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Why Do Some Christains think the world is supposed to be peacefully and Godly. When Jesus and The Bible has declared the Opposite.

Active
No different from what the "Adversary" told Eve in the Garden: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:".

Jesus and The Bible has declare, there will be no peace in this world. And Christians continue to pray for a type of Peace, That GOD the Father has declared there will be none, because he is the one that will take it away. The peace we will have is when we are "born into the Family of GOD" I type of Peace the world can never know or underdstand.


New American Standard Bible
Peace I leave you, My peace I give you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, nor fearful.
John 16:33
I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!"
(Luke 6:22).
“Happy are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man.

"The True "sons of God" grows and matures in "Adversity". If no Suffering no Salavation. Three Enemies of the "sons of GOD" The World, The Flesh, The Devil, and all three are "Allies" against the True "Sons of GOD". And they work with permission from The Lord God ALmighty". And sometimes they have permisson from GOD to Kill you, showing you no mercy, But I tell you one thing, "Don't fear" because "GOD" can bring you back! Even if you have been in the grave for a Thousand years! He can wake you back up, as you if it was the next day.


"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. "While people are saying, “Peace and security,”destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.…"
 
Member
It's called the Problem with Evil. If God is All Loving (1 John 4:16, 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:7), All Knowing (Isaiah 40:28, 1 John 3:20, Job 37:16), and All Powerful (Matthew 19:26, Luke 1:37, Jeremiah 32:17, Job 42:2, etc etc), then there is no feasible reason for evil to exist in this world. The image below basically sums up the problem with evil:


But let's get into further detail. First, what is evil?
There is actually two types of evil in the world: Moral evil and Natural evil. Moral evil would be like lying, stealing, killing, politics, and so on. Natural evil would fall in line with hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes- things like that. So it's almost understandable why God would allow moral evil to run about if you believe in the concept of free will, but why would God allow natural evils to occur? I've heard Christians explain natural evil as living in a natural world that has been corrupted by sin ever since Eve decided to eat the fruit, so even natural disasters are the result of the "free will" of a couple of people, Adam and Eve.
You're probably wondering why I put free will in quotation marks. That's because the concept of free will is impossible if God is all knowing.
But think about it. What exactly does it mean to have free will?
"Free will, in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints." (Britannica)
Free will, in this sense of the word, is impossible with an all knowing god because "God is omniscient and His knowledge is timeless—that is, God knows timelessly all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Therefore, if He knows timelessly that a person will perform such-and-such an action, then it is impossible for that person not to perform that action," thus, by taking away our option to choose not to do something, as it is physically impossible to do so, then there is no free will. What we have done, what we do, and what we will do are written in stone by God's omniscience. And the Bible even agrees with this.
Romans 8:29-30 says "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
And Ephesians 1:5 says " he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will ... "
So if God already knows who will be saved and who won't, then where is the free will? There is no free will. There's only His will.
So to go back to my previous point, God knew ahead of time whether or not Adam and Eve will eat from the fruit of the tree. He knew that the serpent will be in the garden and will turn his creation against him. He knew that his plan will fall apart, and that He will have to jump through hoops and hurdles to try and rekindle His relationship with his creation (a flood to "start over", a tabernacle with 3 books worth of rules as to how to properly build and sacrifice, his son). He knew all of this. If God is really as omniscient as the Bible says he is, then he knew the moment that He decided to create light all of the suffering that will come after that. And he did it anyway.

But yeah that's just the jist of the problem of Evil. When Jesus was saying that there will be evil in the world and to expect it, he was speaking of an ongoing problem and encouraging his followers to push through it. But if God is truly all loving, knowing and powerful, then Jesus' statements about evil shouldn't exist because evil shouldn't exist.
But yea that's the problem with evil. Hope this answers your question :)
 
Active
It's called the Problem with Evil. If God is All Loving (1 John 4:16, 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:7), All Knowing (Isaiah 40:28, 1 John 3:20, Job 37:16), and All Powerful (Matthew 19:26, Luke 1:37, Jeremiah 32:17, Job 42:2, etc etc), then there is no feasible reason for evil to exist in this world. The image below basically sums up the problem with evil:


