What IS Sin?

[RJ]

We have learned that our first step to becoming one of God's called, chosen and faithful servants is to recognize that we are sinners (Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
; 1 John 1:8 But how does the Bible define sin? What is it?

Jesus clarifies this in Matthew 5:21-22 [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' ["empty-head"] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' [in the sense of cursing another as worthless or condemned] shall be in danger of hell fire.

Not fully understanding what sin is leads to a many false doctrines. If your theology or doctrine can, even in the slightest, lead to a negative or bondage of any kind, it is false.
God hates sin because it is the very antithesis of His nature. The psalmist describes God’s hatred of sin this way: “For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; no evil dwells with You” Psalm 5:4. God hates sin because He is holy; holiness is the most exalted of all His attributes ; Isaiah 6:3, Revelation 6:8). His holiness totally saturates His being. His holiness epitomizes His moral perfection and His absolute freedom from blemish of any kind Psalm 89:35, Psalm 92:15, Romans 9:14.

Sin is anything God is not and seperates us from his absolute perfection!

 

[Davy]

Hi RJ. The Hebrew term translated sin is chattath, and in Greek the word is hamartia. In both languages these words mean to miss the mark, the mark of perfect obedience to God, which Adam and Eve lost. The consequences are made clear by Paul in Romans 5:12, says: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." However, all is not lost! Jesus came to the earth to provide a ransom that would release mankind from being slaves to sin in two ways.

1. Jesus provided a ransom sacrifice which 1 John 2:2, says: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Through Jesus' death, people have been given the hope of everlasting life, with no more sickness, pain or death, which is caused by sin. (Revelation 21:1-4)

2. Although some say, to be saved all you need to do is believe in Jesus, but the bible does not say that. John 3:36, (NASB) says: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Notice, John said it is important to believe in the Son, but also to obey the Son! Jesus came to earth not just as a ransom sacrifice, but to also teach his followers how to be obedient to God's standards. You cannot practice sin like adultery, fornication, drunkenness, etc, (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Galatians 5:19-21) and still expect the ransom to cover your willful sins. As John said you must obey the Son. Although we all sin, not all of us deliberately practice sin, and for that we have the ransom sacrifice to cover that sin. But you cannot live a life as a non believer and not change your ways, and still obey the Son. Jesus' teachings and pattern of behavior shows us how to strive to be close to the mark of perfect obedience, which no one at this time will attain. At least not yet. But that does not mean we can live a life that is void of obeying what Jesus and the bible teach!

 

[Jehonadab]

I would be curious to see your thoughts concerning:

Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

What is Paul's criteria for concluding that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?

Does Paul mean this regardless of whether it is something the Old Law forbade as unclean?

Paul did say, 1 Corinthians 10:25-27 "Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake."

But he also cautioned: 1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?"

And he showed that his point was the same as in Romans 14:

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

Romans 14:13-17
17 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

Clearly this is not a license to decide what is good ourselves as that would be the sin Adam committed, turning away from God's law which forbade eating of that tree and deciding for himself that it was preferable for him to appease Eve by honoring her request.

What then is the purpose of this liberty and how do we use it properly?

 

[RJ]

Hi RJ. The Hebrew term translated sin is chattath, and in Greek the word is hamartia. In both languages these words mean to miss the mark, the mark of perfect obedience to God, which Adam and Eve lost. The consequences are made clear by Paul in Romans 5:12, says: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." However, all is not lost! Jesus came to the earth to provide a ransom that would release mankind from being slaves to sin in two ways.

1. Jesus provided a ransom sacrifice which 1 John 2:2, says: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Through Jesus' death, people have been given the hope of everlasting life, with no more sickness, pain or death, which is caused by sin. (Revelation 21:1-4)

2. Although some say, to be saved all you need to do is believe in Jesus, but the bible does not say that. John 3:36, (NASB) says: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Notice, John said it is important to believe in the Son, but also to obey the Son! Jesus came to earth not just as a ransom sacrifice, but to also teach his followers how to be obedient to God's standards. You cannot practice sin like adultery, fornication, drunkenness, etc, (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Galatians 5:19-21) and still expect the ransom to cover your willful sins. As John said you must obey the Son. Although we all sin, not all of us deliberately practice sin, and for that we have the ransom sacrifice to cover that sin. But you cannot live a life as a non believer and not change your ways, and still obey the Son. Jesus' teachings and pattern of behavior shows us how to strive to be close to the mark of perfect obedience, which no one at this time will attain. At least not yet. But that does not mean we can live a life that is void of obeying what Jesus and the bible teach!

