Tithing?

[Blademan]

There were some good things said. Maureen appears to recognize that there are far greater priorities than the support for a building and a professional clergy class of religious men without real, productive jobs.

Now, if they were itinerant and ministering Christ to the lost and planting new churches, that would be one thing.

However, one will search in vain to find a NT example of local elders ceasing to be productive citizens within their respective communities. I've heard folks state that the apostles in Jerusalem stopped fishing and doing other things so they could "run church business." I could never get those people to reveal how they knew all this. The only logical source of that thinking seemed to stem from their basically assuming the apostles to be of the same caliber of modern, ecclesiaticals who are mostly nonproductive no-counts...which I think is utterly foolish.

The Lord demonstratably directed primary, first fruits giving over to the meeting of genuine needs, which nowhere included the upkeep of real estate or buildings.

 

[spirit1st]

Tithing is out of force. and under the law!

The reason we do things is very important to the LORD!

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:


Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

 

[Maureen]

'first fruits giving over to the meeting of genuine needs, which nowhere included the upkeep of real estate or buildings.'

agreed, the money can be used more wisely, there are many with needs in far off countries, even the need of water, to supply these is by far greater than plowing money into the 'Building Fund'.

I attended a church, were they had differant funds, they accumilated much and were talking about buying premises for a youth club, well that never came about, so the money was used to re-furbish the whole church, it really didn't need it, it wasn't a NEED. How many Pastors and such like are really living on the bare minimal, I shouldn't think too many.
I don't begrude them a sum, but lets not be greedy, and remember who it is that blessed us with all good things from His hand.

Much needs to be changed in this dept. and I shall just keep on saving for my heart felt project in Kissi, Africa.

Hey, great news, I'm being Baptised this Wed night, nearly 5 years after being saved, it just never came to pass till now, I tried asking before and nothing happened, joined a differant church nearly 3 months ago just, and Hallelujah, it is happening, without me even asking, isn't that just our Lord.

In His time, all He asks that we wait on Him.

 

[aaroncam85]

Shalom, i just read some of your message in regards to tithing there are some interesting facts and i understand the Bible does not call us to tithe ten percent but if you look at i think its leviticus the isrealities would of given firstfruits and other offerings and i feel that know we need to tithe to support Gods work and workman, Paul says a workman is worthy of his pay.
God Bless:

Hi maureen i feel in regards to your story about the church using your money wrongly, first please dont let that put you of giving and secondly i feel you should take the pastor aside and have a quiet word.

 

[Maureen]

well actually I don't belong to that church anymore.
that's a very long story nothing to do with that money though.
More to do with my husbands thinking regarding that church, so I just went somewhere else, to keep him happy.
so really couldn't take it up with the Pastor anyway too long ago now.

It certainly doesn't prevent my giving to church needs, in fact were I attend now, they do great work for the causes that are so dear to my own heart, the 3rd world countries, they have built a village in Ethiopia which includes a clinic, a school, a church, etc, so the money is being plowed into this project plus other countries such as Kenya, Romainia, and 3 other places which I can't remember the names of.

Now this is close to my heart strings so I have no problem in giving, we give especially to the Missionary work once every month in church.

I do know the church itself needs money for it's upkeep, electric, heating, telephone, etc it's my husband who has the problem at supporting this, but then he's not saved, yet, but he will understand when Jesus reaches down and touches his heart also.

 

[Capt. Mac]

Tithing

I do not belong to a church building anymore, but I still give to my Lord in other ways, I am not by any means patting myself on the back and maybe I shouldn't even make any comments about what I do or how I do it. God stated that what ever you do don't brag or boast, and I'm not, but I believe you can give to God in all kinds of worthwhile means. My wife (Carolyn) and I are not rich by no means, I have been at my present job for 20 years and I was before this in the service for 16 and a half.

I guess what I'm saying is we give to feed the children, to St. Judes hospital for children, we give to an organization that gives Bibles to service members and to those who can't afford to buy them and also to other countries. We give to Jewish organizations that help feed the jews,
they help to bring jews to their homeland from other parts of the world. We also give locally to organizations that help to cloth and feed the needy here in the area we live in.

