Winning arguments, losing souls

[Hekuran]

Browsing through this site, I cannot help but notice the emphasis given to proving that we are right.

We seem to put a lot of store by winning arguments, whether it be about the authority of the Bible, the relation between science and faith, the errors in a lot of Roman Catholicism and so on.

Another theme that crops up many times is that Christianity is not fundamentally a religion, it is a relationship with God.

The two don't gel well. Attacking others' beliefs and trying to persuade others of our proofs does not seem to be a natural way to bring others into a closer relationship with Jesus Christ.

For example, in conversation with Muslims, discussing a contentious issue such as the nature of the Trinity is unlikely to bring about any real change. The most we could realistically hope for would be to demonstrate that it is possible to believe in one Godhead of three persons. In the same way, I have never met anybody whose Christian testimony begins with the realisation that the theory of evolution is intellectually bankrupt.

Rather than concentrating on rational proofs, wouldn't we do better to consider how to introduce people to the person of Jesus.

Just in case it appears otherwise, I'd like to affirm that I am not soft on truth or doctrine, just that I doubt the wisdom and effectiveness of depending on logical debate in bringing people closer to God.

These are thoughts and observations rather than conclusions at this stage. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

[Boanerges]

Talk Jesus is of course a place for discussion and "Iron sharpens iron".

That is not the same as interacting with lost people or the world though. I try to look at it this way; if we are led of the Holy Spirit He will guide us in what to say. He will tell us when to witness, when to stand for truth and sometimes to be silent, listen and share the love of Christ. Above all if we are expressing His heart we will speak the truth in love; if one takes away His love it no longer resembles His truth.

 

[Chad]

Browsing through this site, I cannot help but notice the emphasis given to proving that we are right.

So you browsed 23,000 thread, 118,000+ posts to determine a fair opinion on this site?

We seem to put a lot of store by winning arguments, whether it be about the authority of the Bible, the relation between science and faith, the errors in a lot of Roman Catholicism and so on.

Who is "we" here that does this?

Another theme that crops up many times is that Christianity is not fundamentally a religion, it is a relationship with God.

If you can't figure this out by now as a Christian, then you probably need to examine your heart with GOD. Christianity is a relationship with Jesus, not a religion. That's truth, whether or not you like that.

The two don't gel well. Attacking others' beliefs and trying to persuade others of our proofs does not seem to be a natural way to bring others into a closer relationship with Jesus Christ.

Well you contradict yourself. You're attacking the "site" and whomever the "we" people are, yourself Why don't you tell us the "natural way" to bring others to a closer relationship with Christ. Please go ahead, since you clearly have a lot of criticism in your post about the rest of the site.

Rather than concentrating on rational proofs, wouldn't we do better to consider how to introduce people to the person of Jesus.

So, rational proof is now something bad? How do you introduce someone [unbeliever] to Christ without backing it up with "rational proof"? You expect every unbeliever to believe anything they hear without some proof of merit behind your speech and belief?

Just in case it appears otherwise, I'd like to affirm that I am not soft on truth or doctrine, just that I doubt the wisdom and effectiveness of depending on logical debate in bringing people closer to God.

You do appear soft on truth and doctrine. Your post makes that very clear. You can doubt what you wish, but you don't speak for the rest of us and on behalf of the Holy Spirit who is solely in charge of changing a man's heart as He pleases and guiding His believers to reach out to others.

You do what the Spirit guides you to do, and leave others to be guided by the Spirit not your observations and thoughts.

1 Corinthians 12:7-9

<sup id="en-ESV-28625" class="versenum" value="7">7</sup> To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. <sup id="en-ESV-28626" class="versenum" value="8">8</sup>For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, <sup id="en-ESV-28627" class="versenum" value="9">9</sup>to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,


Luke 12:11-13

<sup id="en-ESV-25462" class="versenum" value="11">11</sup> And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, <sup id="en-ESV-25463" class="versenum" value="12">12</sup> for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."


I really would suggest looking at your post one more time, carefully and realizing the issue is your many criticisms, assumptions of others and disrespect towards this site and the members.

 

[Hekuran]

I am very sorry if what I wrote comes across as critical and disrespectful. I enjoy the site very much, and have found many of the discussions helpful. When I wrote "we", I meant contributers to this site in general including myself. Of course I haven't read every post, I was simply making a general observation based on what I have read in the past month or so.

I don't have an argument to pick with the TalkJesus site, or any individual here. I do have quite a few different ideas in my head that I am struggling to resolve biblically.

I have had a little more chance to think over what is nagging at me. It is centred around Jesus statement "I am the way the truth and the life". I naturally tend to think of truth as being centred on facts and statements.

Jesus, saying that he is the Truth, points beyond mere fact. Truth is personal and relational.

And my answer to the question how do I introduce someone to Jesus without rational proof? first off, I never suggested that logic is bad or unnecessary, just that it should not be primary. I am suggesting that introducing people to the person of Jesus is the most important, more important than persuading others to believe the right thing.

 

[Gracealone]

In a Christian site such as this, I dont believe many unsaved people enter here, so as Christians sharing in our desire to know God better we sharpen each other by interacting.
As we have said in the past, Iron, sharpening iron......

Like our Church says, just above the door as we leave, "You are now entering your mission field."

The fields are ripe, out there in the world.

It grieves my heart to see how very desperate the shape of the world is.
My little 5 year old Great Ganddaughter tells me her friends ,of the same age are telling her, "God is dead!"

How can that be?

A little child already hardened to not believe in God.

This has been the plan of Satan to capture the minds of a generation, through the children.....

God help, and forgive, we have been asleep, and this generation is in desperate need.

As we challenge each other here, and turn off our Computers, may we see the words in our hearts, "You are now entering your mission field."

 

[Coconut]

Act 20:26 So I solemnly declare to you this very day: if any of you should be lost, I am not responsible.
Act 20:27 For I have not held back from announcing to you the whole purpose of God.
Act 20:28 So keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he made his own through the blood of his Son.
Act 20:29 I know that after I leave, fierce wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock.
Act 20:30 The time will come when some men from your own group will tell lies to lead the believers away after them.
Act 20:31 Watch, then, and remember that with many tears, day and night, I taught every one of you for three years.
Act 20:32 "And now I commend you to the care of God and to the message of his grace, which is able to build you up and give you the blessings God has for all his people.

2Co 10:3 It is true that we live in the world, but we do not fight from worldly motives.
2Co 10:4 The weapons we use in our fight are not the world's weapons but God's powerful weapons, which we use to destroy strongholds. We destroy false arguments;
2Co 10:5 we pull down every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God; we take every thought captive and make it obey Christ.

2Ti 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and because he is coming to rule as King, I solemnly urge you
2Ti 4:2 to preach the message, to insist upon proclaiming it (whether the time is right or not), to convince, reproach, and encourage, as you teach with all patience.
2Ti 4:3 The time will come when people will not listen to sound doctrine, but will follow their own desires and will collect for themselves more and more teachers who will tell them what they are itching to hear.
2Ti 4:4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give their attention to legends.

Jud 1:3 My dear friends, I was doing my best to write to you about the salvation we share in common, when I felt the need of writing at once to encourage you to fight on for the faith which once and for all God has given to his people.
Jud 1:4 For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of our God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received.