But let's get into further detail. First, what is evil?
There is actually two types of evil in the world: Moral evil and Natural evil. Moral evil would be like lying, stealing, killing, politics, and so on. Natural evil would fall in line with hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes- things like that. So it's almost understandable why God would allow moral evil to run about if you believe in the concept of free will, but why would God allow natural evils to occur? I've heard Christians explain natural evil as living in a natural world that has been corrupted by sin ever since Eve decided to eat the fruit, so even natural disasters are the result of the "free will" of a couple of people, Adam and Eve.
You're probably wondering why I put free will in quotation marks. That's because the concept of free will is impossible if God is all knowing.
But think about it. What exactly does it mean to have free will?
"Free will, in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints." (Britannica)
Free will, in this sense of the word, is impossible with an all knowing god because "God is omniscient and His knowledge is timeless—that is, God knows timelessly all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. Therefore, if He knows timelessly that a person will perform such-and-such an action, then it is impossible for that person not to perform that action," thus, by taking away our option to choose not to do something, as it is physically impossible to do so, then there is no free will. What we have done, what we do, and what we will do are written in stone by God's omniscience. And the Bible even agrees with this.
Romans 8:29-30 says "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
And Ephesians 1:5 says " he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will ... "
So if God already knows who will be saved and who won't, then where is the free will? There is no free will. There's only His will.
So to go back to my previous point, God knew ahead of time whether or not Adam and Eve will eat from the fruit of the tree. He knew that the serpent will be in the garden and will turn his creation against him. He knew that his plan will fall apart, and that He will have to jump through hoops and hurdles to try and rekindle His relationship with his creation (a flood to "start over", a tabernacle with 3 books worth of rules as to how to properly build and sacrifice, his son). He knew all of this. If God is really as omniscient as the Bible says he is, then he knew the moment that He decided to create light all of the suffering that will come after that. And he did it anyway.

But yeah that's just the jist of the problem of Evil. When Jesus was saying that there will be evil in the world and to expect it, he was speaking of an ongoing problem and encouraging his followers to push through it. But if God is truly all loving, knowing and powerful, then Jesus' statements about evil shouldn't exist because evil shouldn't exist.
But yea that's the problem with evil. Hope this answers your question :)
In the last few decades, it has become so strange, that "Modern Day" christians, has taken on the worlds view of "GOD Almighty", and not a Biblical view whatsoever, that the True GOD ALMIGHTY" has dwindle away, and does not exists in their thought patterns, but only in the form of "philosophical" thought provoking mankind, as If GOD was a Highly Intelligent Man, with a super Brain. For their tones and speech patterns has painted HIM as if He was, And that He has place a "Magical paint brush" between their fingers and given them the paint of Mind, that they may color the face of GOD, with worldly words of expression, even greater than the written "WORD of GOD" it self, that has walked among us. Who some of us has Beheld HIs GLORY, that written human words cannot express neither is there any human words that is capable to express HIS Character or HIS Capabilities in any shape form or fashion. But can be only describe, by "Anthropomorphic" words to a "Finite being" by a "Infinite GOD", who is a "Incomprehensible "GOD relating to a "Fallen Human Creature" that lost The "Ability" to commune with a "HOLY GOD" in The Garden of Eden" by pure and outright Rebellion and had a choice to Chose "DEATH or LIFE" and that DAY That Creature DIE! And that Creature began to produce of its own KIND, A Fallen Creature that Produces Fallen Creatures. And GOD does not lie! Just because a fallen sinful creature does not understand the word "Death" that had happen in GARDEN of Eden, And that creature has become so blind and corrupted and so Deaden and dead to the Truth, That GOD has place upon their eyes, their minds, that mankind only can "speculate", in such patterns of "Truth" and then take the "audacity" to speak in their "ideology" as If It was the Very "Words of GOD".

"Sons Of God" we are not the people of this world but we live in it. Our Language is Different, We use their words but in "Anthropomorphic" forms, when we use the word "LOVE" they have do idea, what so ever it means, When we use the words relating to "OUR GOD" the world has no idea whats so ever we mean! The world is "DEAD" to our terms and Terminology! Neither can they understand, For "GOD has Blinded their Eyes and Close their ears, so that seeing they think they see and by hearing they think they are hearing.l No Human words can express our GOD! Our GOD made a name for HIS self, that will be known thoughout the WORLD; "The GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"! If they want to know about "OUR GOD", let them read the BOOK! It is written about HIm. And we confirm, that those written words are true, where it has not been, "adulterated". by the whims of mankind. for their own purposes.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.:eyes:
In burnt offerings and sin offerings
You took no delight.
Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:
I have come to do Your will, O God.’ ”
In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We are Not of this world, we are "Born of GOD" earthy words cannot describe our GOD! And earthy People who are just only church going people, and some that think they are children of GOD, does not understand this language, but only hear the sound of gibberish to their ears.\, for they have their own "vocabulary" when they express "God" and their own feelings and expression of God and The Son of God" who they are. With human expressions, of "The True God". That "miss the mark".

