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In the Name of Tolerance and Love.

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Skandranon

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Oct 28, 2008
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Hello everyone.

I am an Atheist, and a come to everyone here as an Atheist. I've not come here to start a debate or argument, and I'm not here to convert anyone over to my cause. The real reason I'm here is to help plant the seed of friendship.

Over the years, Atheists have been treated with mistrust and anger, and I believe that almost all of this comes from misunderstanding. So, let's start with something small and simple...call this an Atheist Q&A.

Go ahead and ask me any question on anything you can think of. I'll answer any question at all be it about myself, Atheism, Atheists, my viewpoints, evolution, science, and anything else you can imagine.

I will not tolerate intolerance. (Irony!) That is my only rule.
 
Hello Skandranon, I have a question for you. What led or drew you to your atheistic beliefs, was it an experience, some kind of information or something else?
 
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Hello Skandranon, I have a question for you. What led or drew you to your atheistic beliefs, was it an experience, some kind of information or something else?

Well, it all really began with the way I was brought up. Both my parents are "casual Catholics" to coin a phrase, and they are both very intelligent people (my dad can make a computer do backflips for him, and my mom is one of the higher-ups in a real-estate company). When I was growing up, at about the age of 7, my parents began talking to me about Christianity, religion, and life. I went to Sunday school, and I was given a bible in public school (looking back, I'm somewhat upset about this), which I read for a little while.

The thing is, they didn't just teach me about Christianity, I was taught that there were people that didn't believe in anything at all, and that there were people that believed in other gods like in the Hercules movie.

It wasn't until I was about 13 or 14 years old that I began seriously thinking about faith and religion. For me, science offered a much more rich and satisfying universe to explore than faith, as science was so open-ended and always asked "why". I was never happy with having an answer and having someone simply tell me that was correct.

In short, I put almost all of my energy into the pursuit of knowledge, and that road led me to Atheism.

Chad, I checked out a few of those links and read up on some of the prophecies. I won't answer each directly, but I will address some of the questions in the "Dear Atheist" thread.

of billions of stars and planets in the many galaxies, only earth has life, and abundance of it?
The amount of actual planets we are actually able to observe is incredibly small compared to the amount of planets that are actually out there.

There is a picture of a spot in the sky where no points of light were detectable by the human eye. By allowing the Hubble Space Telescope to observe this one spot for a couple weeks, a few hundred new galaxies appeared each galaxy contains an innumerable amount of stars. This should give you an idea of the amount of stars out there. The chance that there are absolutely none like earth is astronomical.

the sun is 400 times the size of the earth's moon, 400 times further away from earth than the moon, yet they look both proportionally the same size in our sky?
Diameter of sun = 1.39 × 109 m
Diameter of moon = 3.476 × 106 m
Ratio: 399.8849:1

Distance from earth to sun = 1.496×1011 m
Distance from earth to moon = 3.844 x108 m
Ratio: 389.1779

So, the "400x" calculations are almost correct...some of the time. The thing is, the Earth is not always the same distance away from the sun, and the same thing goes for the moon. This is because almost all celestial bodies that have satellites orbiting around them orbit in an elliptical pattern (think egg). The fact that they are both appear similar due to an effect called proportionate observation.

I don't, however, believe this is evidence of a creator, not only due to the triviality and inaccuracy of the measurements, but also because chance and coincidence allow for something like that to happen. If God really wanted to let people know that he existed, I think he would do it somewhat less subtly.
the sun lights the days nicely, while the moon glimmers in the night sweetly and the clouds bring forth rain to water our crops, which bring forth food in your stomach?
I think you're confusing cause and effect. If the sun did not shine, we would not exist, or we would exist in a different manner.

If the moon never existed, would we really care? Sometimes, there is no moonlight, or it is obscured by clouds. This doesn't really prove anything to me.