Yep we all miss the mark!

 

[RJ]

I would be curious to see your thoughts concerning:

Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

What is Paul's criteria for concluding that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?

Does Paul mean this regardless of whether it is something the Old Law forbade as unclean?

Paul did say, 1 Corinthians 10:25-27 "Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake."

But he also cautioned: 1 Corinthians 10:28-29 "But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?"

And he showed that his point was the same as in Romans 14:

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved."

Romans 14:13-17
17 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."

Clearly this is not a license to decide what is good ourselves as that would be the sin Adam committed, turning away from God's law which forbade eating of that tree and deciding for himself that it was preferable for him to appease Eve by honoring her request.

What then is the purpose of this liberty and how do we use it properly?

Sin is sin to God, all sin seperates us from him.
I was especially trying to focus on the nuance or subtleness of sin that most miss in their lives like doub, fear, being negative, etc. .
So you have faith, right? Do you still have doubt, fear or are you ever negative?

 

[NoHype]

Did someone miss how the New Testament Scripture actually defines what 'sin' is?

I Jn 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(KJV)

"... for sin is the transgression of the law" per Apostle John, and this is a New Covenant teaching, not an old one.

 

[Barny]

Hi RJ,

Good topic. Many Christians have not referred to scripture to find God's definitions of sin. Instead they just follow traditional views that sin is bad behaviour.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:

1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin. We are not missing the mark here.


2:Unbelief in Jesus, John16:9 . This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either. We are not missing the mark here.


3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1 John 5:17 Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. So here we do not sin. We are not missing the mark here.


4: “Sin is transgression of the law”,1 John 3:4 This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.
Christians are not missing the mark here as we're not under the law.


Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are UNDER IT” (Romans 3:19, 20).
"the law is not made for a righteous man (Christians), but for......the ungodly and sinner" (1 Tim 1:9.
“where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION (SIN)” (Rom4:15).


So, with these scriptures in mind, can Christians be judged/accused of "sin"? Can we be judged as missing the mark?
"Who shall lay ANYTHING to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies", Rom 8:33
"Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9


We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Romans 6:6.
Hence we see in 1 Peter 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Romans 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Romans 6:6) has CEASED from sin,”.


Of course we still see Christians doing wrong (erroneously referred to as sin under man’s ambiguous definitions), but as sons of God we are chastised for our wrong.
But, regarding sin/transgression of the law, Satan the accuser cannot charge us with this. God has justified us.


Consider also 1 Peter 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We CAN”T be both.


ONLY PAST sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25). And as the scriptures above show, Christians cannot sin in Christ. Our righteousness is by faith instead (Rom 4:5). So once in Christ there is no more "sin". All past sin was remitted and there is no more future charges of sin to be laid against us. Remember Satan the accuser cannot charge us with "sin" (Rom 8:33).

Once we understand God's definition of sin then we can understand that Jesus truly set us free from sin, John 8:36.

 

[DHC]

Hi RJ,

Good topic. Many Christians have not referred to scripture to find God's definitions of sin. Instead they just follow traditional views that sin is bad behaviour.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:

Hello Barny.

Here are some more definitions of sin.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Romans 14:23
...and whatever is not from faith is sin.

There are others too Barny.

 

[Barny]

Hi DHC,

Thanks for those other definitions of sin. Note how they all point to unbelief in Jesus. And remember that unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

What is the "good" that James 4:17 speaks of?

Its to believe on Jesus. And remember its the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

Note the context of James 4 to see confirmation of this.
James 4:4 is addressing spiritual adulterers.
"Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."

And note James 4:12 addressing these spiritual adulterers about their judging righteousness under the law.
There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

As we can see it addresses those in unbelief, who reject righteousness by faith, preferring instead to judge righteousness by works of the law.

Gal 5:16 also refers to unbelief in Jesus.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh

The flesh wants to be in control, seeking self-righteousness by works of the law. The lust of the flesh is to reject righteousness by faith/ believing in Jesus. The flesh instead prefers spiritual adultery with Hagar (symbolic of self-righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24)

1John 5:17 you mentioned also confirms the sin of unbelief that the world is convicted of.
All unrighteousness is sin

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus is unrighteous and therefore can be charged with sin.
Remember our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Therefore in regards to the sin of unrighteousness, Christians cannot be charged with this sin.

