I have few questions.....

[Richie]

Dear friends,

No doubt, God is merciful. He loves all of us and He cares for us. But when I read this portion of the scripture, some questions crept into my mind:

Romans 9:13-18:

Verse 13:In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”

Verse 14:What can we say? Was God being unfair? Of course not!

Verse 15:For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”

Verse 16:So receiving God’s promise is not up to us. We can’t get it by choosing it or working hard for it. God will show mercy to anyone he chooses.

Verse 17:For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you, and so that my fame might spread throughout the earth.”

Verse 18:So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen.

God is surely fair, and He is truly merciful and He loves us all, but what I don't understand is, "Why does He reject certain people in advance?" for example Pharaoh and Esau.

This is something, I can't understand, can somebody please understand this?

 

[Chad]

Article: gotquestions.org

Malachi 1:2-3 declares, “’I have loved you,’” says the LORD. But you ask, 'How have you loved us?' ‘Was not Esau Jacob's brother?’ the LORD says. ‘Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.’” Malachi 1:2-3 is quoted and alluded to in Romans 9:10-13, “Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.’” Why did God love Jacob and hate Esau? If God is love (1 John 4:8), how could He hate anyone?

When studying the Bible, it is critically important to always study the context of a particular Bible verse or passage. In these instances, the Prophet Malachi and the Apostle Paul are using the name “Esau” to refer to the Edomites, who were the descendants of Esau. Isaac and Rebekah had two sons, Esau and Jacob. God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed Israel) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites. God rejected Esau (who was also called Edom), and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people. Esau’s and his descendants, the Edomites, were in many ways blessed by God (Genesis 33:9; Genesis chapter 36).

So, considering the context, God loving Jacob and hating Esau has nothing to do with the human emotions of love and hate. It has everything to do with God choosing one man and his descendants and rejecting another man and his descendants. God choose Abraham out of all the men in the world. The Bible very well could say, “Abraham I loved, and every other man I hated.” God choose Abraham’s son Isaac instead of Abraham’s son Ishmael. The Bible very well could say, “Isaac I loved, and Ishmael I hated.” Romans chapter 9 makes it abundantly clear that loving Jacob and hating Esau was entirely related to which of them God chose. Hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau had died, the Israelites and Edomites became bitter enemies. The Edomites often aided Israel’s enemies in attacks on Israel. Esau’s descendants brought God’s curse upon themselves. Genesis 27:29 tells us, “May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may the sons of your mother bow down to you. May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed.”

 

[ImmanuelWithUs]

Of course I agree fully with everything Chad posted.

The BIG point is that none of us are worthy of His beautiful grace, mercy, and love, so that He would share it with any of us is absolutely baffling to me! Isin't it amazing that He'd give even one of us sinful human beings His wonderful love and mercy?! Just like the Bible says, the clay shouldn't question the Potter. We are His creations; His creatures. And He can do with us as He wishes. He is never unfair and He is never unloving. He's never not perfect.

We can trust Him completely to make the just and right decision all the time, without fail. Obviously the one He chooses to hate would have never loved Him, no matter how many times that person heard the gospel because the Lord wants everyone to come to repentance...but not everyone wants God.

This all has to do with predestination. I'd recommend going to Mars Hill Church's website (which is a church in Seattle, Washington) and dowloading some of Pastor Mark Driscoll's sermons on the subject. Also Pastor John Piper's ministry has plenty of free downloadable sermons on predestination (which is aptly titled TULIP). And, of course, TalkJesus' forums have tons of info on it, as well.

Predestination (from GotQuestions)

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God chose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23) and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen because they are receiving what they deserve.

God choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God – therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be my handing out money to 5 people in a crowd of 20. Would the 15 people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because I did not owe anyone any money. I simply decided to be gracious to some.

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the freewill choice – all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who was seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand in hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!”

I'm so blessed to be one He shows His love and mercy to.

 

[rlowe]

God knows even before we are conceived our heart & mind set
+ our actions.

God knew that Esau would put his temporary hunger above his inheritance which included not only temporal/earthly but eternal/spiritual.

Thus He chose/loved Jacob over Esau, for Jacob saught-after & prized the inheritance which included not only temporal/earthly but eternal/spiritual.

 

[natty threads]

Yep yep yep.

We get mislead by biblical language.

When God "hates" Esau (as when we "hate" our family and love Jesus) it means He chooses against Esau in favor of another. It's an unfortunate translation for us modern folk, using the word hate.

Another easily confused word is perfected.
Perfect refers to something being complete, not necessarily the best it can be or the best but simply complete.

Pharoah was a priest, wasn't he?
I thought Egypt had priest-kings.
As such, he worshiped gods other than YHWH and had full knowledge of what he was getting into, imo.

I don't know if He was punishing Pharoah directly, but He certainly punished Egypt's false gods through Pharoah.

Bless up!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: I have a few questions

God is surely fair, and He is truly merciful and He loves us all, but what I don't understand is, "Why does He reject certain people in advance?" for example Pharaoh and Esau.