If we didn't get water from the rain for our crops, we would get it elsewhere. If we couldn't get it elsewhere, we would get our food from elsewhere. Sometimes we don't get rain, and sometimes we don't get food, as evidenced from drought and worldwide starvation.

your body heals naturally when you cut yourself, or you become sick and it goes away?
Everything from the human immune system to blood clotting to the way our skin heals is all a part of evolution. If we hadn't evolved those systems, we would not have survived as readily as we have. Ways to recover from injuries are all over in the natural world.
humans have intangible senses, called emotions where we feel love, hate, anger, sadness, happiness, shock, confused, hurt, healed, and so forth?
These things are all (in my opinion, and that of many scientists) products of chemicals in your brain and body that produce a certain effect in the sensory organs as well as your overall consciousness. This is again, not proof of God.

the complexity of dna is so mind boggling, that scientists worldwide now have gone from 'no god' to claiming a "Divine Creator"?
True, some scientists have converted to christianity, however, most scientists appear to be keyed towards Atheism.

As for DNA, this can be explained by some effect which I cannot remember the name of. It shows how incredibly complex designs and patterns can emerge from a single non-random process (natural selection).

your body's anatomy is complex, so fine and so articulate that you wonder how this "accident" came to be?
Not a single person in biology will say that we are an accident. In fact, the only "random" process that drives evolution is genetic mutation. This, however, is not the main thing in evolution. It is natural selection, which is very much a non-random process. To say we are an accident is scientifically incorrect.

Plus, even if we were, it has no bearing on whether or not there is a God.

you have eyes so you can see, ears so you can hear, heart so you can feel, mind so you can think?
If we could not hear, would we care? If we could not see, would we care? All of these things are necessary to a human today, but if we had evolved (or even had been created) without such things, our existence would still be possible, just in a slightly different way.

there are thousands of recovered artifacts proving the validity of Scripture, the Holy Bible itself?
Ah, the dead sea scrolls. Those are, basically, really old bibles. They also prove nothing. Just because a text is really old does not mean the text is true.
those who have faith in Jesus Christ witness miracles, worldwide?
I ask you, "How do you know Jesus performed miracles?"
You say, "Because it says so in the bible."

I ask you, "how do know the bible is accurate?"
You say, "Because it is the inerrant word of God."

I ask you, "How do you know it is the inerrant word of God?"
You say, "Because it says so in the bible."

almost all Old Testament prophecies have been already fulfilled and more continue being fulfilled? (read)
Again, the bible says that there was a prophecy, and the bible says that the prophecy was fulfilled. We are again led back to the question: How do you know the bible is accurate?


Every other question that I didn't answer can be filed under the same heading: So what?

Just because there are many things in this world that seem beautiful to us does not mean there is a creator. There are many things in the world that seem disgusting, repulsive, and dangerous. Does that mean there is no creator?
 
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Well, it all really began with the way I was brought up. Both my parents are "casual Catholics" to coin a phrase, and they are both very intelligent people (my dad can make a computer do backflips for him, and my mom is one of the higher-ups in a real-estate company). When I was growing up, at about the age of 7, my parents began talking to me about Christianity, religion, and life. I went to Sunday school, and I was given a bible in public school (looking back, I'm somewhat upset about this), which I read for a little while.

The thing is, they didn't just teach me about Christianity, I was taught that there were people that didn't believe in anything at all, and that there were people that believed in other gods like in the Hercules movie.

It wasn't until I was about 13 or 14 years old that I began seriously thinking about faith and religion. For me, science offered a much more rich and satisfying universe to explore than faith, as science was so open-ended and always asked "why". I was never happy with having an answer and having someone simply tell me that was correct.

In short, I put almost all of my energy into the pursuit of knowledge, and that road led me to Atheism.

Chad, I checked out a few of those links and read up on some of the prophecies. I won't answer each directly, but I will address some of the questions in the "Dear Atheist" thread.

The amount of actual planets we are actually able to observe is incredibly small compared to the amount of planets that are actually out there.

There is a picture of a spot in the sky where no points of light were detectable by the human eye. By allowing the Hubble Space Telescope to observe this one spot for a couple weeks, a few hundred new galaxies appeared each galaxy contains an innumerable amount of stars. This should give you an idea of the amount of stars out there. The chance that there are absolutely none like earth is astronomical.

Diameter of sun = 1.39 × 109 m
Diameter of moon = 3.476 × 106 m
Ratio: 399.8849:1

Distance from earth to sun = 1.496×1011 m
Distance from earth to moon = 3.844 x108 m
Ratio: 389.1779

So, the "400x" calculations are almost correct...some of the time. The thing is, the Earth is not always the same distance away from the sun, and the same thing goes for the moon. This is because almost all celestial bodies that have satellites orbiting around them orbit in an elliptical pattern (think egg). The fact that they are both appear similar due to an effect called proportionate observation.

