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Condemnation of Homosexuality

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Some are straining at gnats to get the attention off swallowing the camel.

Defend such corruption can give others the idea that it is acceptable. Causing someone (contributing, encouraging, deceiving) to live a sinful life is a thing to be feared when one has to look Jesus in the eye. Causing one of those souls to stumble by twisting and manipulating the Word of God is best avoided.

PS:
David and Jonathan were dear friends but there was no indication of homosexuality.

It seems as the truth of God's Word is not going to be honored in this thread so I am no longer going to participate in it.
 
Raycol,
Your posts' are laced with contraditions.

wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Among these are men who have sex with men.


Jesus was referring to gay men ..without any condemnation

Do you believe Him to be the Son of God: 100% man & 100% God?

Do you believe Him to be the embodiment/incarnate Word of God in flesh?

Do you believe He came to fulfill the law?


Just wondering..

LoJ
 
While I can't speak for others, I might suggest that 'logic' as you guys put it is our only means of understanding the Word. Many people (I'm not saying you, Chad, but you'll agree it is a common viewpoint) claim that you can't 'think' about reading the bible, you just 'recieve' it's commandments. This makes no sense to me. Reading is fallible on any subject, as I am able to make mistakes in percieving meaning of words. Close, critical reading reduces errors in my reading. If I can eliminate errors in reading words, why would I not do this in reading the Word?

A lack of close, critical reading, however, seems to me to make the reader susceptible to suggestion from figures of authority. Too many churches over the years have discouraged reading (or asking questions about what you read) in regards to the Bible to entrench attitudes and authority. When we allow ourselves not to question what we read we replace God's word with the interpretations of another person. In regards to that, this man I truly respect once said something about blind men leading blind men, and it didn't turn out well for either party.

Anyhow, Chad, for me at least I'm not asking 'is God logical?' I'm asking 'am I reading this in a correct, consistent manner?'

As a final note, two things: First, Christ didn't say those two things you mention, Paul did. Second, I'm having a discussion about how to interpret those passages- I hope you might join. I'm in some real need of help with it.
 
Your neighbor is any person you come into contact with. In a sexual relations context, “your neighbor” means the person you are having sex with and any third party, e.g. the partner of that person.

If you check an English language dictionary, you'll see that there are several types of love - Parental love, Sibling love, Romantic love, and finally, Respect. This last one is the "love" Paul refers to in Romans 13:9-10.

Your post is not a logical interpretation of Scripture. It is a desperate attempt to justify your approval of the gay lifestyle.Do you want a reason as to why God disapproves the gay lifestyle? How about this one - Gays cannot procreate and God purposed sex primarily for sexual union between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. (See Gen 9:7)

SLE
 
Excellent brother Ed. In agreement with you.

Also, GOD is Holy. Therefore, GOD expects us to be Holy.

Holy according to what He says is Holy, not what we claim is "right" or wrong. Not the man made rules we set up. No, what GOD says = IS!
 
If you check an English language dictionary, you'll see that there are several types of love - Parental love, Sibling love, Romantic love, and finally, Respect. This last one is the "love" Paul refers to in Romans 13:9-10.

Your post is not a logical interpretation of Scripture. It is a desperate attempt to justify your approval of the gay lifestyle. Do you want a reason as to why God disapproves the gay lifestyle? How about this one - Gays cannot procreate and God purposed sex primarily for sexual union between a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. (See Gen 9:7)

SLE

The "love" Paul refers to in Romans 13:9-10 is the Greek word “agape”, which could be translated as “respect” as you suggested. However in the sentence before the one you quoted, I translated it as “act for the welfare of” a person. In other words, someone shows their love by doing things which benefit others and by not harming others.

In regard to your other comment, nowhere does the Bible say that God disapproves the gay lifestyle. At the most, the Old Testament prohibits men having penetrative sex with men and the New Testament criticizes (but does not prohibit) such sexual activity. Details are in my posts #54, 59 and 60. There is no Biblical disapproval of same-sex orientation or non-penetrative sex between men.
 
