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When the Disciples Were Saved By Faith in Jesus Christ?

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by JesusIs4Me, Dec 4, 2017.

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  1. Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    May the Lord help us to see by His words when the born again of the Spirit was to happen for His disciples.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    I point out verse 8 as signifying why the born again experience is not marked by any outward sign; in other words, it is not by water baptism nor even when they confess Him. Indeed, in according to Acts 10:34-48, it was by believing in what they had heard from Peter.

    Continuing reading in John 3rd chapter;

    John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    Now Nicodemus is asking Jesus how one can be born again of the Spirit. Jesus is answering.

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    Verses 13 & 14 refers to when the born again of the Spirit experience was to occur; after His ascension which is after His crucifixion. Now Jesus is explaining the how in regards to when one is born again of the Spirit.

    John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    That means His disciples were not officially saved by faith in Jesus Christ until Pentecost which was after His ascension.

    That means in those two times that Jesus had given the Holy Spirit to His disciples, it was only a temporary indwelling. In Matthew 10th chapter, Judas Iscariot was given the temporary indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but scripture testify that he was not a believer ( John 6:64-71 ). Since Jesus cannot lose any one given to Him by the Father, ( John 6:39 ) then neither was Judas Iscariot saved nor His disciples when the Holy Spirit given in Matthew 10th chapter & John 20th chapter was not when the promise of salvation was given in sight of Him.

    John 14th chapter has Jesus telling His disciples when the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost ( John 14:16-17 ) was to come, which was after He had ascended to the Father ( John 14:1-3 ) as this promise was to come from the Father; ( John 14:25-26 ) and not directly from Him when He was physically present with them on earth at that time.

    So His disciples, excluding Judas Iscariot, were saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by sight of Jesus Christ so that they share like testimony to all those that come at & after Pentecost in how they were all saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
     
  2. I agree in this respect...many who HAVE been water baptized have not repented of sin, so are ineligible to receive the residing of the Holy Ghost within themselves.
    The proof of the Holy Spirit is the life lived after repentance from sin, water baptism, and baptism of the Holy Ghost.

    Frankly, nobody is "saved" till after the final judgement. (Rev 20:12-13)
     
  3. Salvation is by the grace of God and so discipleship is separate from salvation wherein the consequence of not abiding in Him is to be left behind at the pre great trib rapture event as castaways to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation. Please read2 Timothy 2nd chapter in how He still abides in former believers and why even they are still called to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes or else.

    Then how can any one testify of Jesus Christ being our Saviour if we are not saved yet? That would be akin to a false witness.

    We are saved, we just have not received our eternal inheritance yet, but which inheritance will it be? A celestial one or a terrestrial one?
     
    Dave M likes this.
  4. What is the point of discipleship if you think you are already "saved"?
    Why are we exhorted to "endure till the end" if the end is already set in stone?
    I saw nothing in 2 Tim referring to the salvation of the unbelievers.
    BTW, "or else" what?

    And there will be no vessels unto dishonor in His house.
    This doctrine seems like it is getting you relaxed enough to receive the "mark" on your forehead without any conscience disobedience to God,or of the resulting destruction the mark will entitle you to..

    No one else can save us, so to say He is our Savior is not false testimony, even if our salvation has not yet been judged at the throne of God.

    The only two places of residence after the final judgement are the new earth and the lake of fire.
     
  5. At pentecost, weren't they speaking in tongues after they were filled with the holy ghost.
    Also Paul does say that tongues are a sign to unbelievers.
     
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    Wired 4 Fishen likes this.
  6. We are saved to be born again, but the initial experience is like being actually reborn in spirit. Its a bit hard to explain, that discipleship comes before sanctification. And when we are completely perfect and raised will we be entering heaven.

    I know it can be confusing because different christians will talk about being saved and others will be talking about being born again when they kind of mean the same process. And them others will talk about conversion, or having faith, or being baptised and filled with spirit.

    Ask God if you confused.
     
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  7. Born again = being saved
     
    Born Again 2004 and JesusIs4Me like this.
  8. John 15:8 KJV is why when we are to continue to abide in His love in having fellowship with the Father & the Son; John 15:9-11

    I did not say unbelievers; but referenced "former" believers. Please read 2 Timothy 2nd chapter again especially 2 Timothy 2:13 KJV

    Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2 - King James Version

    Or else they become castaways ( John 15:6 KJV & 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 KJV ) and be left behind at the pre great trib rapture event to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin before the Bridegroom had come ( Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV & 2 Timothy 2:19-21 KJV )

    You did not read 2 Timothy 2nd chapter very well, did you? ( 2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV )

    There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when saints are left behind as they will lose out of the eternal glory that comes with their salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be received as a vessel unto honor at the Marriage Supper table.