The answer: "The fall in the "Garden of Eden"! and the Fall was not a mistake! It was planed, by the Potter.:eyes:
 
Member
In the last few decades, it has become so strange, that "Modern Day" christians, has taken on the worlds view of "GOD Almighty", and not a Biblical view whatsoever, that the True GOD ALMIGHTY" has dwindle away, and does not exists in their thought patterns, but only in the form of "philosophical" thought provoking mankind, as If GOD was a Highly Intelligent Man, with a super Brain. For their tones and speech patterns has painted HIM as if He was, And that He has place a "Magical paint brush" between their fingers and given them the paint of Mind, that they may color the face of GOD, with worldly words of expression, even greater than the written "WORD of GOD" it self, that has walked among us. Who some of us has Beheld HIs GLORY, that written human words cannot express neither is there any human words that is capable to express HIS Character or HIS Capabilities in any shape form or fashion. But can be only describe, by "Anthropomorphic" words to a "Finite being" by a "Infinite GOD", who is a "Incomprehensible "GOD relating to a "Fallen Human Creature" that lost The "Ability" to commune with a "HOLY GOD" in The Garden of Eden" by pure and outright Rebellion and had a choice to Chose "DEATH or LIFE" and that DAY That Creature DIE! And that Creature began to produce of its own KIND, A Fallen Creature that Produces Fallen Creatures. And GOD does not lie! Just because a fallen sinful creature does not understand the word "Death" that had happen in GARDEN of Eden, And that creature has become so blind and corrupted and so Deaden and dead to the Truth, That GOD has place upon their eyes, their minds, that mankind only can "speculate", in such patterns of "Truth" and then take the "audacity" to speak in their "ideology" as If It was the Very "Words of GOD".

"Sons Of God" we are not the people of this world but we live in it. Our Language is Different, We use their words but in "Anthropomorphic" forms, when we use the word "LOVE" they have do idea, what so ever it means, When we use the words relating to "OUR GOD" the world has no idea whats so ever we mean! The world is "DEAD" to our terms and Terminology! Neither can they understand, For "GOD has Blinded their Eyes and Close their ears, so that seeing they think they see and by hearing they think they are hearing.l No Human words can express our GOD! Our GOD made a name for HIS self, that will be known thoughout the WORLD; "The GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"! If they want to know about "OUR GOD", let them read the BOOK! It is written about HIm. And we confirm, that those written words are true, where it has not been, "adulterated". by the whims of mankind. for their own purposes.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.:eyes:
In burnt offerings and sin offerings
You took no delight.
Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:
I have come to do Your will, O God.’ ”
In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

We are Not of this world, we are "Born of GOD" earthy words cannot describe our GOD! And earthy People who are just only church going people, and some that think they are children of GOD, does not understand this language, but only hear the sound of gibberish to their ears.\, for they have their own "vocabulary" when they express "God" and their own feelings and expression of God and The Son of God" who they are. With human expressions, of "The True God". That "miss the mark".

The answer: "The fall in the "Garden of Eden"! and the Fall was not a mistake! It was planed, by the Potter.:eyes:
What? What are you talking about?
First of all, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you're challenging the idea of putting labels on God? It looks like you're claiming that there are no words to describe who God is completely, but then go on to label God as HOLY and INFINITE and so on. So are you saying that calling God All Loving, All knowing, and All Powerful is somehow erroneous? I can't see how that's possible, since multiple verses claim that God is all powerful, knowing, loving, etc and I provided some of them in my previous post.
Then you went on to quote a verse. I'm not sure why. Are you implying that God allows unimaginable evil in the world because He likes the smell of burnt offerings? I don't see how that makes sense. If He is all powerful, then surely he can enjoy the smell of burnt offerings in a perfect world of His creation. And Jesus only came to the world because the world was fallen. But, as I said in the points above, Jesus wouldn't have had to come down to earth if God didn't allow evil in the world to begin with.
But I feel like the most interesting line in your response is your last line, how the Fall wasn't a mistake and that it was planned. So, you're essentially claiming that God intended for evil and all of the pain and suffering that comes with it.
If I had created a world and creatures in the world with the direct intent to bring harm and suffering to my creation, wouldn't that make me, I don't know, a horrible person? So what does this say about God?
 
Active
What? What are you talking about?
First of all, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like you're challenging the idea of putting labels on God? It looks like you're claiming that there are no words to describe who God is completely, but then go on to label God as HOLY and INFINITE and so on. So are you saying that calling God All Loving, All knowing, and All Powerful is somehow erroneous? I can't see how that's possible, since multiple verses claim that God is all powerful, knowing, loving, etc and I provided some of them in my previous post.
Then you went on to quote a verse. I'm not sure why. Are you implying that God allows unimaginable evil in the world because He likes the smell of burnt offerings? I don't see how that makes sense. If He is all powerful, then surely he can enjoy the smell of burnt offerings in a perfect world of His creation. And Jesus only came to the world because the world was fallen. But, as I said in the points above, Jesus wouldn't have had to come down to earth if God didn't allow evil in the world to begin with.
But I feel like the most interesting line in your response is your last line, how the Fall wasn't a mistake and that it was planned. So, you're essentially claiming that God intended for evil and all of the pain and suffering that comes with it.
If I had created a world and creatures in the world with the direct intent to bring harm and suffering to my creation, wouldn't that make me, I don't know, a horrible person? So what does this say about God?
Ok, you said: ["I feel like you're challenging the idea of putting labels on God"] I am not into "idealism". I am not in favor of
"Idealism" pertaining to the Character of GOD. My Field of Biblical Studying of over 40 years is "Theology Proper"! My form of "Methodology of Hermeneutics" is "Historical Grammatical" approach.
And i do believe that the "Original Copied Manuscript" of The text is with out error. So in that case, i believe in the "Biblical inerrancy". which is formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

Further more i did use the term "Anthropomorphic" words and then you said i said "Holy" because the the "Original Copied Manuscript" mentions "Holy and He has always been and always will be. he has no beginning and He has no end. But A human being has a "beginning and a ending" So now we have a 'Infinite Being" communicating with a "finite" creature. So we learn these terms in Grade school. Now how can a "Finite creature" comprehend the "Incomprehensible', UNLESS, the Infinite Being, communicates in an "Anthropomorphic" forms. That a Human creature can relate to.