In regard to your other comment, nowhere does the Bible say that God disapproves the gay lifestyle. At the most, the Old Testament prohibits men having penetrative sex with men and the New Testament criticizes (but does not prohibit) such sexual activity.

That is the most absurd and most ignorant comment I have ever read in a long time. You are obviously not a genuine believer of the Bible to even have the audacity to blatantly ignore the Scripture - so much even quoted in this thread. I don't know how you figure "gay lifestyle" somehow does not include sex.

Somehow you figure this verse for example does not "prohibit" gay lifestyle. Clear, you're a mockery of your own understanding, let alone GOD's Word.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Your account is closed for deliberately going against the Word of GOD numerous times on this forum, showing no respect for what GOD says.
 
If im not mistaken, there are also three types of faith.

Hi sister, you can start a new thread on that if you'd like. Please back up any statements with Scripture.

We don't want to get off topic in this thread in the meantime.

GOD bless
 
God is Love! but there are rules to follow and they Are explicitly identified. At first i was sympathetic to the questions, now I am beginning to doubt the integrity of the author. All we can do is pray right now the that truth be seen. Pray that the Holy Spirit consume the mind and soul. I pray for that everyday. I am a sinner too, but i regret my thoughts and my actions. I pray for forgivness. You are no different than animals if you can not even attempt or acknowlege your sins or to inhibit your earthly desires for the one who died for YOU. If you truly repent for your sins, you will be forgiven, but if you ignore that, you will perish my friend. I dont want to see that happen. Ignoring the advice of your dear brothers and sisters whom you came to for love and kindness are attempting to show you scripture and debating them in the issue with unfounded arguments is only making matters worse. Follow your heart, if you are giving yourself/ your life to Jesus, the Holy Spirit will guide you. I think he already is, but I think you are battleing your desires against what you know you are being asked of. He wants us to give up what is the most important thing to us to prove we love him the most. >issac< Will you do that for him. OR AT LEAST TRY? Effort is a plus to us in the eyes of Jesus. Be an inspiration to others, not just gays, but to everyone who has an earthly anchor. Inspire them to let go. Let us all give up what we so desire for the one who made the Ultimate sacrafice. Drop our earthly goods and follow him AMEN?
 
The first two chapters of the Bible have plenty to say about human relationships:
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." ... God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day." (Genesis 1:26-28,31)

"The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." (Genesis 2:18-24)​
Here are some interesting points in the above passages:
  1. Humans were made "in the image of God, ... male and female he created them." Bible commentaries often take this to mean that men and women complement each other, and that together they reflect the image of God. Gays, on the other hand, tend to say that God is above gender, and that "in the image of God" has nothing to do with the union of male and female (in other words, we were spiritually created in the image of God, not physically).
  2. The male/female relationship was blessed by God, and this is the only union which has been blessed by God in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible has God blessed male/male or female/female unions.
  3. God said that the male/female union was "very good." No other union (male/male or female/female) has been called "good" or "very good" by God.
  4. God said to the man and woman, "Be fruitful and increase in number." Notice that only the male/female relationship can be fruitful. If the original humans had been homosexual then there would have been no procreation. Some commentaries make the argument that this is the reason why the Bible calls homosexuality "unnatural" or "against nature".
  5. God made a "suitable" mate for the man, and it was not another man. It was a woman. Notice that among all of the animals, none was a suitable mate for the man, and among the possible types of humans, only a woman was a proper mate for the man. The Bible never says that a man can be a proper mate for another man, nor does the Bible say that a woman can be a proper mate for another woman.
  6. The first woman was physically created from the bones and flesh of the first man, so there is a sense in which male and female are each incomplete without the other (in the Bible it says that a husband and wife become "one flesh" together). This does not necessarily mean that an unmarried person should get married (because the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:1-9 that Christians don't need to get married), but it means that a man cannot truly make another man complete, nor can a woman truly make another woman complete. Man wasn't created from man, nor woman from woman, so there is no "one flesh" union between two men or two women. Two homosexuals who are in love with each other might feel that they are "complete" in their relationship with each other, but this is an emotional feeling. It is not Biblical truth.
  7. After describing the first woman being created from the first man, the Bible then says, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." (Genesis 2:24, above). This gives us the reason why a man and a woman become "one flesh" when they are married (because the first woman was taken out of the first man), and this tells us that only a man and a woman can become "one flesh" together. There is no such thing in the Bible as a "one flesh" union between two men or between two women.
So from the very beginning of the Bible we see that there is only one proper type of marriage: The union of a man and a woman. Whether we like it or not, the Bible never gives approval to homosexual marriages nor to same-sex unions.
 
