The Separation of Christianity
Loyal
From the time I first recall being aware of and being concerned about God at the age of 6 years, I went through Catholicism, Oneness Jesus Only and then to a non-denominational setting. All of them were essential to my growth in the Lord. All of them had "good" in them. Which part of "good" should I have excluded? Who am I now, still coming so short of God's glory, to decide that God is not in control of the situation. Perhaps all of these variations are intended to be part of the sifting process for some of us to bring us closer to Him...
Loyal
Well of course if you're a hard core non free-will Calvinist, then God himself caused all these divisions.
If on the other hand, your believe a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand and these other religions are from Satan, then I would say no.
My personal feeling is that "religion" is divided up into several categories. I hate the word religion, but you really can't get around it. Some people say they don't have a "religion" they just have Jesus, that's fine
but even that is technically a "religion".
Category one.
Non - Christian religions. - Islam, Hinduism, New Age, Ba'hai, Buddhism, Atheism, etc... I would say these are from Satan, Of course God doesn't approve of them.
Category two.
Denominations that call themselves Christian denominations (but really aren't) - Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Universalists, Antimonianists, Roman Catholics, Christ Science, etc.... These are from Satan also.
Category three.
Non-denominational meetings - Not affiliated with any specific "religion", often these meet in people's homes, at schools, and sometimes they have an actual church building. They stress not conforming
to any doctrine of man. As I said earlier, even this is religion. I have been to some of these groups, some are great, very Bible based and scripture oriented. Others not so much.
Category four.
Mainstream churches - Pentecostals, Methodists, Baptists, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assembly of God, Lutheran, Foursquare, Nazarene, (many others....)
I am assuming your question was really asked with categories three and four above in mind. Even some mainstream churches have lost their way recently, the United Methodists and the ELCA for example are now accepting and supporting homosexual clergymen (and women). Obviously God doesn't approve of this either.
As for whether you are a Baptist or Evangelical or Foursquare or Non-denominational or whatever... I don't think God really cares too much. Of course he wants unity. But in the core-doctrines (apostles creed, nicene creed, etc...)
we are unified. People have different ways of worshipping. I think that's OK with God. If you believe water baptism is required, fine baptize. If you believe speaking in tongues is required, fine speak in tongues, if you believe following the commandments is required, then follow them. I think we make too much out of the small things.
But we do need to be in a church of some kind some where. We need to be a part of the body. We need to be lifting each other up in prayer. Confessing our sins one to another, loving one another, bearing one another's burdens, not forsaking the assembling together (as some do). Because where two or more are gathered.... The body is not one member, but many. Without the body you have no accountability, no one praying for you. You can't tithe (some say
this isn't required, if you believe that, fine don't do it) but even so, you can't give to the church. Loving your neighbor is sometimes messy business, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it costs you (money, tears, blood, sweat...) Some one asked what else do you need to do besides love God and love your neighbor. Well, you can't love your neighbor if you don't know them, if you're not involved with them. Someone asked Jesus what it meant to love your neighbor. ( Luke 10) and he told the story of the good Samaritan. He also told the difference between the sheep and the goats.
If you don't like church you probably won't like the New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
If on the other hand, your believe a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand and these other religions are from Satan, then I would say no.
My personal feeling is that "religion" is divided up into several categories. I hate the word religion, but you really can't get around it. Some people say they don't have a "religion" they just have Jesus, that's fine
but even that is technically a "religion".
Category one.
Non - Christian religions. - Islam, Hinduism, New Age, Ba'hai, Buddhism, Atheism, etc... I would say these are from Satan, Of course God doesn't approve of them.
Category two.
Denominations that call themselves Christian denominations (but really aren't) - Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Universalists, Antimonianists, Roman Catholics, Christ Science, etc.... These are from Satan also.
Category three.
Non-denominational meetings - Not affiliated with any specific "religion", often these meet in people's homes, at schools, and sometimes they have an actual church building. They stress not conforming
to any doctrine of man. As I said earlier, even this is religion. I have been to some of these groups, some are great, very Bible based and scripture oriented. Others not so much.
Category four.
Mainstream churches - Pentecostals, Methodists, Baptists, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assembly of God, Lutheran, Foursquare, Nazarene, (many others....)
I am assuming your question was really asked with categories three and four above in mind. Even some mainstream churches have lost their way recently, the United Methodists and the ELCA for example are now accepting and supporting homosexual clergymen (and women). Obviously God doesn't approve of this either.
