Yes, I am questioning the Judeo-Christian Bible in the 21st Century ......

[BrotherDThomas]

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I have been a Christina for about 10 years, and I have never joined a division of Christianity, because that in and of itself determines that every denomination can not be correct at the same time with the true words of Jesus the Christ if said divisions contradict each other.. Therefore, that is my dilemma. . Therefore, after reading the Judeo-Christian Bible, and when running across certain narratives and passages, they just don't make any sense whatsoever or would put me in jail if I followed certain ones. My most haunting passage is the following: “EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)". Therefore, without question, this means that every word of the inspired by Jesus in being Yahweh God incarnate is to be followed or accepted, in the Old and New Testaments, period.

I am truly here to engage with other Christians to take my questioning of the Bible to heart where I want to try and believe in it when using actual biblical facts with no spin doctoring, but in using supported Biblical vouchsafing instead of personal opinions to certain biblical axioms.

I will most certainly share the Talk Jesus community on other platforms, praise!

Thank you.

 

[Andyindauk]

Hi Thomas,

I'm reading your post and I'm thinking to myself, this guy needs proof, irrefutable proof of everything. Sorry mate but that's not how it works. A basic tenent of Christianity is faith,

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1 NIV

God does not feel the need to prove the veracity of the Bible to the likes of you or I any more than He needs to prove His existence to an unbeliever. I know that goes against everything we have been taught at school, we are told to question everything. Take science for example, our knowledge of science is flawed and only by questioning do we expose and correct those flaws. That's not the case with God's holy word, it is perfect and we need to accept that in faith and believe that. No, we don't fully understand everything in it iand so we need to study it and try and get our heads around some of the passages and concepts and ideas aided and abetted by the Holy Spirit.

If you have no faith you will never get to know God. Some of the the sadducees, Jesus's critics, tried that one on -
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.” He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.Matthew 12:38‭-‬41 NIV

Now read the rest of Hebrews chapter 11. You'll understand just how important your faith is to God and without it He cannot be a part of you. Another example is your namesake in John 20:24-29.

So unlike a discovery reported in a scientific journal where you question the experiments, the results and the interpretation of the results and only then do you give it any credence. Well with the Bible you need to accept that it is iGod inspired and ask Him with the help of the Holy Spirit for the wisdom to understand it.

The same goes for other aspects of your walk with God. You need to believe and accept and then start from there and begin a one-to-one relationship with God through prayer, praise and adoration.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[Hekuran]

Welcome to TalkJesus @BrotherDThomas

It's always good to hear of someone seeking truth in the Bible, being persistent in asking the hard questions.

It's very important to spend some time considering how the Bible conveys truth.

God chose not to give us a textbook or a system of spiritual truths; he has given us a story which stretches from the beginning of the world.

To fully appreciate any part of the Bible we need to understand where it fits in the whole story, who wrote it, who were they writing to, and why.

Try for example the Book of Jonah. If we are reading only for axiomatic truths, we won't find much. As straight history, it doesn't push the plot of the Bible forward greatly. But when we read it as a satire on the attitudes of the day, the riches of the text are revealed.

Do you think you could outline the basic plot of the Bible and some of the major themes of the story?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

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I have been a Christina for about 10 years, and I have never joined a division of Christianity, because that in and of itself determines that every denomination can not be correct at the same time with the true words of Jesus the Christ if said divisions contradict each other.. Therefore, that is my dilemma. . Therefore, after reading the Judeo-Christian Bible, and when running across certain narratives and passages, they just don't make any sense whatsoever or would put me in jail if I followed certain ones. My most haunting passage is the following: “EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)". Therefore, without question, this means that every word of the inspired by Jesus in being Yahweh God incarnate is to be followed or accepted, in the Old and New Testaments, period.

I am truly here to engage with other Christians to take my questioning of the Bible to heart where I want to try and believe in it when using actual biblical facts with no spin doctoring, but in using supported Biblical vouchsafing instead of personal opinions to certain biblical axioms.

I will most certainly share the Talk Jesus community on other platforms, praise!

Thank you.

So under what set of circumstances do you believe that you're actually a Born Again Christian, and not just another "Religious critic"????

