The sin unto death?

[Atonement]

1 John 5:16 “If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.”

This is one of the most difficult verses in the New Testament. Of all the interpretations we have, none seems to answer all the questions concerning this verse. This best interpretation may be found by comparing this verse to what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10 (see also 1 Corinthians 11:30). I believe the “sin unto death” is deliberate, willful, continuous, unrepentant sin of a believer. Sinners die for rejecting his Word and His plan of Salvation. God, in His grace, allows His children to sin without immediately punishing them. However, there comes a point I believe when God will no longer allow a believer to continue in unrepentant sin. When this point is reached, God sometimes decides to punish a Christian, even to the point of taking his or her life.

That is what He did in Acts 5:1-10, and 1 Corinthians 11:28-32. This is perhaps what Paul described to the Corinthian church in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. We are to pray for Christians who are sinning. However, there may come a time when God will no longer hear prayers for a sinning believer for whom He has determined that judgment is due. It is difficult to realize that there are times when it is just too late to pray for a person. God is good and just, and we will just have to let Him decide when it is too late and trust His judgment. This is what I believe, but to be honest it is hard to actually put a finger on this. So if anyone has studied the passage in question or has heard a different side of this, by all means I would love to hear it. Because this is a tough subject for many, please be courteous.

 

[jari]

hi, I read quickly through your post because i just wanted to make one point, it maybe quite simple explanation to the "sin unto death".
"Sin unto death" could mean physical death because if we really sin so that our body comes sick we will die and there is no use to pray for that!
Of course God can heal but if some willingly lets his body to suffer from sin so that it dies then its "sin unto death".

 

[cerebus]

16,5)sin
Concerning sin unto death, Bible teachers have different interpretations. Some say that it refers to the sin of the antichrists in denying that Jesus is the Christ (2:22), which keeps them in death forever. But according to the context of this verse, sin unto death is related to a sinning brother, not to an antichrist or any other unbeliever. Since this section, vv. 14-17, is related to prayer in the fellowship of eternal life (covered in 1:3 —2:11), whatever it deals with must be related to the matter of the fellowship of the divine life. In the fellowship of the divine life there is the governmental dealing of God according to the spiritual condition of each of His children. In God's governmental dealing, some of His children may be destined to physical death in this age because of a certain sin, and others may be destined to physical death because of other sins. The situation is like that of Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, who were dealt with by physical death because they lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-11), and like that of the Corinthian believers, who were dealt with by the same judgment because they did not discern the Body (1 Cor. 11:29-30). This was typified by God's dealing with the children of Israel in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10:5-11). All the Israelites except Caleb and Joshua were judged by God with physical death because of certain sins. God's governmental dealing is severe. Miriam, Aaron, and even Moses were not spared from this kind of dealing, which came because of certain of their failures (Num. 12:1-15; 20:1, 12, 22-29; Deut. 1:37; 3:26-27; 32:48-52). The punishment of God's governmental dealing with His children is not at all related to eternal perdition; it is a dispensational dealing according to the divine government, a dealing that is related to our fellowship with God and with one another. Whether or not a sin is unto death depends on God's judgment according to the sinning believer's position and condition in the house of God. In any case, for the children of God to sin is a serious matter. It may be judged by God with physical death in this age! The apostle did not say that we should make request concerning a sin that is unto death.



From a footnote. I hope it sheds light. It seems to be pretty much in agreeance with what you posted atonement. Sinning unto death is governmental and related to the defilement of the church through the sinning member, especially in the matter of rebellion. Experientially, it is a very deep matter needing much spiritual experience, hence its position at the end of this mysterious epistle.

 

[cerebus]

I would like to add...and you know Greek so you can check this out and tell me if what I'm posting is mistaken...it seems to be a mistake to translate the giver of life as God; the article is 'he' - and the subject is still the asking one; hence 'he shall ask and he will give'...rather than 'he shall ask and God will give'.

The point is that in this case the action is of a person interceding for a sinning brother praying to God to impart saving life to Him, and God does so through the praying one. So he becomes a channel for God to supply life to the brother in sin through himself. This is much deeper than merely to say that we pray and God imparts life.

 

[Atonement]

I think you are posting/response on this topic is to the best of my knowledge at the moment as well. I would like the verse reference so I can understand your question better regarding the Greek used. May I please have the verse in question? Thank you both for your input.