As for whether you are a Baptist or Evangelical or Foursquare or Non-denominational or whatever... I don't think God really cares too much. Of course he wants unity. But in the core-doctrines (apostles creed, nicene creed, etc...)
we are unified. People have different ways of worshipping. I think that's OK with God. If you believe water baptism is required, fine baptize. If you believe speaking in tongues is required, fine speak in tongues, if you believe following the commandments is required, then follow them. I think we make too much out of the small things.
But we do need to be in a church of some kind some where. We need to be a part of the body. We need to be lifting each other up in prayer. Confessing our sins one to another, loving one another, bearing one another's burdens, not forsaking the assembling together (as some do). Because where two or more are gathered.... The body is not one member, but many. Without the body you have no accountability, no one praying for you. You can't tithe (some say
this isn't required, if you believe that, fine don't do it) but even so, you can't give to the church. Loving your neighbor is sometimes messy business, sometimes it hurts, sometimes it costs you (money, tears, blood, sweat...) Some one asked what else do you need to do besides love God and love your neighbor. Well, you can't love your neighbor if you don't know them, if you're not involved with them. Someone asked Jesus what it meant to love your neighbor. ( Luke 10) and he told the story of the good Samaritan. He also told the difference between the sheep and the goats.
If you don't like church you probably won't like the New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
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Member
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
If they are born again; if God is glorified in them; if they love one another without the exclusion of other denominations or etc- I really do not see a problem.
I believe we are to be one in spirit and purpose; that does not mean we will agree on everything until the day Christ comes back. Perhaps the hand should not worry about the foot but instead care for it lovingly.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
If they are born again; if God is glorified in them; if they love one another without the exclusion of other denominations or etc- I really do not see a problem.
I believe we are to be one in spirit and purpose; that does not mean we will agree on everything until the day Christ comes back. Perhaps the hand should not worry about the foot but instead care for it lovingly.
Member
Division does not please God at all. That's what denominations basically are, divisions. And they name themselves after persons, things, doctrines, or places, other than Christ.
They are not in the perfect will of God, never were, never have been, never will be.
Once the church was all believers in a city. There are no letters written to denominations in the bible, but only to all believers within a particular city.These believers separated into parties, sects, according to the person or doctrine they followed (1 Cor 3:4). Over time they organized themselves and become organized divisions, or denominations.
There's no reason why 30 believers on one street cannot worship with the other 50 believers on the same street, if they all have the same Holy Spirit, one life, one Father, one Lord, etc etc.
Denomination not only upsets God, it sends the wrong message to the world and damages Christ's testimony of one body on the Earth,, and as much as denominations talk about loving one another, they are not practicing it, if they don't meet and fellowship together. It's like saying I love my family but never spending time with them.
Jesus prayed for unity in John 17. So denominations are not satisfying this prayer.
But on the other hand He expected division, knew it would happen, and uses it to accomplish His purpose. This is His permissive will. This does not mean God does not use denominations. But I would question whether God really does instruct some people to start a new division when they are not happy with the division they are already in.
But unity brings blessing:
Ps 133:1 A song of ascents. Of David. How good and pleasant it is when God's people live together in unity!
The bible defines churches as the church in Jerusalem, church in Antioch, church in Rome, church in Ephesus etc etc. From God's point of view, a church is every believer in a particular city. But this church is still one church with all the other churches on the Earth. That is, it is not church of Jerusalem, but church in Jerusalem. It is the church of God in Jerusalem.
This is where Roman Catholicism falls short, even though it believes in one worldwide church and unity, which is kind of good - there is no such thing as a "church of one place" existing in another place. The "church of Rome" in another city makes no sense according to the bible. Catholicism is basically another denomination and imposes the practice of Rome on other cities. When in the Bible, each church in each city was allowed to form and shape itself according to its own culture, language etc, and overseen by elders within the church itself, not from afar by a pope or bishop.
There was no such thing as churches named after nationality, country, race, doctrine, practice (eg baptism). And there was no such thing as a "non-denominational" church, which in itself is a denomination.
Isn't it funny how because of denominations, the true church feels it has to define itself as "non-denominational"?
It's like a Christian church having to define itself as "non-Hindu", or "non-Buddhist".
Basically according to the bible, church is about assembling ourselves together with all the believers in the city in which we live for fellowship in the Holy Spirit and with each other.
It says assemble yourselves together (Heb 10:25), not organize yourselves together. Denominations are basically groups of Christians who organize themselves together for a specific purpose other than fellowship of the Holy Spirit. Usually this organizational purpose is to conduct services centred around a particular style or flavor of worship. The concept of a "service" itself is for a few specially gifted people (pastors, priests) to minister something spiritual to the majority congregation who normally just receive and do not participate or use their spiritual gifts in the service.
