seem to me to be a biblical approach.

Surely any gathering of believers of any kind in any place will have a carnal element to it, because all believers are carnal in nature. We are all works in progress.

Spiritually, I am a son of God through faith in Christ Jesus. What you see of me in everyday life - at work at home and at play does not match up to this glorious reality.

Christ lives in me but it is not yet possible to see that pure spiritual reality. You can only see glimpses of God's glory shining through a fairly shabby human, carnal life.

The same is true of the Bride of Christ. She is made up of believers just like me - some a little closer in their walk with God, others a little more distant.

Peter addresses the churches in his first epistle as "a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

They still seem to be pretty carnal though. He has to remind them to "rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind".

The fundamental problem with the spiritual house that is church is not the structure, but the material – the "living stones" – with which it is built.

Well I think your confusing the the "reality on the ground" with the institution. Again the proof is in the pudding. I think you might have misunderstood me, I am not seperating the "spiritual reality from the "reality on the ground" they are one in the same. As a matter of fact that is the gist of what I am trying to say and that we can discern what is of God and what isn't by that simple truth. The many religious things done and said by man that have zero spiritual value and are not part of what Christ is doing.

As far as your last statement I am not sure I understood it properly, could you please elaborate?
 
The ekklesia christ is building has been present and operating in every generation since He began this work. It is not an organization it is a family and we're all brothers and sisters and not one more important than another.

Wonderfully said...

Did not Christ set a precedent that shows us this truth?

The 'simplicity of Christ' way that Paul spoke of, is so really so very simple ...yet so out of this world in concept and application...the carnal nature just cant grasp it, so carnal man tries to build something tangible. I`m not talking about buildings, we are going to fellowship under a roof of some sort, most of the time...its the towers of Babel religious men have attempted to turn the body of Christ into...and worse, we try to dress it up, as Adam and Eve did themselves in the garden...why? Is being clothed with Christ himself not enough? Is fellowship with Christ not enough? Did Christ command us to build temples and institutions and garb them with all sorts of form and ritual?
What utter foolishness and pride to think we can ever reach the kingdom of heaven with our bricks of religious performance.

Many will say, you should`nt speak against mens religious towers of Babel, because God uses them. I say NO, God will have the church He is building, and He will have it in spite of all our rebellion, not because of it.

Yet what is the simple truth Christ has revealed to us - One must be born of the Spirit or they cannot enter the kingdom of God. If you walk in the Spirit you will know what the perfect will of God is - and what is that, but to love God with all our hearts souls and minds and to love our neighbor as ourselves. It is exactly as jiggyfly said, we are all brothers and sisters...and we have substituted simple lives of servitude towards Father and one another for the shrine of religiosity, and climbing over one another on the ladder of 'spiritual' success to make a name for ourselves, in Gods kingdom at that! Yes that is very much Pagan, right down to the very roots of our carnal natures.

Joh 3:8 The wind blows wherever it wishes; you hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. It is like that with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Joh 3:9 "How can this be?" asked Nicodemus.
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered, "You are a great teacher in Israel, and you don't know this?
Joh 3:11 I am telling you the truth: we speak of what we know and report what we have seen, yet none of you is willing to accept our message.
Joh 3:12 You do not believe me when I tell you about the things of this world; how will you ever believe me, then, when I tell you about the things of heaven?
 
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The fundamental problem with the spiritual house that is church is not the structure, but the material – the "living stones" – with which it is built.

I am using the image from 1 Peter 2:4-5.

My view is that the problems with the institutionalised church hinted at in this post - spiritual gifts not being developed, people persisting in spiritual immaturity, leaders using their privilege for their own benefit - are not fundamentally due to the institutionalised nature of the church.

These carnal problems - and a whole host of others - arise because the church is a fellowship of carnal, sinful beings. Case in point: me.

Whenever we get together in a group, no matter how it is organised, whether it is has a formal institution, or is very loose structure, personal agendas and preferences soon come into play. No matter how leaders are chosen, they naturally emerge in a group.

With leadership responsibility, comes power, with power comes the temptation to use that power for selfish means.

I am not launching any kind of defence of religious institutions - the criticisms made here hit the mark. My point is simply that religious institutions are not carnal because of heirarchical structures; they are carnal because they are made up of people.

The spiritual ekklesia indwells the carnal church, just as the Spirit of God dwells in my carnal being.
 
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The fundamental problem with the spiritual house that is church is not the structure, but the material – the "living stones" – with which it is built.

I am using the image from 1 Peter 2:4.