Example: The Bible might says; God scoop the mountains out with his hands. We know GOD does not have hands like a man, or scoop the mountains out with His hands.

The Bible says When God Look down unto the Earth and saw how wicked mankind had gotten. We know GOD does not have to look anywhere, far as we know GOD does not even have eyes. On the Mountain Sinai, the voices in the rioting camp, God heard, does not mean He has ears.

In the Garden when The Bible said: How the voice of the LORD walked in the breeze of the Day. Does not mean The "GOD ALMIGHTY "voice Has Legs. and it really walked as mankind sees walking in the breeze of the day.

And when the Bible says: that the clouds are the "Dust of His Feet" and the Earth is His footstool. The Words are "Anthropomorphic" words but God gives some understanding. Like a Mother or Father communicating to there new born child. But GOD is Greater than a Human being and not to be compared.

(Isaiah ).
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

(BSB)
You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you.
(BSB)
‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination. Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.

For this creation was created to be destroy by GOD from the foundations of the world!
(Romans).
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit , the redemption of our body. For in [That] hope [is why] we were] saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


And lastly you said this:
"If I had created a world and creatures in the world with the direct intent to bring harm and suffering to my creation, wouldn't that make me, I don't know, a horrible person? So what does this say about God?"

But see "GOD" is not a person or Human being. No matter What GOD does in any Category he is "Holy" and Just" The "Tetragrammaton". He is not like us, nor can we comprehend that is Incomprehensible with a "finite mind". Astronomers have determine that since 2018 in October, that their ARE OVER TWO TRILLION GALAXIES IN THE UNIVERSE. And we live in the "Milky Way" Galaxie and they have discovered there are over a 100 billion "Sola systems" and a great possibility of many more. And Our "Sola System" along have about 8 or 9 Planets. Everyday they are saying they have discovered more "Galaxies", Sola Systems". Now GOD made the "Cosmos" in 7 days! And The Bible speaks about the Adopted sons of GOD will Be joint Heirs and Reign with the Only Begotten "SON of GOD" throughout eternity, a True "Inheritance" and GOD the Father IS going to make everything Brand NEW! That eyes have never saw, nor ears have ever heard of, nor enter into the mind or heart of Man, that A human mind cannot even "Comprehend" because it has not the ability to do so. This gift that GOD is Going to Give to His SON, He will share that gift with us! The whole Creation story is About GOD's SON and not us! This Love is For HIS SON! It is not about us! If you think that GOD loves the World ,more than He Loves His Only Begotten SON, "you have miss THE MARK"! If you think GOD loves you more than He loves His Son, you might have been deceived. and need to go back and read the Whole Book again with "Biblical Lexicons" and old english dictionaries , Webster's preferred. And take full advantage of "Covid-19 lockdown. Because, a lot of people view of GOD is so small! They might say, he is powerful, but the truth WORD of GOD means He is "Dynamite" and in this modern day era it should be He is "Atomic Nuclear" That burns Hotter than "Super Nova" would still not justify His "persona" or Character. We have used the word "Awesome" in a way like it is Beautiful, but the meaning is really "HE is A "Terrible GOD" meaning to be feared. that even Moses shook before HIM! His Holiness is so great even if a animal approach the bottom of the Mountain it would die!

I hope I answered some of the questions you referred to me, with clarity.

If Not, Go read the Book of JOB chapters 38 to 42 in a reliable and very excellent "Translation" of the "Original Copied Manuscript".


Shalom
 
Member
Ok, you said: ["I feel like you're challenging the idea of putting labels on God"] I am not into "idealism". I am not in favor of
"Idealism" pertaining to the Character of GOD. My Field of Biblical Studying of over 40 years is "Theology Proper"! My form of "Methodology of Hermeneutics" is "Historical Grammatical" approach.
And i do believe that the "Original Copied Manuscript" of The text is with out error. So in that case, i believe in the "Biblical inerrancy". which is formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

Further more i did use the term "Anthropomorphic" words and then you said i said "Holy" because the the "Original Copied Manuscript" mentions "Holy and He has always been and always will be. he has no beginning and He has no end. But A human being has a "beginning and a ending" So now we have a 'Infinite Being" communicating with a "finite" creature. So we learn these terms in Grade school. Now how can a "Finite creature" comprehend the "Incomprehensible', UNLESS, the Infinite Being, communicates in an "Anthropomorphic" forms. That a Human creature can relate to.