your answer

just love them and treat'em like normal people who have an issue. you can bring them to God without addressing that they're gay. and after they're saved perhaps the holy spirit will change them. if not than thats ok. God will Love them and judge them.
 
Gays sometimes point to Ruth and Naomi (in the book of Ruth), Daniel and Ashpenaz (Daniel chapter 1), and David and Jonathan (1 Samuel 18:1-4, 21, 20:17, 2 Samuel 1:26) as examples of homosexual couples in the Bible. However, if you read the short book of Ruth you'll find that Ruth and Naomi cared for each other as daughter-in-law and mother-in-law. There are no descriptions of homosexuality between Ruth and Naomi. If you read the first chapter of Daniel you'll see that it does not describe any homosexuality between Daniel and Ashpenaz.

Concerning Jonathan and David, consider that two men can express love towards each other, they can swear an oath to each other, they can enter into a covenant with each other, etc., without being homosexuals. There are different types of love, different types of oaths, different types of covenants, and so on. Even though the Bible says that David and Jonathan "loved" each other, this does not mean that they were homosexuals. For example, 1 Samuel 18:16 says, "But all Israel and Judah loved David, because he led them in their campaigns." Surely we shouldn't assume that all of the men in Israel and Judah were homosexuals just because they "loved" David. In the same way, we should be careful about assuming that Jonathan and David were homosexuals just because of the word "love" in 1 Samuel 18:1, 3, 20:17, and 2 Samuel 1:26. In those verses there are two Hebrew words which are used to describe the "love" that Jonathan and David felt for each other: 'ahab, which can mean "to have affection for (sexually or otherwise)," "love," "like," or "friend," according to Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, and 'ahabah, which means "love," according to Strong's Hebrew Dictionary. These two words are sometimes used in the Bible to describe the love that a husband and wife feel for each other (as in Genesis 24:67 and 29:20), but these two words are also used in other ways as well:
"Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love ['ahab], and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."" (Genesis 22:2)

"Go out to the flock and bring me two choice young goats, so I can prepare some tasty food for your father, just the way he likes ['ahab] it." (Genesis 27:9)

"But all Israel and Judah loved ['ahab] David, because he led them in their campaigns." (1 Samuel 18:16)

"Praise be to the LORD your God, who has delighted in you and placed you on the throne of Israel. Because of the Lord's eternal love ['ahabah] for Israel, he has made you king, to maintain justice and righteousness." (1 Kings 10:9)

"In return for my friendship ['ahabah] they accuse me, but I am a man of prayer. They repay me evil for good, and hatred for my friendship ['ahabah]." (Psalms 109:4-5)​
Therefore, just because the Bible says that Jonathan and David "loved" each other (using the Hebrew words 'ahab and 'ahabah, as in the above passages), this does not mean that they were homosexuals. There are no references to any homosexual activity between Jonathan and David in the Bible, so it is perfectly reasonable that they loved each other as brothers and that their relationship was forged even stronger as brothers-in-arms during war (an emotional bond which can be deeper in some ways than the love of a woman, as David says in 2 Samuel 1:26, where he specifically calls Jonathan "my brother").

