Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

s.i.e. · Jun 18, 2012

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed according to the law almost everything was purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Ok...what is up with the "blood" thing throughout God's story? Throughout the book of Leviticus (Lev 8:22-24), for example, there is blood that needed to be shed. I understand that it was to "cover the sins" and misdoings, but what's up with blood being God's answer, or remedy, for that?

Why blood?

Whether it be the blood of a ram caught in a thicket that gets used for an altar...or His own Son's blood...YHWH seemed to have a mandate or affection for the viscous red stuff.

We've become familiar with this, as Christians...or course...but think about how you react if you see some abberational nightly news story about a local satanist putting a cat on an alter to kill it, drink it's blood, and spread its remaining blood and parts all over the surrounding areas.

It's greusome, violent, twisted, depraved, and reprehensible stuff, if you think about it outside Christianity! Can you imagine how insane the outside world thinks we are, to drink...altogether as a congregation...on any given Sunday?

What was it about God that caused him to require and mandate that kind of quid-pro-quo, of sorts?

In advance: I would love to see some Bible verses that tell us of the "why" behind God's thinking here...but I'm not sure there are any. Still, it's got to be part of one's thinking or questions if you read a book like Leviticus....so, I thought I would ask the question in the Bible Study forum.

thanks

B-A-C · Jun 18, 2012

I suspect it's life vs death.
Life is in the blood. (Gen 9:4)
We all sin, and the wages of sin is death (Rom 3:23, Rom 6:23) So in a way, it's a life for a life.
(Heb 9:14; Heb 9:18)

Boanerges · Jun 19, 2012

B-A-C said:
I suspect it's life vs death.
Life is in the blood. (Gen 9:4)
We all sin, and the wages of sin is death (Rom 3:23, Rom 6:23) So in a way, it's a life for a life.
(Heb 9:14; Heb 9:18)

Exactly. It is justice pure and simple.
As far as what the "outside" or lost world thinks, well they can accept Loves gift or not and the choice has always been theirs. Those who "turn away" because of the mention of blood, honestly, they are just seeking an excuse. Let us be more concerned with what the Lord actually says as opposed to worrying about how the lost might view it.

s.i.e. · Jun 19, 2012

Thanks for your perspective, and the scriptures for this. It helps.

B-A-C said:
So in a way, it's a life for a life.

Boanerges said:
Exactly. It is justice pure and simple

"It's justice".

Ok...but justice for God, is what you're saying here. God "required" it, because it's His kind of justice...for some reason or another. And that justice required shed blood. A life. A sacrifice. Death. Usually...an innocent, unblemished, and unassuming life form. A white lamb. A ram whose horns are stuck. His own Son. Something pure. Something nice. To slaughter.

...and this makes sense to you? This is "okay"? This doesn't raise further questions?

To me, not much about that is pure or simple...

Green Berean · Jun 19, 2012

The Bible is very clear on the matter of sacrifice. The animal sacrifices of the Old Testament were part of the ceremonial requirements placed upon a burgeoning theocratic society by God as a means to approach Him, but those sacrifices were never the point. In the Old Testament Prophets, it's mentioned time and again that sacrifices aren't what He truly desires; one could sacrifice an animal and still be out of favor. Then in Hebrews, the bold statement is made that the blood of bulls and goats could not do anything for sin. The only tangible thing it did was temporarily assuage guilt (indeed, there is no other purpose for the "scapegoat" part of the ceremony).
Jesus died for an entirely different reason than the animals from the Old Testament era. For one thing, Jesus' death resulted in something, which is why it does not need to be repeated. Jesus did not come to earth to show the way, but to be the Way. The animal sacrifices were a cultural education on the significance of what Jesus did.