I don't, however, believe this is evidence of a creator, not only due to the triviality and inaccuracy of the measurements, but also because chance and coincidence allow for something like that to happen. If God really wanted to let people know that he existed, I think he would do it somewhat less subtly.
I think you're confusing cause and effect. If the sun did not shine, we would not exist, or we would exist in a different manner.

If the moon never existed, would we really care? Sometimes, there is no moonlight, or it is obscured by clouds. This doesn't really prove anything to me.

If we didn't get water from the rain for our crops, we would get it elsewhere. If we couldn't get it elsewhere, we would get our food from elsewhere. Sometimes we don't get rain, and sometimes we don't get food, as evidenced from drought and worldwide starvation.

Everything from the human immune system to blood clotting to the way our skin heals is all a part of evolution. If we hadn't evolved those systems, we would not have survived as readily as we have. Ways to recover from injuries are all over in the natural world.
These things are all (in my opinion, and that of many scientists) products of chemicals in your brain and body that produce a certain effect in the sensory organs as well as your overall consciousness. This is again, not proof of God.

True, some scientists have converted to christianity, however, most scientists appear to be keyed towards Atheism.

As for DNA, this can be explained by some effect which I cannot remember the name of. It shows how incredibly complex designs and patterns can emerge from a single non-random process (natural selection).

Not a single person in biology will say that we are an accident. In fact, the only "random" process that drives evolution is genetic mutation. This, however, is not the main thing in evolution. It is natural selection, which is very much a non-random process. To say we are an accident is scientifically incorrect.

Plus, even if we were, it has no bearing on whether or not there is a God.

If we could not hear, would we care? If we could not see, would we care? All of these things are necessary to a human today, but if we had evolved (or even had been created) without such things, our existence would still be possible, just in a slightly different way.

Ah, the dead sea scrolls. Those are, basically, really old bibles. They also prove nothing. Just because a text is really old does not mean the text is true.
I ask you, "How do you know Jesus performed miracles?"
You say, "Because it says so in the bible."

I ask you, "how do know the bible is accurate?"
You say, "Because it is the inerrant word of God."

I ask you, "How do you know it is the inerrant word of God?"
You say, "Because it says so in the bible."

Again, the bible says that there was a prophecy, and the bible says that the prophecy was fulfilled. We are again led back to the question: How do you know the bible is accurate?


Every other question that I didn't answer can be filed under the same heading: So what?

Just because there are many things in this world that seem beautiful to us does not mean there is a creator. There are many things in the world that seem disgusting, repulsive, and dangerous. Does that mean there is no creator?


Thanks for your response. I'd like to point out a few things:

- you say "so what". That's your view. It does not dictate truth.
- you say that some scientists are still atheists. Again, they do not dictate truth.
- you say how do you know the Bible is accurate. I say, I gave you two links, one forum showing you enormous amount of evidence on the Bible's accuracies. You did not spend time reading them to grasp the proof. You did however, spend time quoting my dear atheist thread refuting each point, or almost all of them anyway.
- you claim that this or that is based off natural selection or evolution. I'm asking you, how do you know? Do you have proof?

I would like to ask you to dispute, with proof any of the threads posted in the evidence and prophecy forum. The prophecies fulfilled, you cannot even touch. They've been fulfilled. The miracles we believers have witnessed, again you cannot even dispute. The artifacts (thousands, literally) found proving the divinity and accuracy of the Holy Bible cannot be disputed, even if you tried.

You claim this about dna

As for DNA, this can be explained by some effect which I cannot remember the name of. It shows how incredibly complex designs and patterns can emerge from a single non-random process (natural selection).
Surely you would remember the effect if you're going to declare this is based off natural selection and automatically dispute a Creator, GOD.

Can you prove natural selection? Can you prove GOD does not exist? If you can, that means you must have absolute knowledge of the entire world, universe and everything within from point A to point B. But, you do not. However, as believers we have enormous amount of proof proving that GOD is real, Jesus is the Divine Son of GOD. I explained what these proofs are. Its up to each person to be wise to gain the knowledge about these things.