Example: The Bible might says; God scoop the mountains out with his hands. We know GOD does not have hands like a man, or scoop the mountains out with His hands.

The Bible says When God Look down unto the Earth and saw how wicked mankind had gotten. We know GOD does not have to look anywhere, far as we know GOD does not even have eyes. On the Mountain Sinai, the voices in the rioting camp, God heard, does not mean He has ears.

In the Garden when The Bible said: How the voice of the LORD walked in the breeze of the Day. Does not mean The "GOD ALMIGHTY "voice Has Legs. and it really walked as mankind sees walking in the breeze of the day.

And when the Bible says: that the clouds are the "Dust of His Feet" and the Earth is His footstool. The Words are "Anthropomorphic" words but God gives some understanding. Like a Mother or Father communicating to there new born child. But GOD is Greater than a Human being and not to be compared.

(Isaiah ).
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

(BSB)
You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you.
(BSB)
‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’ Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination. Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent.

For this creation was created to be destroy by GOD from the foundations of the world!
(Romans).
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit , the redemption of our body. For in [That] hope [is why] we were] saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


And lastly you said this:
"If I had created a world and creatures in the world with the direct intent to bring harm and suffering to my creation, wouldn't that make me, I don't know, a horrible person? So what does this say about God?"

But see "GOD" is not a person or Human being. No matter What GOD does in any Category he is "Holy" and Just" The "Tetragrammaton". He is not like us, nor can we comprehend that is Incomprehensible with a "finite mind". Astronomers have determine that since 2018 in October, that their ARE OVER TWO TRILLION GALAXIES IN THE UNIVERSE. And we live in the "Milky Way" Galaxie and they have discovered there are over a 100 billion "Sola systems" and a great possibility of many more. And Our "Sola System" along have about 8 or 9 Planets. Everyday they are saying they have discovered more "Galaxies", Sola Systems". Now GOD made the "Cosmos" in 7 days! And The Bible speaks about the Adopted sons of GOD will Be joint Heirs and Reign with the Only Begotten "SON of GOD" throughout eternity, a True "Inheritance" and GOD the Father IS going to make everything Brand NEW! That eyes have never saw, nor ears have ever heard of, nor enter into the mind or heart of Man, that A human mind cannot even "Comprehend" because it has not the ability to do so. This gift that GOD is Going to Give to His SON, He will share that gift with us! The whole Creation story is About GOD's SON and not us! This Love is For HIS SON! It is not about us! If you think that GOD loves the World ,more than He Loves His Only Begotten SON, "you have miss THE MARK"! If you think GOD loves you more than He loves His Son, you might have been deceived. and need to go back and read the Whole Book again with "Biblical Lexicons" and old english dictionaries , Webster's preferred. And take full advantage of "Covid-19 lockdown. Because, a lot of people view of GOD is so small! They might say, he is powerful, but the truth WORD of GOD means He is "Dynamite" and in this modern day era it should be He is "Atomic Nuclear" That burns Hotter than "Super Nova" would still not justify His "persona" or Character. We have used the word "Awesome" in a way like it is Beautiful, but the meaning is really "HE is A "Terrible GOD" meaning to be feared. that even Moses shook before HIM! His Holiness is so great even if a animal approach the bottom of the Mountain it would die!

I hope I answered some of the questions you referred to me, with clarity.

If Not, Go read the Book of JOB chapters 38 to 42 in a reliable and very excellent "Translation" of the "Original Copied Manuscript".


Shalom
Okay, but when I'm saying that God is all powerful, I'm not saying that God has green eyes. I'm also not assigning anything to God. If you believe that the Bible is the inherent word of God, then you would believe that God assigned these attributes to HIMSELF. He, Himself, says in the first book "let there be light." He, himself, through the hands of inspired prophets, says, "I am." Jesus says himself, "with God, all things are possible."
You even said so yourself:
"We know GOD does not have to look anywhere, far as we know GOD does not even have eyes. On the Mountain Sinai, the voices in the rioting camp, God heard, does not mean He has ears."And yet He sees and hears everything.
These are verses straight out of the Bible. But if you can't trust these verses because they are "translations" of a "original copied manuscript", then why should I take ANYTHING the KJV or the NIV says with a grain of salt? No. You can't claim that the Bible is the inherent word of God and dismiss the attributes of God that are listed in the Bible as "idealism".
So before I go any further, I have to ask, and you have to answer honestly. Do you believe the following to be true:
(1) God is all powerful.
(2) God is all knowing.
(3) God is all loving.
 