This concept of a service itself is foreign to the bible since all believers were encouraged to participate and use their spiritual gifts
1 Cor 14:26 "When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. "
It does not say " when you assemble, only the pastor or priest or theologically trained people has a teaching, revelation ", which is the practice of almost all denominations today.
Actually the bible doesn't say we can separate or organize ourselves to worship together in different styles, it only says we must worship in spirit and truth (John 4:6-30) and let there be no divisions among you (1 Cor 1:10).
We can note that when Paul said let there be no divisions among you (1 Cor 1:10), He was writing to the church in Corinth.. that is, all the believers in the city of Corinth. He was not writing to a denomination or a small group within the city.
But denominations have reinterpreted this verse to mean that "if there is no division in our denomination, then everything is OK". Wrong - Paul meant for all believers in the whole city to not be in division. This rules out the existence of denominations altogether.
Behind denomination is basically some of these things:
Independence and spiritual pride: a denomination is basically a limb of the body that says "I don't need you" to the other parts of the Body (1 Cor 12:21)
spiritual pride: believing one way of practice is better than another which causes them to avoid fellowship with others, when the bible says we are all brethren and equals.
personal preference: this is basically selfishness, the belief that I should be able to worship in the way I want to, so I will find or even start a group that worships the way I like. This will cater to every kind of taste in music, hymns, fast songs, slow songs, grape juice, wine, the right kind of bread.
Idolatary: denominations have created their own "golden calf" for themself, whether it is spiritual gifts, the ceremony of bread and wine ( the mass, communion etc), method of baptism or worship style or insistence in speaking in tongues in corporate way. These things have become #1 priority over fellowshipping in the Spirit with all believers, because it is upon these types of things that they separate and divide themselves. I know of a decades long rift between two particular protestant denominations over dispute regarding the bread and wine.
Division begets division and this is why divisions continue to occur again and again. The reason division occurs is because people are not willing to bear the cross. The solution to division is humility, considering others better than ourselves, and love and acceptance, and most of all, discerning the Body of the Lord.
They are not in the perfect will of God, never were, never have been, never will be.
Once the church was all believers in a city. There are no letters written to denominations in the bible, but only to all believers within a particular city.These believers separated into parties, sects, according to the person or doctrine they followed (1 Cor 3:4). Over time they organized themselves and become organized divisions, or denominations.
There's no reason why 30 believers on one street cannot worship with the other 50 believers on the same street, if they all have the same Holy Spirit, one life, one Father, one Lord, etc etc.
Denomination not only upsets God, it sends the wrong message to the world and damages Christ's testimony of one body on the Earth,, and as much as denominations talk about loving one another, they are not practicing it, if they don't meet and fellowship together. It's like saying I love my family but never spending time with them.
Jesus prayed for unity in John 17. So denominations are not satisfying this prayer.
But on the other hand He expected division, knew it would happen, and uses it to accomplish His purpose. This is His permissive will. This does not mean God does not use denominations. But I would question whether God really does instruct some people to start a new division when they are not happy with the division they are already in.
But unity brings blessing:
Ps 133:1 A song of ascents. Of David. How good and pleasant it is when God's people live together in unity!
The bible defines churches as the church in Jerusalem, church in Antioch, church in Rome, church in Ephesus etc etc. From God's point of view, a church is every believer in a particular city. But this church is still one church with all the other churches on the Earth. That is, it is not church of Jerusalem, but church in Jerusalem. It is the church of God in Jerusalem.
This is where Roman Catholicism falls short, even though it believes in one worldwide church and unity, which is kind of good - there is no such thing as a "church of one place" existing in another place. The "church of Rome" in another city makes no sense according to the bible. Catholicism is basically another denomination and imposes the practice of Rome on other cities. When in the Bible, each church in each city was allowed to form and shape itself according to its own culture, language etc, and overseen by elders within the church itself, not from afar by a pope or bishop.
There was no such thing as churches named after nationality, country, race, doctrine, practice (eg baptism). And there was no such thing as a "non-denominational" church, which in itself is a denomination.
Isn't it funny how because of denominations, the true church feels it has to define itself as "non-denominational"?
It's like a Christian church having to define itself as "non-Hindu", or "non-Buddhist".
Basically according to the bible, church is about assembling ourselves together with all the believers in the city in which we live for fellowship in the Holy Spirit and with each other.
It says assemble yourselves together (Heb 10:25), not organize yourselves together. Denominations are basically groups of Christians who organize themselves together for a specific purpose other than fellowship of the Holy Spirit. Usually this organizational purpose is to conduct services centred around a particular style or flavor of worship. The concept of a "service" itself is for a few specially gifted people (pastors, priests) to minister something spiritual to the majority congregation who normally just receive and do not participate or use their spiritual gifts in the service.