As for Rom 14:23, note it refers to the law (Rom 14:4,10), which we know is not of faith.
Gal 3:12
Yet the law is not of faith,

Scriptures confirm that sin all points to unbelief in Jesus.

 

[NoHype]

Hi RJ,

Good topic. Many Christians have not referred to scripture to find God's definitions of sin. Instead they just follow traditional views that sin is bad behaviour.

Actually, some interpretations you're preaching here are men's traditions and not from God's Word.

God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:

1: Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark3:29 ,. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin. We are not missing the mark here.

You've apparently missed Hebrews 6, because it's Christ's own that can commit that sin against The Holy Spirit by once having tasted of the good work of God and the powers of the world to come, and then fall away from Christ, it then becomes impossible to renew:

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
(KJV)

3: “all unrighteousness is sin”, 1 John 5:17 Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. So here we do not sin. We are not missing the mark here.

According to Apostle John in 1 John 1, if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us:

I Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)

The only way we can be counted as righteous by our Faith on Christ Jesus is by staying in the Walk with Him, repenting and asking Him forgiveness when necessary.

4: “Sin is transgression of the law”,1 John 3:4 This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus SETS FREE from the law of sin and death, (Romans 8:2). Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4.
Christians are not missing the mark here as we're not under the law.

You missed the condition that Apostle Paul gave in Gal.5 for us to not be under the law, and that is IF... we walk by The Spirit and not our flesh. Go out and accidentally get drunk at a Christmas party and get into a car wreck and see how you will definitely be back under the law. God's laws are not only about the Ten Commandments you'll discover quickly in that situation, for drunkeness is one of the sins of walking by the flesh which Apostle Paul pointed to in Galatians 5.

 

[Barny]

Hi NoHype,

Heb 6 also refers to the sin of unbelief in Jesus. And remember John 16:9 where it says that it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world will be convicted of.

Note that Heb 6 speaks of repentance from "dead works". These "dead works" are unbelief in that they are dead works of self-righteousness. Note also in Heb 6:4 that this is a once only repentance. This is in contradiction to the traditions of men which call for continual repentance from bad behaviour.

As Heb 6:4 says, it is impossible to be renewed to repentance after one falls away into unbelief. This is also confirmed in Heb 10:26. If a born again Christian, who has known the truth of the gospel, has tasted the heavenly gift and been made partaker of the Holy Spirit, but then rejects God's gift and falls away into dead works of self-righteousness, then God tells us that they have no way back to repentance.

So again we see scripture is not talking about mans tradition of sin being bad behaviour and that if you slip up too often with a bad lifestyle then your lost. Such teachings are error.

In regards to1John 1:8, note the context of that chapter from the beginning. It's an evangelical context preaching to the lost.
note 1John 1:2 that it "bears witness, and show unto you eternal life".
Also note 1John 1:3 "declare we unto you that you also may have fellowship"

I've often asked others what sin does 1John 1:8 refers to if it speaks to Christians and nobody has been able to tell me.

Regarding Gal 5 and that example of drunkenness, we have to remember to discern scripture spiritually (1Cor2:14) and look to scripture to find what it refers to.

Note Rev 17:1,2
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,[a] “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

We all know that there is no physical wine made from fornication.

Instead we see that it refers to spiritual fornication with Hagar, who is symbolic of self-righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24). You cannot get physically drunk from the physically impossible to make "wine of fornication". Therefore we clearly see it refers to spiritual drunkeness from the spiritual wine of fornication with Hagar ( who is symbolic of self-righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

 

[eddieb]

"Sin" is an archers(bow and arrows) term that means to miss the mark. So to better understand what sin is we must understand what the mark is we aim for. The mark is found in Luke 10:27(and other places in scripture too) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

If we dont hit this mark it is sin.

 

[RJ]

Sin is in the eye of the beholder, God!

 

[NoHype]

Hi NoHype,

Heb 6 also refers to the sin of unbelief in Jesus. And remember John 16:9 where it says that it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world will be convicted of.

Note that Heb 6 speaks of repentance from "dead works". These "dead works" are unbelief in that they are dead works of self-righteousness. Note also in Heb 6:4 that this is a once only repentance. This is in contradiction to the traditions of men which call for continual repentance from bad behaviour.