I often tell my teenagers that the reality of the situation is beyond our mortal understanding; we cannot know just how thoroughly screwed we were. It's not that we're going to die someday, but that we were born into sin; effectively, born into the realm of death. We are a leaky bucket, and our bucket will run dry.
Jesus, He who knew no sin (and therefore would know no death), became sin for us in order to die the death that was our fate. Because He Himself has no sin, then death could not keep a hold on Him, and He was resurrected. Those who partake in that death with Him will share in His life. It's a different sort of Circle of Life than the Lion King intended--accept the life of Jesus by taking up your cross and following Him into death through which you will live as He lives.
The actual mechanics of what happened are similar to the way a zipper works. Take a coat or a jacket and hold the two different sides: they are apart. But the zipper can descend from the top of the collar down to the very bottom of the garment in order to join with the other side. Once it's connected at the very base, then the zipper rises, and as it rises, the two separate halves become whole.
This is why Jesus had to die; if He simply walked among us and returned to Heaven, then the zipper would've only been joined half-way. We would not have been fully reunited with God. Since Jesus descended to the depths of Hell for our sake, then the reunion is full and complete. This is why Jesus will live forever as both man and God. This is why the Holy Spirit who set the top of Mt. Sinai on fire with His presence can indwell man.

Is it justice? Sure. God is holy and just. But as the book of James says, "mercy triumphs over judgment."

B-A-C · Jun 20, 2012

s.i.e. said:
Ok...but justice for God, is what you're saying here. God "required" it, because it's His kind of justice...for some reason or another. And that justice required shed blood. A life. A sacrifice. Death. Usually...an innocent, unblemished, and unassuming life form. A white lamb. A ram whose horns are stuck. His own Son. Something pure. Something nice. To slaughter.

Yet he sent his son to die in our place. Would you die for someone else who did something wrong? Someone who beat up and crucified your only child?
He could have let us all go to hell. Sin can't exist in the presence of God. His Holiness would disintegrate us before we could blink.
No, you're right, it wasn't just. At least not for Jesus. We didn't deserve it.

What solution would you have done?
I'm betting if you had a child and someone murdered them, or kidnapped, molested, etc.. them you would want vengeance, at the very least justice.
I know I would. It seems pretty simple to me.

s.i.e. · Jun 20, 2012

Green Berean -- thanks for taking the time to try to explain this. I'm not sure I understand it, but I like what you're saying, and appreciate the zipper metaphor.

I suppose all that makes some sense. I still don't understand the death/blood/sacrifice stuff...or the "need" for it all.

B-A-C said:
What solution would you have done?
I'm betting if you had a child and someone murdered them, or kidnapped, molested, etc.. them you would want vengeance, at the very least justice.
I know I would. It seems pretty simple to me.

Yeah, ok....but who murdered, kidnapped, or molested GOD? Who did that to God? I know Christians would want to say "humans!!!" (Adam & Eve, etc)....but....honestly...really?

They ate an apple. They disobeyed. They allowed curiosity to get the better of them. And, in doing so, God....viewed that as...a murdering/kidnapping/molestation (to stick with the metaphor) that was so significant that it required the rest of mankind's history to be set in motion under the guise of blood sacrifices, death, crucifixtion, and the various rules read about in Leviticus???

What kind of "death" was caused by mankind to/against God, such that God had to require a death to cover it over? Why can't God bend away from His seeming "eye for an eye" or "life for a life" response to mankind's apparent attrocities? Didn't God say "it is good"? So...if it's so good, why can't He even look at us except through blood-washed lenses?

And this kind of "justice" seems perfectly understandable to you all? "only blood will do..."??!?!?!

It's an apple. What do you do to your kids if they eat a piece of chocolate that you asked them not to eat before dinner? Do you require the family dog to be sacrificed and burnt on an altar, to assuage the disobedience and betrayal...the murder caused...by the eating of chocolate?

Green Berean · Jun 20, 2012

Actually, we don't know that it was an apple. Renaissance paintings usually render it such because apples are prominent in Europe (in fact, when Romans ate peaches for the first time, they called them "malum persicum," or "Persian apple"). The fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was rather spiritual in nature. I don't know if every tree in Eden conveyed spiritual properties, but we do know the Tree of Life was present and that eating of regularly would render you immortal.
It's not that Adam and Eve were "curious"; Eve was deceived by Satan into rejecting God by doubting the goodness He displayed to her with imagined ulterior motives, and the Bible tells us that Adam was not deceived, which means he just flat out disobeyed and rejected God.
God told them if they ate of the fruit which they were told not to eat, then on that day they would surely die. Adam lived to be 939 years old, so it's probably safe to assume that he put a few centuries under his belt after being kicked out of Eden. It's not that God punished Adam; it's that Adam committed suicide in the spiritual realm. All he could recognize was shame, so God killed an animal to provide covering for his shame. From there, he would learn thirst, want, and everything else a mortal (spiritually dead) body knows.
Blood is significant because a body can't live without it. When we are near death, we get blood transfusions. That is precisely what the shed blood of Jesus is for us.

s.i.e. · Jun 20, 2012

Green Berean said:
It's not that Adam and Eve were "curious"; Eve was deceived by Satan into rejecting God by doubting the goodness He displayed to her with imagined ulterior motives, and the Bible tells us that Adam was not deceived, which means he just flat out disobeyed and rejected God.