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Ok, i am a open book, concerning my stance pertaining to the "Original Copied Manuscript" and concerning all the different types of "translations" and "paraphrases" books that is related to "The True Word of God". My form of translating and interpretation are known. And documented. In which thousands upon thousands have used through out the centuries as well, meaning, I am not a LoneRanger concerning my methods. If your methods are "Arminianisn, Calvinistic, Pelagianism, semi- pelagianism, or more to the "Augustinian" view point. There should not be a dis-agreement concerning, "Anthropomorphic", words, " biblical imagery", "biblical Hyperbole", "biblical Motifs" and biblical termnology.
But i do know, concerning "biblical interpretations" can vary because of the various different methods that are used.
Inwhich i believe there is only one meaning concerning the biblical text that is called into question. But can have many avenues, but depends upon the swaying of the swordsman. And one must know. [verse numbers in the translations are not a part of the "Word of God", neither should they be read in such a way. And verse numbers are not anointed by GOD. Numbers where place for location of a text of scripture. Verses arrived around i think it was around 13th or 14th century.
Verses are for locating a text or event.

And to be more clear upon my believeth in the "Word of God". I fully support "The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy of 1978" that will explain everything where i stand, concerning the "True word of God" if you are interested where i stand, which is posted in Thread form right here on "TalkJesus". When you read the statement that is what i believe concerning the word of God.

Shalom
 
Member
Ok, i am a open book, concerning my stance pertaining to the "Original Copied Manuscript" and concerning all the different types of "translations" and "paraphrases" books that is related to "The True Word of God". My form of translating and interpretation are known. And documented. In which thousands upon thousands have used through out the centuries as well, meaning, I am not a LoneRanger concerning my methods. If your methods are "Arminianisn, Calvinistic, Pelagianism, semi- pelagianism, or more to the "Augustinian" view point. There should not be a dis-agreement concerning, "Anthropomorphic", words, " biblical imagery", "biblical Hyperbole", "biblical Motifs" and biblical termnology.
But i do know, concerning "biblical interpretations" can vary because of the various different methods that are used.
Inwhich i believe there is only one meaning concerning the biblical text that is called into question. But can have many avenues, but depends upon the swaying of the swordsman. And one must know. [verse numbers in the translations are not a part of the "Word of God", neither should they be read in such a way. And verse numbers are not anointed by GOD. Numbers where place for location of a text of scripture. Verses arrived around i think it was around 13th or 14th century.
Verses are for locating a text or event.

And to be more clear upon my believeth in the "Word of God". I fully support "The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy of 1978" that will explain everything where i stand, concerning the "True word of God" if you are interested where i stand, which is posted in Thread form right here on "TalkJesus". When you read the statement that is what i believe concerning the word of God.

Shalom
Okay, but do you believe that God is all powerful?
 
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Okay, but do you believe that God is all powerful?
Read the chicago statement of biblical inerrancy 1978. You should be familiar with it. We are called to go on to "maturity" and we are one in christ and we should speak the same things. The chicago staement of 1978 is what i believe. The answered is in black and white. And with biblical confirmation. "I believe GOD is GOD. Outside of that, all things comes up short and lacking.
 
Member
Read the chicago statement of biblical inerrancy 1978. You should be familiar with it. We are called to go on to "maturity" and we are one in christ and we should speak the same things. The chicago staement of 1978 is what i believe. The answered is in black and white. And with biblical confirmation. "I believe GOD is GOD. Outside of that, all things comes up short and lacking.
“We acknowledge the limitations of a document prepared in a brief, intensive conference and do not propose that this Statement be given creedal weight.” So I don’t understand why you’re referring to this document like it’s some kind of authority. The document doesn’t even see itself as any sort of authority, but let’s continue.

“God, who is Himself Truth and speaks truth only, has inspired Holy Scripture in order thereby to reveal Himself to lost mankind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is God's witness to Himself.” I yet again fail to see how this disproves my point that scripture refers to god as all powerful, knowing, and loving. If GOD HIMSELF said that he is these things through scripture.

Article one reaffirms this by saying “We affirm that the Holy Scriptures are to be received as the authoritative Word of God.”

Article 2 doesn’t make sense to me because the Bible itself was compiled by the church. Fun fact: the book of revelation almost didn’t make it into the biblical canon. Another fun fact: the concept of the Trinity was created by the church. In fact, the Trinity was heavily debated by the early church as Christians weren’t sure if Jesus was literally God or just a part of God.

I have no comment on article 3.

Article 4, however, I can see a few issues on this.

“We deny that human language is so limited by our creatureliness that it is rendered inadequate as a vehicle for divine revelation. We further deny that the corruption of human culture and language through sin has thwarted God's work of inspiration.” This is wrong on so many levels. Take Exodus 22:18 (or 22:17 if you’re reading it in the original Hebrew) “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” The original word for “witch” in the Hebrew was “mekhashepha” and what that word actually means has been lost in translation, only leaving modern Christians to modern interpretations. This is fine, right? Words are bound to be mistranslated and misinterpreted. But it’s because of this misinterpretation that led to the mass murder of thousands of alleged witches in Europe. This is just one example of the horrors of misinterpreting the Bible. And this is supposed to be the work of God’s divine inspiration?