I don't believe Jesus ment for us to only give to a building, but to show our love for our fellowman, I remember reading where God is Love! and where the bible states that when we are judged we will be asked, why did you not feed me when I was hungry? Why did you not cloth me when I was naked? Why did you not give me drink when I was thirsty?

I get my pleasure from trying to help those who are in need. I do not enjoy paying money into a building fund, helping to pay the power bill for a building that will not be standing when Jesus comes back to set up his kingdom here on this earth.

I look at the time when Jesus was here teaching and preaching, did he have a large church to preach out of to a group of people or did he go out to the people and take the Good News to them, he went searching for those lost sheep, he did not simply wait for them to come to him.

Let me tell you wonderful brothers and sisters something that was told to me as a member of some churches. When a pastor of a church stands up behind a pulpit and states that if someone in the congreation stops coming to service he will not go to see whats wrong (find that lost sheep) he expects the members to come to him and explain their reasons. That kind of statement just put a bad taste in my mouth.

I believe there are messages given to us in the Bible, the words are not just words, and thats the way I try to study the word, I search for Gods message to me and what he expects of me. Do I feel guilty about not going to a man made church? NO!

I want to say to all of you; God Bless You All for standing fast in the name of the Lord. The times are going to continually get worse and worse, but I ask you all to stand fast in the word of our Lord and His promises.

 

[By His Grace]

Ever since i've been saved almost 10 years , i've been tithing and i think that's the bible way. Whenever i skip to tithe or use that money for something else doesnt matter whether is for the kingdom or not i always have conviction of it.....and that's how i believe in tithing. Math.17:24-27.

 

[spirit1st]

Giving is GOOD!
The reason we give is even more important !

GOD LOVES a cheerful giver !
But, We give out of LOVE ,Not force!
Tithing is under the law and there for force !

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This is the way , we are to give!

 

[jiggyfly]

Today a lot of christians are deceived concerning the old covenant practice of tithing.

 

[Laudite]

Brothers and Sisters! I wish to address two points of view and open up perhaps a source of serious reflection and learning.

First- that tithing is not necessary: these long, detailed posts use what logicians would call redefining the premises. note how the answers often redefine the questions so that what was asked as general questions about christian life are redefined (or their parameters reset, formally) to talk about a history of hebraic law. Even more alarming is the suggestion that there is no value to the law! (the discussion of romans going on now provides a cogent explanation as to why this is not true) Let me put it to ya'll this way: I agree that you are not compelled to give 10% of your income automatically only to your church. But if you think that you don't need to give of yourself and your funds to support Christ's work- I suggest some serious reading of the bible my friends. The phrase 'in so much as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me' sticks out in my head. If you want to explain to Christ on the last day why you didn't care to feed the hungry, be my guest.

Second- this notion that the church and maintenance thereof are bad or not needed. Surely there is no call for rubies and diamonds when people starve, but neither is it true that buying nice things for the glory of God is useless or bad. Consider that this is essentially the claim of Judas when he complains of the cost of the annointing oil for which Christ rebukes him. Grand edifices are enduring connections with a body of believers- they inspire awe of God, and help connect us with our heritage. On a smaller scale, a building can help groups to function better and make the church a closer community. These things do have a point. They certainly are not the only thing to give money to, but you can't have the church experience that most christians have without paying for a church.