 

[BrotherDThomas]

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To the membership within this thread,

Thank you all for addressing my problems with the Judeo-Christian Bible after reading it. Yes, we all know of the good parts of Jesus’ inspired words within the scriptures, but also included in the whole Bible are very disturbing parts as well that are also the inspired words of Jesus, and there lies the difficulty for me in these specific passages and narratives in question.

I am usually banned from religious forums like this one because of my questions posed to the membership in my hopes to still being a Christian after doing so. It is truly frustrating for Jesus' inspired words to state very bothersome passages and narratives, and we're to hold Him in esteem as being ever loving and forgiving? I am hoping that this forum will be different in entertaining the concept of addressing ALL of the Judeo-Christian Bible in the disturbing parts as well in being the true words that are inspired by Jesus.



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[BrotherDThomas]

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Andyindauk


YOUR QUOTE IN POST #2: “Take science for example, our knowledge of science is flawed and only by questioning do we expose and correct those flaws. That's not the case with God's holy word, it is perfect and we need to accept that in faith and believe that.”

There lies one of the rubs, some of the inspired words of Jesus within the scriptures is frightening to say the least, and then to add insult to injury, we’re to accept it and believe in it? Ouch!


YOUR QUOTE IN SEEMINGLY AGREEING THERE ARE MANY CONTRADICTING DIVISIONS OF THE FATIH: “So unlike a discovery reported in a scientific journal where you question the experiments, the results and the interpretation of the results and only then do you give it any credence. Well, with the Bible you need to accept that it is iGod inspired and ask Him with the help of the Holy Spirit for the wisdom to understand it.”

The key words that our troubling for me in your quote above is that one is to ask Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, the wisdom to understand specific biblical passages and narratives, of which, one can have many assumed “understandings” in this genre of alleged understanding. Once again there are many different and contradicting divisions of the faith all proposing that they have the "correct understanding," where logically only one can have it! Therefore, what division of Christianity does one pick if they want to join one of the many denominations in the name of Jesus that is truly correct?!


Furthermore, when you tell me to seek wisdom to understand specific passages and narratives in prayer with Jesus, how does one godly usurp the following passage when doing so? "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation, for the prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)


Andyindauk, thank you for your time.



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[BrotherDThomas]

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Hekuran,

Thank you for your welcome.

YOUR QUOTE IN POST #3: “But when we read it as a satire on the attitudes of the day, the riches of the text are revealed.”

With all due respect, it is hard for me to put the scriptures into satire that subjectively shows disrespect towards Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate. In essence, satire should be the last thing mentioned when trying to understand Jesus’ truly inspired words.


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[BrotherDThomas]

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Bob Carabbio,

YOUR QUOTE IN POST #4: "So under what set of circumstances do you believe that you're actually a Born Again Christian, and not just another "Religious critic"????"

The "born again scheme" is not in my inventory of biblical propositions, because for the most part, it is a Protestant position and I do not follow any division of the faith as explained in my initial post.

As per your statement in possibly calling me a Religious Critic, then if asking serious disturbing questions relative to the Judeo-Christian Bible is a critic, then to you, so be it, of which seemingly is an easy way out for you not to address said disturbing passages and narratives. I address the Bible on a whole, and not cherry pick just the good parts, whereas is this wrong on the true understanding of the scriptures? Subjectively, no it is not. "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

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[Bob Carabbio]

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Bob Carabbio,

YOUR QUOTE IN POST #4: "So under what set of circumstances do you believe that you're actually a Born Again Christian, and not just another "Religious critic"????"

The "born again scheme" is not in my inventory of biblical propositions,

Then why do you classify yourself as a "Christian" for the last 10 years???

 

[Reba1]

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To the membership within this thread,

Thank you all for addressing my problems with the Judeo-Christian Bible after reading it. Yes, we all know of the good parts of Jesus’ inspired words within the scriptures, but also included in the whole Bible are very disturbing parts as well that are also the inspired words of Jesus, and there lies the difficulty for me in these specific passages and narratives in question.

