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Pastoral dictators

flaja

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
12
I became a Christian while attending a YMCA day camp when I was 4 years old, but I was not raised in a Christian home. I had little opportunity to ever attend church services while growing up (the only bus ministry that came through my neighborhood had a founding pastor that was a child molester). As an adult I have not been able to find a church that is sound in doctrine and practice and which shows a genuine concern for social welfare work, which I consider necessary for any church to be legitimate.

My uncle died unexpectedly in 2005 I inherited a fair amount of cash. I wanted to put the money towards building a non-profit college prep Christian school. However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.

Since 2006 I have been looking for a pastoral position that would enable me to use my inheritance to promote the Gospel. I am King James only (of a sort), so I have been interested mostly in IFB and BBF churches. I’ve always had concerns about the independent polity of these churches and the tendency of their pastors to act like dictators, but I was willing to overlook this for the sake of having a King James only congregation.

But recently I have participated in several internet message boards that are meant for KJVO/Baptists. I have had little but hostility from these boards. I have even been told that I cannot be saved because I graduated from public schools (rather than “Christian” school or homeschool) and I have a bachelor’s degree in biology from an accredited private college.

The hostility of the IFBs has only heightened my concern over the independent nature of their congregations. I’d like to get some input on several matters.

1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)? Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?
 
Greetings flaja,

excuse my ignorance, but who and or what are IFB and BBF ?

I was also wondering if you have the answers to your questions already and just wanted to see if people here agree? No offence meant, just wondering.

You say you are interested in building a non-profit college prep Christian school.

I suppose this might be the best place to start to answer your question:
Who gave you the idea?
Your post seems to indicate that you are seeking a group of professing Christians, who abide by the Scriptures, in order to fulfil your plans, but are your plans in line with Scripture?

Will the seed you want to grow produce seed after it's kind, and will it retain the heritage of Christ Jesus the Lord, or is it yet another of man's hairbrained schemes to further the Kingdom of their own dreams? Please do not be offended at this question, but understand it is a serious question that only you can answer in prayer and counsel.
I know I have had few ideas that have come to nought, because they were my 'bright' ideas... not the Lord's.

I know I haven't addressed the questions you asked, but I think before we go further on this, you ought go back to your own plans and seek the Scriptural process to do such things. I am not aware of any reference in Scripture, to someone like yourself deciding to do such a thing, and then shopping around for a sponsor.

Your idea is noble and even wholesome by mans standards, but the Lord requires us to seek Him in all things, not just how to work out our plans, however good they may seem.

I pray this helps.... to begin with.

Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear
 
Greetings flaja,

excuse my ignorance, but who and or what are IFB and BBF ?

Independent Fundamental Baptist and Baptist Bible Fellowship, neither of which count themselves as a denomination.

I was also wondering if you have the answers to your questions already and just wanted to see if people here agree? No offence meant, just wondering.

On the surface I would say that an episcopal polity is what the Bible calls for. This means you have to have some form of apostolic succession, i.e., the earthbound church is to submit to the authority of the Apostles and each Apostle had to pass his authority on to his successor. But I don’t believe that any of the churches that claim apostolic succession today are following legitimate biblical doctrine on other matters (Roman Catholic, Anglican and Eastern Orthodox). So I guess my ultimate question is how can modern churches be organized in accordance with the NT? Who or what do we have in place of the Apostles?

You say you are interested in building a non-profit college prep Christian school.

I suppose this might be the best place to start to answer your question:
Who gave you the idea?
Your post seems to indicate that you are seeking a group of professing Christians, who abide by the Scriptures, in order to fulfil your plans, but are your plans in line with Scripture?

I became interested in education reform while I was in college and I have been working on a reform plan for over 20 years now. I doubt that I would have put so much time and effort into planning a school, if God weren’t backing me up.