How many times in life have people you love doubted your goodness, or wondered if you had ulterior motives? How many times in life have your kids flat our disobeyed you? Perhaps you gave them a spanking, at worst....or a time out or something....but it likely didn't exceed that.

Again, can you imagine responding to your kids, the way God responded to humans, when they "doubted his goodness" or disobeyed?

Green Berean said:
All he could recognize was shame, so God killed an animal to provide covering for his shame. From there, he would learn thirst, want, and everything else a mortal (spiritually dead) body knows.

That's a very interesting...and new (to me)...way to consider it. That's very thought provocing. Could it be that all this "sacrifice" is for our sakes, and not so much God's? It sounds like that's what you're implying. I've never heard that before.

As a Berean, I would imagine you have "backup" for how you got there? Verses, etc?

Christ4Ever · Jun 20, 2012

Green Berean said:
Those who partake in that death with Him will share in His life......... This is why the Holy Spirit who set the top of Mt. Sinai on fire with His presence can indwell man.

Is it justice? Sure. God is holy and just. But as the book of James says, "mercy triumphs over judgment."

Awesome post! I would add here that baptism as Paul speaks of in Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

In God mercy does triumph over judgment, because He is a righteous God. Only He can bring Order out of Chaos. Man's issue is not always with the correction, but the method that God uses. This is most frequently observed by man who can’t or won’t allow themselves to believe that they are incapable of understanding the total of what God Is and does. By man I would mean the unbelieving world. We as believers still have a tough time of it. We're still growing through the Holy Spirit. Yet we know we’ll have an eternity to get to know Him and in knowing Him, our understanding will increase. Now that’s an awesome thing to contemplate! Alleluia. </SPAN>

YBIC
C4E

Green Berean · Jun 21, 2012

And once again, I say that human suffering is not the result of a divine over-reaction to sin, but the result of man's death. If you are an immortal being and your days suddenly become numbered, then death simply becomes a matter of time. Adam separated himself from the source of life, which is akin to a placenta detaching from the uterus--a miscarriage. Typically, what is dead cannot simply return to life by undoing the choice. I would imagine most suicide victims would be walking among us if that were the case.
Romans 8 tells us that God subjected creation to corruption (meaning, He's preserving it in its fallen form rather than simply flushing it and being done with the whole thing, as Noah's Flood tells us He could certainly do) in order to work redemption.
In Revelation 5, Jesus is called the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. This means that His death was an eternal act. When Paul said in Galatians that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness, it is because his faith was drawing upon the eternal grace of God that had not yet entered into the physical world.
It is because of the righteousness made available apart from the Law which tells me that sacrifices were never the point. The book of Hebrews tells us that the primary purpose of the sacrifices was to deal with the guilt of sin when dealing with God. They also serve as a reference point to understand the significance of what Christ did. Without the centuries upon centuries of cultural and ceremonial context for Jesus to draw from in His ministry, how would any of us understand the point of Him showing up to work miracles, die violently, rise again, and then ascend to Heaven? Even with the vast history and prophecy of the Old Testament as our guide, it still confuses many of us.
The fact is that the animal sacrifices were pointing toward death; the Israelites thought it pointed toward their death which was staved off for another year, but in reality it pointed toward the one death Christ died for all.

stephen · Jun 21, 2012

s.i.e. said:
Hebrews 9:22 Indeed according to the law almost everything was purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Ok...what is your c oncern with the "blood" throughout God's story? Throughout the book of Leviticus (Lev 8:22-24), for example, there is blood that needed to be shed. I understand that it was to "cover the sins" and misdoings, but what's up with blood being God's answer, or remedy, for that?

Why blood?

Whether it be the blood of a ram caught in a thicket that gets used for an altar...or His own Son's blood...YHWH seemed to have a mandate or affection for the viscous red stuff.

