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Who Is The Old Man?

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Active
Because the scriptures below are from the mind of Christ and we have been given His wisdom to understand who we are in this life, how should we understand ourselves based on these questions and scriptures?

1. According to the "mind of Christ" who is the "old man" that has been crucified with Christ?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man "is" crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

2. According to the mind of Christ is the "old man" truly passed away?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things "are" passed away; behold, all things are become new.

3. If the "old man" is passed away, why is it that a believer must "put-off" the old man?

Ephesians 4:22
That you put off concerning the former behavior of the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:24
And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

All this being said... Who is the old man and are we actually dead to the old man?
 
Loyal
All this being said... Who is the old man and are we actually dead to the old man?
Old man is the old nature.
Dead to the old man?
Now that depends on how much of Gods Word we have in us AND how much we actually put into practice.

We need to crucify the flesh daily or rather at all times.
Blessings
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Old man is the old nature.
Dead to the old man?
Now that depends on how much of Gods Word we have in us AND how much we actually put into practice.

We need to crucify the flesh daily or rather at all times.
Blessings
I agree the old man is the old nature... Because this is a factual statement, does scripture teach a believer "is dead" to the old nature? If so what does that mean?
 
Loyal
is dead" to the old nature? If so what does that mean?
I thought I had answered that with.....
Now that depends on how much of Gods Word we have in us AND how much we actually put into practice.

We need to crucify the flesh daily or rather at all times.

The power over us has been broken. The old nature is still there but we can now keep it submitted to the new nature or Spirit.
However we will at times have to say....Stay Down Dead man!! :wink:
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
I thought I had answered that with.....
Now that depends on how much of Gods Word we have in us AND how much we actually put into practice.

We need to crucify the flesh daily or rather at all times.

The power over us has been broken. The old nature is still there but we can now keep it submitted to the new nature or Spirit.
However we will at times have to say....Stay Down Dead man!! :wink:
To be honest, you didn't answer the question as scripture teaches. It seems you answered the question through your interpretation of what seems to make sense. I was looking for what scripture teaches about believers being "dead to the nature." I'm sure it doesn't teach a believer is dead to the "nature" based on how much word he or she has in them. No disrespect. I believe we need to "die" daily as Paul teaches, but I don't believe we crucify the flesh daily. I believe our flesh was crucified "once" with Christ. As far as dying to self, we die to the devil's offerings daily, by saying no and resting his emotional temptations.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man "IS"crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin/Satan.

I agree the power over us has been broken, but the "old nature" or the "old man" is not in us and we are not in the old nature. A man is either "IN" Christ or "IN" Adam. No man can be alive to both nature. Believers died to the "old nature" when we were grafted "out" of it at the time of our conversion. At which time Christ gave us a new heart.

Galatians 2:20
I "AM" crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The key word in this verse is "faith." We as believers are in a body of flesh naturally, but not alive spiritually in it. A believer's life is in Christ which is in God (Col. 3:3).We don't live by our sense of understanding in the world if we are dead or not. Our faith is only based on what God's word says about us according to the principles laid down for us by Christ. Every believer died with Christ. Your old man is not passed away because of anything you have done, but everything Christ has done for you. Remember, our fight is not with ourselves, but we fight against spiritual wickedness. We are telling the devil to flee.
 
Loyal
I'm sure it doesn't teach a believer is dead to the "nature" based on how much word he or she has in them. No disrespect. I believe we need to "die" daily as Paul teaches, but I don't believe we crucify the flesh daily
Greetings Brother,
No disrespect taken!!

Let's think for a moment.
We can not do this in our own strength. It must be done through Christ.
How do we get more Christ in us? By getting more of Gods Word in us but we must also be doing the Word.

Less Word equals Less strength or less ability to keep the old nature down. It is OUR Responsibility to do this. Its not up to Jesus. He already did his part.

Scripture teaches us we must Renew the mind. This is Daily.
This takes getting more word in you.

Brother to die daily is crucifying the flesh. Its the same thing. When we die daily, what is dying? Its the flesh that we are crucifying by putting it under the submission of the Spirit.

That is also equated to learning to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.

Blessings
Wired
 
Loyal
I agree the power over us has been broken, but the "old nature" or the "old man" is not in us and we are not in the old nature.
Greetings Again Brother,
Actually the old nature is always in you. It can not be taken out but it can be kept silent or close to being silent.

If we took you out back and slammed your hand in the car door, we will quickly see how dead that old man really is.

Blessings
 
Loyal
Remember, our fight is not with ourselves, but we fight against spiritual wickedness. We are telling the devil to flee.
Yes we do, but if we are not submitted unto Christ, the devil ain't running in terror from you.

So if you yielded unto satan he ain't fleeing from you.

Doubt, fear, temper and so forth is yielding. That's entirely another thread.
Blessings
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Greetings Brother,
No disrespect taken!!