If you spend more time with believers to hear their testimony about the miracles GOD has performed in their lives, you would understand and be inclined more towards the Truth found in Jesus Christ alone. You cannot dispute any of the testimonies, miracles we have witnessed in our lives.

Visit the testimony forum and read some inspiring stories.
 
I'm sorry, I'm not here to start a debate, and please stop trying to convert me. I'm here on a mission of peace, not as a missionary. I know your doctrine tells you to convert as many people as you can, but in this case I must respectfully decline.

I'm here to answer any questions that anyone may have about Atheism, Atheists, my viewpoints, evolution, and science, like I detailed in my first post.

Let me repeat, I am NOT here to debate or convert anyone. I will also stop responding to anyone trying to debate or convert me.
 
I'm sorry, I'm not here to start a debate, and please stop trying to convert me. I'm here on a mission of peace, not as a missionary. I know your doctrine tells you to convert as many people as you can, but in this case I must respectfully decline.

I'm here to answer any questions that anyone may have about Atheism, Atheists, my viewpoints, evolution, and science, like I detailed in my first post.

Let me repeat, I am NOT here to debate or convert anyone. I will also stop responding to anyone trying to debate or convert me.

No problem. You made up your mind. I'm sorry you feel that way. I gave you plenty of links that may help you, but clearly you refused them.

However, this is a Christian forum. We're here because we love Jesus, and some come here to learn about Jesus.
 
Either way, let's get back to the topic at hand!

Here's a question to get everyone thinking about what they may have heard or believe:

What has your pastor, priest, or other spiritual leader told you about Atheists? If you haven't asked, this Sunday is a good time to. I'd love to know what you think. =)
 
Either way, let's get back to the topic at hand!

Here's a question to get everyone thinking about what they may have heard or believe:

What has your pastor, priest, or other spiritual leader told you about Atheists? If you haven't asked, this Sunday is a good time to. I'd love to know what you think. =)

Interesting you ask that question. Reason I find it interesting is because you're not concerned about GOD and what He has to say, but you want to know the opinions of pastors on atheists. Christian pastors, of a belief that you clearly confessed you do not care about to be converted to. You also have no problem believing other atheists who fed you lies about evolution and natural creation. But you quickly made clear you did not want to be converted and ignored all those links I gave you, that had rich information on who GOD is and the validity of the Holy Bible. Even testimony of an ex-atheist too.

What do you think of that? I'm interested and curious what you have to say about this.
 
Hello,

I would enjoy reading how you, as an Atheist, would answer the following questions.

Why is man valuable?
What is man's purpose?
How do you define what is right or wrong?
How are you able to verify what you know? In other words, with science's limited abilities and man's limited faculties, how can you really know what you think you know is correct?

thanks
 
Greetings Skandranon,

How are you? Let me know if you are not well, and I shall pray for you, in Jesus name.

Before we go any further though can I remind you of something?
If you look at the top right hand of this page you will read something. Please do so and remember that Talk Jesus is just as it says. Thank you.

Now, you mention the topic at hand.... well, to begin with, you say that atheists have been treated with mistrust and anger, over the years. Who by?

I think that Christians could cry that cry, too, don't you? 400 million being persecuted right now as we exchange niceties and demand tolerance, can vouch for that, but you will find, instead, they don't, but rather , glory in Christ Jesus the Lord and count it all joy. Why ?

Are you aware that Christianity, not churchianity, if you know what I mean by that, suffers more intolerance than any, perhaps all other groups put together, by more united fronts than is humanly possible to stand against? Go to the middle east, for example... who is the common enemy of both Jew and Muslim.... go on... guess.... athiests? No, Christians. Again, why? Perhaps you would prefer the borders of Bangledesh or Tibet? Same thing.... again, why ? And please don't say because of religion.... because what you define as religion is about peoples beliefs... yes? Such is Atheism.. .another religion.

You said to ask, so I am.

My main question though .... what is love?

Where does it come from?

I look forward to your point of view and the atheist point of view, of love, in love.