We've become familiar with this, as Christians...or course...but think about how you react if you see some abberational nightly news story about a local satanist putting a cat on an alter to kill it, drink it's blood, and spread its remaining blood and parts all over the surrounding areas.

It's greusome, violent, twisted, depraved, and reprehensible stuff, if you think about it outside Christianity! Can you imagine how insane the outside world thinks we are, to drink...altogether as a congregation...on any given Sunday?

What was it about God that caused him to require and mandate that kind of quid-pro-quo, of sorts?

In advance: I would love to see some Bible verses that tell us of the "why" behind God's thinking here...but I'm not sure there are any. Still, it's got to be part of one's thinking or questions if you read a book like Leviticus....so, I thought I would ask the question in the Bible Study forum.

thanks

Why blood

Proud soul.....who are you to question? You would like to see some bible answers......Who do you think you are?

The bible is talking about Salvation......replicated in the answer....Jesus.

s.i.e. · Jun 21, 2012

stephen said:
Proud soul.....who are you to question? You would like to see some bible answers......Who do you think you are?

The bible is talking about Salvation......replicated in the answer....Jesus.

uhh...really? Why the shaming, and the judgement? Who am I?

...just a guy trying to understand things. A guy trying to "work out my salvation". And who the heck are you to say I can't or shouldn't ask such things? (and, is there something wrong, in particular, with me asking for "Bible answers" on this subject? Isn't that what this forum is specifically for??)

By the way, your response is why these questions are often not asked in church: because people know they'll get judged, dismissed, and disregarded. They'll be swept under the proverbial rugs, and sent out from whence they came. That doesn't mean they aren't asked in the souls which you may purport to play a role in saving. But perhaps you're only interested in saving those who are already "past" such raw questions?

B-A-C · Jun 21, 2012

s.i.e. said:
Green Berean -- thanks for taking the time to try to explain this. I'm not sure I understand it, but I like what you're saying, and appreciate the zipper metaphor. I suppose all that makes some sense. I still don't understand the death/blood/sacrifice stuff...or the "need" for it all.
Yeah, ok....but who murdered, kidnapped, or molested GOD? Who did that to God? I know Christians would want to say "humans!!!" (Adam & Eve, etc)....but....honestly...really?
They ate an apple. They disobeyed. They allowed curiosity to get the better of them. And, in doing so, God....viewed that as...a murdering/kidnapping/molestation (to stick with the metaphor) that was so significant that it required the rest of mankind's history to be set in motion under the guise of blood sacrifices, death, crucifixtion, and the various rules read about in Leviticus???
What kind of "death" was caused by mankind to/against God, such that God had to require a death to cover it over? Why can't God bend away from His seeming "eye for an eye" or "life for a life" response to mankind's apparent attrocities? Didn't God say "it is good"? So...if it's so good, why can't He even look at us except through blood-washed lenses?

And this kind of "justice" seems perfectly understandable to you all? "only blood will do..."??!?!?!
It's an apple. What do you do to your kids if they eat a piece of chocolate that you asked them not to eat before dinner? Do you require the family dog to be sacrificed and burnt on an altar, to assuage the disobedience and betrayal...the murder caused...by the eating of chocolate?

It wasn't only an apple, it was the knowledge of good and evil. Can you imagine suddenly knowing this?
I tend to be somewhat disciplinarian. I punished my kids for eating dessert before dinner and sneaking things out of the fridge.
I tend to believe the reason the crime rate is so high here and the prisons are over crowded is because parents somewhere didn't do the same.
Today it's an apple, tomorrow it's a television, or car or gun...
Sin is sin.

There is a song, the words go something like this...
Does he still feel the nails
Every time I fail
Can he hear the crowd cry "Crucify" again
Am I causing him pain
Then I know I've got to change
I just can't bear the thought of hurting him.

I think you're looking at this wrong. You ask who kidnapped or murdered God, well we humans did murder God in a way (Jesus).
But that's not really what you're asking. Even if no one did these things to God, we would never be good enough or holy enough to get to heaven.
The reason someone had to die, (a spotless lamb) was so we could made good and Holy enough.
That kid that stole the television and car and gun above, someone loved him enough to pay the price for him. It wasn't our blood, but it should have been.
Why complain about it? We should be praising Jesus for it. He suffered so we don't have to.

s.i.e. · Jun 22, 2012

B-A-C said:
I think you're looking at this wrong.