Whoah, whoah. One needs to read that Hebrews 6:4-8 section example more carefully:

Heb 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(KJV)

Verse 8 is the actual end of that specific topic about those who fall away from Christ that once experienced those things of the world to come. In verse 9 Paul is talking to the brethren that he is persuaded will not 'fall away'.

So what group would that be per the 7th verse? those who bear thorns and are rejected, nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burned?

That's about the "workers of iniquity", i.e., the "tares" of Matt.13. By that Paul is giving what he means by that 'falling away', meaning, rejecting Christ Jesus as their Saviour and instead turning to follow the devil and his servants. A believer that once experienced the power of The Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts of the world to come and then falls away from Christ to the devil and his instead are those for whom it is impossible to renew their status with Christ. That is what the unpardonable sin is about. It is NOT about our need to repent to Christ of slip ups we may do with staying in the walk with Him. This type here intentionally... falls away to do iniquity of the devil.

So, have there been some in the Church that experienced those things of the world to come, and then turned away from Christ to follow after the devil instead, consciously aware of what they do? Yes. That's why there is no future renewing possible for those. An example would be like one of Christ's Apostles turning away from Him completely, and become one of the "workers of iniquity", even after having experienced the gifts of the world to come.

The rest of Paul's Message there (I believe Paul dictated Hebrews to Luke), was that he was persuaded the brethren of v.9 forward would keep the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end, not being slothful, but followers of those through Faith and patience inherit the promises (Heb.6:9-12).

None of that conflicts with the brethren of verse 9 forward, which 1 John 1 shows we are to repent to Christ of future slip ups we may commit, in order to stay in the walk with Him.

Our asking Christ forgiveness of sins is in The Lord's Prayer that He showed His disciples and us to pray (Luke 11).

 

[Barny]

hi NoHype,

do you acknowledge the following?

that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9)

that Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9)

that whatever the law says it says to those under it (Rom 3:19)

That where there is no law there is no transgression/sin (Rom 4:15)

That nobody can lay anything (which includes sin) to the charge of God's elect (Rom 8:33)

if you can answer these questions it might help to clarify things better.

thanks

 

[NoHype]

hi NoHype,

do you acknowledge the following?

that the sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus (John 16:9)

Per that John 16 chapter yes, that's the meaning. Yet is is applied in different contexts depending on the subject, like here, the Greek word for "convince" being the same word used for "reprove" in John 16:8 (see also Ps.98:2; Isa.2:4; Micah 4:3):

Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
(KJV)

that Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9)

But why have you left Apostle Paul's 'If' condition out of your statement? As Paul showed in Romans and Galatians, we are only dead to the law, or not under the law, IF... we walk by The Spirit instead of our flesh. Walk by the flesh and you're back under the law, no matter who your are. It's important to heed all of The Word, and not just partial points by preachers in the pulpits that just cover fragments.

that whatever the law says it says to those under it (Rom 3:19)

Why did you just stop at that verse, instead of reading further there in Romans 3 where Paul says this?

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(KJV)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Apostle Paul say there for the remission of sins 'future'? No, he did not.

As for the idea of us not being under the law, I've already answered that, but Paul actually did in Gal.5 in relation to the walk by The Spirit vs. a walk by the flesh, giving us the choice as to which we follow.

That where there is no law there is no transgression/sin (Rom 4:15)

Did you forget to read the following in Rom.2 prior to that Scripture?...

Rom 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
(KJV)

It sounds like you've been wrongly taught that God's laws have been destroyed and are no more for us in Christ Jesus. That's not how Apostle Paul explained it, but that's how the false prophets try to say it is, i.e., like God's laws are now dead.

The way Paul explained it is that we in Christ ourselves are dead to the law... IF we walk in Christ by The Spirit. It's simply because by following Christ there is no law against (per Galatians 5:22-23). Walk by the flesh though, and the law is back in effect upon us. It's easy to see that with brethren that fall away from Christ too, how they put theirself back into bondage to the law.

This point has nothing to do with those who think to be saved or justified by following the law.

Like the drunkenness example, which is one of the sins Paul listed in Gal.5 with those who walk by the flesh. What would be the bondage to the law a drunkard could experience? Besides a DUI, or manslaughter if the drunk driver kills someone, and prison time, alcoholism can mean damage to his body's health, even death. Do that and you'll quickly see how God's laws are still in effect upon the Christian nations today, for many of today's justice system's laws still originate from God's laws.