Gays also tend to say that Jonathan and David were homosexuals because they "kissed" each other:
"After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. Then they kissed [nashaq in Hebrew] each other and wept together--but David wept the most." (1 Samuel 20:41)​
In order to understand what was going on here, we need to look at the context. David believed that King Saul (Jonathan's father) wanted to kill David, but Jonathan did not realize that his father wanted David dead (1 Samuel 20:1-2). Jonathan said that if his father wanted to kill David, then Jonathan would warn David and send him away safely (1 Samuel 20:12-13), and then Jonathan discovered that King Saul did want to kill David. We have seen that Jonathan and David loved each other as brothers, and now they had to leave each other (perhaps forever) because David's life was in danger. They "kissed" each other (1 Samuel 20:41) and confirmed their oath of friendship, and then David left. That is the context for the above passage. Notice that when David and Jonathan "kissed" each other, the Hebrew word for "kiss" in this passage is nashaq. This Hebrew word is also used when other men "kissed" each other in non-homosexual ways, such as when Jacob kissed his father Isaac (Genesis 27:26-27), when Laban kissed his nephew Jacob (Genesis 29:13), when Esau kissed his brother Jacob (Genesis 33:4), when Samuel kissed Saul (1 Samuel 10:1), when the king kissed Barzillai (2 Samuel 19:39), when Joab kissed Amasa (2 Samuel 20:9), and so on. So even though Jonathan and David "kissed" each other (just as those other men "kissed" each other), this does not mean that Jonathan and David were homosexuals. In some cultures (especially in the Middle East) it is not uncommon for men to kiss on both cheeks when greeting each other or when departing from each other, as we can see occasionally in the news. For example, a CNN news article about the Middle East said that "Iranian President Mohammad Khatami kissed Prince Abdullah on both cheeks in a traditional greeting". Jonathan and David lived in the Middle East, and they were departing from each other (perhaps forever), so it is perfectly reasonable that they would kiss on both cheeks. There is no Scriptural proof of any homosexual activity between Jonathan and David.

Gays also sometimes say that Jonathan "disrobed" in front of David:
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt [or "girdle" in some translations]. Whatever Saul sent him to do, David did it so successfully that Saul gave him a high rank in the army. This pleased all the people, and Saul's officers as well." (1 Samuel 18:3-5)​
Notice that this passage does not say that Jonathan removed all of his clothes, and notice that there is no indication of any sexual activity here. This passage simply says that Jonathan was giving some of his possessions to David. Sometimes gays acknowledge this fact, but they say that not only was Jonathan disrobing in front of David, he was also "turning the symbols of his manhood over to David." However, this is reading a particular interpretation into this passage which ignores the culture that Jonathan and David were living in. For example, here's what a Bible commentary says about this passage:
"3. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant --Such covenants of brotherhood are frequent in the East. They are ratified by certain ceremonies, and in presence of witnesses, that the persons covenanting will be sworn brothers for life.
4. Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David --To receive any part of the dress which had been worn by a sovereign, or his eldest son and heir, is deemed, in the East, the highest honor which can be conferred on a subject. The girdle, being connected with the sword and the bow, may be considered as being part of the military dress, and great value is attached to it in the East." (So 1 Samuel 18:3-5 (above) describes a covenant of brotherhood between Jonathan and David, and it describes Jonathan conferring a high honor on David. None of this is homosexual in nature.

Another argument that gays sometimes make is that Jonathan had "chosen" David as his "marriage partner":​
"Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die." (1 Samuel 20:30-31, KJV)​
The homosexual argument is that the "nakedness" in the above passage is a reference to sexual relations, and that therefore the context implies that Jonathan had "chosen" David in a sexual way (in other words, that Jonathan wanted a homosexual marriage with David). Furthermore (according to this argument), King Saul was angry at this because Jonathan could not be established as king unless he had a female spouse who could produce heirs for him. But there are several problems with this argument. For one thing, notice whose "nakedness" is being described in the above passage. The expression "thy mother's nakedness" refers to Jonathan's mother. There are no sexual relations between Jonathan and David being implied here, and there are no sexual relations involving Jonathan's mother being implied here. This passage has nothing to do with sex or marriage, whether homosexual or otherwise. The context of this passage describes King Saul's hatred for David, and Saul's desire to kill David. Jonathan and David loved each other as brothers, and they had sworn a covenant of brotherhood to each other. In the passage above, King Saul was angry at his son Jonathan for taking David's side against Saul, not because of any homosexuality between Jonathan and David. For example, here is how the NIV translates this passage:
"Saul's anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don't I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send and bring him to me, for he must die!"" (1 Samuel 20:30-31)​
Summary: When we understand the context of the above passages and we understand the culture in which Jonathan and David lived, it is easy to see that these passages do not describe any homosexuality between Jonathan and David.
 