I have served as a classroom teacher at several local Christian schools and I have yet to meet a single student who could read at the grade level appropriate for their age. And I once had 7th graders that couldn't do long division (a 4th grade public school skill in Florida). Private schools are not regulated in Florida and this lack of regulation sorely shows in the state’s “Christian” schools. We need a school system that can train Christians to enter academic fields where they are currently under-represented (mainly science and social studies).

Will the seed you want to grow produce seed after it's kind, and will it retain the heritage of Christ Jesus the Lord, or is it yet another of man's hairbrained schemes to further the Kingdom of their own dreams? Please do not be offended at this question, but understand it is a serious question that only you can answer in prayer and counsel.

Since you don’t know me from Adam, who are you to judge my efforts? Without knowing anything about you or your beliefs, I could easily conclude that you have been sent by Satan to serve as a stumbling block that will keep me from doing the work that God wants me to do. How can you lecture me on being right with God when I have no way of knowing that you are right with God yourself?
 
Well, bless you flaja,

methinks you might have got offended, even though I specifically asked that you don't.

Education requires self control... ie, being an educator.

I am sorry you see me as judging you, flaja. I was merely suggesting you might choose to consider my point.

You suggest that God is backing you. Bold statement, that one, and one that so many who have come under your judgement have said. Does God know He is meant to back us up on things we decide to do? As far as I knew, we were meant to humble ourselves before the Almighty God, and love one another for His sake. It is only His grace and mercy we can be sure of, and getting His approval is not in our plans, but in believing that He has a plan, called His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ the Lord.

Bless you flava, you seem to have mistaken my words and considered them as judging you. All I was suggesting was that you keep your viewpoints balanced and see if your plans are in line with Scripture as you seem fit to suggest other people are not. By doing this, perhaps you might see better where to look for your answers... in Scripture, beginning with yourself. After all, your plans are between you and the Lord are they not? So, why bother yourself about other people and what they believe? If the Lord is behind you and backing you all the way, can He not also bring it to pass without much effort from either of us? As far as I understood the Scriptures, His plans work out just fine, perfect in fact... and His Word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes that which it went out to do.

Again, no offence, but rather, blessings, flaja, I thought you might understand my words about seeds.

Thanks for the info about IFB and BBF. I'm still ignorant... sorry.

Happy birthday for the 19th, by the way.

Bless you ....><>

Br. Bear





Seek ye the LORD while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

Isaiah 55:6-13
 
My uncle died unexpectedly in 2005 I inherited a fair amount of cash. I wanted to put the money towards building a non-profit college prep Christian school. However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.
Bear with me, I am trying to understand.
Where you going top just cover materials?
If not, what part(s) exactly where you going to pay for with this money, if neither the land or the labor?

Since 2006 I have been looking for a pastoral position that would enable me to use my inheritance to promote the Gospel. I am King James only (of a sort), so I have been interested mostly in IFB and BBF churches. I’ve always had concerns about the independent polity of these churches and the tendency of their pastors to act like dictators, but I was willing to overlook this for the sake of having a King James only congregation.

But recently I have participated in several internet message boards that are meant for KJVO/Baptists. I have had little but hostility from these boards. I have even been told that I cannot be saved because I graduated from public schools (rather than “Christian” school or homeschool) and I have a bachelor’s degree in biology from an accredited private college.

The hostility of the IFBs has only heightened my concern over the independent nature of their congregations. I’d like to get some input on several matters.

KJV isn't the original version so what makes it more accurate?

My interpritation is that God is saying 1 of the following:
broaden your search as to location,
broaden your search as to denominations,
broaden your search to non-denominational,
or this is not God's timing/way/etc.

Only you & God can decide which of these or other.
 
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1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)? Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?

1. Depends. If he has final say, no; If he has only say, yes.

2. no but should look there 1st

3. not sure. I do know though that the pastor needs to more in love with God than his ministry.

4. some churches, especially Baptist & Episcaple submit to higher earthly authority, but with all the denominations & seperate churches even in the denominations, it would be almost impossible to have authority heads over each.
 
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