Let's think for a moment.
We can not do this in our own strength. It must be done through Christ.
How do we get more Christ in us? By getting more of Gods Word in us but we must also be doing the Word.

Less Word equals Less strength or less ability to keep the old nature down. It is OUR Responsibility to do this. Its not up to Jesus. He already did his part.
Scripture teaches us we must Renew the mind. This is Daily.
This takes getting more word in you.

Brother to die daily is crucifying the flesh. Its the same thing. When we die daily, what is dying? Its the flesh that we are crucifying by putting it under the submission of the Spirit.

That is also equated to learning to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.

Blessings
Wired
I agree, we cannot do this in our own strength; we do it through the Word of God giving us direction. Though Christ have delivered us from the dominion and power of the devil, we are still "blinded" without God's word leading us. The question is asked in Psalms, how shall a young man cleanse his ways - by taking heed unto the word of God (Psa. 119:9). We don't get Christ in us (He's there). We get Christ's word in us so we can have the direction to freedom in "manifestation" while in this body. We get Christ's word in us so we can inherit the promises of rest and peace in manifestation and not having the promises in the realm of faith only. It is agreed we must "do" the word. And yes it is our responsibility to get God's word into us and renew our minds. But as I said, we renew our mind to know what we need to do according to God's will for us to manifestly inherit all the promises promised us in spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3). If we sow God's word into our hearts, and we or another waters it, God has already promised He "will" give the increase. Only God can exalt us; but He won't exalt us if we are not obedient to His word. How can we know what to do without God's word in our hearts. We as believers can never exalt ourselves, but we can believe God, by faith, to exalt us providing we have been obedient.

I do agree that renewing our mind daily is dying to thoughts we may still have. But if we see ourselves after the flesh we haven't been born again. If we see ourselves after the flesh we are not in the Heavenly places in Christ. If we understand ourselves after the flesh, we are not a new creation that has never existed before. If we see ourselves in the flesh we can't see ourselves in Christ and everything we do would be in the flesh. Everything we do and understand ourselves by is through faith. This is why scrupture teaches the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God (1Cor. 2:14). If we see ourselves after or in the flesh according to our thinking, we cannot be lead by the Spirit.
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Greetings Again Brother,
Actually the old nature is always in you. It can not be taken out but it can be kept silent or close to being silent.

If we took you out back and slammed your hand in the car door, we will quickly see how dead that old man really is.

Blessings
If my hand was slammed in a car door, I would definitely feel it. Not because i'm in the flesh spiritually, but because naturally i'm in a physical body. My physical being is not who I am. It may be how naturally I interact in this physical world, but I spiritually have the consciousness of Christ, or I have the consciousness of this fleshly fallen nature.

Romans 11:24
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (flesh), and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the body if Christ): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

This tells us we have been cut out of the nature of the old man (Adam's sinful nature) and grafted into the nature of Christ.

Israel was broken off and Gentile believers were grafted into Israel's covenant. Israel will be grafted back in.

The "flesh" (in the context of the devil) is referring to the thinking and ways of the devil, not living in this fleshly body. If the person is born again he has Grace to learn how to conduct himself. Grace allow for believers to renew their mind without God being angry with them and seeing them as a part of the condemned which are in the flesh.

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Colossians 3:3
For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

You are looking at the old nature according to a fleshly mindset that doesn't understand what's being said. Once again no respect. You are not saying what scripture teaches. If you are born of the Spirit, you have died to the flesh spiritually. Just because we feel temptations while living in this fleshly body doesn't make us fleshly beings. They that are born of the flesh are flesh; and the that are born of the Spirit is Spirit (Joh. 3:6). Once we become born again we are no longer in the flesh according to God spiritually. This is a "faith" walk calling those things which literally are not - as though they were (Rom. 4:17). It's not how you see yourself in the flesh, but who God tells you you are in the Spirit. God (not me) said believers are dead to the flesh spiritually.

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

A believer can live "after" the flesh, but they cannot be "in" the flesh because they died to the flesh. This is why old things have passed away (being born of Adam) and all things have become new in Christ.

You haven't really answed what being dead to the flesh mean to you? According to scripture references...
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Yes we do, but if we are not submitted unto Christ, the devil ain't running in terror from you.

So if you yielded unto satan he ain't fleeing from you.

Doubt, fear, temper and so forth is yielding. That's entirely another thread.
Blessings
If a believer submit themselves to God and resist the devil, he will flee (Jam. 4:7). If a person tries to defeat the devil through the devil's wisdom they will lose, but it doesn't affect the believers position in Christ. Believers are not of the world by faith as long as the Spirit of God dwells in them and they are in Christ. A believer can live after the flesh (the devils wisdom), or the wisdom of Christ. Believers have been "bought" with a price and they are not their own; they are Christ. A believer can never live "in" the flesh as long as they have been born again and is in the body of Christ. If the believer continue to live "after" the flesh (Satan's wisdom)they will die.