This concept of a service itself is foreign to the bible since all believers were encouraged to participate and use their spiritual gifts
1 Cor 14:26 "When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. "
It does not say " when you assemble, only the pastor or priest or theologically trained people has a teaching, revelation ", which is the practice of almost all denominations today.
Actually the bible doesn't say we can separate or organize ourselves to worship together in different styles, it only says we must worship in spirit and truth (John 4:6-30) and let there be no divisions among you (1 Cor 1:10).
We can note that when Paul said let there be no divisions among you (1 Cor 1:10), He was writing to the church in Corinth.. that is, all the believers in the city of Corinth. He was not writing to a denomination or a small group within the city.
But denominations have reinterpreted this verse to mean that "if there is no division in our denomination, then everything is OK". Wrong - Paul meant for all believers in the whole city to not be in division. This rules out the existence of denominations altogether.
Behind denomination is basically some of these things:
Independence and spiritual pride: a denomination is basically a limb of the body that says "I don't need you" to the other parts of the Body (1 Cor 12:21)
spiritual pride: believing one way of practice is better than another which causes them to avoid fellowship with others, when the bible says we are all brethren and equals.
personal preference: this is basically selfishness, the belief that I should be able to worship in the way I want to, so I will find or even start a group that worships the way I like. This will cater to every kind of taste in music, hymns, fast songs, slow songs, grape juice, wine, the right kind of bread.
Idolatary: denominations have created their own "golden calf" for themself, whether it is spiritual gifts, the ceremony of bread and wine ( the mass, communion etc), method of baptism or worship style or insistence in speaking in tongues in corporate way. These things have become #1 priority over fellowshipping in the Spirit with all believers, because it is upon these types of things that they separate and divide themselves. I know of a decades long rift between two particular protestant denominations over dispute regarding the bread and wine.
Division begets division and this is why divisions continue to occur again and again. The reason division occurs is because people are not willing to bear the cross. The solution to division is humility, considering others better than ourselves, and love and acceptance, and most of all, discerning the Body of the Lord.
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Loyal
Something we should remember is that because of Solomon having so many women, God removed the northern 10 tribes from the kingdom of Solomon's son. Man, however, in the person of Jeroboam, the first anointed king of those northern tribes, went a step further than what God prescribed by setting of the worship of two golden calves at two places (Bethel and Dan) in his kingdom instead of supporting the continued worship of Jehovah at the temple at Jerusalem. He also established men other than the sons of Aaron as priests among the northern tribes. Jeroboam's purpose was selfish intended to maintain his own power. He forgot the promise the anointing prophet had made to him:
"And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee." I Kings 11:38
God did separate the tribes into two parts, but He did not establish any new places of worship, nor golden calves to worship, nor non-Aaronic priests .
Is there not be a message in this for us today?
"And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee." I Kings 11:38
God did separate the tribes into two parts, but He did not establish any new places of worship, nor golden calves to worship, nor non-Aaronic priests .
Is there not be a message in this for us today?
Member
Good point. God says "you must worship in this way" but we say "I want to worship like this" (self).
Anyway. The concept of worship is an old testament concept. Church in the new testament is not really for worship, but for fellowship.
Worship is coming together in a place to render some sort of devotion to God. This has the sense that God is far away in heaven and we are trying to reach Him from Earth. That's why people sometimes raise their hands and look up to the sky in worship.
But fellowship is coming together to meet and interact with the Lord and each other. There is no need to lift our hands up and look to the sky or ask Him to come down, because He is already with us, in us and around us and we enjoy His presence.
So, God says "I want you to fellowship in unity, with all the believers in Corinth (or whichever place we live)", and we say "but I like fast modern songs so I will fellowship in this denomination, and ignore all the other Christians in my street, district, city, who don't belong to my denomination".
All denominations are really interested in building their own house. That is, promoting their brand, style, throughout the world. Not really concerned with building God's house.
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Member
Psalm 95:6
Come, let us worship and bow down, Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
1 Timothy 2
8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands,
without wrath and dissension.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.
Philippians 3:3
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory
in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.
Member
We need to reemember history, and why denomonations materialised in the first place. There was a time 5 or 600 years ago when there was only one shop in town, and it led no-where. Truth was trodden underfoot, holy living was anathema, salvation as such was purely works based, myths, lies and superstitions dominated religious life. God needed to act in order to re-establish truth. Beginning with Wycliffe, who brought the word of God to the people, God began the reformation.