I see a few issues with article 5 as well. Article 5 states,”We affirm that God' s revelation in the Holy Scriptures was progressive.” It’s not. It’s really, really not. History and society has proved time and time again that it’s not. First example off the top of my head would be tattoos. For a long time, and even today, tattoos and piercings were considered to be unchristian, and pastors would quote Leviticus 19:28 to reaffirm their beliefs. But now society has changed, and people, Christians included, are beginning to see tattoos and piercings as art and not a sign of delinquency. But what about Leviticus? Well, pastors are changing their tune. Instead of Leviticus banning all tattoos and piercings, it turns out Leviticus only bans tattoos and piercings that are practiced as idol worship (which is actually correct). Another, more extreme example would be slavery. Pastors used to use the Bible to condone and justify slavery because the Bible does, in fact, condone slavery. But if you bring this fact up today, modern Christians would either deny that those verses exist or try and explain away their existence in a manner similar to tattoos. The Bible is not progressive. People are progressive, and people will change the Bible to adapt to their changing views.

Article 6 says, “We deny that the inspiration of Scripture can rightly be affirmed of the whole without the parts, or of some parts but not the whole.” So with this in mind I ask you again. If the Bible says that god is all powerful, knowing, and loving, do you believe God to be all powerful, knowing, and loving? I provided scripture to back up these claims in my initial response, and yet you dismiss them with inappropriate jargon. Why can’t you honestly agree that God, according to His Word, exhibits all 3 of these attributes?

I feel like you’re hesitant to deny God’s omniscience because of article 9, which states, “We affirm that inspiration, though not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write.” But this article is saying how the authors themselves were not omniscient, but were simply inspired but God, who is omniscient.

Article 10 is actually pretty dishonest from a historical perspective. The truth of the matter is that we don’t know who a lot of the authors are in these books, (or have autographs, as the article puts it) so we have no way of confirming the actual events that happened in the Bible. In fact, this article is circular in its reasoning. If we have no way of affirming certain books in the Bible with outside sources. So in the end, you need to use the Bible to reaffirm the Bible.

I actually agree with article 11. The Bible is either fallible or infallible. It can’t be both.

I don’t agree with article 12. If science, actual science disproves something like the flood with proper evidence, then that evidence shouldn’t be dismissed. That’s just wrong. People should follow the evidence where it leads. If the evidence leads to God, then cool. If not, then you need to reevaluate some things.


Article 13, admittedly, confuses me.
“We deny that it is proper to evaluate Scripture according to standards of truth and error that are alien to its usage or purpose.”

What is the standard of truth? And what is the usage and purpose that they’re talking about? “We further deny that inerrancy is negated by Biblical phenomena such as a lack of modern technical precision, irregularities of grammar or spelling, observational descriptions of nature, the reporting of falsehoods, the use of hyperbole and round numbers, the topical arrangement of material, variant selections of material in parallel accounts, or the use of free citations.” I feel like I need to take this apart one by one.

First off, modern technical precision makes absolutely no sense. Second, nitpicking grammar is a completely valid point, especially when we’re talking about Hebrew translations. If something is off or misspelled, it’s probably important to look into it. Third, if the nature doesn’t add up to the geography, then it it doesn’t add up. I don’t know or care how the material is arranged, since that’s irrelevant to biblical inherency, and materiel from parallel accounts is also a valid point (but not in the same way you’re thinking). For example, how many women visited Jesus’ tomb? Mark says 3, Matthew says 2, Luke says at least 5, and John says 1. If all of these men are experiencing the same event at the same time, then why the heck are their accounts on basic information, ie. The number of women who visited Jesus, so vastly different? Another example would be what the tomb looked like when the women got there. Mark, Luke, and John say that the Boulder had miraculously rolled away. But Matthew says that the Boulder was still there? Or, what do the women do after they receive the good news? Mark says that they kept quiet, Matthew says that the women told the disciples, Luke writes that the women told the disciples and the rest of the city, and John writes that Mary stayed and cried while two of the disciples went home. These are very valid points that should be discussed, not tossed to the side just because a council in 1978 said so.

I can agree with article 14 to an extent. If there is an alleged error, it doesn’t automatically mean anything until it becomes a proven error.

I feel like Article 18 is the reason why you refuse to answer my question. But the thing is, I’m using *scripture* as evidence in my initial arguments. Therefore, I’m using scripture to interpret scripture. Scripture says that god is all powerful. Scripture also says that he is all knowing and all loving. But the problem of evil illustrates how it’s impossible for god to be all three and still allow evil in the world. Do you see what I’m getting at?

Article 19:
“We affirm that a confession of the full authority, infallibility, and inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of the Christian faith. We further affirm that such confession should lead to increasing conformity to the image of Christ.”
In other words, even if there is sufficient evidence that says otherwise, you should ignore it because the ultimate goal is to become more like Christ.
“We deny that such confession is necessary for salvation. However, we further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences both to the individual and to the Church.”
In other words, if you reject the inerrancy doctrine, there will be consequences, which is pretty dumb.