    If you are working towards you salvation in keeping it, then you are saying He has not saved you yet, and therefore you cannot claim Him as your Savior.

    Those left behind are still His even though they did not depart from iniquity as He still abides even in former believers. 2 Timothy 2:13 KJV

    In His House, there are 2 kinds of inheritance; the celestial kind and the glorified terrestrial kind. ( 2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV )

    So running that race is not for salvation, but running that race to endure to the end is for discipleship of abiding in Him to be received as that vessel unto honor in His House. To not run that race after having been saved is to risk losing the reward of crowns as well as becoming a castaway.

    But if you run that race for obtaining salvation, then although you are still saved, you run in unbelief and have come short of that rest in Jesus Christ. Hebrews 4:1-3 KJV & Hebrews 4:9-11 KJV

    You can only testify of Jesus Christ as your Saviour when you are saved. and not before. Therefore because He is in us, and He will never leave, not even those left behind, we can testify that Jesus Christ is our Saviour because we are saved.

    Otherwise you worship Him in vain teaching for doctrines the commandments of men to obtain salvation by.
     
  9. John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

    John 6:40
    For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


    We are saved when we receive eternal life is my thought, according to scripture we receive eternal life when we believe in Jesus which happens in this life while we are alive
     
  10. Correct, but not every body spoke in tongues in the Book of Acts when receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit at their salvation in being born again of the Spirit.

    But those saved believers that seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation do so by that sign of tongues which proves that other calling is not of Him, but a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV & 2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV ) as well as ignoring the warning of seeking another Jesus or another spirit to receive ( 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 KJV )

    We all share this testimony in 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV or some of us have moved away from their resting place in Jesus Christ in serving something else in His name which is not of Him but apostasy; another gospel and thus another calling. Ephesians 4:4-6 KJV
     
  11. Can the disciples be saved before His crucifixion? Can Jesus go back on His word when He said that when He has gone to the Father, the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost will come at their salvation from the Father above?

    One has to take all His words in context of when and how the born again of the Spirit was to occur which was after His ascension.
     
  12. @JesusIs4Me if you worried about your salvation then you need assurance...if you havent asked to receive the holy spirit than just ask in Jesus name and He will give you. When the disciples were told by Jesus to wait to receive power from on high this was the day of pentecost. This happened 40 days after Jesus ascended...or was it 50? Cos they were celebrating Shauvot at the time, and thats 50 days after passover.

    If you can alreasy say Jesus is Lord and testify that He's saved you from sin then hallelujah!

    Some people are wary of speaking in unknown tongues but dont be afraid of it its just magnifying the Lord, this is how we know its of God because we cant do it without Him. This is why Paul says if we do it then ask for interpretation, but if we already saved we can magnify the Lord in our own tongue. Remember that God knows all languages/tongues cos He created them. And in revelation, the saints come from all tribes and tongues.

    As for receiving false spirits etc, well you test the spirits to see if they are from God, but Jesus says if you ask anything in His Name it will be from Him. So you dont need to worry about that. Yes not everyone needs to speak in tongues but it is a sign and it does mean you have received, because the Holy spirit does give utterance. When Jesus said to the disciples he will go away and give them a comforter that is His spirit dwelling in them, and they received on Pentecost.

    Speaking in tongues does not prove that they werent saved you shouldnt be seeking tongues in and of itself, God will give you, if people seek after a sign just for the sake of seeking a sign or a wonder then yes that is not truly seeking after Jesus. But you cannot judge that everyone that does speak in unknown tongues is strange or weird because this is actually what God can do, just because you dont understand what you or others may be saying, doesnt mean it isnt from Him.

    We cant boast ourselves it is actually God that is hearing us speak if its an unknown tongue. Unknown to us that is, but God knows. Some people seem to think that God only understands English, but of course He is much bigger than that lol,
     
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  13. I was posting in regards to the Peace saying we are not saved until Judgement, I was not referring to the disciples. Thats why I stated WE in my post
     
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  14. Agreed!
    The baptism of the Holy Ghost is true salvation and it can occur inside or outside of water.
     
  15. If any one is worried about salvation and need assurance, it is not by asking in Jesus's name to receive the Holy Spirit, but by reading His words that they are saved. To seek after a sign that they are saved is actually a departure from faith in Jesus Christ. Our salvation cannot be assured by signs for then several problems can arise out of that.

    They may continue to doubt because of recurring habitual sin or something else that sows doubts and continue to seek to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign in order to gain that assurance. This would be called laboring in unbelief and denying Him as in them since they had believed in Him at the calling of the gospel. And what they are receiving as a sign in the flesh apart from salvation is not the Holy Spirit when He was already in them by faith in Jesus Christ.

