There is a lot of things that exist in the world today..but it does not make it right in the sight of God.
Condemnation of Homosexuality
- Thread starter Laudite
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Lion_of_Judah
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Your mincing words. It is not "same-sex union", it is a marriage..! Christian or not!
And how long do you suppose it will be before we hear cries for 3 persons in a marriage?
Or 4 or 5..............
You know... 1 man and 3 or 4 wives..
Oh wait, that already exists doesn't it..! and that's marriage...
Rather.. it'll be 2 men and 2 or 3 women ...and they'll be "married" ..!??
There is no stopping the train of recklessness when once the bridge has been crossed.
Marriage is 1 man and 1 woman (period)
Hekuran, could you please tell me what countries? I am in the US and they dont recognize/allow it here. I also know of polygamy recognized by some religions but that is not reconized/allowed in the US either. Meaning, if those who have those beliefs or doctrines, they wont be recognized and are nullified if you entered the US.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable [tow'ebah in Hebrew]." (Leviticus 18:22)
The NIV says that if a man lies with a man as with a woman, it is "detestable" (the KJV, the Amplified Version, and the NASB all translate the Hebrew word tow'ebah as an "abomination"). This verse describes homosexual activity, and God clearly says that He detests it. Gays argue that this verse is not a general condemnation of all homosexual activity because it does not include lesbianism. Women were held responsible for sexual sins just as men were, and that lesbianism is specifically denounced in the New Testament. It is important for us to recognize that the activity described in the passage above is "an abomination" and is "detestable" to God. Surely no professing Christian wants to do things that are detestable to God, right? Therefore, we need to make an honest effort to understand what God means in this verse so that we don't do something that God has denounced. To get a better understanding of Leviticus 18:22 (above), let's back up and look at verses 7 through 23:
The NIV says that if a man lies with a man as with a woman, it is "detestable" (the KJV, the Amplified Version, and the NASB all translate the Hebrew word tow'ebah as an "abomination"). This verse describes homosexual activity, and God clearly says that He detests it. Gays argue that this verse is not a general condemnation of all homosexual activity because it does not include lesbianism. Women were held responsible for sexual sins just as men were, and that lesbianism is specifically denounced in the New Testament. It is important for us to recognize that the activity described in the passage above is "an abomination" and is "detestable" to God. Surely no professing Christian wants to do things that are detestable to God, right? Therefore, we need to make an honest effort to understand what God means in this verse so that we don't do something that God has denounced. To get a better understanding of Leviticus 18:22 (above), let's back up and look at verses 7 through 23:
Leviticus 18:7: ""'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her."
Leviticus 18:8: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father."
Leviticus 18:9: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere."
Leviticus 18:10: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you."
Leviticus 18:11: ""'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister."
Leviticus 18:12: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative."
Leviticus 18:13: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative."
Leviticus 18:14: ""'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt."
Leviticus 18:15: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her."
Leviticus 18:16: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother."
Leviticus 18:17: ""'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness."
Leviticus 18:18: ""'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living."
Leviticus 18:19: ""'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period."
Leviticus 18:20: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her."
Leviticus 18:21: ""'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD."
Leviticus 18:22: ""'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Leviticus 18:23: ""'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion."
These verses describe sexual sins, and the majority of these commands were specifically directed to men. Therefore, we might assume that it was not a sin for women to commit similar sexual acts. But our assumption would be wrong. For example, Leviticus 20:10-21 describes the punishments for sexual sins, and notice that the women who were involved had to be punished along with the men.Leviticus 18:8: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father."
Leviticus 18:9: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere."
Leviticus 18:10: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you."
Leviticus 18:11: ""'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister."
Leviticus 18:12: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative."
Leviticus 18:13: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative."
Leviticus 18:14: ""'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt."
Leviticus 18:15: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her."
Leviticus 18:16: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother."
Leviticus 18:17: ""'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness."
Leviticus 18:18: ""'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living."
Leviticus 18:19: ""'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period."
Leviticus 18:20: ""'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her."
Leviticus 18:21: ""'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD."
Leviticus 18:22: ""'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Leviticus 18:23: ""'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion."
awesome post brother. many times we run into a situation where we want to change the truth in the word. or we try to claim that god has changed. god has not changed and his judgments on sin are the same. he is not going to call things sin at one point and then turn and say "oh man enjoys that so i will not call it a sin".
Hekuran
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iamamazed, here goes. The source is Wikipedia, so treat it with all due caution...