My view is that the problems with the institutionalised church hinted at in this post - spiritual gifts not being developed, people persisting in spiritual immaturity, leaders using their privilege for their own benefit - are not fundamentally due to the institutionalised nature of the church.

These carnal problems - and a whole host of others - arise because the church is a fellowship of carnal, sinful beings. Case in point: me.

Whenever we get together in a group, no matter how it is organised, whether it is has a formal institution, or is very loose structure, personal agendas and preferences soon come into play. No matter how leaders are chosen, they naturally emerge in a group.

With leadership responsibility, comes power, with power comes the temptation to use that power for selfish means.

I am not launching any kind of defence of religious institutions - the criticisms made here hit the mark. My point is simply that religious institutions are not carnal because of heirarchical structures; they are carnal because they are made up of people.

The spiritual ekklesia indwells the carnal church, just as the Spirit of God dwells in my carnal being.

Very good post, but we are to strive for perfection even though we are carnal beings. And what is carnal to one person is not necessary carnal to God. Men make up sins of the flesh, and conscience. This is fact according to Paul and the scriptures.

One man eats all things, and another one doesn't. But places judgment or excommunication or sets at naught his brother, because his conscience is weak. This to me is severe carnality, as it puts us at ends with each other, and judging one another.

Paul says not to do this, who are you to judge another mans servant, for God has received him. And yes there were carnal saints in Paul's time, but he reminded them that they were carnal and should not be. As a carnal man cannot receive the things of God.

And yes i understand the O wretched man that i am thing, but Paul was a spiritual man, not a carnal one. But i see the meaning in your post. Great post, just thought id ad a bit of my thoughts


God bless
 
By Christ's offering we are spiritually perfected, we must simply renew our minds to walk in the truths He has purchased with His blood.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 
The fundamental problem with the spiritual house that is church is not the structure, but the material – the "living stones" – with which it is built.

I am using the image from 1 Peter 2:4-5.

My view is that the problems with the institutionalised church hinted at in this post - spiritual gifts not being developed, people persisting in spiritual immaturity, leaders using their privilege for their own benefit - are not fundamentally due to the institutionalised nature of the church.

These carnal problems - and a whole host of others - arise because the church is a fellowship of carnal, sinful beings. Case in point: me.

Whenever we get together in a group, no matter how it is organised, whether it is has a formal institution, or is very loose structure, personal agendas and preferences soon come into play. No matter how leaders are chosen, they naturally emerge in a group.

With leadership responsibility, comes power, with power comes the temptation to use that power for selfish means.

I am not launching any kind of defence of religious institutions - the criticisms made here hit the mark. My point is simply that religious institutions are not carnal because of heirarchical structures; they are carnal because they are made up of people.

The spiritual ekklesia indwells the carnal church, just as the Spirit of God dwells in my carnal being.

So by participating in such gatherings can this kind of organization ever mature one spiritually?
 
By Christ's offering we are spiritually perfected, we must simply renew our minds to walk in the truths He has purchased with His blood.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Amen and walking in these truths are evidence by character and mainly love.

So must one attend religious liturgical meetings inorder to accomplish this?
 
The MegaChurch

Most of the debate seems to be about how the church is either being serviced or disserviced by the mega-churches (read multi-million dollar businesses). The answer is inequivocally - "disserviced".

I once read an interview with David McCollough, a historian author of renown (recently published "John Adams"), who was asked, "What would be the Founding Fathers' biggest complaint with US politics today?" (paraphrased) His answer, paraphrased, Money. Politics today is controlled almost exclusively by the richest and those beholden to the rich.

This is the same with what I like to call the "church at large". The influence of money can't be denied when looking at the shiny castles of the Vatican or the political influence it has. The same can be said for the mega church "pastors" who drive expensive cars and live in expensive mansions and sell expensive books, CDs and other church memorabilia.

When one reads Jesus's words in Luke 18, when the rich young ruler asks what he must do to enter heaven, He says, "sell all that thou hast..." The point is not that we need to sell all that we have, but rather that Jesus knew that God was not the God in that man's life.

In Acts 2-4, the early church is shown selling and sharing their material possessions and having "all things common". This is not the church at large.

In John 2, we see Jesus overturning tables and driving out the merchandisers of the temple. This is the church at large.

The mega churches of today aren't breeding, feeding or producing new life in the word of God. They are tickling ears, making tons of money and influencing politics. Their teachings are askew, soft and devoid of any real meaning.

I would highly suggest reading James 1-2 for better words than I could I ever type.

God bless you all.
 
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