• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 13,000 members today

    Register Log In

Where do we draw the line(GRACE)?

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Active
So my question is where do we draw the line when it comes to Grace?
When does it change from being gracious and merciful(positive) to
being enabling and an accomplice to evil(negative).

It is no surprise that we are to forgive others and show mercy, it is all over the Bible.
Verses like turning the other cheek remind us that we are to endure a lot so God can
get the glory. Now where is the line drawn or what part does wisdom have to do with discerning
how much is too much, or counterproductive?

Is death too much? It wasn't for Jesus, because even though He came to die, God does not
need man's help in accomplishing His will. So even though Jesus was persecuted unto death,
He still didn't fight back. He however did run away on several occasions as His time had not yet come.

When I think about Grace I think about giving people what they don't deserve.

So for example, if you are driving in a car and the other driver cuts you off. I hope we would all
agree that we should be gracious and not go into a fit of road rage.
But if you see a someone about to commit a sexual assault, you wouldn't of course say, "Well this
person deserves for me to call the police, but I'm going to be gracious and not call the police."
In that situation you would actually be contributing to that crime by not stopping it(in a sense).

In the Bible I think about evidences of Grace being the city of Ninevah who repented and God did not bring about
judgement and Zacheus the tax collector, but the people in Noah's Day and Sodom & Gomorrah received judgement.

It seems to me that perhaps maybe to give Grace the person needs to be in a state of repentance and having arrived
at the fact that what they did was wrong? I'm asking. For example Zacheus repented as well as the town of Nineveh, so God could give them Grace, but perhaps Sodom and Gomorrah who never repented could not continue to receive Grace because if God didn't put an end to the madness He would have been allowing a lot of evil to continue. I imagine there were children being abused in Sodom and woman be assaulted as well and if God had continued to give them Grace He would actually be allowing for the harm of the innocent to continue.

But then again repentance doesn't seem like a prerequisite to Grace because Christ died for us while we
we yet sinners.

":But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans -5:8

I'm just thinking out loud. What are your thoughts in turns of where the Grace line is drawn
in the Bible and where are we as Believers to draw the line as well? For God He can do what
He wants, as God said

"And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." - Exodus 33:19

But for us, we are not God so we can't just say we will pick and choose who we will have mercy on and who we will not, so what is our guideline for where to draw the line?

Perhaps Love plays are factor?
Perhaps the thought of are we sowing a good seed?
Perhaps if God will be glorified by our actions should be a factor?

What are your thoughts?
 
Loyal
There is a difference between loving, forgiving and being an accomplice.

When Jesus said you should forgive seventy times seven, was He really putting a limit on grace?
Or was He really saying... you need to forgive a LOT. You need to be concerned with forgiving
and not with keeping score. Are we really supposed to stop forgiving on number 491 ?
For that matter, should we even be counting how many times we forgave someone?

(Have you sinned more than 490 times?)

Matt 5:39; But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Matt 5:40; If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Matt 5:41; Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Matt 5:42; Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Should we stop giving grace because someone doesn't like us? Because they are suing us?

Luke 6:27; “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luke 6:28; bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Luke 6:29; Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.
Luke 6:30; Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.
Luke 6:31; Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.
Luke 6:32; If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luke 6:33; If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luke 6:34; If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.
Luke 6:35; But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Luke 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Luke 17:3; says.. if your brother sins, (rebuke him) and "IF" he repents, forgive him.

It doesn't say if he deserves it forgive him. It doesn't say if he hasn't done it before forgive him.
It doesn't say as long as the sin doesn't affect you forgive him. It just says forgive.

From what I can tell.... there should not be a limit on grace.

But this doesn't mean we should take part in their crime. Should we hide a killer from the police?
Should we protect a child molester? Should we lie and say we don't know where the thief went to?

There comes a point where we go past love and forgiveness... and simply become a part of the crime
(or sin).
 