If you are saying believers fight against themselves, this is one area of your stumbling. If scripture teaches believers do not fight against flesh and blood, and any believer speaks contrary to scripture instead of allowing the foundation of the scripture to stand, it opens the door to confusion.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If any believer speaks against any of God word contrary to what it says in context, they open the door to the wisdom of the devil. Not saying that you are purposefully doing this, but if your information is contrary to scripture it is obviously wrong. Let God's word stand in your heart and build around the truth.
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Post #9 I said if we see ourselves "after" the flesh we are not born again. I miss posted in error. Meaning to say if we see ourselves after the flesh, we see ourselves from the mind of Satan. A believer can live "after" the flesh, but a believer can never be "in" the flesh.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (unbelievers)

Romans 8:12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

We were "in" the flesh but not any more.

Romans 7:5
For when we "WERE" " in" the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
 
Loyal
If my hand was slammed in a car door, I would definitely feel it. Not because i'm in the flesh spiritually, but because naturally i'm in a physical body. My physical being is not who I am. It may be how naturally I interact in this physical world, but I spiritually have the consciousness of Christ, or I have the consciousness of this fleshly fallen nature.
Its not what you feel!!
Its what comes out of your mouth and your actions.
 
Loyal
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (unbelievers)
Not so Brother. This is talking about Believers.
Know it alls are in the flesh.
Unforgiveness and pushy and spouting off and bickering and bossy and anger and harshness and insisting on having your way are but a few characteristics of the flesh.
It does not take an unbeliever to show these traits.

Blessings
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Not so Brother. This is talking about Believers.
Know it alls are in the flesh.
Unforgiveness and pushy and spouting off and bickering and bossy and anger and harshness and insisting on having your way are but a few characteristics of the flesh.
It does not take an unbeliever to show these traits.

Blessings
Everything you spoke of in this post is making my point. "Know it alls" of God's word cannot be in the flesh because they know better. And they know what verse 8:9 says. I never said a believer was not in a physical body of flesh; and never said God was not pleased with believers in a fleshly body. I explained God sees believers in the Spirit, not in the flesh spiritually. A man is either in the Spirit or in the flesh. If a person is in the flesh, they cannot please God because they are in Satan's camp. A believer is not in Satan's camp. If you would have read the context you would have understood what I was saying.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are "IN" the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9
But you (Believers) "are not" "IN" the flesh, but "IN" the Spirit, "IF" so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, "he is none of his."

If a person does not have the Spirit of God, they are "IN" the flesh.
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Its not what you feel!!
Its what comes out of your mouth and your actions.
I don't curse... And i've been bringing my mind and body into subjection to obedience to God word (emotionally) for many years. A man's character is only what they exercise. What you exercise is what will come out. Unbeliever realize the art of exercising pain tolerance for entertainment. It's all in what you practice. Martial artist also teach pain tolerance and control of the mind, but there way is not of God.
 
Active
@Wired 4 Fishen,
Its the same thing
How are they same according to scripture? Remember, you can't make your case without scripture. That would be carnal wisdom. If a person doesn't say what scripture says, at least through other scriptures, confusion sets in. If I give you a scripture that explains - once a person becomes born again they are no longer "IN" the flesh, but they are "IN" the Spirit and you reject the scripture I gave, you should give me scripture that teaches a believe can be "IN"the flesh though they are born again.

Scripture talks about being "in" the flesh in two ways according to the context. The first way is being literally in a physical body and the second way is spiritually.

2 Corinthians 10:2
But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we walk "IN" the flesh, we do not war "AFTER" the flesh:
2 Corinthians 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds:wink:

Romans 8:9
But you "ARE NOT IN" the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Scripture teaches we "WERE" in the flesh when we sinned according to the law (flesh); but we've been delivered from both.

Romans 7:5
For when "WE WERE" (past tense) "IN" the flesh, the motions of sins, which "WERE" by the law, "did work" (past tense) in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7:6
But now "WE ARE DELIVERED" from the "law," that "being dead" wherein we were held; that we should serve in "newness of spirit", and not in the oldness of the letter.

Because a believer is "IN" the Spirit of God, no man can pluck themselves out of the body of Christ. We are in Christ until the day of judgment.
 
Loyal
How are they same according to scripture? Remember, you can't make your case without scripture. That would be carnal wisdom. If a person doesn't say what scripture says, at least through other scriptures, confusion sets in.
Brother it helps when you include what you are referring to with your quote and stay on that topic.

Scripture is good and needed but just as important is understanding.

Blessings
 
Loyal
If a person does not have the Spirit of God, they are "IN" the flesh.
Brother I do read what you write.

Believers have the Spirit of God and still have flesh or old nature to deal with.

Unbelievers have not the Spirit of God but the Spirit of man and dwell in the flesh.

When a believer gets over in the flesh they still have the Spirit of God in them and are still saved.

Blessings
 
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