I am usually banned from religious forums like this one because of my questions posed to the membership in my hopes to still being a Christian after doing so. It is truly frustrating for Jesus' inspired words to state very bothersome passages and narratives, and we're to hold Him in esteem as being ever loving and forgiving? I am hoping that this forum will be different in entertaining the concept of addressing ALL of the Judeo-Christian Bible in the disturbing parts as well in being the true words that are inspired by Jesus.



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For way to many years folks have only told of one side of God . As if He is some kink of soft lovable teddy bear. God is a jealous, He gets angry, He smote lots of folks whole families.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Hekuran]

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Hekuran,

Thank you for your welcome.

YOUR QUOTE IN POST #3: “But when we read it as a satire on the attitudes of the day, the riches of the text are revealed.”

With all due respect, it is hard for me to put the scriptures into satire that subjectively shows disrespect towards Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate. In essence, satire should be the last thing mentioned when trying to understand Jesus’ truly inspired words.


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@BrotherDThomas

I didn't mean read the whole Bible as satire, I was referring to the book of Jonah. Jonah is a very sharp critique of attitudes of the day.

AgIn, if your understanding of truth and God-inspired is limited to logical proposition, reading the Bible will be a dry and confusing experience.

If you are willing to take it as an incredibly complex collection of writings that unite in telling a single coherent story of God's work in the world, you're beginning an endless discovery of riches.

 

[BrotherDThomas]

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Bob Carabbio,


YOUR FOLLOWUP QUOTE REGARDING THE TERM "BORN AGAIN" : "Then why do you classify yourself as a "Christian" for the last 10 years???"

A heads up on the "Born Again" Christian historicity, this phrase is relative to people who have accepted Jesus as their Savior in a spiritual rebirth, whereas I had already accepted Jesus in this vein in the first place and don’t need to be reborn to it. In other words, I made the correct decision at the onset to not slap Jesus in the face in this respect.

Since the “Born Again” concept is mostly followed by Protestants, therefore, of which division of this faith are you a member? Are you a Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, or? And like I said regarding the divisions of the faith, how are you sure you have the correct one that Jesus aspires too?




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[Reba1]

The games some folks play

 

[BrotherDThomas]

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Hekuran


YOUR SEEMINGLY DISRESPECTFUL QUOTE IN YOUR POST #11: "I didn't mean read the whole Bible as satire, I was referring to the book of Jonah. Jonah is a very sharp critique of attitudes of the day."

In this statement of yours, whether you state you didn't mean the whole Bible as satire, but only the book of Jonah in this instance, is still reflecting disdain towards a "part of the Bible" in being satirical, where it is like one rotten apple can spoil the bunch concept!



YOUR QUOTE OF NOT USING LOGIC IN READING THE BIBLE: "AgIn, if your understanding of truth and God-inspired is limited to logical proposition, reading the Bible will be a dry and confusing experience."

If your statement above was actually followed, it is self-defeating in the true understanding of the Judea-Christian Bible! Whereas Jesus' inspired words disagree with you forthwith in actually using logical deductions:

1. "Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature." (1 Corinthians 14:20)

2. "Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another." (Ephesians 4:25)

Therefore, to be truthful about the Judeo-Christian Bible, I will accept irrefutable logical deductions it in its true stated form as written without any Satanic spin doctoring whatsoever!



YOUR QUOTE: "If you are willing to take it as an incredibly complex collection of writings that unite in telling a single coherent story of God's work in the world, ....."

Here is another stated problem, and the reason that I am here to question the Bible and to try and make sense of it, where in many situations it does not promote a single coherent story of Jesus' work, but in turn, it is contradicting to the concept of Jesus' work!


Thank you for your time.


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[Hekuran]

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Hekuran


YOUR SEEMINGLY DISRESPECTFUL QUOTE IN YOUR POST #11: "I didn't mean read the whole Bible as satire, I was referring to the book of Jonah. Jonah is a very sharp critique of attitudes of the day."

In this statement of yours, whether you state you didn't mean the whole Bible as satire, but only the book of Jonah in this instance, is still reflecting disdain towards a "part of the Bible" in being satirical, where it is like one rotten apple can spoil the bunch concept!