Active
If someone is drowning and we rescue them would we be enabling them to possibly drown again?
I guess they should have taken swimming lessons right?
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Hello brother @Jesus_is_LORD

Good question to ask!

First one really must define Grace. Remembering to keep in mind that in defining it. The application of it and the shape and form it takes. Consideration should also, be taken in the person receiving it. Is it being asked for or not?

I've seen how Grace works through many as a method by which those who have the ability both spiritually or temporally to favor another has been put into practice by what Jesus showed them and us.

Now I do believe that by Grace we receive spiritual gifts which we can give or withhold as the Spirit moves us to do. Too often we look to be the purveyor of who is deserving or not. As in there walk, or behavior according to a template self created out of scripture. Instead of looking to the need of that person without preconditions. A good example is the parable of the Good Samaritan. Who would you say gave freely and who withheld when able to? Who did right? Did the others do wrong? What were the reasons for each doing what they did?

The question you ask is valid. To the alcoholic do you give them alcohol? Continue that with just about anything. Do you benefit them by giving or withholding? Instead, one should look beyond appearances and seek the deeper need. Which can only truly be filled as we know through Jesus Christ. Always remember you are a representative of Jesus to the world and your actions can effect whether another answers the knock or barricades the door.

Too often for fear of being taken advantage of we lean towards doing little or nothing. Take the extra step instead; in faith and know that the Grace you have been showered with, will find a way to touch that other one who is in need. For they will see that you are doing this not with eyes closed as in being conned, but with eyes wide open. As a Child of the Most High.

Try this example. Someone is holding a sign that says "Money, to buy food, please help". Do you give the person money? or Do you take the extra step and say to this person "Let's go shopping for some food" or even offer to buy them a meal?

God's resources are unlimited and His methods endless. Do not constrain the work of the Holy Spirit through you, but open yourself to His overflowing power. He will be the guide and the power of the Word of God.......So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

For the gifts that you have through the Grace of God is more then just the healing or taking care of the flesh, but an avenue by which their spirits may be saved through Christ Jesus! There is much work to do. Little time left to do it.

With the tender Love of Jesus my brother.
YBIC
C4E
<><
 
Active
There is a difference between loving, forgiving and being an accomplice.

When Jesus said you should forgive seventy times seven, was He really putting a limit on grace?
Or was He really saying... you need to forgive a LOT. You need to be concerned with forgiving
and not with keeping score. Are we really supposed to stop forgiving on number 491 ?
For that matter, should we even be counting how many times we forgave someone?

(Have you sinned more than 490 times?)

Matt 5:39; But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Matt 5:40; If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Matt 5:41; Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Matt 5:42; Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Should we stop giving grace because someone doesn't like us? Because they are suing us?

Luke 6:27; “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luke 6:28; bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Luke 6:29; Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.
Luke 6:30; Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.
Luke 6:31; Treat others the same way you want them to treat you.
Luke 6:32; If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luke 6:33; If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luke 6:34; If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.
Luke 6:35; But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Luke 6:36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Luke 17:3; says.. if your brother sins, (rebuke him) and "IF" he repents, forgive him.

It doesn't say if he deserves it forgive him. It doesn't say if he hasn't done it before forgive him.
It doesn't say as long as the sin doesn't affect you forgive him. It just says forgive.

From what I can tell.... there should not be a limit on grace.

But this doesn't mean we should take part in their crime. Should we hide a killer from the police?
Should we protect a child molester? Should we lie and say we don't know where the thief went to?

There comes a point where we go past love and forgiveness... and simply become a part of the crime
(or sin).
I definitely agree with the distinction between sin and grace and the fact that we should have no limit on forgiveness. Thanks for articulating that well
 
Active
Hello brother @Jesus_is_LORD

Good question to ask!

First one really must define Grace. Remembering to keep in mind that in defining it. The application of it and the shape and form it takes. Consideration should also, be taken in the person receiving it. Is it being asked for or not?