Truth was progressive. Too much at once would have overwhelmed the church. So slowly, using different people (reformers) at different times, God brought insight, and revelation to His people. A variety of truths became foundation principles of God's new church. The Bible became the basis for teaching and doctrine as opposed to tradition. Baptism by immrsion was established in place of sprinkling. Prayer, heartfelt, faith filled, became the norm as opposd to rote repetition. Holy living and walking the talk by the power of the Holy Spirit...keeping God's commandments...seeking to be filled with Christ's righteousness...overcame the prevalence of vice and sin. Freedom of religion as opposed to forced ritualism ..etc etc. Protestantism was God's movement for the reformation of God's church...the problem however was that each reformer refused further light. So what we ended up with was denominations whose roots were founded in truth, but which languished and made no progress toward complete withdrawal from papal error, retaining Sunday as a religious institutionally enforced day of rest for example among others. Today, these denominations are reversing what God had begun. Returning to Rome and introducing doctrines foreign to Biblcal truth, Babylon's daughters are returning to mother.
The reformation however is not over. God is desirous that His people fully withdraw from non-Biblical doctrine and teachings, and cleave to His word only as the foundation for revival, misson service, and discipleship.
Truth was progressive. Too much at once would have overwhelmed the church. So slowly, using different people (reformers) at different times, God brought insight, and revelation to His people. A variety of truths became foundation principles of God's new church. The Bible became the basis for teaching and doctrine as opposed to tradition. Baptism by immrsion was established in place of sprinkling. Prayer, heartfelt, faith filled, became the norm as opposd to rote repetition. Holy living and walking the talk by the power of the Holy Spirit...keeping God's commandments...seeking to be filled with Christ's righteousness...overcame the prevalence of vice and sin. Freedom of religion as opposed to forced ritualism ..etc etc. Protestantism was God's movement for the reformation of God's church...the problem however was that each reformer refused further light. So what we ended up with was denominations whose roots were founded in truth, but which languished and made no progress toward complete withdrawal from papal error, retaining Sunday as a religious institutionally enforced day of rest for example among others. Today, these denominations are reversing what God had begun. Returning to Rome and introducing doctrines foreign to Biblcal truth, Babylon's daughters are returning to mother.
The reformation however is not over. God is desirous that His people fully withdraw from non-Biblical doctrine and teachings, and cleave to His word only as the foundation for revival, misson service, and discipleship.
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Member
The church is the Body of Christ regardless of denomination. It is not different denominations that grieves God. It is sin and man's choice to reject Jesus.;
Member
No, I think that it just shows how carnal we can truly be.
I Corinthians 3:1-6
1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3) For ye are carnal: for whereas there is envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4) For as one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal.
5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
I really don't see a real problem with different denomination (such as B-A-C mentioned) as long as they put the Father and Jesus Christ first. But when we don't we forget we are called to unity in Christ, Ephesians 4:13; Psalms 133. Like I heard a pastor telling a story, " two little boy where talking to each other and the one ask the other can you come to my church this Sunday? The other boy said I can't I belong to another abomination."
Member
The time is coming that the only denominations are those who have accepted the mark of the beast and are worshiping according to the government dictates. They are the daughters of the Mother, Babylon the Great. Because they have left the truth, they have become harlots in the same character as their mother from whom they originally came. This will leave only a united movement who resist the majority traditions and pressures of the NWO, If they were at any stage a denomination, it has long been annulled by government decree due to their practicing their religion according to the Bible, and the Bible only. Teaching the true gospel, they will be accused of hate speech, hated of all nations for Christ's sake, and be considered the execration of society.Accused of being the cause of God's judgments falling upon the earth, they will in the end be sentenced to death. This is they who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.(Revel. 12:17; 14:12) They are the only ones patiently waiting for Christ's coming. And the only ones to be translated when He appears in glory.
They are united in the cause for truth, in the preaching of truth in the power of the Holy Spirit, in the living of truth by their living faith in the grace of God. One with Jesus and the Father, empowered by the Spirit of God, they love one another and their chief priority in life is to see as many people as possible come out of Babylon into a saving relationship with Christ.
They have a Truth they know is not to be compromised, and with courage and selfless love for lost souls, they repudiate everything not in harmony with that Truth.
Soon "let us be united" will be the rallying cry of the majority. And unite they will, but under a banner of error and deception.