Now- it is true that Christ fufills the law and we are therefore no longer subject to its exact mandate (tithing according to old testament specifications would be nonsensical in a modern world) but we can examine that law, what Christ says about it, and understand the underlying value the law expresses.
So what is the point of the tithing rule of old? It provides for priests, widows, orphans, strangers, etc. Do we still need priests? of course we do- and they deserve to get paid like everyone else. Furthermore, we surely have widows, orphans, and other needy persons. The tithe was a mechanism to support those who could not support themselves. Of course, there are some ways in which the OT Law set up a soverign state, and so the tithe sort of provided a similar function to welfare. at the same time, however, the law is also a spiritual law and various other places in the bible teach us that the need to help others in not just a social but a moral requirement. There is, then, value in taking money and giving it to support the needy. Many churches (especially the larger organized churches) have transparent processes for dealing with tithe income. In my church, for example, various funds are set up and parishoners may, either with envelopes or memo lines on checks, specify all their money go to a certain fund. Unspecified funds go into a general pool, a certain amount of which pays for upkeep functions, a certain amount go to the projects and charities locally the church supports, and a certain portion goes to the diocese and national organization both for upkeep and to fund national and international charitable efforts. (note that the higher up the money goes the smaller the percentage that goes towards upkeep. To be defined as an effective charity, in fact, no more than 10% total may go to upkeep. Most large churches are rated effective charities.) The loose plate (just cash in the collection plate) may, on certain sundays, be designated for a special effort. Every third sunday of the month, for example, these funds go to the Bishop's fund (which in my case gives the money to a micro-loan effort that establishes sustainable industry and food production in very poor countries.) Now, you have free conscience and there's nothing wrong with taking your tithe and giving it to a specific charity. It's probably good and right that if you use the services of a church, you contribute to its continued existance just because you shouldn't be a leech.
Now to the sticky question of 'how much?' I personally think that Christ's statement of 10% is a valid guideline. You can't find salvation by giving money, and more money does not mean more 'points with the big guy'. Consider that there is so much inequity in this world that no matter how much we give it can't be enough. Think of the end of Schindler's List when Schindler weeps that he has a car to escape in and a suit to wear because they might have bought more jews from the death camps. If you remember, we do have an accounting to make and Christ will ask why we did not help his brothers. No matter how much we give we are nothing compared to the enormity of inequity- we will always be in the same place- weeping and despising what we did for ourselves because that has no justifiable consequence. It seems to me this is an example on the ground of what we mean when we say that salvation may be only by faith in christ because no man is justified in God's eyes. So the 10% that Christ mentions shows that it is ok- there is a limit of what we can and are required to do. I personally think that Christ was speaking to a relatively much 'poorer (at least in terms of disposable income) crowd and so perhaps we might give more, but perhaps not. In this larger sense, then, tithing is necessary because it is the rational and required consequence of caring for our fellow man- feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. No person, methinks, can have Christ in their heart and the Bible's truth in their mind and avoid that concern for their fellow man.

 

[jiggyfly]

They certainly are not the only thing to give money to, but you can't have the church experience that most christians have without paying for a church.

I don't recall reading of this in the first century ekklesia and it certainly isn't true of the persecuted ekklesia in China. So if this experience can only be had by attending a religious liturgical meeting in a building it must be simply religious.

Do we still need priests? of course we do- and they deserve to get paid like everyone else.

In the new covenant, the simply reality is we are all priests. The clergy/laity system is nothing more than man's carnal thinking that has turned into a religious tradition.

Matthew 23:1-15
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures. 3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach. 4 They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.
5 “Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside,* and they wear extra long tassels on their robes. 6 And how they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the most prominent seats in the synagogue! 7 They enjoy the attention they get on the streets, and they enjoy being called ‘Rabbi.’* 8 Don’t ever let anyone call you ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one teacher, and all of you are on the same level as brothers and sisters.* 9 And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father. 10 And don’t let anyone call you ‘Master,’ for there is only one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be a servant. 12 But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
13 “How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you won’t let others enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and you won’t go in yourselves.* 15 Yes, how terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn him into twice the son of hell as you yourselves are.

 

[Bunnytus]

Your rebuttal is nicely written. I love to give but choose not to always tithe. I have always struggled with tithing for a few reasons but the two main ones are: 1) because the churches I have been in harp on the need to give constantly and make you feel guilty if you do not tithe which actually leads into number 2 point: it has become hard to trust where you money is truly going. If I am in service and I feel God needs to add an offering I do so, otherwise I do not. May sound a bit "off" but I trust in my heart and my judgement because it comes from God.