I've seen how Grace works through many as a method by which those who have the ability both spiritually or temporally to favor another has been put into practice by what Jesus showed them and us.

Now I do believe that by Grace we receive spiritual gifts which we can give or withhold as the Spirit moves us to do. Too often we look to be the purveyor of who is deserving or not. As in there walk, or behavior according to a template self created out of scripture. Instead of looking to the need of that person without preconditions. A good example is the parable of the Good Samaritan. Who would you say gave freely and who withheld when able to? Who did right? Did the others do wrong? What were the reasons for each doing what they did?

The question you ask is valid. To the alcoholic do you give them alcohol? Continue that with just about anything. Do you benefit them by giving or withholding? Instead, one should look beyond appearances and seek the deeper need. Which can only truly be filled as we know through Jesus Christ. Always remember you are a representative of Jesus to the world and your actions can effect whether another answers the knock or barricades the door.

Too often for fear of being taken advantage of we lean towards doing little or nothing. Take the extra step instead; in faith and know that the Grace you have been showered with, will find a way to touch that other one who is in need. For they will see that you are doing this not with eyes closed as in being conned, but with eyes wide open. As a Child of the Most High.

Try this example. Someone is holding a sign that says "Money, to buy food, please help". Do you give the person money? or Do you take the extra step and say to this person "Let's go shopping for some food" or even offer to buy them a meal?

God's resources are unlimited and His methods endless. Do not constrain the work of the Holy Spirit through you, but open yourself to His overflowing power. He will be the guide and the power of the Word of God.......So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

For the gifts that you have through the Grace of God is more then just the healing or taking care of the flesh, but an avenue by which their spirits may be saved through Christ Jesus! There is much work to do. Little time left to do it.

With the tender Love of Jesus my brother.
YBIC
C4E
<><
Much appreciated, well said.

I like how you spoke about the person asking for money because I make it a habit to try to buy them food.

Good points to think about. Thanks for taking the time to answer. Hope the work day was blessed.
 
Loyal
Matt 5:42; Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
There are so many examples, what if a guy asks for money and you know it is to buy drugs.

I would suggest, be a good steward, ask what he wants the money for, he will not say it is for drugs, see what he says then suggest you get him what he as just asked for.

We know the devil prowls looking for who and what to devour next, we should be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. To God be the Glory.

Try this example. Someone is holding a sign that says "Money, to buy food, please help". Do you give the person money? or Do you take the extra step and say to this person "Let's go shopping for some food" or even offer to buy them a meal?
I like how you spoke about the person asking for money because I make it a habit to try to buy them food.
This one is a interesting one, I have suggested for some time that people are better to give food and drink to a beggar than give him money. What does he need most, food, drink, clothing and shelter. Jesus said,

Matthew 25:35-36 (ASV)
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

In a local paper this last month there was a story of a beggar near town, begging all day, at the end of the day he walked down a few side roads before getting in a £35k car! I think Matthew 25 above sums up what we should do.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Matthew 25:35-36 (ASV)
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

In a local paper this last month there was a story of a beggar near town, begging all day, at the end of the day he walked down a few side roads before getting in a £35k car! I think Matthew 25 above sums up what we should do.
Notice in Matthew that it doesn't say "I asked for money and you gave me cash". Such wolves as you mention, would learn a good lesson if everyone addressed the underlining issue rather than trying to assuage their own conscience by giving money. It would just require a little more time/effort on each persons part.

There are also stories out there that do reflect the heart of Jesus. That they aren't advertised much which is obvious. Yet, they don't need to be. For the God who sees all things, and sees this as well.
Thanks brother for the Matthew verses. They were spot on.
YBIC
C4E
<><
 
Loyal
The giving of money or otherwise in these situations is giving to God.

Some people do appear to have a cord to their money that doesn't like to leave them, almost as an umbilical cord!

People who think this way, haven't put in God care, everything He has allowed us to have and use to His Glory.

The giving to the beggar is the same principle as Matthew 25:35-36 above.