Richie: For the answer to your question, you need to study Romans 8:28-9:33. Basically, the answer is that God does not arbitrarily reject people in advance. His decisions stem from his foreknowledge of the choices they will make in the matters involved. However, his decision to reject them does not interfere with their exercise of free will because for him to do so would be a violation of his perfect nature.

SLE

 

[sojourn4Christ]

the only man "hated" by God -- why?

God is surely fair, and He is truly merciful and He loves us all, but what I don't understand is, "Why does He reject certain people in advance?" for example Pharaoh and Esau.

This is something, I can't understand, can somebody please understand this?

Why did God "hate" Esau?

There is a relatively recent theological development known as Remnant Theology. The somewhat nebulous term means different things to different people. Sometimes called Remnant Christianity, the intrinsic meaning is that which remains -- implying some larger portion has been removed, destroyed, or neutralized -- is the true body of saved believers. We apply the term to the phrase The Remnant Of Israel -- a scriptural term that is seen in the Old Testament. When Christ came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, he announced that Israel (physical Israel) must be born again.

As Christ reconfigured the basic construct of Israel when He confirmed the covenant (Daniel 9:27) with Israel, those that were born again continued as spiritual Israel, and those that refused stayed in their tombs as physical Israel. Thus, the Catholic engineered theology known as "replacement" is an inaccurate label as Israel has not been replaced, Israel has been born again. Thus, the "church" has not replaced Israel. Indeed, the dispensational system that posits two groups, the church and Israel as separate groups that are both in the LORD's favor, is also in significant error. The Remnant of Israel are those that were formerly Jewish and formerly Gentile that have been grafted in to the single saved entity known as Israel. Thus, there is no place for a "Jewish remnant" i.e. the usual cult derived idea of the 144,000 as the Christians are themselves the remnant (Romans 11:5) and the Jewish and Gentile populations are lost.

While some have sought to attach the rapturist originated fraud of two saved groups (Jesus said there is one flock in John 10) to the term remnant, dispensationalism (the "rapture" camp) and remnant theology are mutually exclusive. Widely misunderstood (and routinely misrepresented) by those in the rapture camp, a distinctive feature of Remnant Theology is its embrace of futurism -- the doctrine that states the tribulation and the Antichrist are about to emerge. This sharply differs with those Amillennialist perspectives (Wesleyan, etc) and Post-Millennial systems (Catholic, Dominionist, et al) that see one saved group, but spiritualize the prophecies and neutralize the imminent fulfillment of all things in the process. Remnant is also sometimes mistaken for Seventh Day Adventism or Christian Identity -- both thoroughly false doctrinal systems.

This is the central issue in the New Testament. Apart from the identity of Jesus Christ, the identity of the believer is of primary importance.

The fact that God has appointed the believers to become the Risen Sons of God (1 John 3:2) is an honor of the first magnitude. As "believers" continue to forfeit their birthright, and profess that they are NOT the chosen people, they commit the sin of Esau.

The Bible tells us that "Esau have I hated" (Rom 9:13), yet few stop to realize that the LORD hated Esau because he relinquished his birthright. Incredibly, the culprit, apostate "Christianity" teaches their hapless followers to follow in the sin of Esau and forfeit their grace-given birthright to the Jewish people who despise the true God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Even though many don't really care, and blindly think what they believe doesn't matter, the true disciples of Jesus want the whole truth.

 

[rhomphaia]

the Love

The Amplified bible helped me understand this verse.

What God seems to be saying is this..

..." i love jacob so much that if my love for jacob was to be compared to the love i have for Esau, my love for Esau would seem like hate...."

Thats how i understand it.

 

[sojourn4Christ]

depart from iniquity

God is surely fair, and He is truly merciful and He loves us all, but what I don't understand is, "Why does He reject certain people in advance?" for example Pharaoh and Esau.

This is something, I can't understand, can somebody please understand this?

... The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

2 Timothy 2:19-21

 

[majestyking]

if u undastand the issue about grace, u will get it.GOD puts levels of grace on individuals, thats it

 

[Boanerges]

Dear friends,

No doubt, God is merciful. He loves all of us and He cares for us. But when I read this portion of the scripture, some questions crept into my mind:

Romans 9:13-18:

Verse 13:In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”

Verse 14:What can we say? Was God being unfair? Of course not!

Verse 15:For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”

Verse 16:So receiving God’s promise is not up to us. We can’t get it by choosing it or working hard for it. God will show mercy to anyone he chooses.

Verse 17:For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you, and so that my fame might spread throughout the earth.”

Verse 18:So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen.

God is surely fair, and He is truly merciful and He loves us all, but what I don't understand is, "Why does He reject certain people in advance?" for example Pharaoh and Esau.

This is something, I can't understand, can somebody please understand this?

Lots of good answers here. God predestines according to foreknowledge (Rom 8:29). He knows who we will be and what we will choose as yesterday, today and tomorrow are the same to Him.

