Where in the Bible does it teach the imminent return of Christ?
Loyal
Actually what I read things must happen before his return, like the falling away, and the man of lawlessnes being reveled the gospel must be preached to all nations.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
seems to me there are at least a couple of things that must happen before his return, according to the above scripture.
Loyal
And how about "christ4ever" thread "before the wrath"?
Loyal
Loyal
What do you mean, did not you see the whole video?
Loyal
yes I watched it, it teaches the day of the lord could happen at any time, I can show you scripture as above that is not the case certain events must happen before the day of the lord. If you have scripture showing Jesus can return at any time is what I am looking for in this thread. As I have posted scripture clearly saying certain events must happen before the day of the lord, I can post some scripture to drive the point further.
Loyal
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Revelation 6:12
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
All three talking of the same event it appears the day of the lord, and all three saying something has to happen first, and it seems to come after the mid point of tribulation when the six seal is open
The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
Revelation 6:12
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
All three talking of the same event it appears the day of the lord, and all three saying something has to happen first, and it seems to come after the mid point of tribulation when the six seal is open
Loyal
I'm actually in agreement with the point you make here, but being devil's advocate...
Mat 24:36; "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mat 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:43; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Mat 24:44; "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Luk 12:35; "Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.
Luk 12:36; "Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
Luk 12:37; "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
Luk 12:38; "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
Luk 12:39; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Luk 12:40; "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."
Rev 3:3; 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Mat 24:36; "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mat 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:43; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Mat 24:44; "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Luk 12:35; "Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.
Luk 12:36; "Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
Luk 12:37; "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them.
Luk 12:38; "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
Luk 12:39; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Luk 12:40; "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."
Rev 3:3; 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Loyal
I think the key in those versus is the hour may not be known, but certainly the season will be know from the signs of the times, as Paul says we who are in the light and not in darkness will not be surprised.
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
Loyal
1 Thessalonians 4:13–18
The Coming of the Lord
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
a lot of pre trib people think this scripture suggest a imminent return of Christ
Titus 2:13
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
The Coming of the Lord
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
a lot of pre trib people think this scripture suggest a imminent return of Christ
Titus 2:13
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
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Active
Hi Dave. I use these three arguments to support a rapture.
1. Plagues in revelations. Many scriptures of God's plagues on the earth and how after they hit the inhabitants, they repent not. A Christian will repent. Meaning no Christians are on earth for His plagues. The plagues hit after 3.5 years into the tribulation.
2. The rapture of the Holy Spirit. The restrainer. 2 Thess 2:6-8 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.
Jesus made it crystal clear that He is leaving the Holy Spirit with us so that we will not be alone. It is utterly illogical to have a belief that we will be alone and the Holy Spirit will be raptured without us.
3. Matt 24 explains in amazing detail how the beast will reveal himself and Christians will endure suffering. It then goes on to say the following:
Matt 24:36-40 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Loyal
This could mean no "new" Christians. The ones that are still here have repented.
But also the Bible says those with the seal of God, won't be affected by the plagues. ( Rev 9:4; ) so who are these people with the seal of God on their foreheads during the tribulation?
There is nothing that says this is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is here now, and evil people are here now. Besides you have the order of events here.
The rapture won't happen until "after" the man of lawlessness is revealed. ( 2 Thess 2:3; ) the man of lawlessness is revealed first. So if the Holy Spirit leaves so the man of lawlessness can appear, Christians are without the Holy Spirit
until the rapture. Also we know there will Christians come out of the tribulation ( Rev 7:14; ) so how are they able to be Christians without the Holy Spirit?
In Matt 24, it says the rapture will happen"after" the tribulation of those days. ( Matt 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; )
Loyal
I know most people thing the Jewish are the ones with the seals being the famous 144,000 during tribulation. However since the book of revelations is a figurative book I am starting to think the 144,000 are anyone who has accepted Christ not necessarily just ethnic Jews, because after all we all grafted into Israel when sealed.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Loyal
Even if that's true.. aren't they Christians? (during the tribulation).
But I'm not convinced.
Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all the tribes, race, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Now I suppose Jews could be dispersed to every nation, and speak every language. But they couldn't be every race. Only one race is Jewish.
Also 144,000 is a countable number. But this multitude appears to be much larger.
Active
There are many who come to Jesus / God in the tribulation. These are people that are sealed. A Christian does not need a '''seal''' on the forehead. They are already sealed by the blood of Jesus.
You come to the view you do because you don't believe in OSAS. You need to better grasp what a Christian is
.The anti-christ cannot have his way if the Holy Spirit is here, fact. The scripture I gave says that. The restrainer can only be God. Nobody else can restrain the anti-christ, fact.
I dont believe Christians will be without the Holy Spirit. This verse is for me confirmation that the rapture will happen before the anti-christ reveals himself in the temple.
There is a suffering we will endure before this happens. Humans vs humans. A time when many come claiming to be Jesus. Matt 24:4-11. Note how persecution comes before and during the time false prophets reveal themselves. When the anti-christ reveals himself, nobody else will come and claim to be Jesus, fact.
Many will come to Jesus in the tribulation. These are tribulation saints as mentioned in Rev 6:9-11. 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. Note they were ''given'' a white robe. This ties in with Matt 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. Christians are already ''saved''. There is no further need to ''test'' them.
No, disagree. The verses you quoting are separate to those of the rapture. For example in verse 30 we see that '''all'' see Jesus. Matt 24:30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory .
The second coming of Jesus is also a day that will not surprise anyone. All just need add seven years onto the day the anti-christ reveals himself.
These scriptures speak to a different event to the second coming Matt 24:36-41: 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Loyal
this is flat out wrong, on both accounts. the second coming of the Lord will surprise those that do not know Jesus, he will come like a thief at night.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (this is for non believers not for believers)
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
Matthew 24:36
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. (we may know the season not the day or hour)
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (the man of lawlessness does not come until midway through tribulation at the great tribulation wich is 3.5 years)
Revelation 13:5
And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
Loyal
do you have scripture for this, because the there is no one who repents in revelation, and the bible teaches a great falling away at end times a actual rebellion against God
Active
John 14:3 / John 14:28.