Legal recognition of same-sex couples
Same-sex marriage
Belgium, Canada, Netherlands, Norway, South Africa, Spain
Recognized in some regions
United States (CT, MA, CA (status in flux))
Recognized, not performed
Aruba (Dutch only), Israel, France, Netherlands Antilles (Dutch only)
United States (NY)
Civil unions and registered partnerships
Andorra, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greenland, Iceland, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Uruguay
Recognized in some regions
Argentina (C, RN, VCP), Australia (ACT, TAS, VIC), Brazil (RS), Mexico (Coah., DF), United States (CA, CT, DC, HI, ME, MD, NH, NJ, OR, VT, WA)
In the Old Testament there are two stories which contain homosexual references. The first story takes place in Sodom:
So in the passage above, the men of Sodom expressed their intentions of homosexuality and gang rape. Now notice what Jude said about these wicked people (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit):
"The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."" (Genesis 19:1-8)
In this story the men of Sodom wanted to have sex with the two male "travelers" (angels) who were staying with Lot. The men of Sodom were demanding to have homosexual sex with the two travelers, but notice that it would not have been consensual sex. It would have been a gang rape. In that culture, the rules of hospitality said that travelers who stayed with someone were under the protection of their host, which was a responsibility that was taken seriously by the host. For example, Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible says that "A man who had taken a stranger under his care and protection, was bound to defend him even at the expense of his own life" (Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible. (Genesis 19:8). Probably for this reason, Lot offered his two virgin daughters to the crowd rather than violating the protection of the travelers who were under his roof. Lot's decision might be disgusting to us, but notice that the wickedness in this story seems to be more focused on the intentions of gang rape rather than the intentions of homosexual sex (which is an argument that gays often make). For example, if the crowd had taken Lot's daughters then their actions would still have been wicked. Even so, this doesn't change the fact that the men wanted to have homosexual sex with the two "travelers," and that homosexual activity was a sin punishable by death. So in the passage above, the men of Sodom expressed their intentions of homosexuality and gang rape. Now notice what Jude said about these wicked people (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit):
"Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)
Agreement vs. Obediance
When you follow a statute ONLY because you understand it fully - that is not obedience, that is agreement.
When you follow a statute even when you do not understand it fully - that is obedience.
We are required to obey the Lord - understanding is not guaranteed (just ask Job) and agreement is not ever mentioned.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
---
First about slavery: The "slavery" of the Bible, and even of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, was primarily an institutionalized system of servitude that included all manner of rights, protections, wages, and release clauses for those "enslaved."
Having said all that, let's pretend for a moment that God was referring to the "bad" kind of slavery with all its horror and oppression when He wrote the Torah.
So what?
God DEFINES what is Good and what is Evil. So if God were to declare that such slavery is just fine and homosexuality is bad -- then that's the standard we have to work with.
We just don't get to say "Um I'm sorry God but that doesn't feel right to me. I think You are confused about what's right and wrong here." That kind of decision is WAY above our pay grade.
Further ... To argue "hey .... God condones slavery right there in text but we all think it's wrong...so um...we should be able to condone homosexuality even though He writes/thinks that it's wrong" requires a just plain puerile understanding of our place in the Universe versus His.
---
As for the "harm none, do what ye will" idea ... Do you *really* honestly think that YOU have a greater understanding of what constitutes "harm" than GOD?
Just like the ancients of the Bible did not know about the tiny worms that cause trichinosis living in their pork ... there is something mental, physical, and/or spiritual about homosexual *sex* that we still do not know.
Whatever that something is - IT IS HARMFUL.
I *will* grant you that neither person in the relationship probably wants to harm the other...but that's not the same thing.
If I give my child peanuts, not knowing (or not believing) that she has an allergy to peanuts that will KILL her very quickly, the tragic result is the same, whether I ever come to understand why or not.
If you sexually embrace another member of your gender you HARM him/her AND/OR you are harmed yourself, whether you ever come to understand why or not.
You may not feel it.
You may not see it.
You may never even understand it.
But if you do not TRUST God to know and declare what is right and best for you then the problem is not with the words on the pages of the Bible....
We are learning that despite having gotten the ability to weed out the little worms of doom in our pork, the meat is still proving to be terribly unhealthy for us in most cases. There's even research now into showing that eating pork messes with the immune system because the protein structure is oddly so similar to our own that it can cause issues just under the par for those caused by cannibalism! The more we learn, the more we discover that maybe God was right and the BEST case is to leave the piggies alone....
