Does *anyone* really *have* to fall?

[Janette]

Three preachers of note in the United States are John Hagee, Jesse Duplantis, and Jerry Saville.

Now anyone who has listened to these three men, know that these three men have some very different views. But they all have one thing in common (besides names that start with J hehe).

Each of these men tell stories of how they were unsaved and *unwilling* to be saved...but that others in their lives prayed for them and they became saved despite themselves.

John Hagee tells of how, as a young man, he *hated* church and didn't want anything to do with his parents' ministry. He says that the "turning point" in his life was sneaking into his home late at night to find his mother sobbing in her prayers to the Lord to save him from his godless path.

Jesse Duplantis mentions that his wife was the person who brought him (reluctantly) to the Lord. His original plan had been to live in sin, sex, and rock and roll. She would wait till he was asleep and then pray over him, ordering the devil to release him to freedom. Once experiencing that freedom, he turned directly to God and never looked back.

Jerry Saville told his wife she married the wrong man because she told *him* that she'd made a vow to God to be the wife of a man who would 1) become a very active preacher and 2) would minister to Africa. Jerry loved bikes and cars and planned to be a professional race car driver. He said his wife's exact words were "I'm gonna pray all that out of you," and that he'd better be ready to learn about the power of intercessionary prayer.


So....

There's at least three cases where people were "dragged" (not quite by six strong men but still) into a life with the Lord. They didn't *want* to be there, they didn't *plan* to be there...but they are all still there nonetheless. In all honesty, it makes me wonder just who prayed for me - because I didn't plan to be here either

But anyway...what *is* the power of intercessionary prayer?

Can someone really pray like crazy for a wholly unsaved person and win over the top of his or her objections?

Doesn't that person's free will figure into it?

And most importantly - what does *Scripture* say -- if anything -- on the topic of praying unwilling people onto the right path?

 

[ephesians4_23]

Really good questions.... wow
as far as intercessory prayer.. I think it's powerful. In my opinion, it does not take away free will, however. A person's personal relationship with Jesus is just that- personal and intimate. It may start from seeing another person's relationship with Christ, but it can only go so far before that person has to make their own commitment to Christ. They begin their own journey with Him. So while those preachers may have thought they weren't ready to give up their old lives, if they have really been saved, they have willingly given up their old lives to Christ. No one forced them. I pray for others, but it is the Holy Spirit's job to convict the world in regards to sin. The Holy Spirit spoke to each of those men, perhaps through their loved ones, and probably in other ways as well. But we all have the choice to reject Christ.

The Bible says that Jesus lives to intercede for us (Heb 7:25).... so are we now perfect? Jesus' petition to the Father is the most powerful thing I can think of... and yet we still struggle down here. Plus, if free will were taken out of the equation, we have reason to blame God for everything, and James said that God does not tempt.
I will think more on this and see if I can find some scripture...
hope this helps!

 

[Coconut]

I think it's powerful. In my opinion, it does not take away free will...

Whoa!

Your 'opinion' just left prayer a little weak in the knees there lol...yet the Word says prayer is full of power...so which is it?



I am persuaded to the contrary.

If you examine closely what James, John and Paul wrote in the following passages you`ll see why...


Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has GREAT POWER as it is working. [emphasis mine of course]
Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.
Jas 5:18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
Jas 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, [some think this means 'witnessing', but I say James is still talking about the POWER OF PRAYER in context]
Jas 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

BUT HEAR THIS!

2Co 4:5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.

In light of these truths, it stands to reason that the pithy will of man,
does`nt have a leg to stand on in the light of Gods power.


So can the prayer of a righteous man save a man from himself, or in spite of himself? YES! and AMEN, PRAISE HIS GLORY AND POWER that works thru you and me!

I could go on and on...


2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,"
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
2Pe 1:19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts...

 

[jiggyfly]

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Good post Coconut.

I like this scripture, because it relates that the answers to your prayers are not only conditional to asking in the name of Jesus but also that you bear fruit and that it lasts. Christ's major concern is Father's will and if we are to abide in Christ it must become our major concern. Don't confuse this with a transforming of our will, but rather submission to Father's will. Even Christ had His own will ( which was different than Father's) that He prayed in the garden before His crucifixion, but He submitted to Father's will. Many people after becoming born again change their will from "carnal desires" to so called "kingdom or spiritual desires" resulting in many cases some form of religious service or ministry. But in most cases this is still carnal and selfish and void of HolySpirit's leading.

Praying according to Father's will, generally involves less asking and more listening and then when we understand more fully what Father's will is, we can then pray " not my will but Thine" or "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven". The fruit of this kind of submission is the peace that passes all understanding.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

This is an old thread but can really help to edify those who are believing for others.

In light of these truths, it stands to reason that the pithy will of man,
does`nt have a leg to stand on in the light of Gods power.

Preach it sister you got more witnesses:

Mark 2:4 Since they couldn't bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof over the place where he was. They dug through it and let down the mat on which the paralyzed man was lying.
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

I would be negligent not to mention the conversion of Paul and consider that the saints may have prayed about this man killing converts.He did not even say a prayer asking Jesus in his heart.
Lets not forget Cornelius and his entire house being brought into the kingdom and Gods acknowledging the inclusion of the gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit while Peter yet spake.


It's part of "good Shepard training" a hireling will give up and invoke free will as an excuse to run but that concept doesn't really agree with all scripture.

Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.(ask Paul)
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.(ask Cornelius)
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.(Paul)
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.(ask Peter and Paul)
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?(they can't)


Isaiah 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
Isaiah 62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

When it comes to lost sheep never ever hold your peace day or night.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

Why do we have to fall .? So we can learn to look up and see Gods face..! And let me just add that if you're grand mother is praying for you ..just give up now..!!! Lol