 

[cerebus]

This verse - 1 John 5:16

 

[Atonement]

Thank you very much for the verse. I will look into this when I get home (at work). I could give you the general meaning of the word "he" that is used in Greek, but this would not answer your question I'm afraid. To be most accurate I will use my Greek Bible and then cross reference the word "he" that is used through my Greek dictionary to give the most accurate meaning for you.

 

[cerebus]

Sure do that My Greek is non-existent I'm afraid. What do you think about the other stuff I posted in response to the subject?

 

[Atonement]

Sure do that My Greek is non-existent I'm afraid. What do you think about the other stuff I posted in response to the subject?

What do I think? Well you have mentioned a lot so I will break it down LOL..

Concerning sin unto death, Bible teachers have different interpretations. Some say that it refers to the sin of the antichrists in denying that Jesus is the Christ (2:22),

I never heard of this view regarding the "the sin unto death" to be referenced to the antichrist. I thought that was very interesting because we expect the antichrist to sin and oppose everything of God. Thus abomination of desolations:

But according to the context of this verse, sin unto death is related to a sinning brother, not to an antichrist or any other unbeliever.

This is what I have always heard, it was the believer who has unrepented sin

In God's governmental dealing, some of His children may be destined to physical death in this age because of a certain sin, and others may be destined to physical death because of other sins. The situation is like that of Ananias and his wife, Sapphira, who were dealt with by physical death because they lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:1-11),

Do you think this might also fall into blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

The punishment of God's governmental dealing with His children is not at all related to eternal perdition; it is a dispensational dealing according to the divine government, a dealing that is related to our fellowship with God and with one another. Whether or not a sin is unto death depends on God's judgment according to the sinning believer's position and condition in the house of God.

This I could not agree more with. Many teach once saved always Saved and others teach, we are saved by works through faith. I do not like to deal with this issue because it causes discord among the breathen. All I will say is that if you are a believer repent of your sin and make it right in the sight of our Lord Jesus Christ!

In any case, for the children of God to sin is a serious matter. It may be judged by God with physical death in this age! The apostle did not say that we should make request concerning a sin that is unto death.

I'm in full agreement with this last statement

 

[cerebus]

It seems like you're pretty much in agreement with that passage then.

On the subject of the antichrists - note that it's plural - not the antichrist (who is never referred to as such in the Bible) but the antichrists about whom John gives strong warning in this epistle - 'many antichrists have gone out into the world'....'this is the antichrist, he who denies Jesus having come in the flesh' (I think those references are accurate). So in 1 John the antichrist is a principle of apostasy rather than a specific person. The antichrists of John's epistle are individuals who presumably come into the church and teach heresy to distract the believers, such as the antinomians or the gnostics.


Concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - I have read that this was strictly confined to the lifetime of Jesus. In context of that chapter they said that His miracles were accomplished by Satan - thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit by which He acted. However it's quite an open question, so I'm really not clear and don't have any strong stance.

 

[Atonement]

It seems like you're pretty much in agreement with that passage then.

On the subject of the antichrists - note that it's plural - not the antichrist (who is never referred to as such in the Bible) but the antichrists about whom John gives strong warning in this epistle - 'many antichrists have gone out into the world'....'this is the antichrist, he who denies Jesus having come in the flesh' (I think those references are accurate). So in 1 John the antichrist is a principle of apostasy rather than a specific person. The antichrists of John's epistle are individuals who presumably come into the church and teach heresy to distract the believers, such as the antinomians or the gnostics.


Concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - I have read that this was strictly confined to the lifetime of Jesus. In context of that chapter they said that His miracles were accomplished by Satan - thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit by which He acted. However it's quite an open question, so I'm really not clear and don't have any strong stance.

In terms of the antichrist(s): Yes after I made my statement/response I went and read the verse again and it was my mistake for not reading it first before I replied. I still hold my position I guess, like I said in the beginning of this thread, I really don't know forsure but I only can assume. So on that note; I still don't believe it has anything to do with antichrists (those who deny Christ). 1 John 5:16 is talking to believers in this verse, and this is what I also read in Romans: Paul is speaking to the body of believers if one studies Chapter 6. But I will focus on one verse from that Chapter regarding "sin unto death".