That nobody can lay anything (which includes sin) to the charge of God's elect (Rom 8:33)

Indeed that is for God's elect who fit that, which would be the true followers of our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. It also means just behavior with the walk in Him by The Spirit. Does it mean those who walk in the sins Paul listed in Gal.5? No.

 

[Barny]

Hi NoHype,

Not sure about your answer to my questions so I'll try to clarify further.

I assume you admit that unbelief in Jesus is sin, as John 16:9 says. Correct?

But why have you left Apostle Paul's 'If' condition out of your statement? As Paul showed in Romans and Galatians, we are only dead to the law, or not under the law, IF... we walk by The Spirit instead of our flesh. Walk by the flesh and you're back under the law, no matter who your are.

We see things very differently here. I've heard of a very similar doctrine to what you are following, but that was from legalists who try to bring others back under the law for righteousness by works of the law.

What minimum standard of obedience to the law (10 commandments) are you saying one must attain as confirmation that they are righteous and saved?

Why did you just stop at that verse, instead of reading further there in Romans 3 where Paul says thRom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(KJV)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Apostle Paul say there for the remission of sins 'future'? No, he did not.

That;s what I was saying, Paul did not say there was any remission of future sins for Christians. Christ's sacrifice was only for past sin, before we receive Christ.

Scripture confirms that once in Christ there is no future sin that can be charged against us, Rom 8:33. Although Christians may still do wrong at times, this is not sin that can be charged against us. We're not under the law for righteousness, hence we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law. Our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5), instead of works of the law.

This is confirmed in 1Pet 4:1 that we've "ceased from sin", 1John 3:9 we "cannot sin", "Rom 6:7 we're "freed from sin, etc, etc.

According to the doctrine you follow, Christians are not under the law, but, as soon as one slips up and fails to obey even one point of the law then they are back under the law again. This is not supported in scripture.

Rom 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
(KJV)

The law of righteousness is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12. And just one offense makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10.

So how can man become righteous?
1: PERFECT obedience to the law, James 2:10
OR
2: Your faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

All mankind was unrighteous, whether they were Jews under the law or non-Jews without the law.

Christians choose righteousness by faith, instead of works of the law.

GAL 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Like the drunkenness example,.

The drunkenness example refers to those who are spiritually drunk with the wine of spiritual fornication, as I described in my earlier post. See Rev 17:1,2 as confirmation of the drunkeness God refers to. .

 

[NoHype]

Hi NoHype,

Not sure about your answer to my questions so I'll try to clarify further.

I assume you admit that unbelief in Jesus is sin, as John 16:9 says. Correct?

Yes, in that respect yes, because only those who believe on The Father through His Son will be saved.

We see things very differently here. I've heard of a very similar doctrine to what you are following, but that was from legalists who try to bring others back under the law for righteousness by works of the law.

I'm only following what Christ's Apostles wrote; have you considered how many today don't really stick to what all the Apostles wrote, instead of thinking this is some new and improved doctrine? None of it is about being justified by following the law. Yet apparently that's how someone has taught you, and wrongly at that. You apparently don't understand what God's laws are for. See 1 Timothy 1 again.

What minimum standard of obedience to the law (10 commandments) are you saying one must attain as confirmation that they are righteous and saved?

None, because like I've said before, we are not saved by following the law, but by God's grace only. That's why you are in error by trying bring that into Paul and John's condition of walking by The Spirit vs. walking by the flesh and repenting of future sins we may commit.

That;s what I was saying, Paul did not say there was any remission of future sins for Christians. Christ's sacrifice was only for past sin, before we receive Christ.

You might want to re-think that, because Paul is talking about our first belief and acceptance of Christ Jesus. From that point back, all those sins are remmitted. But NOT future sins that we may commit. And that was my point I think you well know, but you instead tried to twist Paul's meaning there and my declaration of it.

Rom.3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Scripture confirms that once in Christ there is no future sin that can be charged against us, Rom 8:33.

So you think Rom.8:33 gives us the license to sin and get away with it? Your idea is against 1 John 1 and many other NT Scriptures, and not what that verse is really about anyway, because as one of Christ's elect just go out and get drunk and behind the wheel of a car and run someone over and see what happens!

Although Christians may still do wrong at times, this is not sin that can be charged against us.

Like I said, look at those who go out and get drunk, commit rape, murder, or whatever that is against God's law per Apostle Paul in Gal.5, and see what happens. If you believe those telling you it's not sin look at brethren in Christ who do those things and see what happens to them. Maybe then you'll know for sure what I'm talking about.

