Works revisited

[B-A-C]

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

A great verse... many church doctrines are built on this. But while we can't do any "works" to get saved, is works required
of us after we are saved. I purposely said "required". The very next verse after the two verses above says...

Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

So OK, I can't do any works to initially get saved, but what about after I am saved? Are works required?

Matt 25:14; "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16; "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17; "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18; "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19; "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20; "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22; "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now many Christians are quick to say.. you aren't saved by works, works are just evidence that you are saved... well OK... but even if this is true, it seems work are required.

In the parable of the talents above, it would seem that using the gifts God gave you is a requirement. You can't just take what God has given you and "bury it in the sand" so to speak.

But OK... that's just one parable, is there anything else similar?

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34; "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:35; 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Matt 25:36; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Matt 25:37; "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Matt 25:38; 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Matt 25:39; 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Matt 25:40; "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It seems those who never give to the hungry, clothe the needy, visit the sick, and give to the poor go into eternal punishment.
Are we absolutely sure works are not required?

OK.. well thats only two parables, is there anything else that says works is required?
I realize this flies in the face of "we aren't saved by works". Or rather, we aren't saved if we do no works after we are saved.
I suspect the reason many Calvinists have a problem with this, is because now it puts part of your salvation on you.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

The obvious answer here seems to be.. "no!"

Jas 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16; and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18; But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Verse 24 is a hard verse for some people to accept, but here it is.

Jas 2:25; In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

OK... so that's three passages, is there anything else that says works is required? To be continued....

 

[B-A-C]

Why are we under the impression that we aren't supposed to do any works, are works are a bad thing, or even Jesus doesn't want us to do any works?

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
John 9:4; "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 14:12; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

1 Tim 2:9; Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1 Tim 6:17; Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
1 Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
1 Tim 6:19; storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

Again I ask... are no works required?

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

In Romans 3, and Galatians 3, doesn't Paul say over and over we aren't saved by works?

Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:27; Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Gal 2:16; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:2; This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:5; So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:10; For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

It's true, he does seem to say that... but upon closer inspection of the verses above, I see every single verse has a qualifier.
It doesn't say "no works at all". It says "works OF THE LAW". Re-read the verses above and see how many times it says, "works of the law".
It says it in every single verse above.

The thing that concerns me here is... some churches have preached any works at all are a bad thing.
Lets don't pray for people - thats a work. Lets don't do Bible studies - that's a work.
Lets don't do evangelizing - that's a work. Lets don't give to the needy - that's a work.
In fact.. lets make sure we don't do anything at all for God.

Is this really what the Bible says? I don't think so.

... to be continued ...

 

[Curtis]

Faith without works is dead. Meaning if we say we have faith, but there are no works connected to our faith, then our faith is dead. Or in other words we did not have true faith. If I am saved by grace through faith, then my faith gave me access to the grace by which I am saved. A born again person through his faith had works by the fact that God gave them a new heart. It is always God who performs our works of our faith because of our faith in him. True faith always has works connected to it because it is God himself who is working through that person.

 

[B-A-C]

It is always God who performs our works of our faith because of our faith in him. True faith always has works connected to it because it is God himself who is working through that person.

So in other word's it's God's fault the third servant didn't make a profit? It's God's fault he is a wicked and lazy servant?

I don't really see this in scripture anywhere, in fact generally I see just the opposite.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’
Luke 13:8; And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Now why would Jesus come expecting to see fruit on this tree? It seems if He was the one causing it NOT to bear fruit, He wouldn't expect any fruit.
In fact... He has been expecting this tree to bear fruit for three years. Why would He expect that? Yet the tree never did.
Jesus goes a few steps further and says... water it, fertilize it, and we'll see if it bears fruit next year.
Just because Jesus is watering and fertilizing you is no guarantee that you will bear fruit.
If it bears fruit... great. But if not, chop it down and throw it into the fire.

If the tree doesn't bear fruit, is it Jesus's fault?

 

[Curtis]

So in other word's it's God's fault the third servant didn't make a profit? It's God's fault he is a wicked and lazy servant?

I don't really see this in scripture anywhere, in fact generally I see just the opposite.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’
Luke 13:8; And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Now why would Jesus come expecting to see fruit on this tree? It seems if He was the one causing it NOT to bear fruit, He wouldn't expect any fruit.
In fact... He has been expecting this tree to bear fruit for three years. Why would He expect that? Yet the tree never did.
Jesus goes a few steps further and says... water it, fertilize it, and we'll see if it bears fruit next year.
Just because Jesus is watering and fertilizing you is no guarantee that you will bear fruit.
If it bears fruit... great. But if not, chop it down and throw it into the fire.

If the tree doesn't bear fruit, is it Jesus's fault?

Do not forget if we do not understand the parable of the "sower" then we will NOT be able to understand any parable in scripture. Jesus said....

Mar 4:13 And He said to them, Do you not discern and understand this parable? How then is it possible for you to discern and understand all the parables?

The fruit Jesus is looking for is fruit unto "salvation" which is the very first fruit the Word of God produces in any person who has kept it his Word in themselves long enough.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Only one out of the four people produced fruit unto salvation in the parable of the sower.