Yes there are many stories of giving to God's Glory, I included the one of the beggar and the expensive car as it was so recent, it was also used as an example, a homeless person usually needs food, water, clothes and a roof and would be very happy to receive these instead of money.

To God be the Glory
 
Loyal
There is another gift.

First we give to the beggar food, or water, or clothing, or all of them, giving what ever we can from our heart, our gift is from what God has already given us, we are stewards of God's gifts the items He has blessed us with, blessed us with to share with those less fortunate than ourselves.

But when we give, we also pray, we pray for God to Bless the person and the gift through Jesus Christ our Lord.

May the beggars heart be changed, may God take and use the gift and the prayers and may He be Glorified.

The gift to the beggar is of enormous value, all he thought he needed was food, drink, clothing and shelter, the gift the beggar doesn't see is of far more value, it came from our hearts, it came from what God has given us, it came with God's love, it came with prayer though Jesus Christ our Lord who says in Matthew 25

35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

it's good to see the harmony of love here, evidence of grace.

May I suggest something about one Scripture that has been looked at here, not wanting to take from anything written so far but to encourage something more?

Matthew 25:35-36 (ASV)
for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


If someone cares to expand on the following, please do.
Jesus is the Bread of Life and the Water of Life....
a person can be hungry or thirsty for that which comes only from the LORD, wanting and needing and seeking to be filled and for their soul to find rest and peace.
By Grace we have received, freely, so let us give, freely. The same applies with a stranger and naked and sick and in prison.
Come unto me, said the LORD, be clothed, be comforted and healed...
and be set free.

We can overlook this way of seeing by looking only to the natural man, to the things of the flesh.

What does it profit a man... if he loses his soul?

Are we always ready and are we willing to do that which the Spirit speaks to us about, concerning those we see and meet? Or do we look only at the things seen and forget to listen?

Now I know the LORD and His Grace, I know that I would rather have Him, His Life, than anything else. Please don't read into this wrongly, for i am not saying that the things like food and drink and physical needs are to be ignored and that this sort of giving is to be refuted, BUT I am saying that we need to, we must, listen to the LORD and do that which He gives us unction to do This is well pleasing to Him.

Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal
So my question is where do we draw the line when it comes to Grace?
When does it change from being gracious and merciful(positive) to
being enabling and an accomplice to evil(negative).

It is no surprise that we are to forgive others and show mercy, it is all over the Bible.
Verses like turning the other cheek remind us that we are to endure a lot so God can
get the glory. Now where is the line drawn or what part does wisdom have to do with discerning
how much is too much, or counterproductive?

Is death too much? It wasn't for Jesus, because even though He came to die, God does not
need man's help in accomplishing His will. So even though Jesus was persecuted unto death,
He still didn't fight back. He however did run away on several occasions as His time had not yet come.

When I think about Grace I think about giving people what they don't deserve.

So for example, if you are driving in a car and the other driver cuts you off. I hope we would all
agree that we should be gracious and not go into a fit of road rage.
But if you see a someone about to commit a sexual assault, you wouldn't of course say, "Well this
person deserves for me to call the police, but I'm going to be gracious and not call the police."
In that situation you would actually be contributing to that crime by not stopping it(in a sense).

In the Bible I think about evidences of Grace being the city of Ninevah who repented and God did not bring about
judgement and Zacheus the tax collector, but the people in Noah's Day and Sodom & Gomorrah received judgement.

It seems to me that perhaps maybe to give Grace the person needs to be in a state of repentance and having arrived
at the fact that what they did was wrong? I'm asking. For example Zacheus repented as well as the town of Nineveh, so God could give them Grace, but perhaps Sodom and Gomorrah who never repented could not continue to receive Grace because if God didn't put an end to the madness He would have been allowing a lot of evil to continue. I imagine there were children being abused in Sodom and woman be assaulted as well and if God had continued to give them Grace He would actually be allowing for the harm of the innocent to continue.