This is confirmed in 1Pet 4:1 that we've "ceased from sin", 1John 3:9 we "cannot sin", "Rom 6:7 we're "freed from sin, etc, etc.

According to the doctrine you follow, Christians are not under the law, but, as soon as one slips up and fails to obey even one point of the law then they are back under the law again. This is not supported in scripture.

That's IF... we walk by The Spirit though. I just explained to you Paul's meaning from Gal.5 about how the law WILL have effect even upon us IF... we do those things of the flesh he listed. Walk by your flesh and you are NOT freed from sin, it's as simple as that. But repent to Christ of the sin, and get back on track with Him, then you won't be subject to the law.

The law of righteousness is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12. And just one offense makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10.

So how can man become righteous?
1: PERFECT obedience to the law, James 2:10
OR
2: Your faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5

Our Faith on Christ Jesus is 'how' we are accounted as perfect, even if we sin, but don't think repentance of future sins like Apostle John showed in 1 John 1 isn't necessary to stay in the walk with Christ. That's why it's dangerous to think that our first belief on Christ cleanses us from all future sins we may commit. Paul said that was for sins past (i.e., sins prior to coming to Christ).

All mankind was unrighteous, whether they were Jews under the law or non-Jews without the law.

Christians choose righteousness by faith, instead of works of the law.

GAL 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

I refer you back to Romans 2:12-14 on that:

Rom 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
(KJV)

The drunkenness example refers to those who are spiritually drunk with the wine of spiritual fornication, as I described in my earlier post. See Rev 17:1,2 as confirmation of the drunkeness God refers to.

No it doesn't. Apostle Paul's list of sins in Galatians 5:19-21, which includes drunkenness, are sins of the flesh, not the spirit.

 

[Barny]

Hi NoHype,

You admit that there is no minimum standard of good behaviour required for salvation, but then you contradict this by your quote below.

That's IF... we walk by The Spirit though. I just explained to you Paul's meaning from Gal.5 about how the law WILL have effect even upon us IF... we do those things of the flesh he listed. Walk by your flesh and you are NOT freed from sin, it's as simple as that. But repent to Christ of the sin, and get back on track with Him, then you won't be subject to the law

The doctrine you follow falsely describes Christians as living a see-saw lifestyle between Spirit and flesh, based on how good a lifestyle they live. Such doctrines are not supported in scripture. The claim that Gal 5 supports this is error, as I've already shown with that example of drunkenness. Scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14. Anyone who tries to read scripture only in physical terms will be led into error and even legalism.

Can you explain how this alleged "future sin" that you feel Christians are still chargeable with, is dealt with. It took Christ's sacrifice to remit our past sins before we received Christ, so can you provide scripture explaining what sacrifice is needed to remit future sins. Or is no more sacrifice needed? If you claim no more sacrifice is needed how can that be considering it took Christ's sacrifice to remit past sin?

So you think Rom.8:33 gives us the license to sin and get away with it? Your idea is against 1 John 1 and many other NT Scriptures, and not what that verse is really about anyway, because as one of Christ's elect just go out and get drunk and behind the wheel of a car and run someone over and see what happens!

What you say above is a common argument I have heard from legalists. The false allegation that without the law we'll all run amok in selfish lifestyles and debauchery, etc.

Instead, we see Christians will all be at different stages of growth. Some, like the thief on the cross, show no improvement in lifestyle. Others show little improvement, whilst others show much. But this is not how our righteousness and salvation is determined. It's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

And any Christian who does wrong will not profit by it. Consider King David with his adultery and murder.

The legalists however, use this false allegation to try to sway others back under the law for righteousness by works.

Our Faith on Christ Jesus is 'how' we are accounted as perfect,

I happy to see you understand this.

But it's concerning to hear you promoting a lukewarm doctrine mixing grace with works of the law.
Anyone preaching on scripture has to be very careful what they say as they will face a stricter judgement, James 3:1.

Consider the example of error teaching given in James 3:8-11

But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless (love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge under the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgment/condemnation under the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter (judgment/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?

We must not preach a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law (Rev 3:15).

Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I believe that sin is man's decision to be independent of God, to "do my own thing" going back to the behavior of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
We are challenged to give up this fatal obsession and surrender our lives to Jesus so His Spirit can guide us to our eternal home.

SLE