 

[HeIsMyFather]

This is an interesting and enlightening discussion! Thank you all for the OP and the responses.

 

[rojoloco]

If God is love (1 John 4:8), how could He hate anyone?

I have actually heard this excuse from a lot of people (I know you are just quoting a website here) but they fail to realize something very important. God is love. It is an attribute of Him. However, just because He is love does not mean He is incapable of hating. God hates sin for sure. In fact, in a recent thread I started, I showed many Scriptural examples of Him hating sinners (those who will never believe). God hates as a result of sin. If sin never existed, His hatred would not exist but His love would remain for He is love. His love is an eternal attribute while His hatred is just a reactionary trait.

 

[rojoloco]

Richie: For the answer to your question, you need to study Romans 8:28-9:33. Basically, the answer is that God does not arbitrarily reject people in advance. His decisions stem from his foreknowledge of the choices they will make in the matters involved. However, his decision to reject them does not interfere with their exercise of free will because for him to do so would be a violation of his perfect nature.

I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with this post and if you look, you will find there is zero Biblical backing for it. To claim that it is solely based on the foreknowledge of God means He is sitting on the sidelines and is just watching us do our thing. It means we save ourselves while God just takes us in after we do all the work. It also means Scripture is a lie. Try reconciling what you just said with this verse:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father

Unsaved individuals will never choose God. They have no desire to do so. Unbelievers do the desires of Satan. They don't fight it. They do it willingly. It is not Satan's desire for one to turn to Christ because a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The ONLY way for one to "choose" God is by God changing their nature (2 Corinthians 5:17) so that they are given a new Father. Once God becomes their Father, they will now desire Him but before this, there is no chance. If it were based solely on the foreknowledge of what God knew we would choose, nobody would be saved as everybody would gladly be lost doing the desires of Satan. As it stands, it IS of the foreknowledge of God in the fact that God knew exactly who He had chosen and given to the Son before the foundation of the world (John 6:37).

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: I Have a Few Questions.......

To claim that it is solely based on the foreknowledge of God means He is sitting on the sidelines and is just watching us do our thing.[

Maybe you need to reread my post and look at it more carefully. You jumped on my mention of God's foreknowledge but ignored my reference to His foreknowledge of what their decisions would be.

As it stands, it IS of the foreknowledge of God in the fact that God knew exactly who He had chosen and given to the Son before the foundation of the world (John 6:37).

What was the basis of God's decision as to whom to chose if it wasn't His foreknowledge of what they would freely choose?

SLE

 

[RJ]

These verses from God do appear to be some very strong statements and agreeably hard for us to understand.
These Romans verses, specifically 9:6-24, so explained to me, is a picture of God's Sovereignty. In other words if God choose to do something a ceratin way or not to do it, who are we to say right or wrong, He is Sovereign.
Like Paul said (paraphrasing): " We now see in a mirror dimly. But some day we shall see face to face and know fully, as well as we are known." Paul is refering to our day of perfection in the presence of God. Until that time we will never fully understand God's Sovereignty.

There is something else in play at the same time. I can't specifically point to a particular verse that supports this directly but, I feel that it is a fundemental truth from God and is laid down throughout scripture and, has a direct relationship between Him and man. It cause Adam to be expelled from the Garden of Eden, It caused Pharoah to resist Moses and it has caused the Jewish elect to rebell against God time and time again throughout history and; I feel that it is somehow tied into predestination: and that is the free will choice of man. We choose and we get a certain result; with out it, we would just be puppets!

 

[RJ]

These verses from God do appear to be some very strong statements and agreeably hard for us to understand.
These Romans verses, specifically 9:6-24, so explained to me, is a picture of God's Sovereignty. In other words if God choose to do something a ceratin way or not to do it, who are we to say right or wrong, He is Sovereign.
Like Paul said (paraphrasing): " We now see in a mirror dimly. But some day we shall see face to face and know fully, as well as we are known." Paul is refering to our day of perfection in the presence of God. Until that time we will never fully understand God's Sovereignty.

There is something else in play at the same time. I can't specifically point to a particular verse that supports this directly but, I feel that it is a fundemental truth from God and is laid down throughout scripture and, has a direct relationship between Him and man. It cause Adam to be expelled from the Garden of Eden, It caused Pharoah to resist Moses and it has caused the Jewish elect to rebell against God time and time again throughout history and; I feel that it is somehow tied into predestination: and that is the free will choice of man. We choose and we get a certain result; with out it, we would just be puppets!

One more thing to chew on. Since God gives us the power to reason, an imagination an the ability to ponder, I will say this about predestination vs. Choice:
God is spirit and resides everywhere, including the other realm. In this other realm there is no up or down and there is no time as we know it. God is the Apha and the Omega; He is not one then the other, He is both at the same time. God can be a the begining and the end at the same time. Jesus Christ has already been to the end and knows all the names in the throng of believers and has written them down in the Lamb's Book of Life...all based on God's basic law of choice.