    So the answer is not seeking assurance of salvation by a sign or by a feeling, but in His words, and asking Jesus for help to believe in His words; in taking Him at His words and thereby trusting Him. Indeed, it is okay to ask Him for help to believe when they struggle with unbelief or doubts.

    Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

    So what are His words for reassurances?

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    So even when a believer struggles with doubts, they can call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for help to put away their doubts and believe.

    When most tongue speakers gain that tongue by asking for the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, which is an apostasy in and of itself, then there are plenty of reasons to be wary of that tongue; especially when tongue speakers insists they can use it privately too which is a discernment that they do not really have the real God's gift of tongues to speak unto the people and that whosoever is interpreting it, are faking it; otherwise the one speaking in tongues knows the other language and is just pretending they do not. As it is, God would not manifest His real gift of tongues to endorse that other apostate calling for any saved believer, even one that doubts their salvation for whatever the reason, and so permist that strong delusion to occur for believing the lie that one can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign.

    In Matthew 7:21-23 KJV they did everything in His name but were identified as workers of iniquity. So just because they use His name, calling to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation is still a work of iniquity and an apostate calling. Paul addressed that iniquity that was at work in his day that he was prophesying would happen in droves in the latter days as the cause of the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter wherein God would permit them that believed the lie, that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign as they run the risk of being left behind as "damned" in becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from that iniquity.

    If they shun vain & profane babbling, and pray normally and praise normally, and seek no more filling of the Holy Spirit, but rest in Jesus Christ that they had been filled as promised at their salvation, then they shall be by the grace of God, the prudent virgins ready to go because they are filled.

    As it is, the other calling to get tongues does not stop there as believers continue to seek to receive what they believe is the Holy Spirit again and again and again, falling down and all those other signs of confusion which God is not the author of.

    [QUTE]Speaking in tongues does not prove that they werent saved you shouldnt be seeking tongues in and of itself, God will give you, if people seek after a sign just for the sake of seeking a sign or a wonder then yes that is not truly seeking after Jesus. But you cannot judge that everyone that does speak in unknown tongues is strange or weird because this is actually what God can do, just because you dont understand what you or others may be saying, doesnt mean it isnt from Him.

    We cant boast ourselves it is actually God that is hearing us speak if its an unknown tongue. Unknown to us that is, but God knows. Some people seem to think that God only understands English, but of course He is much bigger than that lol,[/QUOTE]

    For a saved believer to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation as many get tongues that way, that does not mean they are not saved any more. He cannot lose any that the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 KJV ) BUT this is the apostasy. the falling away from the faith in these latter days ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV ) and they are at risk of being left behind for being a false witness by giving that other calling which is nothing short but another gospel, unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes.
     
  16. Thanks for clearing that up.
     
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  17. Think about what you are saying. Where did any gospel presentation in the Book of Acts asks for repenting from all sins and not just the sin of unbelief in how they are saved by believing in Him?

    What does this verse say? Ephesians 4:30 KJV Why warn us to not grieve the Holy Spirit in us unless saved believers can err by sowing to the works of the flesh in reaping corruption? Does it read as if the Holy Spirit will leave us? No. But what is the real consequence? Here it is; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 KJV Physical death. That is the warning given to saved believers at the church in Thyatira that if they do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the great tribulation in Revelation 2:21-24 KJV

    Even former believers still has Jesus Christ in them ( 2 Timothy 2:13 KJV )

    Proof of the Holy Spirit in believers is the testimony to the power of God in salvation for any one who believes even in His name. That is His glory; not yours.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Then you must be waiting until then before you can tell any one the Good News that you are saved and that Jesus Christ is your Saviour. So what is wrong with that picture?

    1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.........21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
     
  18. Judas was the only one the twelve [those also named apostles] who was lost, but he was NOT the only disciple who turned away from Jesus:

    "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67
     
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  19. Thank you for sharing. I do know this, just as I also know that there was more than twelve disciples at Pentecost, including the one that replaced Judas Iscariot by the casting of lots. There was about a 120 there.

    Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

    I am certain that John 6:66 is true in that they walked no more with Him during His time on earth, but some of them may had returned and were in the upper room, excluding Judas Iscariot, of course.
     
  20. As the gist of your post is that you already have a guarantee of salvation, whether or not you really love God above all else and your neighbor as yourself,
    and that even the lost will be accorded salvation, in spite of their treasonous rebellion against God, It is pointless to exhort you to flee such absurd doctrine.
    It is written...
    "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." ((Matthew 10:22)
    "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." ()Matthew 24:13)
    "Shall be saved" doesn't sound like a present tense thing to me.
     

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