So there. I read it. I agreed with some points, but not a lot of them. The articles repeated over and over how the Bible is inerrant, yet failed to tackle any of the claims that said otherwise, which I did not appreciate. So if you could please stop this nonsensical appeal to authority and answer my question, please.

Do you believe that God is all powerful according to His scriptures?
Do you believe that Jesus was wrong when he said
“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Or do you agree with "For nothing will be impossible with God.”
Or what about Psalms 147:5? Do you agree with that as well?
What about Jeremiah 32:17? "‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you." Do you agree with that? Do you believe that God is the most powerful being? You're bible says that He is, multiple times, and the Bible is supposedly inherent.
Job 42:2 says "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."
Revelations 19:6 says that God is all mighty.
Isaiah 40:28 says, "Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable."
In fact, here's a whole link of verses that talk about God's unimaginable power and strength.
So I ask, once again, do you believe that God is all powerful?
If you don't, then you're going against the Holy Bible itself.
 
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A translation is not "The Holy Scripture" it is a translation, all excellent translations will declare this in the "Preface" letting the reader know that it is a "translation" with many variations and not the very words of God. and a Excellent translation will testify to the added words and phrases that was added and why. And A excellent translation will tell you how to read that "Particular' translation. with the applied if English, the grammar punctuation marks. and the English syntax as a must. and it should have a index subject chain references and along side for the reader, and replacement words plus the words that was replaced, and a must the Copyright year and why a new copyright was necessary. And also a list of those who translated that "edition" and with their credentials concerning their speciaties in "Biblical learning".

This goes forth to as well, are you Familiar with the Brothers in Christ the "Signers" and the drawers of "The Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy 1978" and why it was thought to be drawn up anew? and Why it was needful. Our God is Also is a GOD of Order. for the universe testifies to this.

If you feel, this is too taxing concerning the leading into "Theological Truth", i can truly understand it firmly. for sometimes conversations can be very tiring with me and calls for such demands of Biblical terminology,
and if not , it can be stressful. on both sides of the stream. So in being kind and thoughtful, I will relent.

Shalom
 
Member
A translation is not "The Holy Scripture" it is a translation, all excellent translations will declare this in the "Preface" letting the reader know that it is a "translation" with many variations and not the very words of God. and a Excellent translation will testify to the added words and phrases that was added and why. And A excellent translation will tell you how to read that "Particular' translation. with the applied if English, the grammar punctuation marks. and the English syntax as a must. and it should have a index subject chain references and along side for the reader, and replacement words plus the words that was replaced, and a must the Copyright year and why a new copyright was necessary. And also a list of those who translated that "edition" and with their credentials concerning their speciaties in "Biblical learning".

This goes forth to as well, are you Familiar with the Brothers in Christ the "Signers" and the drawers of "The Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy 1978" and why it was thought to be drawn up anew? and Why it was needful. Our God is Also is a GOD of Order. for the universe testifies to this.

If you feel, this is too taxing concerning the leading into "Theological Truth", i can truly understand it firmly. for sometimes conversations can be very tiring with me and calls for such demands of Biblical terminology,
and if not , it can be stressful. on both sides of the stream. So in being kind and thoughtful, I will relent.

Shalom
So are you saying that we should just throw out our Bibles? What's the point in reading the Bible to understand who God is and His plan for us if the Bible is nothing more than a translation. That no matter how much I read and study, I will never come to the theological truth?
 
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So are you saying that we should just throw out our Bibles? What's the point in reading the Bible to understand who God is and His plan for us if the Bible is nothing more than a translation. That no matter how much I read and study, I will never come to the theological truth?
"Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words, which succeeds only in leading the listeners to ruin. Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth. But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness,
 
Member
No different from what the "Adversary" told Eve in the Garden: "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:".

Jesus and The Bible has declare, there will be no peace in this world. And Christians continue to pray for a type of Peace, That GOD the Father has declared there will be none, because he is the one that will take it away. The peace we will have is when we are "born into the Family of GOD" I type of Peace the world can never know or underdstand.


New American Standard Bible
Peace I leave you, My peace I give you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, nor fearful.
John 16:33
I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!"
(Luke 6:22).
“Happy are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man.

"The True "sons of God" grows and matures in "Adversity". If no Suffering no Salavation. Three Enemies of the "sons of GOD" The World, The Flesh, The Devil, and all three are "Allies" against the True "Sons of GOD". And they work with permission from The Lord God ALmighty". And sometimes they have permisson from GOD to Kill you, showing you no mercy, But I tell you one thing, "Don't fear" because "GOD" can bring you back! Even if you have been in the grave for a Thousand years! He can wake you back up, as you if it was the next day.


"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. "While people are saying, “Peace and security,”destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.…"
I would agree there will be no peace in this world of this world . The peace of God lives in the believer to both will and empower them . It wil be complete when we recive the promise of a new incorutible body .We rest in Christ .His peace as His understaning is beyond our understanding .
 
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