• Hi Guest!

    You may be aware that "big tech" has been aggressively censoring conservatives on Twitter, Facebook, Google, Instagram, YouTube and other social media platforms. This is tyrannical and suppressive towards Christians and conservatives.

    Please share Talk Jesus community on every platform you have to give conservatives an outlet and safe community to be apart of.

    Support This Community

    Thank You

  • Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 13,000 members today

    Register Log In

What ELSE Happens at the Gathering of the Saints?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Member
First let’s use the word of God and some plain common sense to establish some FACTS:

Let’s start with the Great Tribulation Period (GTP) and what God’s word tells us about it.

Dan.12
[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
Matt.24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now how many times like this can there be? There can only be ONE time that was not since the beginning of the world, or since there was a nation, nor to the time that Jesus was speaking, nor ever shall be! So we know for a fact that the period of time spoken of in Dan.12 and in Matt.24 are the SAME time.

Now let’s use common sense; If a time period comes around that is very terrible….but then another time period comes AFTER that is worse than the previous….could that first time period be the GTP? NO! Because God’s word tells us when the GTP comes there will NOT be a time worse than it; before OR after! And the entire time…the WHOLE time, however long it will last, is known as the Great Tribulation Period (GTP). God’s word does NOT say it is broken up into (2) half’s! Because if the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> half is worse than the first, then how could the first half be known as the GTP? God would have lied to us!

By the same token consider this; The Battle of Armageddon happens AFTER the GTP! And just from the description given to us we know it will be a very, very bad time,

“By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails
were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.”

But will IT be worse than the GTP? Again….God’s word tells us NO! It can’t because scriptures tells us the GTP will be, “…a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation…”, and “…shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

So not even the battle of Armageddon will be as bad as what God’s word tell us the GTP will be!

So again….just so we are clear, the GTP can only happen ONCE! The ENITRE period is known as the GTP and NOTHING, no time period can be worse than it; before OR after!

Next; let’s read who will rule during this GTP!

Rev 13
[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev.13
[12] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So that man of sin will rule bycausing miracles and having both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond receive a mark!

Now one fact we know for sure is that the man of sin, also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one WILL rule at some point for a certain amount of time and he will cause all to receive a mark. And it will be this time that the GTP begins! Now those that believe in the pre-rapture, believe they will be taken from this earth BEFORE this tribulation period occurs and will not be subjected to having to make the choice to receive the mark of the beast or not!

Well……Let's read what God's word tells us, then use that to figure it all out;

1 Thes.4
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thes.2
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now BOTH of these scriptures are describing the SAME event, the gathering of the saints! And thus far we know for a fact that at this time there will be;

- A shout from the Lord Himself!
- The voice of the archangel!
- The sounding of the trump of God!
- The gathering of the saints unto Him!
- AND the revealing of the man of sin also known as the son of
perdition!

Before going any further…..does this sound like an event that will be a secret? Hardly!

Now Paul tells us these things SHALL not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Let's continue;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what is Paul telling us here? That the man of sin, which is also the son of perdition AND that Wicked one will be consumed when Jesus gathers the saints. Now let's confirm this;

Dan.7
[25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
[26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Above we are told of the same event; the man of sin will have his dominion taken away and it will be consumed.

Dan.8
[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Here we have the same person being spoken of with Jesus doing the same as Paul tells us in 2Thes.2, here in Dan.8 it tells us that his power was not his own. Let's confirm this in 2 Thes.2

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So this same person spoken of in Dan.8 is the same spoken of in 2 Thes.2. We are also told in Dan.8 he will stand against Jesus and will be broken without hand, just as Paul told us in 2Thes.2;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what information have we just read from God's word?

- When Jesus returns there will be the gathering of the saints!
- At the same time the man of sin also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one will be consumed and broken without hand by the Prince of princes; Jesus Christ!

Now let’s use some common sense again here to figure this all out;

If the saints are to be gathered so that they do not go through the GTP, BUT the man of sin is consumed at this same time, “…consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”, WHEN does the GTP happen? WHEN does the man of sin have time to rule and cause all to receive a mark if he is consumed at the same time the saints are gathered?

Think about it…..When did the wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition have time to cause all, both small and great, to receive a sign so that they can buy and sell? God’s word tell us he WILL do it because THAT is the GTP! But if he is consumed when Jesus returns HOW and WHEN does he have the time to rule as the scriptures state? Because when Jesus returns there will be NO time for him to rule for he will be, "...consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" and, "...shall be broken without hand." Let's confirm all of what we just read;

Matt.24
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again we have the gathering of His elect all happening AFTER the tribulation period!

And again…..if the man of sin is consumed when Jesus returns to gather the saints WHEN does the GTP happen?

So.....will the saints be here during the Tribulation period? We can only go with what thus saith the Lord!

And God’s word tells us YES….we will!


.
 
Member
The Meaning of the Second Coming.


It Is a Coming in Two Phases.



(1) When Christ Comes for His Saints in the Air. "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (II Thess. 2:1). The promise of Christ’s return of Acts 1:9-20 was given before the Rapture was revealed. Hebrews 9:28 has nothing to do with the Rapture.

(2) When Christ Comes with His Saints to Earth. "Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude 14).

(3) These Two Phases Are Vastly Different.


(a) Different in Character. "For His people" is an act of faith; "with His people" is an act of judgment.

(b) Different in Manner. One is secret, the other is a manifestation.