If men were intended to have sex with eachother ...

why can't they make babies?

why did God create woman?

I am NOT saying that someone who has had sex with the same gender can't turn away and be saved, but the only man they should love is Jesus.
 
If men were intended to have sex with eachother ...

why can't they make babies?

why did God create woman?

I am NOT saying that someone who has had sex with the same gender can't turn away and be saved, but the only man they should love is Jesus.

:thumbs_up I agree! very good questions!

In the New Testament, Jesus confirmed that the only valid "one flesh" union is between a man and a woman:
"[Jesus is speaking] "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' [Genesis 1:27] and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? [Genesis 2:24] So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."" (Matthew 19:4-6)​
Notice that Jesus quoted from two different parts of the Creation account (Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24), and therefore Jesus gave divine authority and divine approval to the literal interpretation of Creation. Jesus pointed out that the first two humans were created "male and female," and He said that for this reason a man will be united to his wife, and they will become "one flesh." In other words, there is a reason why a man and a woman will get married and become "one flesh." The reason is because the original woman was taken out of the original man, as we saw earlier. Then Jesus said that they are no longer two people, they are one, and that they have been joined together by God. Jesus described all of this in specific reference to a man and a woman, and neither Jesus nor the human authors of the New Testament (writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) ever applied this principle to homosexual unions. Two men cannot become "one flesh" together, and two women cannot become "one flesh" together. Whether we like it or not, we're seeing that the Bible never gives approval to homosexual marriages nor to same-sex unions.
 
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Brother, I have posted specific scripture about homosexuality. Interpretation of the specific scripture I have quoted in the past requires no interpretation. It is frank and literal. I am not assuming anything, I stated a fact. You have yet to acknowledge homosexual behavior a sin, i assumed that was not repented. Integrity of the authors question.... after this wealth of information from concerned brothers and sisters, you attempt to debate a sin against slavery. A debate requires a winner. This is not a debate my friend. This is peoples salvation we are talking about. This not a competetion. I am sorry you felt attacked, but that was not the intent nor in retrospect was it intended. I in no way called anyone names or accused anyone of anything. Now when I said YOU ( I meant all of us). We (all) would be no different than the animals if we dont attempt to stop sinning. I began that sentence with "I am a sinner too" I too am tempted to sin, (sins) are all clearly listed in the Bible). I have decisions to make and converstions with my conscience. I ask the Holy Spirit for answers. Animals dont have that ability. But in my context I talk about ALL earthly anchors that are negative and would require thought and conscience to recognize as a sin. I began the sentence with I am a sinner too. God is the only Superior one amen. If we refuse to acknowledge our sins, we cant repent and we wont be saved. Yes brother the focus is on you, everyone is researching scripture for you. Sending you the Word to bring you towards salvation. Maybe my words may have been cold and to the point, but it is ONLY out of fear for your salvation. Hmm what would Jesus do now?
 
homosexual marriages..???


Just a word of caution to everyone on the forum here at TJ.


There is NO such thing as homosexual marriage! This has been shoved down the publics throat
for some time now, and the world would like us to fall into this arguement, because it sides
with the homosexual aspect when it's called marriage.


For all recorded history.. marriage has been between 1 man and 1 woman.


Homo-anything marriage ..has never existed. Don't be tricked into believing the lie.


LoJ
 
Just a word of caution to everyone on the forum here at TJ.


There is NO such thing as homosexual marriage! This has been shoved down the publics throat
for some time now, and the world would like us to fall into this arguement, because it sides
with the homosexual aspect when it's called marriage.


For all recorded history.. marriage has been between 1 man and 1 woman.


Homo-anything marriage ..has never existed. Don't be tricked into believing the lie.


LoJ

I hope you read my post and understood that I do not agree with homosexual relationships.
 
There is NO such thing as homosexual marriage

You may be right in saying that a same-sex union can never be a Christian marriage.

But same-sex marriage does exist. It is legally recognised in the Netherlands, Canada, South Africa and a few other countries.
 
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