Beware of false calls to unity. Have a look at Matthew 24:4-9. Note that up to the first part of verse 7, the world is in utter disarray. Wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. This has been the state of this world since Cain slew Abel. Conflict has been the one constant throughout human history. But note that in verse 9 there is a major shift. We see the nations of the world united for the very first time...united against the church! But let us pause a little and also consider Revelation 13:3...all the world wondered after the beast.... 8: and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship....14: and deceiveth them that dwell upon the earth...The whole world is going to be deceived into false worship. This will not be Islam. Babylon the Great is a symbol of the Roman Catholic Church. The world will be deceived into worshiping according to Roman tradition; they will believe they are worshiping according to the truth, for they are deceived. Thus the final great conflict of the ages is not between atheism and theism, but will be between two brothers, one worshiping according to truth and revelation, the other according to tradition and occultic and demonic new age philosophy. An end time repeat of Cain and Abel. Our allegiances are not about denominations but about truth and obedience to the commandments of God as opposed to the commandments of men.
The coming separation of Christianity under the aegis of the false prophet is the separation we ought to be more concerned about. For then there will be only two sides. How do you know you wont be deceived along with the rest of the world? How do you know you aren't already deceived and ripe picking for the coming NWO? What is it about your beliefs and faith that makes you different from the vast majority of Christianity who will take the side of the Antichrist and worship the beast and his image?
They are united in the cause for truth, in the preaching of truth in the power of the Holy Spirit, in the living of truth by their living faith in the grace of God. One with Jesus and the Father, empowered by the Spirit of God, they love one another and their chief priority in life is to see as many people as possible come out of Babylon into a saving relationship with Christ.
They have a Truth they know is not to be compromised, and with courage and selfless love for lost souls, they repudiate everything not in harmony with that Truth.
Soon "let us be united" will be the rallying cry of the majority. And unite they will, but under a banner of error and deception.
Beware of false calls to unity. Have a look at Matthew 24:4-9. Note that up to the first part of verse 7, the world is in utter disarray. Wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. This has been the state of this world since Cain slew Abel. Conflict has been the one constant throughout human history. But note that in verse 9 there is a major shift. We see the nations of the world united for the very first time...united against the church! But let us pause a little and also consider Revelation 13:3...all the world wondered after the beast.... 8: and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship....14: and deceiveth them that dwell upon the earth...The whole world is going to be deceived into false worship. This will not be Islam. Babylon the Great is a symbol of the Roman Catholic Church. The world will be deceived into worshiping according to Roman tradition; they will believe they are worshiping according to the truth, for they are deceived. Thus the final great conflict of the ages is not between atheism and theism, but will be between two brothers, one worshiping according to truth and revelation, the other according to tradition and occultic and demonic new age philosophy. An end time repeat of Cain and Abel. Our allegiances are not about denominations but about truth and obedience to the commandments of God as opposed to the commandments of men.
The coming separation of Christianity under the aegis of the false prophet is the separation we ought to be more concerned about. For then there will be only two sides. How do you know you wont be deceived along with the rest of the world? How do you know you aren't already deceived and ripe picking for the coming NWO? What is it about your beliefs and faith that makes you different from the vast majority of Christianity who will take the side of the Antichrist and worship the beast and his image?
Member
Religion in itself is man made, I do not believe God is concerned with the denomination to which people belong. The only thing that matters is a person's individual faith and belief in God because no two people will have the exact same faith, regardless of whether they belong to the same denomination. This is why I do not think any denomination can be called 'wrong', 'evil', 'from Satan' or any other type of categorisation. This is also why there is no one true 'denomination' and you are not a 'true Christian' depending upon the denomination to which you belong, it comes down to the individual.
Controversially, this is also why I am in the process of deciding upon whether or not I think members of other 'religions' e.g. Muslims can enter heaven - at the moment I am leaning towards yes, they can.
Controversially, this is also why I am in the process of deciding upon whether or not I think members of other 'religions' e.g. Muslims can enter heaven - at the moment I am leaning towards yes, they can.
Member
Many times we try to arrive at the truth by examining what is wrong. Instead, we should focus on Christ and then what is right and wrong will become obvious.
For most of my Christian and non-Christian life, the religious world to me was separated into "Christian and non-Christian". The Christian world was separated into denominations, and non-denominations. But then after my eyes were opened, I saw that there was such a thing as "the true church", and it exists outside of the realm of denominations and non-denominations.
According to Paul's teachings, there are two kinds of Christians: spiritual ones and carnal ones. Of the spiritual ones, there are both enlightened and unenlightened people regarding denominations. Enlightened spiritual ones may be in denominations but they don't follow the denomination and their conscience bears witness that they should not be there. Unenlightened spiritual ones may be in the denomination but not follow it. Carnal ones may be in the denominations and follow the denomination.
There is no one true denomination does not mean all denominations are right, it means all denominations are wrong. There is only one true church however, if there is no true church, there is no true salvation or true Savior. Every believer is part of this "one true church". But most believers meet together on the basis of "many false churches". The problem? Most unenlightened spiritual believers, and of course the carnal believers, do not see a problem with this situation - that is, to meet together on the basis of something we are not. This is like being married to one woman for life (having "one true wife"), yet choosing to spend our time (our Sunday mornings) in the houses of many other women. There are boundless metaphors to describe the situation.