That doesn't mean He won't forgive us for stubbornly continuing to eat pork while we wait for our knowledge to catch up to His wisdom...but it *does* mean chances are good we're not as smart as we think we are.
What will we know about homosexuality 100 years from now?
---
I absolutely believe a man can live his life *struggling* with gay desires, and die in another man's arms during homosexual sex and STILL get into Heaven. After all, Salvation isn't about what YOU can (or can't) do -- ever. Salvation isn't about how you sin, or how often you sin, or whether or not you still sin even though you're saved.
But God really does expect you to do what you can. There's no lack of verses that pretty clearly indicate this.
You *can* choose to believe His word as written is best and true and good.
You *can* ask Him for help to apply it to your life.
You *can* continue to believe the Word is right and that you simply need to WORK out your Salvation even if you slip or fail or fall or whatever you call it when you sin even though you're supposed to be "in Christ" (and have Christ in you).
Living in the Spirit is a journey - not a light switch. Even Paul wrote that he had "bad days" where he did that which he hated. Incidentally he did NOT record just what he did that he hated so much -- because it did not matter. Paul lost a battle with sin now and then, but Christ won the war...for him...for us.
But we can't win the battle by redefining the "rules" of engagement. We don't get to casually sin. We don't get to rename wickedness as righteousness.
We can't sit in our garages and become cars either
GOD didn't say you couldn't love another person of your gender - even romantically - either.
He never says it - not once - not anywhere in all of Scripture.
But God did say don't have same-gender sex, and that sex is pretty fairly required to consummate a pairing as a "marriage."
Why isn't what GOD said simply and elegantly enough for you?
When you follow a statute ONLY because you understand it fully - that is not obedience, that is agreement.
When you follow a statute even when you do not understand it fully - that is obedience.
We are required to obey the Lord - understanding is not guaranteed (just ask Job) and agreement is not ever mentioned.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
---
First about slavery: The "slavery" of the Bible, and even of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, was primarily an institutionalized system of servitude that included all manner of rights, protections, wages, and release clauses for those "enslaved."
Having said all that, let's pretend for a moment that God was referring to the "bad" kind of slavery with all its horror and oppression when He wrote the Torah.
So what?
God DEFINES what is Good and what is Evil. So if God were to declare that such slavery is just fine and homosexuality is bad -- then that's the standard we have to work with.
We just don't get to say "Um I'm sorry God but that doesn't feel right to me. I think You are confused about what's right and wrong here." That kind of decision is WAY above our pay grade.
Further ... To argue "hey .... God condones slavery right there in text but we all think it's wrong...so um...we should be able to condone homosexuality even though He writes/thinks that it's wrong" requires a just plain puerile understanding of our place in the Universe versus His.
---
As for the "harm none, do what ye will" idea ... Do you *really* honestly think that YOU have a greater understanding of what constitutes "harm" than GOD?
Just like the ancients of the Bible did not know about the tiny worms that cause trichinosis living in their pork ... there is something mental, physical, and/or spiritual about homosexual *sex* that we still do not know.
Whatever that something is - IT IS HARMFUL.
I *will* grant you that neither person in the relationship probably wants to harm the other...but that's not the same thing.
If I give my child peanuts, not knowing (or not believing) that she has an allergy to peanuts that will KILL her very quickly, the tragic result is the same, whether I ever come to understand why or not.
If you sexually embrace another member of your gender you HARM him/her AND/OR you are harmed yourself, whether you ever come to understand why or not.
You may not feel it.
You may not see it.
You may never even understand it.
But if you do not TRUST God to know and declare what is right and best for you then the problem is not with the words on the pages of the Bible....
We are learning that despite having gotten the ability to weed out the little worms of doom in our pork, the meat is still proving to be terribly unhealthy for us in most cases. There's even research now into showing that eating pork messes with the immune system because the protein structure is oddly so similar to our own that it can cause issues just under the par for those caused by cannibalism! The more we learn, the more we discover that maybe God was right and the BEST case is to leave the piggies alone....
That doesn't mean He won't forgive us for stubbornly continuing to eat pork while we wait for our knowledge to catch up to His wisdom...but it *does* mean chances are good we're not as smart as we think we are.
What will we know about homosexuality 100 years from now?
---
I absolutely believe a man can live his life *struggling* with gay desires, and die in another man's arms during homosexual sex and STILL get into Heaven. After all, Salvation isn't about what YOU can (or can't) do -- ever. Salvation isn't about how you sin, or how often you sin, or whether or not you still sin even though you're saved.