Bless you ....><>


Br. Bear


ps... please be a bit more careful if you wish to use the Talk Jesus forums in the way you call the shots and make rules. We do have rules here, for obvious reasons like keeping some sort of order rather than chaos, and we don't really need any more, thank you.
I will not tolerate intolerance. (Irony!) That is my only rule.


and pps... don't forget to tell me if you are in anyway not well, so I can pray for you, in Jesus name ><>
 
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Interesting you ask that question. Reason I find it interesting is because you're not concerned about GOD and what He has to say, but you want to know the opinions of pastors on atheists. Christian pastors, of a belief that you clearly confessed you do not care about to be converted to. You also have no problem believing other atheists who fed you lies about evolution and natural creation. But you quickly made clear you did not want to be converted and ignored all those links I gave you, that had rich information on who GOD is and the validity of the Holy Bible. Even testimony of an ex-atheist too.

What do you think of that? I'm interested and curious what you have to say about this.

Well, I've read a good deal of the bible, as I like to know the other side of the fence as well as I possibly can, and I know what the bible says about Atheists. I want to know what people actually think. Do most Christians take the bible very seriously and think about Atheists as it dictates, or have they formed their own opinions on what Atheists are? That's what I'm truly interested in.

Frankly, I find the way you are speaking to me right now very aggressive. Maybe it's just the way you write, but I'd rather not feel like I'm being interrogated. I intend for this to mimic a casual conversation between two friends.

Hello,

I would enjoy reading how you, as an Atheist, would answer the following questions.

Why is man valuable?
What is man's purpose?
How do you define what is right or wrong?
How are you able to verify what you know? In other words, with science's limited abilities and man's limited faculties, how can you really know what you think you know is correct?

thanks

Why is man valuable?
Well, I believe that mankind as a whole is valuable, because I am one! I've seen what things make a society work and what things do not. Hatred and other such "negative" emotions tend to lead to chaos, suffering, and general unpleasantness for all. Altruistic societies tend to function much more effectively than their counterpart.

I like to live by the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have be done unto you.

What is man's purpose?
Well, I believe in something called existentialism. I believe that there is no grand purpose or meaning to life. In fact, I believe in nothing like destiny, prophecy, and fate. My live does have meaning, however, because I define what I want my life to be. I want to be a scientist, a teacher, a husband, a friend, among many other things.

My ultimate goal in life is to please myself, as I believe is the ultimate goal in everyone's life. Some people get pleasure from worshiping God, some from the murder of others, and some from the everyday things in life. Personally, I gain pleasure from setting goals for myself, such as the last sentence in the previous paragraph, I enjoy helping other people and being generally altruistic.

I'll stop myself there, because I'm sure I could go on for an eternity about things that I like. You get the picture anyways. =)

How do you define what is right or wrong?
I believe right and wrong is defined for each person individually. This can be a combination of lineage, culture, upbringing, and many other factors that are both due to the environment and due to genetics. To say that there is a clear line between right and wrong would be extremely arrogant of anyone, because it's clear that not everyone shares the same viewpoints.

Personally, I define what is right and wrong by the golden rule. Would I like to be stabbed in the chest with a screwdriver? Probably not, so I would define that as wrong. Would I like to be lied to, cheated on, etc.? No, so I tend to avoid doing those things to other people.

How are you able to verify what you know? In other words, with science's limited abilities and man's limited faculties, how can you really know what you think you know is correct?
Well, I can't. In the most purest form, you can never know if something is 100% true, because there is always the uncertainty that your perception may be tainted by one force or another. So, in the search of a pure, ultimate truth, we must begin with something. That something may end up being biased, but in the end everyone needs a reference point. For many people it is faith, God and the bible, and for many other people it is science, logic, and the scientific process.
 
Greetings Skandranon,

How are you? Let me know if you are not well, and I shall pray for you, in Jesus name.

Before we go any further though can I remind you of something?
If you look at the top right hand of this page you will read something. Please do so and remember that Talk Jesus is just as it says. Thank you.

Now, you mention the topic at hand.... well, to begin with, you say that atheists have been treated with mistrust and anger, over the years. Who by?

I think that Christians could cry that cry, too, don't you? 400 million being persecuted right now as we exchange niceties and demand tolerance, can vouch for that, but you will find, instead, they don't, but rather , glory in Christ Jesus the Lord and count it all joy. Why ?

Are you aware that Christianity, not churchianity, if you know what I mean by that, suffers more intolerance than any, perhaps all other groups put together, by more united fronts than is humanly possible to stand against? Go to the middle east, for example... who is the common enemy of both Jew and Muslim.... go on... guess.... athiests? No, Christians. Again, why? Perhaps you would prefer the borders of Bangledesh or Tibet? Same thing.... again, why ? And please don't say because of religion.... because what you define as religion is about peoples beliefs... yes? Such is Atheism.. .another religion.