Example of first reason: My husbands' church literally spent the whole hour of service on giving. They brought in handouts and had displays on the overhead created in Powerpoint. They almost were to the point of demanding our 10% without going that far. The words spoken were, "You must tithe 10% of your income, even if you don't make much!"

I think God showed us the pitfalls that we are likely to miss on occassion. (Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't feel that way).

It boils down to one thing: it's our choice to tithe or not. If we are not correctly fulfilling HIS requirements HE will make us aware of this. If we are devout christians then we will be able to hear when he speaks to us and deliver when he requires us to do so.

I think tithing is very important, because the scriptures clearly states, we are robbing God, if we don't. These scripture was inspired by God, so we can't ignore it.

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

We must listen to God when He tells us what to do with our 10th. As Blademan stated above, you can give your 10th to widows, orphans or other believers that are in need of anything.

Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

God will see what you are doing.

I think most people out there, wonder what the churches do with the money, this in turn puts doubts into peoples minds, (which is from the devil of course), then we end up not giving nothing.

I enjoy giving now. I need to do more, it's on my heart, and I am being disobediant to God.

Before being born again, I hated giving. God has changed my heart in that respect. I do it for Him, not for man.

 

[Laudite]

I don't recall reading of this in the first century ekklesia and it certainly isn't true of the persecuted ekklesia in China. So if this experience can only be had by attending a religious liturgical meeting in a building it must be simply religious.
[/COLOR]

That's true- but you have to consider that we don't live in first century Roman society. For one thing, we tend to be busier, and there's much more equality in terms of money and opportunity. So yes- there were no buildings- that's because the church would meet in the homes of the more wealthy and prominent members. Of course, this has its own set of problems (think of Corinthians.) It's all very well to examine how the early church acted, but we also need to think of what do we want to do here and now. Having a place to meet, pews to sit on, and an organ to play music are all useful and desireable things. If you want that, you have a responsibility not to leech off of other members of the church to provide that opportunity. If you prefer your bible study out in the woods or in basements- then good for you, go and worship the Lord as your heart directs. As for me, and I think a large proportion of people, the church as it is set up is good, and requires upkeep.



In the new covenant, the simply reality is we are all priests. The clergy/laity system is nothing more than man's carnal thinking that has turned into a religious tradition.


Absolutely true. but you are making an argument as to why there's no ecclesiastic authority over conscience and will. That doesn't mean that there's no room for a person whose primary persuit is the study of God and helps others to find that life. The early deacons filled this role- because not everyone has the time, talent, or inclination to persue God. You also seem to make a theologically radical point in assuming that there is no priesthood save the priesthood of all believers- but that's way beyond the scope of this thread. I think that functionally, we can agree that the priest fulfills a role that is useful and desirable in the church.

 

[jiggyfly]

That's true- but you have to consider that we don't live in first century Roman society. For one thing, we tend to be busier, and there's much more equality in terms of money and opportunity. So yes- there were no buildings- that's because the church would meet in the homes of the more wealthy and prominent members. Of course, this has its own set of problems (think of Corinthians.) It's all very well to examine how the early church acted, but we also need to think of what do we want to do here and now. Having a place to meet, pews to sit on, and an organ to play music are all useful and desireable things. If you want that, you have a responsibility not to leech off of other members of the church to provide that opportunity. If you prefer your bible study out in the woods or in basements- then good for you, go and worship the Lord as your heart directs. As for me, and I think a large proportion of people, the church as it is set up is good, and requires upkeep.





In the new covenant, the simply reality is we are all priests. The clergy/laity system is nothing more than man's carnal thinking that has turned into a religious tradition.


Absolutely true. but you are making an argument as to why there's no ecclesiastic authority over conscience and will. That doesn't mean that there's no room for a person whose primary persuit is the study of God and helps others to find that life. The early deacons filled this role- because not everyone has the time, talent, or inclination to persue God. You also seem to make a theologically radical point in assuming that there is no priesthood save the priesthood of all believers- but that's way beyond the scope of this thread. I think that functionally, we can agree that the priest fulfills a role that is useful and desirable in the church.