(c) Different in Place. "For His people" — in the air (I Thess. 4:17); "with His people" — to the earth (Zech. 14:14).

(d) Different as to Time. "For His people" occurs before the Tribulation (Jacob’s trouble); "with His people" occurs after the Tribulation (Jacob’s trouble). We are never told in Scripture to look for signs preceding His coming for His saints, but men are told to look for signs before He comes with His saints (Compare II Thess. 2:1-3 with Is. 13: 6-9).

(e) Different as to Dispensations. Coming "for His saints" occurs at the beginning of the dispensation of Tribulation; coming "with His saints" occurs at the beginning of the dispensation of the Millennium.

(f) Different as to Purpose. Coming "for His saints" fulfills His promise to gather His people (John 14:3); coming "with His saints" as a man of war, His promise to overthrow His enemies (Jude 14).

(g) Different as to Relation. "For His saints" is the adoption of the children of God; "with His saints" the time that the sons of God are manifested to the world. (Rom. 8:19,23).
 
Member
The Meaning of the Second Coming.


(d) Different as to Time. "For His people" occurs before the Tribulation (Jacob’s trouble); "with His people" occurs after the Tribulation (Jacob’s trouble). We are never told in Scripture to look for signs preceding His coming for His saints, but men are told to look for signs before He comes with His saints (Compare II Thess. 2:1-3 with Is. 13: 6-9).
Let's just look at this one;

Which verse are you referring to with "for His people" and which verse are you referring to with "with His people"...for clarification!

Thanks!
 
Member
<DIR><DIR>The Rapture of All in Christ. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind . . . as that the day of the Lord is at hand" (II Thess. 2:1, 2). The above Scripture, and the phrase, "we all shall be changed," eliminates the possibility of a partial rapture. The entire Body of Christ will be raptured (caught up); it will be a rapture, and not a rupture. The Body of Christ will be complete. No member of His Body will be left to go through the Tribulation. Some say, "How can this be?" God took Elijah up without death; He can take a million, or ten million up just as easily. The Rapture of the Church will cause a great separation. All unbelievers will be left here to go through the Tribulation. The Rapture of the Church will be the means of a great reunion. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:17). What a great word is "together"; all of our loved ones in Christ "together" once more.</DIR></DIR>
 
Member
<DIR><DIR>The Rapture of All in Christ. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind . . . as that the day of the Lord is at hand" (II Thess. 2:1, 2). The above Scripture, and the phrase, "we all shall be changed," eliminates the possibility of a partial rapture. The entire Body of Christ will be raptured (caught up);
</DIR><DIR></DIR></DIR>
Well let's now read what ELSE will happen at this same time you speak of;

Now if 2 Thes.2 is the chapter that you claim is the church being gathered BEFORE the trib-period....let's read the REST of the chapter....

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now if the church is to be taken away Paul tells us that this day SHALL not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Now let's read what ELSE happens at this gathering of the saints;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Not only will that Wicked one be revealed....GOD tells us that he will also be CONSUMED when He gathers the saints!

Now stay with me here......

If the wicked one is consumed when the saints are gathered..........WHEN does he rule?

When does he cause all to receive the sign of the beast?

After all....is this not the reason for the rapture to happen BEFORE the man of sin takes over and causes all to receive the sign of the beast?

Well how can that happen if he is CONSUMED and destroyed at the gathering of the saints?


.
 
Member
<DIR>2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: </DIR>
 
Member
<DIR>2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. </DIR><DIR>2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: </DIR>

OOOOOk........! What is it you are attempting to say here?

.
 
Member
<DIR><DIR>The Rapture of All in Christ. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind . . . as that the day of the Lord is at hand" (II Thess. 2:1, 2). The above Scripture, and the phrase, "we all shall be changed," eliminates the possibility of a partial rapture. The entire Body of Christ will be raptured (caught up); it will be a rapture, and not a rupture. The Body of Christ will be complete. No member of His Body will be left to go through the Tribulation. Some say, "How can this be?" God took Elijah up without death; He can take a million, or ten million up just as easily. The Rapture of the Church will cause a great separation. All unbelievers will be left here to go through the Tribulation. The Rapture of the Church will be the means of a great reunion. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:17). What a great word is "together"; all of our loved ones in Christ "together" once more.</DIR></DIR>

Now the purpose of this event above is to remove the church from this earth so as not to have to go through the tribulation period..is that correct?

Well if we continue to read futher down in the chapter God's word states the following will ALSO take place when the church is gathered;

2 Thes.2
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now if this man of sin is destroyed at the sametime as the saints are gathered.....why gather the church at all?

If the man of sin is destroyed at the same time as the rapture when does the man of sin get to rule and cause all both small and great to recceive a mark?

If the man of sin is destroyed at the same time as the rapture when does the great tribulation period happen?

Not only are we told that the man of sin will be destroyed when the church is gathered....we are also told that when he is destroyed it will be with the BRIGHTNESS of Jesus coming! So we will be able to see a bright light upon Jesus arrival.

Well this goes hand in hand with what Jesus told us in the 24th chap. of Matt.;

[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And when does God tell us this event will happen? Let's read.....

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And what will He do at this sametime?

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now wait a minute...this sounds just like what Paul told us in 2 Thes.2;

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

We got the same gathering..the same brightness of light. Sounds like the same event! Unless...of course BOTH of these events are going to happen TWICE!!!


.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top