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When was the Fall of Man?

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After having a conversation about the events that took place in the garden of Eden and the first three chapters of Genesis, I was led to believe that the fall of man happened on day 6 of creation before God saw all that he had made and declared that it was very good.

It is all linked into what God said and to whom he said it. Beginning in Chapter one we find:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

26 The decision to make man and give him dominion.

27 The finished creation of man both male and female.

28 The blessing to multiply, fill and subdue the earth.

Chapter 2 begins with verse 4 to say:

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This obviously is part of verse 27 from Chapter 1. As 26 is the decision to make man and 27 has the finished product of both Adam and Eve. The rest of chapter 2 must fit into this time frame then as well.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


At this point in the day God has made both Adam and Eve and given them of every tree in the garden to eat. And they were naked and not ashamed. Chapter 3 explains for us that they didn't originally know that they were naked as God asked Adam "Who told thee thou wast naked?". and so we can comfortably say that chapter 2 fits inside of chapter 1 verse 27.

Chapter 3: The fall.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


It isn't until after the fall that God gives the herb of the field to Adam as food. Keeping this in mind lets return to chapter one to see where it all fits into creation week.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

And we see that the addition of herb bearing seed is added after the blessing they were given to be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth with dominion. So the fall has to be before verse 28 concluding that the fall happened on day 6 before the close of the day where God said:

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So it was after the fall and sin and death had entered into the world that God saw everything he had made and it was very good. This seems wrong to me in so many ways but I can't seem to follow the logic of the scriptures otherwise. It seems God set everything into motion and has been busy perfecting his 'very good' creation by defining and destroying evil as he goes. God is light, there is no darkness in him at all. But that doesn't mean that evil was not part of his plan to refine creation for his son Jesus to rule and reign over eternally.

In Jesus Name,

Gary
 
Member
Evil refined creation.

gdemoss
But that doesn't mean that evil was not part of his plan to refine creation for his son Jesus to rule and reign over eternally.

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

peirazō Tempteth
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
Luk 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
Luk 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

Jesus reigns eternally over the heavens and earth to say evil was part of the plan to refine that, would mean God has to use evil to also refine heaven, it means God's kingdom is divided and in league with Satan.

If God is not using Evil in Heaven, then God must have two wills and Jesus was confused.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

WE see man disobey God, and get the fruit of his doings, normally that resulted in evil.

Because evil came from disobedience, then to say God uses evil to refine his plan is to say it's God's will to also be disobedient to him.

Please provide a supportive scripture stating that God used evil to refine his creation.

Thank you.

Jesus is Lord.
 
Member
Provided scripture

I provided the scripture already?

Glad to be of help, but I am not sure which one that is.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Member
Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

This one works. God uses evil for his own purpose of refining Israel. Same reason to send them into captivity etc. God is not in league with Satan but his kingdom became divided when Satan fell who was part of it. In the end God removes all which offends and is left with a kingdom that is no longer divided.

Gary
 
Active
This one works. God uses evil for his own purpose of refining Israel. Same reason to send them into captivity etc. God is not in league with Satan
I agree with this statement and I feel it can be supported.

but his kingdom became divided when Satan fell who was part of it
I would like to understand how you came to this conclusion though.
Unless your going to use the Dante version of a pre earth Lucifer.
You already know I won't buy that.
From Wikipedia:
It is uncertain when precisely the Isaiah passage, which in its Latin translation contains the name "Lucifer", began to be applied to Satan, but it was certainly used in this way by 3rd-century Origen,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-3">[4]</sup> and some scholars claim that the identification of "Lucifer" with the Devil was first made by Origen, Tertullian and Augustine of Hippo.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-4">[5]</sup>
The interpretation is suspect.
If you don't like Wikipedia check out some site you trust.

If you have other scriptures that support your position please share them.
Peace
 
Member
God is not evil

This one works. God uses evil for his own purpose of refining Israel. Same reason to send them into captivity etc. God is not in league with Satan

Thiscrosshurts:
I agree with this statement and I feel it can be supported.


Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:(Demonic Powers) all things were created by him, and for him:

God does not use evil for his purpose. God is opposed to evil.

Satan came not but to Kill, Steal and destroy.
Jesus came to give life.

God is not using things in his Kingdom to destroy things, Satan is not using things in his Kingdom to cast out his own devils.

God takes not pleasure in the death of the Wicked, He takes no pleasure in the evil things that befall man. This is not in his purpose to set up anyone to fail. He has done his best to set things up so things succeed.

Failure comes when this happens.

Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

God gave his word to men, those that did not keep the Word fell under the Hand of Satan. All God has to do is turn his back and people become lost and without hope under the power of Satan.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This does not mean God is using evil on them, God is not keeping them or protecting them.

Even Paul who had a brother in sin took action Himself. This brother was having sex with his mother or step Mother, yet the others were puffed up (Not caring, or ignoring, still in prayer for him)

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Notice God was not the one getting him? Noticed that for some reason Satan could not get to him, but he had to be turned over to Satan or handed to the proper authorities.

It was not God's purpose this man continue in his deeds and not repent. God's Purpose is not to use evil.

Judgement:

Every time God had to judge and allow the enemy to destroy was never in God's purpose or plan. Having to judge meant that people refused to do as they where suppose to do. God's Judgements are not evil, but just and right.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Member
After having a conversation about the events that took place in the garden of Eden and the first three chapters of Genesis, I was led to believe that the fall of man happened on day 6 of creation before God saw all that he had made and declared that it was very good.


why would God declare sin good? (i think it happened after day six.)
 