Let's consider this verse carefully:
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jesus came in His Father's name. As Christians we come in Christ's name, and through Christ alone we also come in the Father's name. What about denominations? They come in a name other than Christ. Listen to their words carefully, when you meet them, do they speak of Christ, or do they speak of their denomination. Whichever name they love and are joined to, is the name they will like to speak about the most.
We should not aim to bash denominations, neither to find "the perfect church". I don't think either of these things pleases Christ. The goal should be to please Christ, by realizing the situation in which God and non-believers can see one group of people on the Earth identified by Christ's name alone. If there is such a gathering of believers, that is the one we should meet with, because every true believer is already a member of this entity.
For most of my Christian and non-Christian life, the religious world to me was separated into "Christian and non-Christian". The Christian world was separated into denominations, and non-denominations. But then after my eyes were opened, I saw that there was such a thing as "the true church", and it exists outside of the realm of denominations and non-denominations.
According to Paul's teachings, there are two kinds of Christians: spiritual ones and carnal ones. Of the spiritual ones, there are both enlightened and unenlightened people regarding denominations. Enlightened spiritual ones may be in denominations but they don't follow the denomination and their conscience bears witness that they should not be there. Unenlightened spiritual ones may be in the denomination but not follow it. Carnal ones may be in the denominations and follow the denomination.
There is no one true denomination does not mean all denominations are right, it means all denominations are wrong. There is only one true church however, if there is no true church, there is no true salvation or true Savior. Every believer is part of this "one true church". But most believers meet together on the basis of "many false churches". The problem? Most unenlightened spiritual believers, and of course the carnal believers, do not see a problem with this situation - that is, to meet together on the basis of something we are not. This is like being married to one woman for life (having "one true wife"), yet choosing to spend our time (our Sunday mornings) in the houses of many other women. There are boundless metaphors to describe the situation.
Let's consider this verse carefully:
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Jesus came in His Father's name. As Christians we come in Christ's name, and through Christ alone we also come in the Father's name. What about denominations? They come in a name other than Christ. Listen to their words carefully, when you meet them, do they speak of Christ, or do they speak of their denomination. Whichever name they love and are joined to, is the name they will like to speak about the most.
We should not aim to bash denominations, neither to find "the perfect church". I don't think either of these things pleases Christ. The goal should be to please Christ, by realizing the situation in which God and non-believers can see one group of people on the Earth identified by Christ's name alone. If there is such a gathering of believers, that is the one we should meet with, because every true believer is already a member of this entity.
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Member
While I can see your perspective, I somewhat disagree with it. I believe that in His mercy and grace Christ has people in every denomination, and also outside of the denominations, even those who we often denigrate as heretical. God looks upon the heart, not one's church membership. Many I believe are Christ's, not because they belong to a particular denomination, (such as Romanists teach as regarding themselves), but despite it. They are Christ's because they are living up to what light has been shown them. Regardless of where they are in comparison to others.
Member
Though God looks at the heart, the practice is also important. Not forgetting that James 2:16 can be applied in a wider context of believers and how they worship and meet together.
Where they meet affects their ability to serve God, and their spiritual growth, and they miss out on the extra blessing which comes by believers meeting in the name of Christ and none other. It is failing to recognise that once we become believers we don't have to find a church, we are already part of it. The problem is this belief that we must belong to something extra or in addition to the membership in Christ's body that we already have as believers.
Every person that goes to a denomination meets with other believers on a basis of what the denomination stands for, rather than Christ alone. Whether it is the mode of baptism, the practice of speaking in tongues, or keeping of the Sabbath. We find no example in the bible of believers meeting together on any other basis other than belief in Christ.
The word denomination means "to give a name to". What makes a church a denomination is whether or not a group of believers denominate themself (name themselves) something which separates themselves from all the other believers in their local district. It does not mean every believer in an area has to meet with everyone else - meeting in different places with different or exclusive groups of believers is not against Scripture. But what is against Scripture and God's desire is the denomination of Christians under different names. This is basically rebellion.
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True. But it isn't as shallow as you depict it. I can only speak for myself...I go to my particular denomination (though we don't actually categorise ourselves as such but for the purpose of this conversation will refer to my church as a denomination) because I believe doctrine matters. My church, after much study and prayer, for me is the closest to Biblical Christianity doctrinally. Belief in Jesus is fine, we must all have faith, but it is what and how we believe about Jesus, and about ourselves, that is also important.