You said to ask, so I am.

My main question though .... what is love?

Where does it come from?

I look forward to your point of view and the atheist point of view, of love, in love.

Bless you ....><>


Br. Bear


ps... please be a bit more careful if you wish to use the Talk Jesus forums in the way you call the shots and make rules. We do have rules here, for obvious reasons like keeping some sort of order rather than chaos, and we don't really need any more, thank you.
I will not tolerate intolerance. (Irony!) That is my only rule.


and pps... don't forget to tell me if you are in anyway not well, so I can pray for you, in Jesus name ><>

I apologize, religious discussion tends to lead to argument and debate, and I've had quite enough of that over the years.

As for your first question, I am doing very well. =) I just aced my Calculus midterm, I'm head-over-heels for my girlfriend (and she is the same for me), and I have many friends that I am proud to say that I would die for.

Second, a quick Google search will reveal that Atheists are the #1 most mistrusted group in America! I've seen videos of such intolerance. (Look up "Angry Catholic Mother" on YouTube). And I've seen it directly in the bible. I'm not claiming that Atheists are the only group that are being oppressed/mistrusted/etc, but they are one of them. And to lessen the suffering of just one more group of people would fill me with a great sense of pride and accomplishment.

What is love?
Baby don't hurt me...don't hurt me...no more...

*ahem* Sorry.

Seriously though, Love is something that would take years, even a lifetime to explain and experience. Love is a very personal experience, and love can come in many forms. Love for a friend, fellow man, brother, deity, parent, or partner are all very different things and constitute very different things.

For me, the most important love in my life now is that of my partner. For me, love is not something that you define, but you describe. I describe it as the emotion that allows me to say with full confidence that I cherish this person more than anything. I would lay down my life for her without a second thought, and I would forgive her regardless of how she may transgress. She is the one person I would spend the rest of my life and eternity with. I wish to experience the world with her, from the most exotic locations, to the most precious moments between us. That is love for me.

To answer your final question, I am still fine. Though I don't require or believe in it, I thank you for the sentiment. I should hope that your prayers, if you should pray for me, are said not in pity, but in respect and admiration as peers.
 
I like to live by the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have be done unto you.

I think i know this word some where ? ahh yeah its in the BIBLE !


You must have been reading your Bible a lot Skandranon, If you don't remember where to find it here it is.


Matthew 7:12
12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


And then if you flip the first page of your bible you will find ,


Genesis 1:1
1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
 
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Heh, though it may be in the bible, it's a much older concept than that. In fact, I'd have to say it's one of the most basic unwritten moral laws that is common to almost every successful civilization.
 
Hello

Skandaron,
I have read all that you have written and all i can tell you is that you are in the right place if you wan't to continue with your questions. However, don't expect not to hear about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is a forum for serious Christians and those who seek Jesus Christ. That's what you believe in, good for you. I and many others, however, believe that Jesus is Christ and is our Lord and Saviour. We are not here to convince you about Christ, it is not our work - it is the work of the Holy Spirit of God to change lives. It is my prayer now that the Holy Spirit of God will touch you and reveal Himself to you.
Proverbs 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words, and treasure my commands within you, so that you incline your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding. Yes, if you cry out for discernment, and lift up your voice for understanding, if you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures; then you will understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

As i said, our Lord God does not need us to fight for Him or try to convince others of His existence. He is the existence. and am sorry but as long as your in this forum your going to hear about Jesus Christ and His goodness and greatness. Please don't expect anything less than that. Jesus right now, please touch Skandranon, by your Spirit Lord reach out and show yourself strong. In Jesus Name.


 
Heh, though it may be in the bible, it's a much older concept than that. In fact, I'd have to say it's one of the most basic unwritten moral laws that is common to almost every successful civilization.

hah, could it be the bible is much older than the crazy scientific findings you are talking about then.

and could it be the bible is the source of every thing

it's a much older concept than that.

by the way the word of God is not just a concept "it gives life" inviting you to try it
 
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Greetings again,

just quickly, what is a successful civilization?

Can't see I have seen too many... maybe the ants?

Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear
 
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