It is never Jesus's fault if a person never produces fruit, it is because only "faith" causes the Word of God to work on their behalf.
The "works" Jesus did in his life was his Father working through him, as Jesus said, "I can of my own self do nothing"

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

No body can bear the fruit of the Spirit unless they are first born of the Spirit.

 

[Dave M]

Great Post BAC as I see the distorted version of Grace is widespread on social media. Seems no one wants to do anything they just want to keep living the same way they always have and be saved and get to go to heaven.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus goes a few steps further and says... water it, fertilize it, and we'll see if it bears fruit next year.
Just because Jesus is watering and fertilizing you is no guarantee that you will bear fruit.

This is exactly what happens in many in Churches today. They endure for a little while and then because of persecutions, the lusts of other things, the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of this world they fall away.
In times of hardships most will fall away, but to the man or woman who keeps, and protects the seed of the Word of God in them long enough, it will produce its fruit.
Then you have many who hear the word, but because they do not understand it, Satan steals the word from within them. They never fall away, but never get saved either. These will have to be cut down, because they are fruitless.

 

[B-A-C]

Seeds

There was a study of sorts on sower (one of many) not long ago.

I think the thing people miss here, is 3 out of 4 of the "soil types", actually produced something.
The first type never grew at all.
Some of it died out after a while.
Some of it got choked out by weeds and worries,
Some of it actually even bore fruit, but it never reached maturity.
Finally, you had the good fruit.

Again, I wonder if it was Jesus fault some of the soil never produced?

 

[Curtis]

Seeds

There was a study of sorts on sower (one of many) not long ago.

I think the thing people miss here, is 3 out of 4 of the "soil types", actually produced something.
The first type never grew at all.
Some of it died out after a while.
Some of it got choked out by weeds and worries,
Some of it actually even bore fruit, but it never reached maturity.
Finally, you had the good fruit.

Again, I wonder if it was Jesus fault some of the soil never produced?

Does man have any responsibility in protecting the Word in himself?

 

[B-A-C]

1 Tim 6:20; O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—
1 Tim 6:21; which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

2 Tim 1:14; Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
2 Tim 1:15; You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.

2 Pet 3:17; You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

1 Jn 5:21; Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

It seems we do have some responsibility, yes.
But having the Word in you isn't enough.
You have to act on it.

Matt 7:24; “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:25; And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt 7:26; Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt 7:27; The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

James 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

 

[Curtis]

It seems we do have some responsibility, yes.
But having the Word in you isn't enough.
You have to act on it.

If a man has true faith, he will also have works, because the word in him will move him. Jesus (Word of God) could do no mighty works in his own town because of their unbelief.

 

[B-A-C]

If a man has true faith, he will also have works,

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

According to James, it's possible to have faith without works. In fact that's the point of James 2.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

 

[Curtis]

if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Anyone can "say I have faith" but the real acid test to true faith is it also has works. Mental faith is useless.

 

[Curtis]

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Anyone can have works without faith, and anyone can have faith without works, but true faith always has both faith, and works. Works is the proof of true faith.

 

[Curtis]

Simone the "sorcerer" had "faith", and he was "baptized", but he was not saved!!!!

Act 8:9 But there was a man named Simon, who had formerly practiced magic arts in the city
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.


Anyone can go through all the motions, and say they have "faith". That means nothing without works which proves true faith.

Jesus said what will happen to those who have true faith....

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[B-A-C]

Funny how how certain subjects keep coming around... over and over again.

 

[regibassman57]

@B-AC,

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

A great verse... many church doctrines are built on this. But while we can't do any "works" to get saved, is works required
of us after we are saved.

Adam loss his salvation because of his works, though he didn't receive eternal life by his works. There is no difference between believers today and Adam when it comes to receiving life without works initially. There is nothing new under the sun spiritually, and God has not change His requirements for what He holds man accountable "to do." At the beginning it was about obedience, and throughout the generations of nations, it's been about obedience to receive eternal life. After Christ came, those that believe - receives salvation from sin first and given eternal life second. Just as Adam lost eternal life by his works of disobedience, believers today can lose salvation because of their works also. A man's level of works determine their level of faith. A believer's faith can increase or decrease; this is how a believer can become tares in the body of Christ (Mat. 13: 22, 39-42). These believers became "UNFRUITFUL" which shows they had "fruit" at one point and were gathered out of the body of Christ because of their works.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that "diligently seek" him.

Disobedience in works is not seeking God diligently. Seeking God is pursuing Him in obedience to know Him. If a person says the are seeking to know God, but they don't keep his commandments, they are a liar. It takes works to know Christ. A person cannot know Christ by faith alone. It is only through doing what Christ commandments say can we experience His delivering power. It is through the commandments a believer is made free (Joh. 8:31, 32).

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know Jesus, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

As a person "learns" to know Christ, they "learn" to love Christ. Without loving Christ a person will not obtain eternal life; and a person cannot love Christ without keeping His commandments.

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that "LOVE" him?

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and "KEEPS" them, he it is that "LOVES" me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man "LOVES" me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24
He that "DOES NOT LOVE ME" "keeps not" my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Knowing Christ, loving Christ and keeping His commandments "agree in one" and are "one" in Spirit. You cannot have one without the other. Each of these are "REQUIRED" to obtain eternal life and without "any one" of these a man will not obtain eternal life because they do not agree with The Father, The Word/Son or The Holy Ghost.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.