Actually I don't agree at all. I stopped participating in the religious institution's liturgical system several years ago.

 

[ablesd12]

I like This one

I agree with your doctrine not your interpretation. I don't think you studied very well. BUT!! Yes the children are free but do we use our liberty as an occasion to sin? NO WAY!! Giving is essential. Everything in Scripture is a metaphor of sowing seed and reaping a harvest and the amount you sow depends on your harvest. Even Jesus spoke of His death in this manner saying that unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it abides alone but if it dies it bears fruit. Paul taught that we should render custom to whom custom is due and tribute to whm tribute. And to further quote your scripture that the children are free and indeed we are Jesus also said BUT SO THAT WE DON'T OFFEND THEM, GO AND CATCH A FISH.... you know the story. Titheing is not commanded but its a great way for you to show forth faith in the face of Jesus Christ and to be obedient to those that are over you in the Lord. Not only to the good and gentle but to the mean and hateful ones as well for this is thankworthy to God if you sufer unjustly for His names sake.

 

[jiggyfly]

I agree with your doctrine not your interpretation. I don't think you studied very well. BUT!! Yes the children are free but do we use our liberty as an occasion to sin? NO WAY!! Giving is essential. Everything in Scripture is a metaphor of sowing seed and reaping a harvest and the amount you sow depends on your harvest. Even Jesus spoke of His death in this manner saying that unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it abides alone but if it dies it bears fruit. Paul taught that we should render custom to whom custom is due and tribute to whm tribute. And to further quote your scripture that the children are free and indeed we are Jesus also said BUT SO THAT WE DON'T OFFEND THEM, GO AND CATCH A FISH.... you know the story. Titheing is not commanded but its a great way for you to show forth faith in the face of Jesus Christ and to be obedient to those that are over you in the Lord. Not only to the good and gentle but to the mean and hateful ones as well for this is thankworthy to God if you sufer unjustly for His names sake.

What post or person are you addressing with your post Ablesd12 ??:coocoo:

 

[Laudite]

Actually I don't agree at all. I stopped participating in the religious institution's liturgical system several years ago.

Really? Which institution, and what led you to stop participating?

 

[ablesd12]

I'm not very forum literate

The ahhh :coocoo: was slightly offensive and a true acknowledgement of what your character consists of. Open rebuke is better than secret love. Asking me a question and throwing that silly face just told me that you have some issues of pride to deal with beloved and you have need of repentence. Peace and I apologize that I'm not as computer literate as you are

 

[By His Grace]

No shortcuts in tithing!!

I still believe and emphasize in tithing and this is why, the people who dont believe in it please read Heb. 7:1-10. I 'll emphasize my main points:

Heb.7 vs2 "And Abraham gave him a tenth of everything...."
-The new testament also confirms that Abraham was a tither. Agree? Okey, lets go to the next one:

vs.8" In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living."
-The dead paid the tenth ie Abraham and all his decendants and the living too who are YOU and I.
-God promised to bless Abraham and all his descendants in OT hence confirmed it in N.Testament and WE do believe it and claim those promises, then, if we claim his blessings why are we fast to deny the tithing!!! Non tithers should then stop claiming the promises!! They love the harvest but dont want to sow....The promises of God dont work one sided, if you dont tithe then dont expect God to bless you as he promised Abraham. Its either YOU embrace the whole package or leave it......and that's His word.

 

[By His Grace]

Here is another confirmation that N.Testament people are Tithers:

Matth.23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and pharisees, you hypocrates! You give a tenth of your spices-mint,dill and cummin. But you've neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness......."

-This shows clearly that we should tithe, Jesus was rebuking them on a certain matter and happened to mention tithing. Yes they were tithing but on the other hand they were neglecting other important things.

-I'll also say this to non-tithers, they are busy with other kingdom
bussiness but they are neglecting tithing which is very important as the rest, thus robbing God. Its God's word and Jesus encouraged it, so why do you choose to neglect it. Partial obedience is total disobedience!!