Member
Sin not good.

eddieb
why would God declare sin good? (i think it happened after day six.)

Right!!

God never said sin was Good, Sin made death Reign from Adam on (Moses) Sin brought EVIL and death, not anything that would help "Refine" God's creation.

To say God used evil to refine his work and creation, would be to say God is OK with sin.

The thought was "SIN, EVIL" was needed to bring Jesus on the scene and show man their need for God and fallen state. God never created man in any fallen state. So God uses EVIL-SIN to bring his plan for man into action............... What did God say about that?

Rom 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So, the thinking is We needed a little death and sin just so God can show grace through Jesus, but after that we need to cut off the sin.

It's sort of like medication, the right amount of drug helps, but get to much then it hurts.

This is crazy thinking.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Member
The interpretation is suspect.
If you don't like Wikipedia check out some site you trust.

If you have other scriptures that support your position please share them.
Peace

Jesus spoke saying that he saw Satan fall from heaven. I have always taken this to mean that he had a proper standing before his fall. It has been proven through scripture that Satan has been given many names. Having seen this made it easy for me to make the transition to Lucifer being Satan before his fall. I know that you don't agree and I will not be dogmatic about it as God has not given me a perfect sense of it as absolute truth as other things. So in essence, my thinking is, if everything was created good then it was created a united kingdom that fell into division. Which is interesting because Gods plan has always included and been about division to accomplish his work. He only cares to see unity when it is under the banner of those who are alive in Christ, having died to sin and put on Christ.

In Jesus Name,

Gary
 
Member
In My Mind Also

why would God declare sin good? (i think it happened after day six.)

I have always seen it as happening a day, a week or a year after creation myself, but when I was shown the facts how could I think otherwise? How else can one account for the timing of each event? Can you logically unpack the text for me in a different manner that doesn't contradict itself? Now we know that God does not approve of sin as can be seen in the fact that Adam and the whole human race was judged for Adams sin. But that doesn't mean that declaring the creation 'very good' is saying that sin was 'very good'. 'Very good' could simply mean that everything was just as God had planned. The deal was sealed. Jesus would reign. It was only a matter of time and the creation would no longer be 'very good' but 'perfected'.

Gods ways are not our ways. His ways are higher than ours.

In Jesus Name,

Gary
 
Member
gdemoss:
i think perhaps we believe differently on this. which is ok. please allow me to explain my side. God dosent desire that one should perish, the bible says so. By adam falling many will perish. i dont believe God wanted adam to eat that fruit and thats why He told him adam dont eat that. I think God already knew adam would. I believe God wanted adam to eat the fruit from the tree of life. keep in mind God gives his best. He gave us a sacrificial sheep without blemish to cover our sins. he gave his best, His son.
another unpacking is once adam fell, God cursed the dirt and caused weeds to grow. this isnt good. this isnt paradise. I also believe Jesus already reigned. he raised lazarus from the grave before he actually physically got crucified and died and rose. i believe God has tests and we dont always live up to them. for instance the scripture that says many are called but few are chosen. its the test part. adam failed the test. not that i fault adam, i doubt i would have done any better than he did.
i try not to say this and this happened in a time frame. but i do think it was afterwards. but really the bible dont say either way. and in reality by the time either of us can shake adams hand and ask why did you do it, it will be so trivial it wont matter. we will be to busy singing holy holy holy is the lamb....
 
Member
i think perhaps we believe differently on this.

Yes we do. As I have studied at the Lords feet it has amazed me how I can learn something incredible, that is without refute, and others will deny it even as a possibility for whatever reason. Weeds in a fallen world are good. God cursed the earth for our 'sake' or our own good. That is what he said.

I hope you will reconsider at some point in the future to revisit the idea of the sequence of events of the sixth day of creation which include the fall of man. It is probably true that there was a time not so long ago that you couldn't have convinced me of such a thing. My first few years of Christianity were marked by a strict adherence to what I had been taught by men who lived in error that I thought were right with God. May God guide you into all truth in his time and his way.

Gary
 
Member
Yes we do. As I have studied at the Lords feet it has amazed me how I can learn something incredible, that is without refute, and others will deny it even as a possibility for whatever reason. Weeds in a fallen world are good. God cursed the earth for our 'sake' or our own good. That is what he said.

I hope you will reconsider at some point in the future to revisit the idea of the sequence of events of the sixth day of creation which include the fall of man. It is probably true that there was a time not so long ago that you couldn't have convinced me of such a thing. My first few years of Christianity were marked by a strict adherence to what I had been taught by men who lived in error that I thought were right with God. May God guide you into all truth in his time and his way.

Gary

not quite sure i follow you here. you go from saying God cursed the ground for our sake and then move on to sequence of events. you still have yet to provide a scripture to back up your theory on when the fall of man happened. the part that concerns me most is not sequence its the part about you saying you study at Gods feet and learn something incredible. If God showed you then surely you can point this out to me. God honors His word.
 
Member
not quite sure i follow you here. you go from saying God cursed the ground for our sake and then move on to sequence of events. you still have yet to provide a scripture to back up your theory on when the fall of man happened. the part that concerns me most is not sequence its the part about you saying you study at Gods feet and learn something incredible. If God showed you then surely you can point this out to me. God honors His word.

I provided all the scripture necessary to understand that Adam and Eve fell on day six in the original thread post. Opening Gods word is to study at his feet when the Holy Spirit is your teacher. Maybe you didn't understand the original post I made.

In Christ,

Gary
 
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