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So I just wanted to add. That I don't find a verse on "sin unto death" in the same text with those that reject God's plan of salvation, unless I'm over looking something?

 

[cerebus]

Yes the footnote is also in agreement that this is a reference to believers and not apostates - actually it's clear within the verse itself - 'his brother'. Nobody can be called your brother who is not a believer. So I think we're clear on that matter .


Concerning Romans 6:16 - I don't think that is referring to the same thing. The 'sin unto death' here is more general, related to the unbelieving world - 'the wages of sin is death'. A man can be a servant of sin and die in his sin or he can be a slave of Christ. The sin unto death in 1 John 5 is quite specific and concerns a backslidden believer.

 

[Atonement]

Concerning Romans 6:16 - I don't think that is referring to the same thing. The 'sin unto death' here is more general, related to the unbelieving world - 'the wages of sin is death'. A man can be a servant of sin and die in his sin or he can be a slave of Christ. The sin unto death in 1 John 5 is quite specific and concerns a backslidden believer.

LOL This is a good study, I thought these would be the same because again Paul is speaking with believers, wow.. You have shed some light on this topic.. Thank you for all your input.

 

[cerebus]

Amen. It's quite enjoyable.

I think it needs to be stressed that this verse (1 John) is very deep and very mature in the experience of a believer. It is difficult for us to say what it refers to exactly because we're lacking the firsthand knowledge (at least I know that I am).

I heard a case of a brother who was praying for somebody whom he knew to be engaged in something quite serious, then at a certain point he had a leading not to pray for him but to pray in a different direction - towards the brother's family; he became clear that the Lord intended him to die because of that sin. And indeed he did die; that was the Lord's sovereign judgment on him.

There is a similar passage in 1 Cor:

5:3**For I, on my part, though being absent in the body but present in the spirit, have already judged, as if being present, him who has thus done this,
5:4**In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you and my spirit have been assembled, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5:5**To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

[chozi]

hi, I read quickly through your post because i just wanted to make one point, it maybe quite simple explanation to the "sin unto death".
"Sin unto death" could mean physical death because if we really sin so that our body comes sick we will die and there is no use to pray for that!
Of course God can heal but if some willingly lets his body to suffer from sin so that it dies then its "sin unto death".

yeh, that one is a bit tricky! but the fact that its in the bible means we cannot just ignore it. i believe by the help of the holy spirit we can understand that verse instead of running aware from it......cheeeeeeeeeeze!

 

[jari]

chozi, I dont quite understand why you quoted me, maybe that was by mistake.

 

[charrot551]

Its up to you God you've opened my eyes to see the truth.I dont know but i know you can fixed it.Something that wants to devasted me even though i knew already bout it.Youre the only knows bout it.But for me i dont know but im pointing it out exactly bout the matter youve want for me.

 

[cerebus]

But the subject of this verse is not sin unto death - that is just a sort of parenthesis adjunct to the main topic. He is talking about a kind of prayer that can give life to a sinning brother, wherein the praying one becomes a channel of saving life to the brother. This is a marvelous revelation. We should not concentrate too much on these minor aspects of the Bible - they are leaves and branches with very little nourishment in them. I would rather focus on being a person who can be one with God to impart life to my brothers in the Lord.

 

[Atonement]

But the subject of this verse is not sin unto death - that is just a sort of parenthesis adjunct to the main topic. He is talking about a kind of prayer that can give life to a sinning brother, wherein the praying one becomes a channel of saving life to the brother. This is a marvelous revelation. We should not concentrate too much on these minor aspects of the Bible - they are leaves and branches with very little nourishment in them. I would rather focus on being a person who can be one with God to impart life to my brothers in the Lord.

Cerebus, I want to first apologize to you. I got really busy last night after work and did not have the time to search the Greek meaning of "he" I am also very curious now to see what it says hehe. Forgive me?

I quoted you above because I agree that people look at verses sometimes to much when the meaning is simple. Other times we do need to dig deeper to understand fully what someone is trying to say. I agree that if we focus ourselves to be the men/women for God that he intended us to be, we will live a fuller, happier life.

 

[cerebus]

np, get back to me when you have done some research :thumbs_up