You're probably right. I think I probably am looking at it backwards. That said, I feel eluded from the "correct" way to view it right now. I'm feeling trapped a bit. It doesn't make sense to me...and I can't just open my heart to things right now, without it first making sense. I didn't used to be that way. I used to "just believe"...and now, I'm in this other place.

To the Stephen's of the world out there who are put off...I'm not sure whether to apologize for asking the question, thank him for pointing out my folly (if it's folly), or just ignore him and try to forgive him for telling me I have no right to ask such a question.

Either way, I'm glad to get some feedback on this, as it is a real question that I have. So...thanks!

B-A-C said:
Why complain about it? We should be praising Jesus for it. He suffered so we don't have to.

Indeed. You're right. I'm trying to find a way to get back to praise and thanks. In the end, that is the song I want to be playing in my soul.

Christ4Ever · Jun 24, 2012

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Is it possible that at the moment in which the thought of disobedience was conceived and allowed to fester in their minds (Eve & Adam) that they died spiritually (Separation from God by introducing Sin spiritually into their lives.) (Matthew 5:28) and the act of eating of the fruit of Knowledge of good & evil made this disobedience not only a spiritual one of sin, but a physical one when they ate of the tree and introduced the physical death into their bodies or physical realm?

We know that we believers live already spiritually (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:6), but physically we die. We also know that the tree of life will be given to believers (Revelation 2:7, and Revelation 22:14). Might not this be the vehicle by which eternal life is given to the physical body? and who but believers will be granted access to this, through the obedience of Christ Jesus and our own obedience to the Lord?

I mention this as a way of explaining the need for blood in atonement through Jesus Christ. We know that life is in the blood of the physical body. The blood then corrupted the body through the fruit of Knowledge of good & evil. Now in order to be corrected would not uncorrupted blood (Blood of the Lamb) need to be shed as part of atonement between man and God (Romans 5:11)?

This might not stand with man's perceived notions of righteousness or justice. Yet as I stated before, man has the most difficulty dealing with the methodology of God because our perception of justice and God's are not the same. I honestly believe we will grow into seeing it His way as we continue to submit ourselves in all facets of our lives to Him and begin to see things through the Eyes of God.
YBIC
C4E
1 Corinthians 1:30

Michelle71 · Jun 25, 2012

Each one of us sells our soul (life) at some point in time. That is what Adam and Eve did. They chose another way other than God's way. Their life then was subjected to another. The communion with God is severed. This was
not God's doing, but mens doing. Each life is their own, and when they sell it into slavery, they do not have another life to give for the replacement. God sent His only begotten Son as the payment for every life. Because he
knew no sin, the slave owner could not keep him. There was no legal grounds to keep him in prision. God has said that each soul that believes the price has been paid by Jesus, then gets out of jail. Their life has been ransomed.

Life is in the blood. That is the price that is paid. Not to God, but to the slave owner. Jesus trumped that slave owner when He was found sinless. He found Himself raised from the dead taking as many as believed or would believe
after that with Him. Hell could be empty. The prisions silent. If only every soul would come to God through Jesus as their own currency for freedom. Telling Satan that the price is paid with the life (blood) of Jesus now and forever. No
more life needed. No more blood spilt to satisfy his insatiable lust for life. No more battery packs, for that life is now with God in Christ.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The law became the curse, for God's law is beyond anyone filling it for their own freedom. Satan is the great accuser, and is the curse of the law. Jesus became the curse when He was found perfect and flawless when compared to
the Law of God. He was charged as not guilty because he was not guilty. The Law was satisfied by Him, and through Him it is satisfied for all those who believe because His Father says so. Where Satan requires works of perfection,
which is unattanable, for "freedom", Christ requires only belief that He paid the price. Our accuser becomes, is replaced by, the very one who paid the price.

It's like if someone does something that the penalty is death. Another comes in and dies in their place, only, they are resurrected. The price was paid, only the one who paid it also is free.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

s.i.e. · Jun 25, 2012

Wow --- some very good stuff here. Thanks for sharing it. New ways to look at it for me...

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

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