YOUR QUOTE OF NOT USING LOGIC IN READING THE BIBLE: "AgIn, if your understanding of truth and God-inspired is limited to logical proposition, reading the Bible will be a dry and confusing experience."

If your statement above was actually followed, it is self-defeating in the true understanding of the Judea-Christian Bible! Whereas Jesus' inspired words disagree with you forthwith in actually using logical deductions:

1. "Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature." (1 Corinthians 14:20)

2. "Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another." (Ephesians 4:25)

Therefore, to be truthful about the Judeo-Christian Bible, I will accept irrefutable logical deductions it in its true stated form as written without any Satanic spin doctoring whatsoever!



YOUR QUOTE: "If you are willing to take it as an incredibly complex collection of writings that unite in telling a single coherent story of God's work in the world, ....."

Here is another stated problem, and the reason that I am here to question the Bible and to try and make sense of it, where in many situations it does not promote a single coherent story of Jesus' work, but in turn, it is contradicting to the concept of Jesus' work!


Thank you for your time.


.

I didn't say don't use logic, just that if you are limited to logical deduction in reading the Bible, you will shortly arrive at a dead end. Truth is never less than logical, but anything meaningful (love, beauty, wonder and grace) are more than mere logic.

If God wanted to communicate with us primarily in logic, he would have given us a work of systematic theology.

But instead he chose to give us a story.

 

[BrotherDThomas]

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Hekuran,

YOUR CONTRADICTING QUOTE: “I didn't say don't use logic, just that if you are limited to logical deduction in reading the Bible, you will shortly arrive at a dead end. Truth is never less than logical, but anything meaningful (love, beauty, wonder and grace) are more than mere logic.”

With specificity you stated in your post #11 the following: “AgIn, if your understanding of truth and God-inspired is limited to logical proposition, reading the Bible will be a dry and confusing experience.”

Therefore, IN FACT if I read the Judeo-Christian Bible with logical deductions, you say I will arrive not only at a DEAD END, but the fact that you also stated in using logic it will be a dry and confusing experience, therefore in essence, you DID SAY not to use logical deductions!!!

Again, Jesus’ inspired words state that we are to use logic in reading the Bible in 1 Corinthians 14:20 and Ephesians 4:25, so who do I believe, you in contradicting yourself, and as a mere mortal born in sin, or Jesus’ inspired words in the aforementioned passages?!


Furthermore, you didn’t address my followup response to you in you proposing the Bible is to be taken satirically in the book of Jonah and the ramifications thereof that I had shown you. Furthermore, my answer to you regarding that you stated that the complex collection of writings are to unite in telling a single coherent story of God's work in the world, where in many situations in the Bible it does not promote a single coherent story of Jesus' work, but in turn, it is contradicting to the concept of Jesus' work!


With all due respect, subjectively, you are adding more fuel to the fire against myself trying in vain to understand the Judeo-Christian Bible in being what many Christians want it to be, but in reading it as written, it is not. HELP!


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[Gregoryp]

So let me try and understand the premise of this post. Out of the millions of people who read, study and immerse themselves in the written word of Christ, your one of the few who doubt the whole foundation of christianity? Because if the written word is even a little incorrect, there goes the concept of Jesus and our God. So what are you offering as an alternative?

 

[Hekuran]

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Hekuran,

YOUR CONTRADICTING QUOTE: “I didn't say don't use logic, just that if you are limited to logical deduction in reading the Bible, you will shortly arrive at a dead end. Truth is never less than logical, but anything meaningful (love, beauty, wonder and grace) are more than mere logic.”

With specificity you stated in your post #11 the following: “AgIn, if your understanding of truth and God-inspired is limited to logical proposition, reading the Bible will be a dry and confusing experience.”

Therefore, IN FACT if I read the Judeo-Christian Bible with logical deductions, you say I will arrive not only at a DEAD END, but the fact that you also stated in using logic it will be a dry and confusing experience, therefore in essence, you DID SAY not to use logical deductions!!!

Again, Jesus’ inspired words state that we are to use logic in reading the Bible in 1 Corinthians 14:20 and Ephesians 4:25, so who do I believe, you in contradicting yourself, and as a mere mortal born in sin, or Jesus’ inspired words in the aforementioned passages?!