The Gnostics believed in Christ. But although I may not find an example in the Bible of the Christians not meeting with them, I think I can safely guarantee they didn't. Nor any other sect or heretical offshoot that arose so soon after Paul's departure. Another example, the Roman church in the fifth century was well on the way downhill, but did the true believers meet with them? Hardly, yet both claimed belief in Christ. Doctrine matters.
Member
Denominations exist because they help us to frame what Christian living is about.
The reason we have many is because we do not think alike, we don't have the same background, the same traditions, and we gravitate towards the denomination that show us a clearer picture of what being a Christian is like.
Now that we have established that, I believe firmly that no matter which denomination we hail from. At some point in our life -- if we went through the process of discipleship -- God will grow us, so that our dependence on the doctrinal foothold of our denomination is slowly replaced with the realization and capacity expansion that is so distinctly coming from Him and Him alone.
And in the end, we may or may not leave our denomination when it comes to the place where we serve, but we are no longer confined by it, rather people that we minister to will only see us as an 'icon' of Christ. In a sense, the denomination becomes sort of like our alma mater, when we graduate from college into the real world.
The reason we have many is because we do not think alike, we don't have the same background, the same traditions, and we gravitate towards the denomination that show us a clearer picture of what being a Christian is like.
Now that we have established that, I believe firmly that no matter which denomination we hail from. At some point in our life -- if we went through the process of discipleship -- God will grow us, so that our dependence on the doctrinal foothold of our denomination is slowly replaced with the realization and capacity expansion that is so distinctly coming from Him and Him alone.
And in the end, we may or may not leave our denomination when it comes to the place where we serve, but we are no longer confined by it, rather people that we minister to will only see us as an 'icon' of Christ. In a sense, the denomination becomes sort of like our alma mater, when we graduate from college into the real world.
Member
Christ is not divided. Paul says this plainly in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13. How does this happen? I imagine Martin Luther and John Wesley would be appalled at the idea of a "denomination" being named after them (Methodists and Lutherans being two of my favorite groups of Christians, by the way.) And "Non-denominational" is really just a name for another denominational category. The non-denominational denomination, if you will. Many have attributed the Roman Catholic church as the agency the anti-Christ will come through.
Identifying yourself with one of these groups doesn't make you a Christian. And no matter which one you may congregate with, there are bound to be numerous members or visitors present who will need a great deal of nurturing and tutoring in Christ. So, if you seek to edify others in Christ, you can probably always find those who will need it regardless of what church you are going. I would say that this attitude could even be carried into a Mormon or LDS church if you were willing to overlook the ritual in search of true opportunities to be a vessel of God's love.
Membership to a church body isn't a prerequisite to Christian faith. But if you believe in Jesus you will inevitably fellowship and share that faith with others who also are in Him. If you are in Christ then you are the church, and your membership is forever! IMO, a lot of the problems with "leadership" that we see in the "church" nowadays is the result of institutions that train people to pastor, etc. Preaching the Word of God is not a career (and if it is, don't expect to get paid for it!) These institutions can't qualify a man to take this position. God alone can make such an appointment.
Identifying yourself with one of these groups doesn't make you a Christian. And no matter which one you may congregate with, there are bound to be numerous members or visitors present who will need a great deal of nurturing and tutoring in Christ. So, if you seek to edify others in Christ, you can probably always find those who will need it regardless of what church you are going. I would say that this attitude could even be carried into a Mormon or LDS church if you were willing to overlook the ritual in search of true opportunities to be a vessel of God's love.
Membership to a church body isn't a prerequisite to Christian faith. But if you believe in Jesus you will inevitably fellowship and share that faith with others who also are in Him. If you are in Christ then you are the church, and your membership is forever! IMO, a lot of the problems with "leadership" that we see in the "church" nowadays is the result of institutions that train people to pastor, etc. Preaching the Word of God is not a career (and if it is, don't expect to get paid for it!) These institutions can't qualify a man to take this position. God alone can make such an appointment.
Member
In the fifth Century one was either Catholic or Gnostic.
The idea that they were 'bible believing Christians' who professed what is now identified as protestant is historically untrue. Until the 1500s, there were only Gnostic spinoffs. There was a resurgence of Gnosticism in western Europe from 1200-1500. They believed, like the Gnostics had, that the world was evil. They were anti-sacramental as a result. The sacraments were considered natural elements through which God works, but Gnosticism believes the natural world is evil, thus invalidating sacraments.
The idea was eventually incorporated into non-liturgical protestantism (Calvinism, Anabaptists, etc) as opposed to liturgical protestantism - Anglicanism, Lutheranism, etc.