But God really does expect you to do what you can. There's no lack of verses that pretty clearly indicate this.
You *can* choose to believe His word as written is best and true and good.
You *can* ask Him for help to apply it to your life.
You *can* continue to believe the Word is right and that you simply need to WORK out your Salvation even if you slip or fail or fall or whatever you call it when you sin even though you're supposed to be "in Christ" (and have Christ in you).
Living in the Spirit is a journey - not a light switch. Even Paul wrote that he had "bad days" where he did that which he hated. Incidentally he did NOT record just what he did that he hated so much -- because it did not matter. Paul lost a battle with sin now and then, but Christ won the war...for him...for us.
But we can't win the battle by redefining the "rules" of engagement. We don't get to casually sin. We don't get to rename wickedness as righteousness.
We can't sit in our garages and become cars either
GOD didn't say you couldn't love another person of your gender - even romantically - either.
He never says it - not once - not anywhere in all of Scripture.
But God did say don't have same-gender sex, and that sex is pretty fairly required to consummate a pairing as a "marriage."
Why isn't what GOD said simply and elegantly enough for you?
Lion_of_Judah
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I like that quote above
Well said about the journey.But as I said before:
Remember its Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve.. Genesis 2:23,24 ,the first mention of marriage.
That sets the tone for the rest of the Bible's teaching on marriage.
This is the first time that the marriage covenant is mentioned.
LoJ
The other Old Testament story which contains references to homosexuality is in Judges 19:20-24, where an old man took in some travelers:
Gays say that God certainly condemned the violence and the lust and the gang rape described in these two stories, but homosexuals argue that this has no bearing on loving, committed gay relationships. While it's true that the stories of Sodom and Gibeah have nothing to do with loving, committed gay relationships, the problem with this line of argument is that there are no examples of any loving, committed gay relationships at all anywhere in the Bible. There are no examples of homosexual marriages or same-sex unions in the Bible, and marriages throughout the New Testament are always described as having both a husband and a wife. Homosexual activity is consistently denounced throughout the Bible.
"That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the men of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?" He answered, "We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has taken me into his house. We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants--me, your maidservant, and the young man with us. We don't need anything." "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink. While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."" (Judges 19:16-24)
This story (which took place in Gibeah) describes a situation that is similar to the story of Sodom, and we see the same intentions of homosexuality and gang rape. Notice that God later used the sins of Gibeah as an analogy to illustrate how wicked Israel had become: "The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac. The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim, yet snares await him on all his paths, and hostility in the house of his God. They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins." (Hosea 9:7-9)
As Bible commentaries sometimes point out, in the above passage God was comparing Israel's wickedness with the sins described in the story of Gibeah. Here's an example: "as in the days of Gibeah --as in the day of the perpetration of the atrocity of Gibeah, narrated in Judges 19:16-22, &c."
So once again we see a story of homosexuality and gang rape being used as an illustration of "corruption" and "wickedness." Gays say that God certainly condemned the violence and the lust and the gang rape described in these two stories, but homosexuals argue that this has no bearing on loving, committed gay relationships. While it's true that the stories of Sodom and Gibeah have nothing to do with loving, committed gay relationships, the problem with this line of argument is that there are no examples of any loving, committed gay relationships at all anywhere in the Bible. There are no examples of homosexual marriages or same-sex unions in the Bible, and marriages throughout the New Testament are always described as having both a husband and a wife. Homosexual activity is consistently denounced throughout the Bible.
laudite, the hardest thing for us to do as flesh men is to turn away and give up the things that feel good to our flesh. we often want to come up with ways twisting the word and stating things in a manner that justifies what we are doing. but it is still wrong in the eyes of god.
i do not think that as men we should condemn those that are homosexuals. but i do not believe that we should hide the truth of their sins from them either. the word of god states that it is a sin and if it is not turned away from it will send them to hell.
Lion_of_Judah
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Stealing a grape at the grocery store to "taste" it.. is sin also. As the saying goes:
Love the sinner... that's our part toward them.
Hate sin... in your own life.. to the point of erraticating it from your daily walk.
Not accepting Christ's death on the cross as payment for ones' sins, is the only thing which sends anyone to hell.
Blessings,
LoJ
i agree with you. accept jesus told everyone to sin no more meaning repent. somewhere along the lines the gospel has been twisted into say that jesus is your savior and live the life you have always lead. it is alright to live in sin as long as you claim to know jesus. this is the biggest load of garbage i have ever heard.
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