Furthermore, you didn’t address my followup response to you in you proposing the Bible is to be taken satirically in the book of Jonah and the ramifications thereof that I had shown you. Furthermore, my answer to you regarding that you stated that the complex collection of writings are to unite in telling a single coherent story of God's work in the world, where in many situations in the Bible it does not promote a single coherent story of Jesus' work, but in turn, it is contradicting to the concept of Jesus' work!


With all due respect, subjectively, you are adding more fuel to the fire against myself trying in vain to understand the Judeo-Christian Bible in being what many Christians want it to be, but in reading it as written, it is not. HELP!


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Your logic here is poor. I said in the earlier post "limited to logical deductions". You quoted me correctly, but clearly overlooked what I actually said.

My later post is entirely consistent with the earlier one.

 

[complete]

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I have been a Christina for about 10 years, and I have never joined a division of Christianity, because that in and of itself determines that every denomination can not be correct at the same time with the true words of Jesus the Christ if said divisions contradict each other.. Therefore, that is my dilemma. .
Therefore, after reading the Judeo-Christian Bible, and when running across certain narratives and passages, they just don't make any sense whatsoever or would put me in jail if I followed certain ones. My most haunting passage is the following: “EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)". Therefore, without question, this means that every word of the inspired by Jesus in being Yahweh God incarnate is to be followed or accepted, in the Old and New Testaments, period.

I am truly here to engage with other Christians to take my questioning of the Bible to heart where I want to try and believe in it when using actual biblical facts with no spin doctoring, but in using supported Biblical vouchsafing instead of personal opinions to certain biblical axioms.

I will most certainly share the Talk Jesus community on other platforms, praise!

Thank you.

Hello @BrotherDThomas,

I don't understand why you call the Bible, the ' Judeo-Christian Bible', as though there were another. Surely there is only one written Word of God, although many modern versions have been created.

If you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, then your object surely is to know God: by learning just what He has accomplished through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and what that means for you, as one who has been saved by His grace.

The whole of the Old Testament Scriptures concern the Lord Jesus Christ in type and shadow, and in prophecy and praise: and if your object isn't to find Him in those Scriptures, then you are not allowing them to fulfill their object.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Andyindauk]

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Andyindauk


Furthermore, when you tell me to seek wisdom to understand specific passages and narratives in prayer with Jesus, how does one godly usurp the following passage when doing so? "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation, for the prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

Andyindauk, thank you for your time.

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Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your considered reply.

In support of your position you quote a verse that basically sums up what I'm saying. Peter is saying in this passage that Old Testament prophets weren't just expressing their own opinions (private interpretation), rather they spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, almost taking down dictation from the Holy Spirit. Then read the next verse-

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:21 NIV

Does that clarify?

You mentioned earlier in your reply that you don't like some of the things that Jesus said, so you don't read them. Does that not sound a bit like not liking the weather forecast and going out in T-shirt and shorts?

The overall is that God and Jesus are perfection and when Perfection comes up against imperfection it will not go well for imperfection and sin. Jesus warned us about that in graphic details in parables like -

Matthew 13:24-30 (wheat and tares), Matthew 25:31-46 (sheep and goats) Luke 29:9-19 (husbandman)

This is not God's or Jesus's fault, it's Satan's fault for introducing sin and our fault for following him. It was God through Jesus that warned us of our inevitable fate and it was God through Jesus that gave us the escape chute, acceptance and following Jesus and so being saved from that inevitable fate. The cost to God was horrendous but He was prepared to pay that cost because He loves you and I so very much He couldn't bear to see us suffer that fate.

You mentioned something about not wanting to go to a church because they have differing views on various issues on the application of scriptural teachings. The reason that is so is that none of them are perfect and every single one of them has room for improvement but that's not a valid reason to shun them altogether. For example I don't agree with the Anglican and Methodist churches views on baptism but I've gladly been to services of both churches. I've heard it said before that if you do find a perfect church, don't go because you'll only make it imperfect!

Hope that gives you some food for thought. God bless.