But then again repentance doesn't seem like a prerequisite to Grace because Christ died for us while we
we yet sinners.

":But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans -5:8

I'm just thinking out loud. What are your thoughts in turns of where the Grace line is drawn
in the Bible and where are we as Believers to draw the line as well? For God He can do what
He wants, as God said

"And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." - Exodus 33:19

But for us, we are not God so we can't just say we will pick and choose who we will have mercy on and who we will not, so what is our guideline for where to draw the line?

Perhaps Love plays are factor?
Perhaps the thought of are we sowing a good seed?
Perhaps if God will be glorified by our actions should be a factor?

What are your thoughts?
What is your definition of grace? I ask this because so many Christians seem to confuse grace with mercy, which are two different things
 
Loyal
What is your definition of grace? I ask this because so many Christians seem to confuse grace with mercy, which are two different things
I think you may be right, but I think it's probably a very fine line with a lot of crossover.
Can you explain further?
 
Active

RJ

I don't draw the line, God has done that for me: Ephesians 2:8-9
Pretty simple, since it is his gift to me, it must be free unless I could boast!!!
 
Active
What is your definition of grace? I ask this because so many Christians seem to confuse grace with mercy, which are two different things
I'll give a simple real world definition, though I could give you theological textbook definition.

Perhaps I'm not really even speaking about Grace. I think I'm more speaking about
when is saying no to someone ok. At times as Christians we feel that it is a problem to say no, or to cut someone off, or to take an action that will allow someone to receive consequences for their actions.

So instead of Grace, I'm really talking about a term (lets call it , "THE LINE"), that encompasses all these
(1) Saying no
(2) Cutting someone off
(3) Allowing someone to face the consequences for their actions


Though there is overlap with Grace.

So to example "THE LINE". I would say, for example many may not draw "THE LINE"
and say no(1) because they want to help a hungry person and feel that we are to do so as
Christians. Or one may not draw "THE LINE" and cut off a bad relationship (2) because they
feel that they are to always forgive and be available to share God's love into someone's life.
Or one may not draw, "THE LINE" and allow someone to face the consequence for their actions(3)
say legal consequences that may teach a lesson and save from future worst headache, because
they feel we need to be mercy.

So that is my definition, I'll call it drawing "THE LINE" and it is defined above in red.
 
Active
I think we don't really need to distinguish between Grace and Mercy as they are both rooted in love.

I think my underlining question is, are there general guidelines of wisdom that you use when you do need
to say no, or cut someone off, or allow someone to face a consequence?

Since saying no doesn't mean that you aren't acting in love(Grace & Mercy), and cutting someone off
for a time(example a child molester from your kids) doesn't mean you're not acting in love,
or allowing someone to face the consequences for their actions (like a child to pay their own speeding ticket
instead of bailing them out, to teach them responsibility) doesn't mean you aren't acting in love.

FYI, I tend to be accused of being too soft. I'm trying to grow in wisdom.
Perhaps that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

So what are the guidelines of wisdom that you use when you need
to say no, or cut someone off, or allow someone to face a consequence?
 
Loyal
What is Grace?

Greek Strong's Number: 5485
Greek Word:
χάρις
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Pronunciation:khar'-ece
Root: from <G5463>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 9:372,1298
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Accept, Accepted, Acceptable, Benefit, Benefactor, Favor, Favored, Grace, Liberal, Liberality, Liberally, Thank, Thanks, Thankful, Thankfulness, Thanksgiving, Thankworthy
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
grace 130
favour 6
thanks 4
thank 4
thank + <G2192> 3
pleasure 2
miscellaneous translations 7
[Total Count: 156]
from <G5463> (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Taken from... Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Grace is a free gift from God, that cannot be earned, a divine influence on the heart.
 
Loyal
Grace is getting what you don't deserve
Mercy is not getting what you deserve.

I think they are the opposing expressions of the same thing
 
Top